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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

LuffyRuffy46307 said:
How would you explain Goku and Vegeta fighting with all their might in the time room and even mentioning that it wouldn't break
Click to expand...

To me this doesn't contradict the idea that Time Chambers are Earth-sized, it just means they are Earth-sized structures with durability superior to 3 2-C power. If we can get the manga upgraded to 6 2-C from the Broly movie then you could argue it has durability superior to 6 2-C power from enduring Merus and Goku training for months.

The main thing this means would be that Time Chambers should be treated as structures superior to a Macrocosm in durability. So put it this way, if you can blow up a Time Chamber, that should automatically make you 3 2-C. If you can destroy 12 Time Chambers that should be a feat superior to destroying the 12 Macrocosms.

We know there are 3 Time Chambers in Universe 7 (Earth, Merus and Freeza) so if we ever get a statement of busting the Macrocosm and "the dimensions outside of the universe" that should automatically be considered a 12 2-C feat (by destroying the Macrocosm as well as the 3 confirmed Time Chambers when each Time Chamber has durability superior to the macrocosm).

Macrocosm = 3x Universal (Living World, Afterlife, World of Kais)
Time Chamber = At least 3x Universal
Macrocosm + Time Chamber (Earth) + Time Chamber (Merus) + Time Chamber (Freeza) = At least 12x Universal
 
CryoTheMayo said:
To me this doesn't contradict the idea that Time Chambers are Earth-sized, it just means they are Earth-sized structures with durability superior to 3 2-C power. If we can get the manga upgraded to 6 2-C from the Broly movie then you could argue it has durability superior to 6 2-C power from enduring Merus and Goku training for months.

The main thing this means would be that Time Chambers should be treated as structures superior to a Macrocosm in durability. So put it this way, if you can blow up a Time Chamber, that should automatically make you 3 2-C. If you can destroy 12 Time Chambers that should be a feat superior to destroying the 12 Macrocosms.

We know there are 3 Time Chambers in Universe 7 (Earth, Merus and Freeza) so if we ever get a statement of busting the Macrocosm and "the dimensions outside of the universe" that should automatically be considered a 12 2-C feat (by destroying the Macrocosm as well as the 3 confirmed Time Chambers when each Time Chamber has durability superior to the macrocosm).

Macrocosm = 3x Universal (Living World, Afterlife, World of Kais)
Time Chamber = At least 3x Universal
Macrocosm + Time Chamber (Earth) + Time Chamber (Merus) + Time Chamber (Freeza) = At least 12x Universal
Click to expand...
That sounds good, when are we going to do it?
 
CryoTheMayo said:
To me this doesn't contradict the idea that Time Chambers are Earth-sized, it just means they are Earth-sized structures with durability superior to 3 2-C power. If we can get the manga upgraded to 6 2-C from the Broly movie then you could argue it has durability superior to 6 2-C power from enduring Merus and Goku training for months.

The main thing this means would be that Time Chambers should be treated as structures superior to a Macrocosm in durability. So put it this way, if you can blow up a Time Chamber, that should automatically make you 3 2-C. If you can destroy 12 Time Chambers that should be a feat superior to destroying the 12 Macrocosms.

We know there are 3 Time Chambers in Universe 7 (Earth, Merus and Freeza) so if we ever get a statement of busting the Macrocosm and "the dimensions outside of the universe" that should automatically be considered a 12 2-C feat (by destroying the Macrocosm as well as the 3 confirmed Time Chambers when each Time Chamber has durability superior to the macrocosm).

Macrocosm = 3x Universal (Living World, Afterlife, World of Kais)
Time Chamber = At least 3x Universal
Macrocosm + Time Chamber (Earth) + Time Chamber (Merus) + Time Chamber (Freeza) = At least 12x Universal
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure that's not how it works it could have 3x Universal durability, but currently how we rate Universe is because of spatial axis's that are a unquantified distance. You could at most (though I could be wrong) argue destroying anyone of these time chambers is one more additional Low 2-C feat (on top of every other Low 2-C structures) as it'd fulfill the criteria of the distance (which is the important part here) and also having a above 2-C durability (that act in place of a universal size even though it doesn't have it)
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
That sounds good, when are we going to do it?
Click to expand...
Do what? The Time Chambers having Macrocosm+ durability? No point. No one has actually destroyed on onscreen. I guess there is the implication Vegeta did it in the DBS anime but that doesn't really do anything for him. You could argue it expands Zeno's power a bit but to Low 1-C an extra few Macrocosm-level structures is meaningless.

If you mean upgrading the manga to 6 2-C I'm not looking to do that anytime soon.

Huesito88 said:
I'm pretty sure that's not how it works it could have 3x Universal durability, but currently how we rate Universe is because of spatial axis's that are a unquantified distance. You could at most (though I could be wrong) argue destroying anyone of these time chambers is one more additional Low 2-C feat (on top of every other Low 2-C structures) as it'd fulfill the criteria of the distance (which is the important part here) and also having a above 2-C durability (that act in place of a universal size even though it doesn't have it)
Click to expand...
The Time Chambers exist outside of the universe an unquantifiable distance away, just like any other universe. If you take the Subspace statements into account then that reinforces that idea. The only thing restricting the idea is that the Time Chambers themselves are planet-sized but I frankly don't see the issue. Your power still has to cross unquantifiable distances between dimensions to bust structures that have universal+ durability.

It doesn't really matter what I think though. It depends on how the VS Wiki standards would take it.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Do what? The Time Chambers having Macrocosm+ durability? No point. No one has actually destroyed on onscreen. I guess there is the implication Vegeta did it in the DBS anime but that doesn't really do anything for him. You could argue it expands Zeno's power a bit but to Low 1-C an extra few Macrocosm-level structures is meaningless.

If you mean upgrading the manga to 6 2-C I'm not looking to do that anytime soon.


The Time Chambers exist outside of the universe an unquantifiable distance away, just like any other universe. If you take the Subspace statements into account then that reinforces that idea. The only thing restricting the idea is that the Time Chambers themselves are planet-sized but I frankly don't see the issue. Your power still has to cross unquantifiable distances between dimensions to bust structures that have universal+ durability.

It doesn't really matter what I think though. It depends on how the VS Wiki standards would take it.
Click to expand...
"Your power still has to cross unquantifiable distances between dimensions to bust structures that have universal+ durability. "

Not disputing that just your idea of it counting as 3x Universe rather than just one additional universe per chamber. Though I'm more confident on my take, though still not completely, on if it would get accepted in a thread.
 
Huesito88 said:
"Your power still has to cross unquantifiable distances between dimensions to bust structures that have universal+ durability. "

Not disputing that just your idea of it counting as 3x Universe rather than just one additional universe per chamber. Though I'm more confident on my take, though still not completely, on if it would get accepted in a thread.
Click to expand...
I suppose I see your idea there. Still, that can be used to upgrade the manga to 6 2-C if we ever get a feat or statement of threatening dimensions 'outside of the universe'. 9 2-C if we could get the manga to 6 2-C from the Broly movie.

Of course for all we know it will be revealed there are like thousands of Time Chambers which would suddenly make destroying all of them a 2-B feat.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
To me this doesn't contradict the idea that Time Chambers are Earth-sized, it just means they are Earth-sized structures with durability superior to 3 2-C power. If we can get the manga upgraded to 6 2-C from the Broly movie then you could argue it has durability superior to 6 2-C power from enduring Merus and Goku training for months.

The main thing this means would be that Time Chambers should be treated as structures superior to a Macrocosm in durability. So put it this way, if you can blow up a Time Chamber, that should automatically make you 3 2-C. If you can destroy 12 Time Chambers that should be a feat superior to destroying the 12 Macrocosms.

We know there are 3 Time Chambers in Universe 7 (Earth, Merus and Freeza) so if we ever get a statement of busting the Macrocosm and "the dimensions outside of the universe" that should automatically be considered a 12 2-C feat (by destroying the Macrocosm as well as the 3 confirmed Time Chambers when each Time Chamber has durability superior to the macrocosm).

Macrocosm = 3x Universal (Living World, Afterlife, World of Kais)
Time Chamber = At least 3x Universal
Macrocosm + Time Chamber (Earth) + Time Chamber (Merus) + Time Chamber (Freeza) = At least 12x Universal
Click to expand...
I highly doubt it since the RoSaT is a place between dimensions of the macrocosm inside the subspace. It’s most likely referring to how they can let loose without destroying or putting anyone in danger. Such as when they start to affect the terrain around them when they fight on earth. I’m pretty sure in the Broly movie it’s stated that Vegeta and Goku can let loose and fight as hard and however many times they wanted because they were like in an area with no people, and they were fighting in the water. So I would take this statement like the one in the Broly Movie.
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
I highly doubt it since the RoSaT is a place between dimensions of the macrocosm inside the subspace. It’s most likely referring to how they can let loose without destroying or putting anyone in danger. Such as when they start to affect the terrain around them when they fight on earth. I’m pretty sure in the Broly movie it’s stated that Vegeta and Goku can let loose and fight as hard and however many times they wanted because they were like in an area with no people, and they were fighting in the water. So I would take this statement like the one in the Broly Movie.
Click to expand...
I'm too lazy to check so I'm going to assume you're correct. In which case, yes the statement comes into question.
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
I briefly found it too lazy to check Japanese version though but here 1:13
Click to expand...

I don't personally think that's equivalent to Goku sparring in Blue and saying "this place isn't gonna break if we go on a rampage". If it were Goku saying it himself, instead of Bulma, I'd consider it a much better contradiction of the manga statement.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
People think that by lacking a concept it means superior, although that's not true.
Click to expand...
What? Bro that's so wrong. If there are concepts of space and time in a certain place, then that place is bounded by dimensionality in nature, even if it's 0D. On the other hand having no concepts at all it means that existence of dimensions in nature is impossible, making the realm in question abstract. If you're able to destroy something that is abstract by your raw AP then that's outerversal.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
It’s stated that since stuff like Kai Kai and instant transmission are outside the subspace’s power, Goku would be vaguely left to “wander in between dimensions forever.” That statement is honestly very loaded, and can be interpreted a number of ways.

1. You could wander forever and be stuck interacting with dimension after dimension (space-times in this context). That could make the Macrocosm 2-A.

2. Wandering “between dimensions” could refer to how the Sugoroku space is an area between space-times, and you could wander through it forever. In other words, infinite Sugoroku space (though I think it’s stated to be earth-sized in the Chouzenshuu, so that may be contradictory).

3. If “wandering between dimensions forever” means the dimensions are spaced apart infinitely, that could make the Macrocosm Low 1-C via the 5th axis specifically being infinite.

I was honestly thinking of doing a huge upgrade using that statement, but it’s too open-ended to be accepted for any concrete scaling.
Click to expand...
COOK
I think 2-A macrocosms would be fire, what would that do for everyone if that was the case?
 
Killerdrone123 said:
Oh my bad then
Click to expand...


THE FIRST IMAGES OF THE CHARACTERS

HERE ARE THE FIRST IMAGES MADE BY MASTER TORIYAMA AND THE DRAWING DESIGNERS BEFORE THE TRANSMISSION OF DRAGON BALL GT SOME ARE SHOWN TO THE PUBLIC FOR THE FIRST TIME

THE IMAGE BOARDS CREATED BY

AKIRA TORIYAMA

WHAT ARE IMAGE PANELS?

THESE ARE THE ILLUSTRATIONS THAT INDICATE THE ATMOSPHERE OF THE STORY CREATED BEFORE TRANSMISSION! THESE IMAGE PANELS CREATED BY MASTER TORIYAMA ARE THE BASIS OF THE GTI WORLD



FOR THE FIRST TIME, ILLUSTRATIONS CREATED BY MASTER AKIRA TORIYAMA AND TOEI DESIGNERS ARE SHOWN TO THE PUBLIC! PLUS, WE ALSO PRESENT SOME BEHIND THE SCENES! WE WILL SURPRISE YOU!

Sorry, I only have the guide in the Portuguese version, if anyone wants to look for the name it is: Dragon Ball GT Perfect Files
 
CryoTheMayo said:
To me this doesn't contradict the idea that Time Chambers are Earth-sized, it just means they are Earth-sized structures with durability superior to 3 2-C power. If we can get the manga upgraded to 6 2-C from the Broly movie then you could argue it has durability superior to 6 2-C power from enduring Merus and Goku training for months.

The main thing this means would be that Time Chambers should be treated as structures superior to a Macrocosm in durability. So put it this way, if you can blow up a Time Chamber, that should automatically make you 3 2-C. If you can destroy 12 Time Chambers that should be a feat superior to destroying the 12 Macrocosms.

We know there are 3 Time Chambers in Universe 7 (Earth, Merus and Freeza) so if we ever get a statement of busting the Macrocosm and "the dimensions outside of the universe" that should automatically be considered a 12 2-C feat (by destroying the Macrocosm as well as the 3 confirmed Time Chambers when each Time Chamber has durability superior to the macrocosm).

Macrocosm = 3x Universal (Living World, Afterlife, World of Kais)
Time Chamber = At least 3x Universal
Macrocosm + Time Chamber (Earth) + Time Chamber (Merus) + Time Chamber (Freeza) = At least 12x Universal
Click to expand...
My problem is how circular this kind of is.

Because the Macrocosm CONTAINS the HTC as a Subspace. When the Macrocosm was being destroyed, the HTC was also being threatened because it is contained within the Universe.

So basically, going by both logics

The Subspaces > The Macrocosm (which includes the Subspaces {they aren’t counted towards Uni because they’re Earth sized despite being full on space time continuums—Which logically doesn’t make sense because the size of the space doesn’t affect the length of its time/snapshots/it being a full continuum, but regardless}), which then amps the Macrocosm, (as they exist inside it), and then the Subspaces are higher than Macrocosm, so they go up, and then…(continue ad Infinitum).

In no way can the Subspaces be above the Macrocosm, and if it is then that raises a lot of questions about the Clash at BoG.
 
RedReaper said:
Because the Macrocosm CONTAINS the HTC as a Subspace. When the Macrocosm was being destroyed, the HTC was also being threatened because it is contained within the Universe.
Click to expand...
The Time Chambers explicitly exist outside of Universe 7. That's why Freeza was exempt from Gas or Granolah's wishes. The HTC was also never stated to be threatened by the destruction of the macrocosm, not to my recollection.
RedReaper said:
The Subspaces > The Macrocosm (which includes the Subspaces {they aren’t counted towards Uni because they’re Earth sized despite being full on space time continuums—Which logically doesn’t make sense because the size of the space doesn’t affect the length of its time/snapshots/it being a full continuum, but regardless}), which then amps the Macrocosm, (as they exist inside it), and then the Subspaces are higher than Macrocosm, so they go up, and then…(continue ad Infinitum).

In no way can the Subspaces be above the Macrocosm, and if it is then that raises a lot of questions about the Clash at BoG.
Click to expand...
Subspace isn't in the Macrocosm. It's stated to exist outside of the diagram of the macrocosm in guidebooks.

"Also, there are subspaces that don't belong anywhere in the world depicted in [Fig.1].Figure 1 (図1) refers to the standard diagram of the Macrocosm."

"It is a different dimensional world that does not belong to any part of the world, and includes the "Room of Spirit and Time" in the Temple of God and the interdimensional "Sugoroku Space". The concept of time is different in the "Room of Spirit and Time," and a year here corresponds to one day in the outside world. There are no living creatures that inhabit this room."
 
CryoTheMayo said:
The Time Chambers explicitly exist outside of Universe 7. That's why Freeza was exempt from Gas or Granolah's wishes. The HTC was also never stated to be threatened by the destruction of the macrocosm, not to my recollection.

Subspace isn't in the Macrocosm. It's stated to exist outside of the diagram of the macrocosm in guidebooks.

"Also, there are subspaces that don't belong anywhere in the world depicted in [Fig.1].Figure 1 (図1) refers to the standard diagram of the Macrocosm."

"It is a different dimensional world that does not belong to any part of the world, and includes the "Room of Spirit and Time" in the Temple of God and the interdimensional "Sugoroku Space". The concept of time is different in the "Room of Spirit and Time," and a year here corresponds to one day in the outside world. There are no living creatures that inhabit this room."
Click to expand...
One thing I have to remind you guys is that you are using guides before Dragon Ball super.

And the “macrocosm” was formerly the living universe + life after death.

The kaioshin realm was not counted as part of the macrocosm, and the realm is even referred to as being 1/10 of the macrocosm.

But after the super, the macrocosm is now universe 7, which includes everything. So the ancient guides speaking outside the macrocosm (like the kaioshin realm) does not mean outside universe 7.

The frieza question depends on whether it's a **** from the living universe or universe 7.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
One thing I have to remind you guys is that you are using guides before Dragon Ball super.

And the “macrocosm” was formerly the living universe + life after death.

The kaioshin realm was not counted as part of the macrocosm, and the realm is even referred to as being 1/10 of the macrocosm.

But after the super, the macrocosm is now universe 7, which includes everything. So the ancient guides speaking outside the macrocosm (like the kaioshin realm) does not mean outside universe 7.
Click to expand...
Can you cite where it was retconned that the Kaioshin Realm is now part of the macrocosm? Because as far as I know it's still depicted as sitting outside of it.
Phsccarvalho said:
The frieza question depends on whether it's a **** from the living universe or universe 7.
Click to expand...
Not really something that can be proved right now either way. But the wish alone does bring the idea of Time Chambers being part of the macrocosm into question.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Can you cite where it was retconned that the Kaioshin Realm is now part of the macrocosm? Because as far as I know it's still depicted as sitting outside of it.
Click to expand...
I'm talking about macrocosm universe 7, not macrocosm which is the mortal universe + life after death.

An old guide/databook says that x thing is outside the macrocosm (which is the mortal universe + life after death) this does not mean that it is outside the universe 7

CryoTheMayo said:
Not really something that can be proved right now either way. But the wish alone does bring the idea of Time Chambers being part of the macrocosm into question.
Click to expand...
It depends on an analysis to see if ever in DBS they used universe to refer to the mortal universe/living world. If at no point did they do this, and in DBS they always used universe for the entire universe (universe 7, 6 etc) then it is probably outside of universe 7.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
I'm talking about macrocosm universe 7, not macrocosm which is the mortal universe + life after death.

An old guide/databook says that x thing is outside the macrocosm (which is the mortal universe + life after death) this does not mean that it is outside the universe 7
Click to expand...
Okay, can you cite where the Kaioshin Realm is considered part of Universe 7 then? Because the closest thing I can think of is the Kaioshin Realm being stated to be a satellite world that observes the macrocosm. And I can easily see a Kaioshin Realm existing for each macrocosm while still not being part of their Universe (7, 11, 6, whatever)

You don't need to prove it to me, I just want to know where exactly that was accepted on the wiki so I can understand the reasoning better.
Phsccarvalho said:
It depends on an analysis to see if ever in DBS they used universe to refer to the mortal universe/living world. If at no point did they do this, and in DBS they always used universe for the entire universe (universe 7, 6 etc) then it is probably outside of universe 7.
Click to expand...
Well I'm definitely not doing that right now but I'm sure someone already knows the answer.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Okay, can you cite where the Kaioshin Realm is considered part of Universe 7 then? Because the closest thing I can think of is the Kaioshin Realm being stated to be a satellite world that observes the macrocosm. And I can easily see a Kaioshin Realm existing for each macrocosm while still not being part of the complete 'Universe 7 macrocosm'

You don't need to prove it to me, I just want to know where exactly that was accepted on the wiki so I can understand the reasoning better.
Click to expand...
I think you don't understand.

There are two types of macrocosms.

What is mentioned in old databooks before DBS, which is the living world + life after death.

And the macrocosm that are the universes, such as universe 7, 6, etc.

The kaioshin realm is outside the first macrocosm, but is still within the macrocosm of the universe.
 
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