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All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

CryoTheMayo said:
To me this doesn't contradict the idea that Time Chambers are Earth-sized, it just means they are Earth-sized structures with durability superior to 3 2-C power. If we can get the manga upgraded to 6 2-C from the Broly movie then you could argue it has durability superior to 6 2-C power from enduring Merus and Goku training for months.

The main thing this means would be that Time Chambers should be treated as structures superior to a Macrocosm in durability. So put it this way, if you can blow up a Time Chamber, that should automatically make you 3 2-C. If you can destroy 12 Time Chambers that should be a feat superior to destroying the 12 Macrocosms.

We know there are 3 Time Chambers in Universe 7 (Earth, Merus and Freeza) so if we ever get a statement of busting the Macrocosm and "the dimensions outside of the universe" that should automatically be considered a 12 2-C feat (by destroying the Macrocosm as well as the 3 confirmed Time Chambers when each Time Chamber has durability superior to the macrocosm).

Macrocosm = 3x Universal (Living World, Afterlife, World of Kais)
Time Chamber = At least 3x Universal
Macrocosm + Time Chamber (Earth) + Time Chamber (Merus) + Time Chamber (Freeza) = At least 12x Universal
Click to expand...
My problem is how circular this kind of is.

Because the Macrocosm CONTAINS the HTC as a Subspace. When the Macrocosm was being destroyed, the HTC was also being threatened because it is contained within the Universe.

So basically, going by both logics

The Subspaces > The Macrocosm (which includes the Subspaces {they aren’t counted towards Uni because they’re Earth sized despite being full on space time continuums—Which logically doesn’t make sense because the size of the space doesn’t affect the length of its time/snapshots/it being a full continuum, but regardless}), which then amps the Macrocosm, (as they exist inside it), and then the Subspaces are higher than Macrocosm, so they go up, and then…(continue ad Infinitum).

In no way can the Subspaces be above the Macrocosm, and if it is then that raises a lot of questions about the Clash at BoG.
 
RedReaper said:
Because the Macrocosm CONTAINS the HTC as a Subspace. When the Macrocosm was being destroyed, the HTC was also being threatened because it is contained within the Universe.
Click to expand...
The Time Chambers explicitly exist outside of Universe 7. That's why Freeza was exempt from Gas or Granolah's wishes. The HTC was also never stated to be threatened by the destruction of the macrocosm, not to my recollection.
RedReaper said:
The Subspaces > The Macrocosm (which includes the Subspaces {they aren’t counted towards Uni because they’re Earth sized despite being full on space time continuums—Which logically doesn’t make sense because the size of the space doesn’t affect the length of its time/snapshots/it being a full continuum, but regardless}), which then amps the Macrocosm, (as they exist inside it), and then the Subspaces are higher than Macrocosm, so they go up, and then…(continue ad Infinitum).

In no way can the Subspaces be above the Macrocosm, and if it is then that raises a lot of questions about the Clash at BoG.
Click to expand...
Subspace isn't in the Macrocosm. It's stated to exist outside of the diagram of the macrocosm in guidebooks.

"Also, there are subspaces that don't belong anywhere in the world depicted in [Fig.1].Figure 1 (図1) refers to the standard diagram of the Macrocosm."

"It is a different dimensional world that does not belong to any part of the world, and includes the "Room of Spirit and Time" in the Temple of God and the interdimensional "Sugoroku Space". The concept of time is different in the "Room of Spirit and Time," and a year here corresponds to one day in the outside world. There are no living creatures that inhabit this room."
 
CryoTheMayo said:
The Time Chambers explicitly exist outside of Universe 7. That's why Freeza was exempt from Gas or Granolah's wishes. The HTC was also never stated to be threatened by the destruction of the macrocosm, not to my recollection.

Subspace isn't in the Macrocosm. It's stated to exist outside of the diagram of the macrocosm in guidebooks.

"Also, there are subspaces that don't belong anywhere in the world depicted in [Fig.1].Figure 1 (図1) refers to the standard diagram of the Macrocosm."

"It is a different dimensional world that does not belong to any part of the world, and includes the "Room of Spirit and Time" in the Temple of God and the interdimensional "Sugoroku Space". The concept of time is different in the "Room of Spirit and Time," and a year here corresponds to one day in the outside world. There are no living creatures that inhabit this room."
Click to expand...
One thing I have to remind you guys is that you are using guides before Dragon Ball super.

And the “macrocosm” was formerly the living universe + life after death.

The kaioshin realm was not counted as part of the macrocosm, and the realm is even referred to as being 1/10 of the macrocosm.

But after the super, the macrocosm is now universe 7, which includes everything. So the ancient guides speaking outside the macrocosm (like the kaioshin realm) does not mean outside universe 7.

The frieza question depends on whether it's a **** from the living universe or universe 7.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
One thing I have to remind you guys is that you are using guides before Dragon Ball super.

And the “macrocosm” was formerly the living universe + life after death.

The kaioshin realm was not counted as part of the macrocosm, and the realm is even referred to as being 1/10 of the macrocosm.

But after the super, the macrocosm is now universe 7, which includes everything. So the ancient guides speaking outside the macrocosm (like the kaioshin realm) does not mean outside universe 7.
Click to expand...
Can you cite where it was retconned that the Kaioshin Realm is now part of the macrocosm? Because as far as I know it's still depicted as sitting outside of it.
Phsccarvalho said:
The frieza question depends on whether it's a **** from the living universe or universe 7.
Click to expand...
Not really something that can be proved right now either way. But the wish alone does bring the idea of Time Chambers being part of the macrocosm into question.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Can you cite where it was retconned that the Kaioshin Realm is now part of the macrocosm? Because as far as I know it's still depicted as sitting outside of it.
Click to expand...
I'm talking about macrocosm universe 7, not macrocosm which is the mortal universe + life after death.

An old guide/databook says that x thing is outside the macrocosm (which is the mortal universe + life after death) this does not mean that it is outside the universe 7

CryoTheMayo said:
Not really something that can be proved right now either way. But the wish alone does bring the idea of Time Chambers being part of the macrocosm into question.
Click to expand...
It depends on an analysis to see if ever in DBS they used universe to refer to the mortal universe/living world. If at no point did they do this, and in DBS they always used universe for the entire universe (universe 7, 6 etc) then it is probably outside of universe 7.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
I'm talking about macrocosm universe 7, not macrocosm which is the mortal universe + life after death.

An old guide/databook says that x thing is outside the macrocosm (which is the mortal universe + life after death) this does not mean that it is outside the universe 7
Click to expand...
Okay, can you cite where the Kaioshin Realm is considered part of Universe 7 then? Because the closest thing I can think of is the Kaioshin Realm being stated to be a satellite world that observes the macrocosm. And I can easily see a Kaioshin Realm existing for each macrocosm while still not being part of their Universe (7, 11, 6, whatever)

You don't need to prove it to me, I just want to know where exactly that was accepted on the wiki so I can understand the reasoning better.
Phsccarvalho said:
It depends on an analysis to see if ever in DBS they used universe to refer to the mortal universe/living world. If at no point did they do this, and in DBS they always used universe for the entire universe (universe 7, 6 etc) then it is probably outside of universe 7.
Click to expand...
Well I'm definitely not doing that right now but I'm sure someone already knows the answer.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Okay, can you cite where the Kaioshin Realm is considered part of Universe 7 then? Because the closest thing I can think of is the Kaioshin Realm being stated to be a satellite world that observes the macrocosm. And I can easily see a Kaioshin Realm existing for each macrocosm while still not being part of the complete 'Universe 7 macrocosm'

You don't need to prove it to me, I just want to know where exactly that was accepted on the wiki so I can understand the reasoning better.
Click to expand...
I think you don't understand.

There are two types of macrocosms.

What is mentioned in old databooks before DBS, which is the living world + life after death.

And the macrocosm that are the universes, such as universe 7, 6, etc.

The kaioshin realm is outside the first macrocosm, but is still within the macrocosm of the universe.
 
Ok if it helps let me clear it what he is saying

Macrocosm- living universe+afterlife

Uni 7- living universe+afterlife+kaioshin realm
 
I wonder if we will ever see more characters from the games in the canon.

Whereas we had Vomi who first came in the games and then came to canon.

This even makes me question whether there is a way to make an argument for whether or not you can use information and descriptions from games, like the one in Kakarot, because of little things that became canon later.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
I think you don't understand.

There are two types of macrocosms.

What is mentioned in old databooks before DBS, which is the living world + life after death.

And the macrocosm that are the universes, such as universe 7, 6, etc.

The kaioshin realm is outside the first macrocosm, but is still within the macrocosm of the universe.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's what I said. I referred to Universe 7 as the macrocosm (including the Kaioshin Realm) and used 'macrocosm' to refer to the Living World + Afterlife. I'm just inquiring about where it came from and where it was accepted as such.

In the image you cited (which refers to the Kaioshin Realm of Universe 10 as...part of Universe 10) it shows there is a spatio-temporal separation from the Afterlife + Living World and the Kaioshin Realm. Goku entered Sugoroku Space from Kibito Kai dropping him mid-teleport between the Afterlife + Living World and Kaioshin Realm.

In other words the Time Chambers still wouldn't be contained in Universe 7 regardless. There is a gap between the Living World + Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm. Outside of their structure as 'Universe 7'. And that gap is where the Subspace is located.

Put it this way, are we presuming the entire black void behind Universe 10 in that page is the Subspace in Universe 10? And that it counts as part of Universe 10?
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Yes, that's what I said. I referred to Universe 7 as the macrocosm (including the Kaioshin Realm) and used 'macrocosm' to refer to the Living World + Afterlife. I'm just inquiring about where it came from and where it was accepted as such.

In the image you cited (which refers to the Kaioshin Realm of Universe 10 as...part of Universe 10) it shows there is a spatio-temporal separation from the Afterlife + Living World and the Kaioshin Realm. Goku entered Sugoroku Space from Kibito Kai dropping him mid-teleport between the Afterlife + Living World and Kaioshin Realm.

In other words the Time Chambers still wouldn't be contained in Universe 7 regardless. There is a gap between the Living World + Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm. Outside of their structure as 'Universe 7'. And that gap is where the Subspace is located.

Put it this way, are we presuming the entire black void behind Universe 10 in that page is the Subspace in Universe 10? And that it counts as part of Universe 10?
Click to expand...
Everything you are seeing in that image of universe 10, is inside another "Bubble" which would be that of the Universes.

As shown here and here.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
Everything you are seeing in that image of universe 10, is inside another "Bubble" which would be that of the Universes.

As shown here and here.
Click to expand...
Alright so to iterate my logic/understanding here:
  • According to older guidebooks, Subspace is not connected to the Living World or Afterlife (via the original definition of 'macrocosm')
  • There is no indication that it's connected to the Kaioshin Realm
  • Sugoroku Space and the Time Chambers exist in Subspace
  • We know it can be reached by being dropped mid-teleport from the Living World to Kaioshin Realm
  • From Freeza we can tell that the Time Chamber is not considered as part of the 'universe' (whether that means the Living World or Universe 7 itself we can't say)
And the possible structure for universes that I'm seeing here is roughly:
Universe Bubble (Universe (Subspace, Kaioshin Realm, Living World + Afterlife))

So the two interpretations are:
  1. The Subspace is not part of Universe 7 because it has no connection to the Afterlife or Living World and no known connection to the Kaioshin Realm. Goku arrived in Sugoroku Space from Kibito Kai dropping him mid-teleport from the Living World to Kaioshin Realm and Freeza being in a Time Chamber exempted him from the 'strongest in the universe' wish.
  2. Universe 7 is actually much larger than we can quantify because it contains the Subspace in addition to the Living World + Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm.
 
The subspace is always stated to be between dimensions in guides; in the show. Executor translated the subspace scan for us and it was said that the subspace isn’t shown in figure 1. Figure 1 depicts the macrocosm and that the subspace was between those dimensions of the macrocosm. The subspace definitely is apart of the macrocosm structure.

The time chamber doesn’t account for the entire macrocosm it only accounts for the Living World. The Oracle fish makes a prophecy of the strongest person in Universe 7 and it doesn’t refer to Granolah. Even though, Granolah wished to be the strongest in the Universe.

Also, please don’t tell me this is about that one RoSaT argument. That argument is really iffy and if we extrapolate it it’s not even consistent to the series to argue it’s that durable.
 
If I remember correctly, wasn't there a mention that the dimension of lights we saw in the broly movie was located between dimensions?
 
He should gain Regeneration Negation too tbf. Whis himself said there is nothing Beerus cannot destroy, which would imply erasing them forever because when he cannot erase someone forever because of regeneration (like Zamasu's case) he directly states he cannot destroy/kill them
 
Last edited:
Killerdrone123 said:
Not gonna lie it is for the first time I am seeing a guy with ayanokoji profile pic wanking db otherwise in any other media I go I always see them downplaying the heck out of db you will hear them say shit like goku is multi galaxy at max
Click to expand...
no one's wanking lol if you genuinely believe db ain't outer then you don't know how the cosmos work ngl
 
AxilityIsReal said:
no one's wanking lol if you genuinely believe db ain't outer then you don't know how the cosmos work ngl
Click to expand...
Look I want db to reach outer we all do but with solid reasoning which cannot be debunkable by verse opponents I myself personally scale db to complex multi I know it would take more than this to scale dragon ball that high here
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Subspace isn't in the Macrocosm. It's stated to exist outside of the diagram of the macrocosm in guidebooks.

"Also, there are subspaces that don't belong anywhere in the world depicted in [Fig.1].Figure 1 (図1) refers to the standard diagram of the Macrocosm."

"It is a different dimensional world that does not belong to any part of the world, and includes the "Room of Spirit and Time"
Click to expand...
This is wrong, and intellectual dishonesty. The actual scans don't say "there are subspaces that don't belong anywhere in the world depicted kn figure 1", but it only says that the subspace isn't a place that belongs to any of the realms shown in the previous page which aren't even the actual macrocosm LOL, but only 1-2 realms... that is NOT a defeater for subspaces being in the macrocosm, and also the macrocosm isn't a single space time continuum. HTC is also in the macrocosm.

Frieza not being affected by granola's wish isn't evidence of what you say, because his wish only applies to the living world, which is a space time continuum separated from others, that is not a defeater of having multiple space time continuums in the macrocosm
 
Vietthai96 said:
Yes, only World Mission is release globally and have PC version (idk if there is console one though, since i don't bother with console)
Click to expand...
I thought World Mission was just an "arc" but in the game you can do several missions, including some from Universe Mission
 
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