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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

XXBenShapiroXx said:
a perfectly reasonable point

'See? This is why I'm an opponent.'

☠️☠️☠️☠️
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That wasn't "perfectly reasonable", that was literally whataboutism, again. Do you really think the staff goes through and review every profile, every instance of Fear Manipulation written under "Fear Inducement", or "Fear Aura", or "can instill fear in opponents"? Do you really think the Wiki is perfect, and that everything you see is something to look up to? Because if so, I've got a bridge to sell you.

"Fairness"???
What about "accuracy"??????
 
Nullflowerblush said:
That wasn't "perfectly reasonable", that was literally whataboutism, again. Do you really think the staff goes through and review every profile, every instance of Fear Manipulation written under "Fear Inducement", or "Fear Aura", or "can instill fear in opponents"? Do you really think the Wiki is perfect, and that everything you see is something to look up to? Because if so, I've got a bridge to sell you.

"Fairness"???
What about "accuracy"??????
Click to expand...
The wiki obviously isn't perfect but ideals exist to strive for. You strive for the ideal of perfection to make the standards and resulting profiles as accurate and logical as possible. Denying a revision to DB because it's inaccurate when other verses get a similar revision for similar reasons should result in an examination in those verses and debating whether or not it's truly acceptable. As that inherently impacts DB's own profiles.

That's one of the arguments for why DB gets so much scrutiny, isn't it? It's one of the largest and most popular verses for battleboarding. So site standards change as a result of revisions for it. When we notice a discrepancy in how it is treated it's worth pointing out to illustrate there is a problem with how the site is managing these upgrades/downgrades. Either we should get it because it's in-line with the treatment of other verses or there is a problem with how those verses are treated and it should be dealt with.

Accuracy can't exist unless the things passed by staff are consistent. If one verse can get something passed for particular reasoning while another verse can't that indicates an inherent inaccuracy with the entire wiki which would impact every verse. As such 'fairness' is as important as 'accuracy'. If the wiki is being 'unfair' then that illustrates an inherent inaccuracy and it must be addressed for the overall health of the community.

So yes. If other verses get Fear Inducement for this reasoning but DB cannot then those verses should not have Fear Inducement. It's unhealthy for Revision and Versus threads alike and directly impacts DB's quality as a verse because we waste our time on unclear standards.
 
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Nullflowerblush said:
That wasn't "perfectly reasonable", that was literally whataboutism, again. Do you really think the staff goes through and review every profile, every instance of Fear Manipulation written under "Fear Inducement", or "Fear Aura", or "can instill fear in opponents"? Do you really think the Wiki is perfect, and that everything you see is something to look up to? Because if so, I've got a bridge to sell you.

"Fairness"???
What about "accuracy"??????
Click to expand...
Yeah this is such a nothing post lol.

Striving to uphold and apply the sites standards, even if we know there will always be something out there we haven't gotten to yet, is perfectly reasonable.

I don't think the wiki is perfect, but I think we should do our best to stick to the principals of the site.
 
I'm pretty sure the standards, as per the Fear Manipulation page, declare that terrorizing an opponent through authority, power, or demeanor is Social Influencing but whatevs, do whatever your heart feels is right. Less work for me in the future.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
That wasn't "perfectly reasonable", that was literally whataboutism, again. Do you really think the staff goes through and review every profile, every instance of Fear Manipulation written under "Fear Inducement", or "Fear Aura", or "can instill fear in opponents"? Do you really think the Wiki is perfect, and that everything you see is something to look up to? Because if so, I've got a bridge to sell you.

"Fairness"???
What about "accuracy"??????
Click to expand...
Well, I guess this is why it's always listed as just "Fear Inducement" instead of "Fear Manipulation". They are just making the target "feel frightened in some form or another". And in Saitama and Garou case, it's through their aura, which is exactly what I'm trying to apply
 
The all might thread is going the exact opposite way of Goku and Tien being compared to Roshi. I don't like that argument one bit.
 
BOEGVELD said:
Moro cannot sense God ki. ''Sense'' mostlikely refers to sight, because Piccolo says Moro can also sense Goku. The only other person who could sense Goku was Jaco, through sight.
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It’s weird, actually, because he could also immediately detect UIO’s Godly Nature. He also copied Vegeta’s powers at that point in the scan you showed, (his copied abilities also hadn’t been sealed, yet), so he should have God Ki Sensing as well.

And yet he couldn’t sense Merus. Maybe MUI/Angel Power is a higher tier of Extrasensory Perception Resistance, like I initially thought?
 
RedReaper said:
It’s weird, actually, because he could also immediately detect UIO’s Godly Nature. He also copied Vegeta’s powers at that point in the scan you showed, (his copied abilities also hadn’t been sealed, yet), so he should have God Ki Sensing as well.

And yet he couldn’t sense Merus. Maybe MUI/Angel Power is a higher tier of Extrasensory Perception Resistance, like I initially thought?
Click to expand...
Isn't the term 'Angel Power' later used when Moro copies Merus?
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Isn't the term 'Angel Power' later used when Moro copies Merus?
Click to expand...
It is, yes. It should also be noted that Moro couldn’t understand MUI, either. It’s not inherently indicative of his ability to understand it Ki-wise, obviously, it does hold merit because if he couldn’t understand MUI but could understand the Godly Nature of UIO, it means that on some level they’re completely fundamentally different (even though they’re directly related).

And whilst Vegeta could sense Goku in UIO, he couldn’t sense the difference between Goku’s UIO God Ki and normal God Ki. Here he’s sensing Goku, but here whilst he still sensing Goku he says the God Ki (1) Passive (2) in effect here MUST be Ultra Instinct, which he couldn’t pick up before (for some reason).

This could mean that it goes God Ki (Usually can only be sensed by Gods, but mortals can learn) -> Angel Ki (Only Gods and God-Adjacent can learn, which is what Vegeta claims here. “Only Gods can sense THAT kind of Godly Chi.”)
 
RedReaper said:
It is, yes. It should also be noted that Moro couldn’t understand MUI, either. It’s not inherently indicative of his ability to understand it Ki-wise, obviously, it does hold merit because if he couldn’t understand MUI but could understand the Godly Nature of UIO, it means that on some level they’re completely fundamentally different (even though they’re directly related).
Click to expand...
It's worth noting that when Vegeta goes Ultra Ego Goku noticed the difference between ordinary God Chi and Vegeta's Ultra Ego God Chi. Which implies that God of Destruction chi i is inherently different from normal God Ki. Much like how UI's God Chi appears to be different from UIS or SSB God Chi. Granted Goku was able to sense it but there is a clear difference and perhaps Goku's sensory ability has evolved from learning Ultra Instinct?

So it could follow as:
Mortal Chi -> God Chi -> Destroyer Chi -> Angel Chi
 
CryoTheMayo said:
It's worth noting that when Vegeta goes Ultra Ego Goku noticed the difference between ordinary God Chi and Vegeta's Ultra Ego God Chi. Which implies that God of Destruction chi i is inherently different from normal God Ki. Much like how UI's God Chi appears to be different from UIS or SSB God Chi. Granted Goku was able to sense it but there is a clear difference and perhaps Goku's sensory ability has evolved from learning Ultra Instinct?

So it could follow as:
Mortal Chi -> God Chi -> Destroyer Chi -> Angel Chi
Click to expand...
Since narratively and power wise Angel Ki and Destroyer Ki are supposed to be their equal-opposite “next level” (hence the naming convention), I think Destroyer Chi and Angel Chi should be on the same bracket (at least for Goku and Vegeta specifically). I think it should also be noted that, at least according to the Goku Black arc, natural God Ki and man-made God Ki are different, which is why Black has pink hair for his variant of SSB, SSR.

So maybe it’s like:

Mortal Chi -> Mortal-Made God Chi -> Natural God Chi -> Destroyer/Angel Chi (and potentially an extra break for Mortal Made iterations if we assume the rule remains consistent through God Ki’s variations).
 
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The situation with the thread on staff discussion getting no involvement beyond I disagree is starting to get irritating. Get Ultima or DT on there for God's sake.
 
The fact that Pein is even allowed to continue posting there is a problem. I don't know why he hasn't been told off yet when he's not even trying to debate the blog and outright said he didn't read it. And frankly I don't get the impression that Ant is even engaging for any reason but to say 'No.' when he just asks for someone else to explain it when a blog was linked and it's referenced in most of the posts on the entire second page.

I'm sorry if this all comes off as rude but I'm just feeling very frustrated with how this entire revision is being treated. If they disagree then fine but if Pein hasn't even read it and Ant won't even take five seconds to check the context and give the blog at least a cursory glance then it just makes me feel like Profectus wasted his time. At least have the damn pretense of respecting the effort that has been invested.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
The fact that Pein is even allowed to continue posting there is a problem. I don't know why he hasn't been told off yet when he's not even trying to debate the blog and outright said he didn't read it. And frankly I don't get the impression that Ant is even engaging for any reason but to say 'No.' when he just asks for someone else to explain it when a blog was linked and it's referenced in most of the posts on the entire second page.

I'm sorry if this all comes off as rude but I'm just feeling very frustrated with how this entire revision is being treated. If they disagree then fine but if Pein hasn't even read it and Ant won't even take five seconds to check the context and give the blog at least a cursory glance then it just makes me feel like Profectus wasted his time. At least have the damn pretense of respecting the effort that has been invested.
Click to expand...

Ant literally invited him. Why would he not comment?
 
CryoTheMayo said:
The fact that Pein is even allowed to continue posting there is a problem. I don't know why he hasn't been told off yet when he's not even trying to debate the blog and outright said he didn't read it. And frankly I don't get the impression that Ant is even engaging for any reason but to say 'No.' when he just asks for someone else to explain it when a blog was linked and it's referenced in most of the posts on the entire second page.

I'm sorry if this all comes off as rude but I'm just feeling very frustrated with how this entire revision is being treated. If they disagree then fine but if Pein hasn't even read it and Ant won't even take five seconds to check the context and give the blog at least a cursory glance then it just makes me feel like Profectus wasted his time. At least have the damn pretense of respecting the effort that has been invested.
Click to expand...
Yes this is very annoying, but idk what to say atp.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
He has permission in that thread and I feel that permission should be stripped when he's refusing to even read the arguments and is trying to dismiss the entire revision. That's what I'm getting at.
Click to expand...

He is considered nearly as knowledgeable of tier stuff as DT and Ultima so I don't think that can happen.
 
Never claimed the opposite. Sadly I don't do well with that stuff beyond the very basic concepts so I will just watch.
 
RedReaper said:
It’s weird, actually, because he could also immediately detect UIO’s Godly Nature. He also copied Vegeta’s powers at that point in the scan you showed, (his copied abilities also hadn’t been sealed, yet), so he should have God Ki Sensing as well.

And yet he couldn’t sense Merus. Maybe MUI/Angel Power is a higher tier of Extrasensory Perception Resistance, like I initially thought?
Click to expand...
Which he probably concluded because he couldn't sense Goku's ki. It would be fairly illogical for him to only conclude this after seeing it the second time if he can actually sense God ki.
 
BOEGVELD said:
Which he probably concluded because he couldn't sense Goku's ki. It would be fairly illogical for him to only conclude this after seeing it the second time if he can actually sense God ki.
Click to expand...
This actually doesn't line up. If not sensing it would allow him to know it's God Ki, he wouldn't ask Merus if it was camouflage, first. Heck, he had Vegeta's powers and still couldn't sense Merus/Understand MUI Goku. Even then, Moro claims he CAN sense God Ki when he talks to the Lord of Lords, and explicitly notes that none exists within Buu-(Because the Evil Buu gained all of the God Power, as we see later in the Arc.)

So either the entire arc is inconsistent in his God Ki sensory, or God Ki has a layered sensory spectrum.
 
RedReaper said:
This actually doesn't line up. If not sensing it would allow him to know it's God Ki, he wouldn't ask Merus if it was camouflage, first. Heck, he had Vegeta's powers and still couldn't sense Merus/Understand MUI Goku. Even then, Moro claims he CAN sense God Ki when he talks to the Lord of Lords, and explicitly notes that none exists within Buu-(Because the Evil Buu gained all of the God Power, as we see later in the Arc.)
Click to expand...
It doesn't allow him know for certain, which is why he asked both times. But if he knows that it's not regular ki, then there is really only one other option; it's God ki. I also don't think sensing God ki is considered a power or ability the way Hakai or Kamehameha are, but I can agree it's probably layered based on the scan you sent.
 
BOEGVELD said:
It doesn't allow him know for certain, which is why he asked both times. But if he knows that it's not regular ki, then there is really only one other option; it's God ki. I also don't think sensing God ki is considered a power or ability the way Hakai or Kamehameha are, but I can agree it's probably layered based on the scan you sent.
Click to expand...
Well, 7-3 copies both "abilities" and "combat power."


It's also why any training Gohan and Piccolo did in between the time of their previous and current fight was meaningless, because he co-opted all their abilities. I mean, 7-3 also demonstrates the regeneration, elasticity, and size manip of a Namekian, and none of those are in the same category of energy attacks. 7-3 also was capable of copying dimensional travel, quill fire, and invisibilty as well. Not to mention that Ki Sensing in general is an ability, considering Vegeta had to get it in comparison to characters from the Frieza Force, who relied on their Scouters.


Nullflowerblush said:
What if Moro "sensing God Ki" is him recognizing that he can no longer sense his target's energy?
Click to expand...
That doesn't make sense? In this scan specifically he is saying he can't sense God Ki in the Kai, but he could before all those millions of years ago.

Functionally, it'd make more sense to say that it's Moro realizing he CAN sense his opponent's energy, but that in itself is contradictory to the statement being made to begin with-Since Moro is establishing "You had God Power I could sense at one point, but now you no longer do."

Due to that, I'm leaning into the idea that it's a spectrum, especially because of the comments Vegeta-("Only Gods can sense THAT KIND of Godly Chi,")-and Goku-("I sense Godly Chi, but not ANY KIND of Godly Chi...,") make in regards to their "Ultra" forms. It's God Ki, but one of a different nature in some way that separates it from the rest. (Personally it seems like they're trying to make UI and UE what SSG and SSB should've been initially when it comes to the difference between it and normal Ki.)
 
Go whatever you feel is right.
Even though, like, the Mummy was scared spitless by Goku's distinct lack of fighting style during their fight. Again, terrorizing via demeanor is Social Influencing, too.
 
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