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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
Vizer04
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DBZ had, in my opinion, one of the most consistent depictions of time travel in fiction. DBS on the other hand, it's kind of a mess...
Vizer04
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The Four Timelines of DBZ
• Original Timeline: Cell kills Trunks and steals his Time Machine.
• Unseen Timeline: Created by the Trunks from the Original Timeline. The Androids are defeated here and Cell never appears (although his embryo might still be on Gero's Lab)
• Main Timeline: Created by the Cell from the Original Timeline. The main storyline takes place here.
• Trunks' Timeline: Trunks defeats the Androids and Cell extremely easily thanks to his training in the Time Chamber.
Notes: The Main and Unseen are mirror timelines. What does that mean? It means that they're similar, almost identical, but with some minor differences. The Original and Trunks' are also mirror timelines.
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Isn’t this wrong? I thought Cell kills Trunks AFTER Trunks already succeeded with the Androids and was returning to all his friends he made—Hence why Cell had to return to the past in the first place. (Because Trunks handled the Androids).
THEN after Trunks already time traveled, before he’s able to make his second trip he’s ambushed and killed by Cell, creating the Cell timeline (which he then breaks by moving his time travel date backwards, which we know disconnects parallel worlds until they invent a fix for this in DBS, creating a plot hole).
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DB Multiverse actually expands on the Unseen timeline.
Trunks from the original timeline, instead of training, deactivates the androids with the kill button, which is how Cell murks him.
In the Unseen timeline, after befriending the androids (and being refused the time chamber from the lack of Cell), they all died to Majin Buu years later
.
Vizer04
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That's correct, Trunks already made a trip before. That trip created the Unseen Timeline that i mentioned on my post. Before he could make a second trip he was killed by Cell, who would then make a trip himself, creating the Main Timeline in the process.
Vizer04
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There's a theory that says the Android 13 Movie takes place in the Unseen Timeline.
Nullflowerblush
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But, like, where did this timeline originate?
The only way for Future Trunks's world and the main world to co-exist is if Cell travelling back twenty years created Future Trunks's world, and then Future Trunks travelling back seventeen years created the main world.
or...
cell travelling back in time splintered the original timeline into future trunks's world and the main world
like how trunks time travelling splintered the main timeline into our timeline and the timeline where zamasu became black
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That also reminds me, in the Unseen Timeline there should be no Cell—Krillin killed him in the Basement. Or, conversely, that creates a new second unseen Timeline considering Trunks created this initial one.
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The timelines that they can time travel are created when the history is changed, and not by the action of time travelling, so
1. Trunks goes to the past. First, original Timeline
2. A new timeline is created when Trunks kills Freeza and Cold instead of Goku, changing the history. Second Timeline
3. Trunks likely founds the Androids blueprints
4. Trunks goes back to his future (First Timeline) with the control to destroy the Androids and succeeds
5. Cell finds Trunks, kills him and goes to the past of the Second Timeline, everything happens normally until they found Cell's time machine
6. A new timeline is created because the history changed, since Trunks was supposed to go back to the future, but he stayed after discovering Cell's time machine. Third Timeline, and the one we see in the manga and anime
7. After the Cell Games, Trunks time travels to the future (First Timeline) and kills Cell, changing the history and creating the fourth timeline, since he was supposed to die
1. Trunks goes to the past. First, original Timeline
2. A new timeline is created when Trunks kills Freeza and Cold instead of Goku, changing the history. Second Timeline
3. Trunks likely founds the Androids blueprints
4. Trunks goes back to his future (First Timeline) with the control to destroy the Androids and succeeds
5. Cell finds Trunks, kills him and goes to the past of the Second Timeline, everything happens normally until they found Cell's time machine
6. A new timeline is created because the history changed, since Trunks was supposed to go back to the future, but he stayed after discovering Cell's time machine. Third Timeline, and the one we see in the manga and anime
7. After the Cell Games, Trunks time travels to the future (First Timeline) and kills Cell, changing the history and creating the fourth timeline, since he was supposed to die
Nullflowerblush
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what
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We can't forget that Goku and Trunks go back in the past of child Goku (creating another timeline)
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Could be but would be limited as it only works on those weaker.
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Yeah, but it’s also related to their maliciousness. As one gets more malicious, their Ki becomes that much more fear inducing. There’s also the unique case of Cell, who can have the dead’s consumed energy/“Souls” be sensed—Said energy being a writhing and screaming mass of agony. Then there are those whose energy signatures are simply fundamentally broken, like the Trio De Dangers (who couldn’t be sensed at all) and Buu (whose energy signature was deceptive and could not accurately be parsed).
Vizer04
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There's an explanation for this but it is very complex so bear with me.
The moment Trunks used the Time Machine he did one thing: he created a new timeline.
The moment Cell used the Time Machine he did two things: he created a new timeline and created a mirror effect.
This "mirror effect" occurs because he's creating a timeline based on another one where a "Future" already exists. This means that another "Future" has to exist for this process to make sense.
Here's a visual explanation of this process:
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I'm really curious about what happened in this timeline. Did Babidi ever get enough energy to release Buu? If he did, did Beerus stop Buu? Did Freeza's soldiers ever find Namek and resurrect Freeza? What about Moro? Did Zeno go through with erasing the universes or was someone able to offer an alternative?
Feels like there would be a lot of potential there for a spinoff story.
Serlock_Holmes
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There is also the universe 12 timeline. That one should by virtue of the time created have the most differences with the current one.
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A slight issue with all these timelines is that we have to wonder how many universes still exist. In the previous timelines Zeno may have erased all but 4 of the universes like he originally planned. If we ever had a feat of destroying 'all timelines' then that would get in the way a fair bit.
It's entirely possible that every timeline except the main timeline has only four universes because those other timelines didn't have Goku in the right place, time and level of power to influence Zeno and to also be capable of winning the ToP and having 17 wish the universes back.
Serlock_Holmes
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If there didn't exist a goku then the ToP wouldn't happen though.
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Yes, and Zeno planned on erasing 8 of the 12 universes already. In the manga he was about to do it right before Goku showed up just because he was bored of them.
Serlock_Holmes
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Was that stated in the anime? Haven't really read the manga.
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I believe it was stated Zeno intended on wiping out the lowest 8 universes but chose to use the ToP to spare the one universe that proves itself worthy. The anime has it revealed towards the end that Zeno would have erased all of the universes if the winner had made a selfish wish though, implying he was always hoping for the winner to restore the lost universes.
Comparatively in the manga version none of that is ever stated. Zeno was going to erase 8 of the 12 universes on a whim. He only did the ToP out of selfish entertainment. Android 17 restored the erased universes to spite Zeno. The only one that shows any approval over 17's wish is the Grand Priest who smiles at him after hearing his wish.
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There’s apparently a DBH card showing Ultimate SSJ Gohan
Serlock_Holmes
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So are Zeno in the anime somewhat more morally good than the manga ones?
Vizer04
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I feel really bad for the Original Timeline Bulma: all her friends dead forever, no Dragon Balls, etc. And the moment they finally defeat the androids and have some peace... her son gets killed by a bio-android and the time machine gets stolen. It's honestly really tragic.
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It’s not much better for normal Future Timeline Bulma. She got a hot second of peace and then she was terrorized by Babidi and Dabura only for then, RIGHT AFTER, for Black to appear, terrorize then further (to the brink of extinction) and then ultimately dies thanks to a foe who looks like her oldest and closest friend.
In fact, when you think about it, relevant every Timeline Bulma gets terribly screwed over except the main one. Because, for example, OG Timelins Bulma lost her son, and thus her only resistance to Babidi—And Black can still show up later.
Same goes for the Unseen Timeline(s). Babidi appears and ***** shit up, and since that Trunks used a button, he’s not strong enough (thus he dies), and Black can arrive later. Cell could arrive later in that timeline, (and a second identical Timeline happens without Cell) or Cell simply doesn’t exist (assuming that Krillin’s changes also affect the Unseen Timeline instead of making a new one. Either option is viable.)
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The manga has only depicted them as pretty sociopathic. They literally play with the universes as chess pieces and decide to erase 8 universes because '"Six pieces for each of us is too many, let's have two each instead!" and one of the main reasons 17 makes his wish is just to spite them for toying with mortals.
In the anime tho the Zenos instead played a game where they flicked planets into one another (one of which was shown to be Earth-like, so it likely had innocent life on it) and then decided to do the tournament after Goku reminds them for fun. The end of the tournament has it revealed that Zeno used it as a test for whether mortals could be selfless enough to keep existing, has hopes Goku can influence the universes to be better and was going to wipe out all of existence (that is, all universes) if a selfish wish had been made.
So it's a bit of a mixed bag. Zeno in the anime feels like he has more of an actual plan for mortals and like the mortal level actually means something but he still casually plays with mortal lives as toys whereas manga Zeno has zero plan for mortals and is purely motivated by selfishness, killing entire universes for pure convenience.
Serlock_Holmes
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So in anime they may have a plan in mind but are still monsters while in manga there are pure monsters.
Serlock_Holmes
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Wouldn't universe 7 in the original timeline still use time travel?
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Yes, which makes me wonder if anyone should really be concerned about the idea of Freeza being Omni-King. He's evil but I don't see what he would do worse than Zeno, and him being a guy that loves playing Civilisation and Europa Universalis would probably make him care more about his universes being high-quality.
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Hearts had the right idea fr
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Yeah imagine finding out that the supreme being that governs over all of existence was this callous creature that just... doesn't really care for mortal life and plays games at the expense of said lives. I would feel very disturbed and uneasy, maybe even infuriated.
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wouldn't mind Hearts but canon version
Serlock_Holmes
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What can we expect?
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Uhh a new Dokkan Battle advertisement, some new figure, an announcement of an upcoming announcement and something related to how great and wonderful Dragon Ball is.
Nullflowerblush
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Sand Land.
Serlock_Holmes
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Well the low 1-c thread is going worse than my relationship.
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