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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

No it doesn't. Broly and Jiren being that strong doesn't mean God ki is useless, it means Broly and Jiren are strong as ****, one having a narrative reason, the other being Broly.
I mean, if they could get that strong without it, what stoped goku from doing the same? Actually, 17 did that with basic training, and he doesn't even have ki

Goku and Vegeta are extraordinarily strong, which means they must have extraordinary competition.

Goku and Vegeta having god ki is the only reason they can compete with people like that to begin with.
This is more because of them then anything else, dende has god ki, he isn't strong at all
 
I mean, if they could get that strong without it, what stoped goku from doing the same? Actually, 17 did that with basic training, and he doesn't even have ki


This is more because of them then anything else, dende has god ki, he isn't strong at all
17 has infinite stamina and was massively stronger than someone look Frieza without any training. Nearly two decades of training plus DBS power creep is more than enough to explain away his growth. Goku trained for 7 years in otherworld and didn't get nearly as strong.

Also I already addressed your second point, application of your ki is also important. Look, let's put it this way, if you gave gohan God ki, he'd probably get way stronger than he is now. God ki is a huge boost, but it isnt a 'lol you win' button, that wouldn't be interesting

Broly is Broly, his character has always been strong for no reason. And we have no idea how old Jiren is, or what type of training he went through, and I've already explained the narrative reason he had for being so strong.

It's a damned if you do damned if you don't, if goku and vegeta were that randomly strong when that's never been in line with their character, people would complain.
 
17 has infinite stamina and was massively stronger than someone look Frieza without any training.
So?

Nearly two decades of training plus DBS power creep is more than enough to explain away his growth. Goku trained for 7 years in otherworld and didn't get nearly as strong.
Dbs power creep is just plot, plus, by logic, shouldn't have become just as much stronger?

Also I already addressed your second point, application of your ki is also important. Look, let's put it this way, if you gave gohan God ki, he'd probably get way stronger than he is now. God ki is a huge boost, but it isnt a 'lol you win' button, that wouldn't be interesting
Do we have any statement that say "god ki>>normal ki in general"?

Broly is Broly, his character has always been strong for no reason.
Which counters the fact that he got that strong without god ki how?

And we have no idea how old Jiren is, or what type of training he went through, and I've already explained the narrative reason he had for being so strong.
The point was that he didn't need god ki to match and surpass god ki users

It's a damned if you do damned if you don't, if goku and vegeta were that randomly strong when that's never been in line with their character, people would complain.
Training tho
 
So?


Dbs power creep is just plot, plus, by logic, shouldn't have become just as much stronger?


Do we have any statement that say "god ki>>normal ki in general"?


Which counters the fact that he got that strong without god ki how?


The point was that he didn't need god ki to match and surpass god ki users


Training tho
None of these are proper responses to my points. This is just handwaving, you are arguing to argue. 'So?' isn't an arguement.

You seem to keep missing the point. The fact Broly and Jiren can do these things doesn't mean God ki is useless, it means they themselves are extraordinary for being able to match God ki users.

Broly, even the Z version, was just big strong, and Super follows that albeit with a bit more character to him. Jiren was hyped up as **** for the fact he could surpass GoDs. They are extraordinary, God ki is also extraordinary as it allowed Goku to almost destroy the universe. Two things can be true at once.

Like the story about DBS is mostly Goku and Vegets training to get stronger. If it was as easy at it was for 17 or Frieza it wouldn't be intresting. Pointing to different situations of different characters and applying that to goku and vegeta is a cop out.
 
None of these are proper responses to my points. This is just handwaving, you are arguing to argue. 'So?' isn't an arguement.
"So?" means that i didn't saw the point of the argument

You seem to keep missing the point. The fact Broly and Jiren can do these things doesn't mean God ki is useless, it means they themselves are extraordinary for being able to match God ki users.
When have i said that it was useless tho?

Broly, even the Z version, was just big strong, and Super follows that albeit with a bit more character to him. Jiren was hyped up as **** for the fact he could surpass GoDs. They are extraordinary, God ki is also extraordinary as it allowed Goku to almost destroy the universe. Two things can be true at once.
Base goku without god ki surpassed that with his AD alone so.........meh?

Like the story about DBS is mostly Goku and Vegets training to get stronger. If it was as easy at it was for 17 or Frieza it wouldn't be intresting. Pointing to different situations of different characters and applying that to goku and vegeta is a cop out.
It shows that in universe you don't need god ki to be strong and top tier
 
"So?" means that i didn't saw the point of the argument


When have i said that it was useless tho?


Base goku without god ki surpassed that with his AD alone so.........meh?


It shows that in universe you don't need god ki to be strong and top tier
I know you don't see the point of my arguement, that's why you keep responding. I was arguing against the idea god ki is useless, if you switch goalposts and say that's never what was being argued about, fine, but my point is without god ki they don't survive beerus, frieza, they don't win the U6 torny, they don't win against goku black, they don't win the ToP.

Goku adapting to god ki is seen as an incredible thing that beerus even notes, so no, not meh.

Your last arguement tells me your arguing to argue, because I've already painted how how god ki isn't an instant win button and how application matters. You just argued against me using a point I already made.

People who keep up with god ki are extraordinary, those like goku and vegeta who use god ki are also extraordinary, those don't contradict each other.
 
Here's all the novels for anyone who wants them, there are multiple versions of the novel, not just one.

https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/mobile/folders/1EWCm7SqmVJ8E00tEYkhddNGbPkKDvohq

Page 208 on the side of superhero movie


Hermes even explains it

In order raws if anyone is interested

and raws from physical copy

Stop inventing lies about me, if I'm not going to denounce you now, I'm not lying or falsifying anything, all the proofs are there, if you want just read it and show it to someone that know Japanese, I just hate that people blame me for something I didn't do
 
Stop inventing lies about me, if I'm not going to denounce you now, I'm not lying or falsifying anything, all the proofs are there, if you want just read it and show it to someone that know Japanese, I just hate that people blame me for something I didn't do
pretty sure this is not report worthy
 
DRAGON BALL FOREVER says things like "Goku increased his strength by nearly twenty-times leading up to the 22nd World Martial Arts Tournament" and "Training under Kami, Goku's progress doubled" in regards to differences in Power Levels throughout the years (10 vs 180; 260 vs 416). What to do with this.
 
DRAGON BALL FOREVER says things like "Goku increased his strength by nearly twenty-times leading up to the 22nd World Martial Arts Tournament" and "Training under Kami, Goku's progress doubled" in regards to differences in Power Levels throughout the years (10 vs 180; 260 vs 416). What to do with this.
As an official guidebook I would assume that's usable. We use the 10x SS1 multiplier from the El Manga Legendario for Grade 3 don't we? So the issue is just the contradiction between official power levels and how much FOREVER claims Goku grew.

There's a pretty simple solution, I think. Power levels aren't linear. If they aren't linear then where's the contradiction? No known formula for them exists. So with that logic you could just calculate it as:

Goku (23rd) >> (40x 5-C) >> Goku (King Piccolo, 5-C leap) >>>> Goku (22nd) > (20x 8-C) > Goku (21st)

This would upgrade 23rd Budokai Goku and Piccolo to Low 5-B (Baseline is only 14.62x 5-C), keep Post-22nd Goku and King Piccolo at 5-C and would keep 22nd Goku at High 8-C. If passed, it would also scale to Raditz and Nappa who would both be Low 5-B and Freeza's soldiers (who are generally on par with or above 23rd Goku and Piccolo)

My only issue is what 'leading up to the 22nd World Martial Arts Tournament' means. If it means Goku grew 20x after the 21st Budokai then there is some argument for 8-B 22nd Goku (8-C to baseline 8-B is a 44x gap, he grew 20x since the 21st Budokai but already grew much stronger pre-21st from Roshi's training)
 
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My only issue is what 'leading up to the 22nd World Martial Arts Tournament' means.
180
經過龜仙人和貓仙人的訓練後,悟空的實力提升了接近二十倍!
After being trained by [the Turtle Hermit] and [Karin], Goku's strength has increased by almost 20 times!
Everything from the Pilaf Saga, where he is described as having a Power Level of 10, and the 22nd World Martial Arts Tournament is worth nearly an entire twenty-times increase.
416
得到天神的訓練,悟空進步接近一倍。為了使出龜波氣功而儲氣時,數值上升到接近1000!
After being trained by [Kami], Goku's strength nearly doubles. When Goku stored up his ki to perform the Kamehameha, this value increased to nearly 1,000!
Everything between the Piccolo fight, where he had a Power Level of 260, and the 23rd World Martial Arts Tournament is nearly two-times.
 

Everything from the Pilaf Saga, where he is described as having a Power Level of 10, and the 22nd World Martial Arts Tournament is worth nearly an entire twenty-times increase.

Everything between the Piccolo fight, where he had a Power Level of 260, and the 23rd World Martial Arts Tournament is nearly two-times.
Firstly that points to the fact that kamehameha doesn't really have a multiplier but rather the accumulation of ki reached the 1000 power level and also that power levels....are somewhat linear? Then is the farmer with shotgun 1/30.000.000 of Frieza?
 
People always say that Farmer with a Shotgun can't be High 6-A when the normal Bunny Guards survived Roshi blowing up the Moon while they were on it
 

Everything from the Pilaf Saga, where he is described as having a Power Level of 10, and the 22nd World Martial Arts Tournament is worth nearly an entire twenty-times increase.

Everything between the Piccolo fight, where he had a Power Level of 260, and the 23rd World Martial Arts Tournament is nearly two-times.
Ah, well in that case I'm not sure what would really change with this. The power levels already seem to reflect these changes decently. The only real issue is that Goku should have a power of nearly 520 when it's only 416 by Raditz (which is several years later) but you can just chalk that up to the numbers being rough.
 
Ah, well in that case I'm not sure what would really change with this. The power levels already seem to reflect these changes decently. The only real issue is that Goku should have a power of nearly 520 when it's only 416 by Raditz (which is several years later) but you can just chalk that up to the numbers being rough.
Or maybe....just maybe:
images
 
Or maybe....just maybe:
I'm bringing up the numbers because Goku growing 20x from Roshi and Korin lines up almost perfectly with his power level at the 22nd Budokai while his power by the 23rd Budokai wouldn't make as much sense. PLs are bullshit regardless, it just felt almost intentional.

The Farmer is High 6-A. Prove me wrong.
 
Ah, well in that case I'm not sure what would really change with this. The power levels already seem to reflect these changes decently. The only real issue is that Goku should have a power of nearly 520 when it's only 416 by Raditz (which is several years later) but you can just chalk that up to the numbers being rough.
The Power Levels are completely and utterly irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that Goku is explicitly described as growing x-times stronger.

"Goku's Power Level increased from 10 to 180" is worth nothing.
"Goku's strength increased by nearly twenty-times" is a different story entirely.
 
The Power Levels are completely and utterly irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that Goku is explicitly described as growing x-times stronger.

"Goku's Power Level increased from 10 to 180" is worth nothing.
"Goku's strength increased by nearly twenty-times" is a different story entirely.
If the statement is not for powerlevel, but for goku himself, then it should be 100% valid
 
The Power Levels are completely and utterly irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that Goku is explicitly described as growing x-times stronger.

"Goku's Power Level increased from 10 to 180" is worth nothing.
"Goku's strength increased by nearly twenty-times" is a different story entirely.
That seems like an illogical standard. Even if power levels aren't linear, the issue with using them is that the actual gap is usually way larger than the PL gap (the gap between 23rd Goku and Saiyan Saga Vegeta is thousands of times yet their power level gap is only around 50x). From that you can just look at the power level figures and say "Well Goku has a power level of 180 at the 22nd Budokai and a power of 10 at the start of the series so he must have grown at least 18x stronger." Like there isn't any example that I can think of where the power level gap is actually smaller than it should be, it's always similar or greater. So you can just use PL numbers to get a bare minimum. They're bullshit but that aspect remains fairly consistent.

To clarify my point: You can say Goku (PL 10) is at least twice as strong as the Farmer (PL 5) but you can't say the Farmer is half Goku's power. Because we know Goku double the power level (and so at least double the strength) but PL gaps tend to be exponential.

Either way you did a good job by finding those multipliers. Nice work.
 
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So I guess Great Ape Goku at the tournament is 8-A now and they hit Low 5-B early, before Vegeta even shows up
 
I'm waiting for the next fake DBS return announcement so I get see what new conspiracy theories people will come up with. We are bound for another 'leak' soon, it's been at least a month since the last one.
 
See these numbers that keep track of how many times Toei employees take a shit per hour? They clearly tell us when DBS returns in Octobuary that we will be getting a retelling of the garlic Jr saga animated by higakai shitofuk
 
Not exactly related but I been watching Yugioh GX and come to a conclusion...

Yubel is like a Vegeta that (nearly) always wins.
 
Not exactly related but I been watching Yugioh GX and come to a conclusion...

Yubel is like a Vegeta that (nearly) always wins.
Yubel is very powerful, I heard it's at least 1-C/low 1-C, from merging 12 or 11 higher dimensions, it still exists in a world that is described as being at least 5D
 
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