Vizer04
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That doesn't mean that their SSJ forms are above Dabura.
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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
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What, so you think their base forms are?
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Ah so you think dabura and perfect cell slaps SSJ3 Goku? LOL, I think what you're trying to say is that they need SSJ2 not just SSJ to beat dabura right?
Well if you have proof that cell and dabura scale above buu saga SSJ characters then show me, but as far as I know, he only scales above gohan, and has no reason to scale to buu saga SSJ Goku.
Vizer04
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He's strong, like Gohan was against Cell, or perhaps even stronger.
That "perharps" implies that Vegeta is stronger than SS2 Gohan but not by a large margin. On the other hand, this is what it says on Perfect Cell's profile:
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The scan isn't working, you're using the same site I am. But I assume you are talking about majin vegeta saying that Goku surpasses Gohan when he fought cell I'm sure.
In that case you misunderstand, Vegeta is talking about SSJ2 Goku, SSJ2 Goku is above SSJ2 Gohan who slapped and killed super perfect cell, regular perfect cell surpasses SSJ1 Gohan, that's what the profile says. That's why Perfect cell is large star while SSJ2 Goku is solar system level.
Vizer04
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Actually, it was Piccolo who said that and SS2 is a multiplier so the difference between SS2 Gohan and SS2 Goku is the same as SSJ Gohan and SSJ Goku.
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Oh yeah I recall piccolo saying that when Vegeta encountered buu. Yes, but we tend to ignore the SSJ2 multiplier because of how inconsistent it is, but it still doesn't contradict anything as SSJ2 Goku would just be way stronger than Gohan then. But do note that just because SSJ Goku is 50x SSJ gohan does not mean that SSJ2 Goku is likewise SSJ2 gohan like I said before since they simply scale to a feat in that form.
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No... if there is no actual consistent multiplier then the SSJ2 boost doesn't work like a multiplier but a mere ">", you can see SSJ Gohan is star level 978 tenatons but as a SSJ2 he suddenly is 1 kilofoe or something crazy like that through scaling, like a non exaggerated 1000x stronger, that doesn't mean that Goku also going SSJ2 will give him that same increase. That's how we scale power boosts that lack a proper multiplier.
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I thought he’d be 4-B because his Buu saga SSJ rating is high 4-C+, which is less than 2x away from 4-B.
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Unfortunately, that feat was debunked. Shin doesn't actually create celestial bodies.
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Tuff.
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Okay I think I'm done with shin scaling. Now I need help with Gotenks. We might be able to scale pre rosat BASE GOTENKS above the SSJ2's, but the problem is that Gotenks is freaking stupid and extremely arrogant but I'll make my points.
When we see base Gotenks for the first time, Piccolo says that if he fights buu like he is, he's gonna get clapped, and get clapped he did, but despite this, Gotenks, who experience the same thing goten and trunks did which is majin vegeta's power, thought that he could actually beat buu, and he should know not to mess around as vegeta is half his father and his father died fighting buu, this implies that gotenks knew he was stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta that's why he was confident, this is also supported by krillin stating that he might be able to do something against buu, krillin who also watched SSJ2 vegeta get slapped around by buu. (DB manga chapter 480 page 11-12)
But there are problems with this, one Gotenks is an arrogant brat and a moron and is most likely just overestimating himself, two, trunks and goten felt SSJ3 Goku's power and knew that buu scales to him, if he thought he'd beat buu despite knowing this then it's contradicted by him getting stomped in the fight and is just explained by him being arrogant which sullies the previous points. Personally I don't feel comfortable scaling like this but I feel it's worth mentioning.
The other thing I need help with is where was it stated that pre ROSAT SSJ Gotenks was stronger than SSJ3 Goku? I read the manga and I can't find anything that states this. Though there is some implication, Gotenks was again confident in beating Buu but his opinion is very weak due to what happened before and his arrogance, but I don't think Gotenks is mentally disabled and wouldn't make the same mistake twice, he even says it won't turn out like before, but the really interesting thing is that piccolo doesn't actually deny this like before, he simply says that he only has a minute of fusion, this leads me to believe that Gotenks was indeed stronger than fat buu at that point, but I need more evidence so can I get some help as to why the wiki accepts this scaling?
After that we can apply this scaling, Buu << SSJ3 Goku < SSJ Gotenks < post rosat Base gotenks <<< 50x = SSJ Gotenks <<< SSJ3 Gotenks.
Sorry for the gigantic wall of text but help would be appreciated.
When we see base Gotenks for the first time, Piccolo says that if he fights buu like he is, he's gonna get clapped, and get clapped he did, but despite this, Gotenks, who experience the same thing goten and trunks did which is majin vegeta's power, thought that he could actually beat buu, and he should know not to mess around as vegeta is half his father and his father died fighting buu, this implies that gotenks knew he was stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta that's why he was confident, this is also supported by krillin stating that he might be able to do something against buu, krillin who also watched SSJ2 vegeta get slapped around by buu. (DB manga chapter 480 page 11-12)
But there are problems with this, one Gotenks is an arrogant brat and a moron and is most likely just overestimating himself, two, trunks and goten felt SSJ3 Goku's power and knew that buu scales to him, if he thought he'd beat buu despite knowing this then it's contradicted by him getting stomped in the fight and is just explained by him being arrogant which sullies the previous points. Personally I don't feel comfortable scaling like this but I feel it's worth mentioning.
The other thing I need help with is where was it stated that pre ROSAT SSJ Gotenks was stronger than SSJ3 Goku? I read the manga and I can't find anything that states this. Though there is some implication, Gotenks was again confident in beating Buu but his opinion is very weak due to what happened before and his arrogance, but I don't think Gotenks is mentally disabled and wouldn't make the same mistake twice, he even says it won't turn out like before, but the really interesting thing is that piccolo doesn't actually deny this like before, he simply says that he only has a minute of fusion, this leads me to believe that Gotenks was indeed stronger than fat buu at that point, but I need more evidence so can I get some help as to why the wiki accepts this scaling?
After that we can apply this scaling, Buu << SSJ3 Goku < SSJ Gotenks < post rosat Base gotenks <<< 50x = SSJ Gotenks <<< SSJ3 Gotenks.
Sorry for the gigantic wall of text but help would be appreciated.
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So I found some interesting scaling, Future Gohan when he fought 17 was only around 50% of 17's power as stated by 17 (chapter 397.5 page 11), and bulma told future trunks that he was not as strong as gohan was before he died even after 3 years (chapter 397.5 page 16), now what's interesting is that Gohan said that he wasn't as strong as Goku before he passed away (chapter 397.5 page 3), and we know that yardrat Goku was far above future trunks (the same one who was stated inferior to gohan) and SSJ vegeta slaps all the previous, but is weaker than 17. No with all this, we can derive this scaling.
Future trunks < Future Gohan < yardrat Goku < Vegeta <<< 17 (2x future gohan). This would actually make 17 and 18 large star level.
Future trunks < Future Gohan < yardrat Goku < Vegeta <<< 17 (2x future gohan). This would actually make 17 and 18 large star level.
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That is precisely what I am doing.
Nullflowerblush
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?
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Btw, when Piccolo and the human Z Fighter's tried to help Gohan against Cell, Cell used his aura to blast them away. But all of them were able to show some resistance to it, and the human Z Fighter's fared against it just as well as Piccolo did. I wonder if I could make a CRT out of that.
Edit: Also, I just noticed that on his profile it says he surpassed Semi-Perfect Cell after training, where is that stated again?
Edit: Also, I just noticed that on his profile it says he surpassed Semi-Perfect Cell after training, where is that stated again?
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Not sure, but holding your own against a Cell Jr scales you above semi-perfect cell
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For your first question, that is non canon to the manga, Gohan only had helf from vegeta during that fight, but it's also an unquantifiable feat, they were all getting blasted away, nobody scales to whatever that would yield.
For your second question, I swear to god that I was asking the same to myself today, it was never stated so the only way is through scaling to cell Jr. and cell Jrs scale to piccolo, trunks and vegeta, and trunks and vegeta scale to cell Jrs in regular SSJ. Now this may be circular scaling and doesn't make sense, for them to scale above semi cell in regular SSJ, but I figured it out, Vegeta and trunks surpassed their previous SSJ grade 2 forms in SSJ since they were using regular SSJ to fight instead of grade 2.
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Sad, then it'd only be applicable to anime only versions, and as for the second point, if they're resisting the power Cell is outputting equally to how much Piccolo is resisting it, would that not mean they're comparable to him due to how scaling works in Dragon Ball?
That makes sense, but the Cell Jr.'s could've been holding back to play with them rather than immediately go all out to kill them, or they could've just killed the humans in seconds. I don't know if that means Piccolo is legit on par with Trunks and Vegeta after a year in the Time Chamber. I'd probably have a "possibly" or "likely" there.
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Nah they were all weakened and barely standing, I don't think scaling them to piccolo's full power makes sense.
Trunks and Vegeta were stated by cell to be able to put up a fight, piccolo slapped them cell juniors, he definitely scales he did really well just like vegeta and trunks, I'm pretty sure he was still standing when Gohan went tantrum mode.
Nullflowerblush
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The only ones capable of even fighting back against the Juniors were Vegeta and Trunks, as they were equally matched.
Goku would have been a big help, but he was tuckered out from his fight with Cell prior.
Everybody else were getting folded.
Goku would have been a big help, but he was tuckered out from his fight with Cell prior.
Everybody else were getting folded.
Vizer04
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Piccolo too
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So, dogi dogi absorbed fu>>ssb gogeta/ssj4lb xeno gogeta=ssj4lb xeno vegito=dark king fu=ssb vegito
Vietthai96
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Poor Vegeta, that all i wanted to say
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Ssj3 cumber was also able to grapple with ssj4lb broly, who has immeasureable LS.
Dogi Dogi was able to break dark king fu out of time labrinth which means dogi dogi>dark king fu=ssj4lb vegito
Dogi Dogi was able to break dark king fu out of time labrinth which means dogi dogi>dark king fu=ssj4lb vegito
Vietthai96
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No Dogi Dogi break Fu out of Time Labyrinth is hax feat, more specifically it is Power Null. But well considering Toki Tokk have feat of Power Null Beerus Hakai Energy, and Dogi Dogi is a dark version of Toki Toki, it is not surprising
Nullflowerblush
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My mind is going to shatter if Heroes ends up being Low 1-C.
ZetaMarishi
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Hey, if anything Heroes would probably be the best for it, honestly.
That being said, jesus I really did kinda check out on Heroes for a while. That was kinda neat.
That being said, jesus I really did kinda check out on Heroes for a while. That was kinda neat.
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Nah. The fact that dark king fu needed to absorb dogi dogi to surpass the time patrollers and their CC counter parts shows that dogi dogi is at least comparable to dark king Fu, who is at least 2-B, after the revisions are done. Look at the scaling chain i wrote above. And time labrinth is just time stop. In dragon ball, time stop is usually overcome through raw power. So dogi dogi is 2-B.
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How do you know if heroes has a chance of become low complex multiversal?
