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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

I'm pretty sure that it was only stated Kid Buu is more dangerous than Buuhan or something along those lines, right? If it's just one statement then the other evidence would still greatly outweigh it, anime or not.
 
RinneItachi said:
I'm pretty sure that it was only stated Kid Buu is more dangerous than Buuhan or something along those lines, right? If it's just one statement then the other evidence would still greatly outweigh it, anime or not.
Click to expand...
That's in the manga, but no there are literal statements scaling and feats that make SSJ3 Goku and kid buu > Buuhan. In canon though kid buu is fodder.
 
They'd both get beaten by Super Buu alone.

The Buu Saga scaling chain (the one relevant to this discussion I mean) is something like Super Vegito>>>>>Buuhan>or=Base Vegito>>>>>Buutenks>>>Ultimate Gohan>>SSJ3 Gotenks>Super Buu>>SSJ3 Goku>or=Kid Buu.
 
Anime Super Saiyan Goku was able to defeat the fake Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan Vegeta was able to defeat the fake Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Piccolo, whose power is on par with their real counterparts
 
RinneItachi said:
They'd both get beaten by Super Buu alone.

The Buu Saga scaling chain (the one relevant to this discussion I mean) is something like Super Vegito>>>>>Buuhan>or=Base Vegito>>>>>Buutenks>>>Ultimate Gohan>>SSJ3 Gotenks>Super Buu>>SSJ3 Goku>or=Kid Buu.
Click to expand...
Correct. That applies to canon. But the anime has dumb stuff like SSJ3 Goku keeping up with buutenks, SSJ Goku and SSJ vegeta beating the gohan and gotenks clones, and kid buu having like 4 different statements of being the strongest.
 
The whole anime shit with kid Buu was nothing but Toei being inconsistent and stupid
You can say Kid Buu is Stronger than Super Buu in the anime but Buuhan and Buutenks outright challenge that argument
 
Also, I've heard a lot of times about how the Super Saiyan transformation multipliers (aside from SSJ1) aren't used because they're inconsistent, but can I get any examples of that? Cause I actually can't remember much.

One argument for SSJ2 may be that Gohan went from getting beaten up by Perfect Cell to stomping him with SSJ2, but that's not really inconsistent when you look at the details more thoroughly. Gohan wasn't fighting back, he was just taking the full brunt of Cell's attacks and didn't even get that injured. When he took a series of attacks that caused everyone aside from Goku, including Cell himself, to think Gohan had been killed, he just came out and was only moderately wounded. Gohan was also significantly stronger than Goku before even powering up, as Gohan easily kept up with the entire Goku Vs. Cell battle while most of the others couldn't, and Gohan himself believing Goku had been holding back because Gohan still thought Goku was stronger than him. On top of that, we know Gohan's power increases dramatically the angrier he is, and not only did he unlock SSJ2, he was obviously very enraged in that state, so much so that he became quite ruthless and even cruel, despite being a pacifist otherwise. Additionally, I'm pretty sure that it wasn't even that one-sided in Gohan's favor. Yeah he was stomping him for sure, but it's not like the gap was beneath comparison.
 
RinneItachi said:
Yeah he was stomping him for sure, but it's not like the gap was beneath comparison.
Click to expand...
It was.

Even if you wish to believe that Gohan refusing to fight back suddenly meant that he lowered his power for some indiscernible reason, Goku and the other Z-Fighter's reactions to Perfect Cell's full power suggests that they had never seen anything like it... aside from the ascended Super Saiyan. And even still, Gohan managed to stomp him effortlessly, before going onto one-shot a Power Weighted Cell -- which, according to the El Manga Legendario, is an increase ten-times stronger than that of the Second Grade Super Saiyan, but ehh... -- without even trying. Even after Cell blew himself up and came back a gavillion times stronger, Gohan was still able to defeat him with less than half of his full power.

The gap between Super Saiyan Gohan and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is like the gap between Buuhan and Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

EDIT:
RinneItachi said:
he was just taking the full brunt of Cell's attacks and didn't even get that injured.
Click to expand...
He took one blast unscathed and then was bullied.
 
So why cant we use like atleast 2x for multipliers as a conservative if we dont accept SSJ2 as 2x because the multiplier is seemingly far higher than that
 
TBH the only instance were they are inconsistent is in the Cell Games, after that nothing particularly goes against them.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
It was.

Even if you wish to believe that Gohan refusing to fight back suddenly meant that he lowered his power for some indiscernible reason, Goku and the other Z-Fighter's reactions to Perfect Cell's full power suggests that they had never seen anything like it... aside from the ascended Super Saiyan. And even still, Gohan managed to stomp him effortlessly, before going onto one-shot a Power Weighted Cell -- which, according to the El Manga Legendario, is an increase ten-times stronger than that of the Second Grade Super Saiyan, but ehh... -- without even trying. Even after Cell blew himself up and came back a gavillion times stronger, Gohan was still able to defeat him with less than half of his full power.

The gap between Super Saiyan Gohan and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is like the gap between Buuhan and Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

EDIT:

He took one blast unscathed and then was bullied.
Click to expand...
It really wasn't, and just saying I'm wrong doesn't make me wrong. People just remember it as more of a curbstomp than it actually was. After Gohan transforms and Cell begins to go all out, he lands a decent blow on Gohan, before getting hit, but he still keeps fighting, while Gohan blocks Cell's attacks despite being overconfident and wanting to humiliate him, and continues beating Cell up, with the later not going down nor needing to use regeneration. This continues on until Cell decides to use a Kamehameha. And when Gohan retaliates, he's clearly putting effort into it.

ae822355fed32a3b9438a5d50789d0ec.jpg


If it was so easy as just overpowering it with a regular Ki blast or something similar, he obviously would've done that, because as I said, his goal was to humiliate Cell, not fight with him.

The reason is actually quite discernible. I'm not sure how the Z Fighters reaction to his power is relevant honestly. Cell was already weakened when he used a similar transformation to Grade 3, anyways. Gohan also didn't cause what would normally be lethal damage to him there either, so I wouldn't describe it as a one-shot, he just made Cell throw up 18. Cell came back much stronger, yes, but using hyperbole to emphasize it is unnecessary as nothing implies it was even a 10x increase, let alone bigger than that. Gohan was getting overwhelmed until he began using his true full power, in addition to boosts from anger, the "cut in half" power thing is in reference to his believed power. Gohan was doubting himself because of the emotional weight from technically being the cause for Goku's death. And you disregarded the mention that Gohan would've had an increase from his rage on top of the transformation itself.

Lol, no it is not. The gap between Buuhan and SSJ3 Goku is absurdly massive, that's a massive false equivalence.

He wasn't unscathed from the blast actually, and most of the fight as a SSJ1 from the anime didn't happen. Even after he was bullied as you put it, he never sustained actually serious injuries, and I could still make an argument for him being suppressed.
 
BlastX said:
TBH the only instance were they are inconsistent is in the Cell Games, after that nothing particularly goes against them.
Click to expand...
So we used very vague reasoning and logic to determine that all of the transformation multipliers were unreliable because of already debatable inconsistencies from one fight, which was also before SSJ2 was a normal SSJ transformation in the story and was seemingly something exclusive to Gohan at the time, not to mention WAY before Toriyama told us what the multipliers were? Amazing.
 
Let us not forget what Vegeta did to Cui in Namek despite his power level only being 1.33x higher than him. One can vaporise another if their power level is about 2x higher or so.
 
Well those are power levels, which are extremely inconsistent and I fully agree can't be used outside of just saying "Well this guy must be somewhat stronger cause he has a higher power level". Power levels do not make sense to scale linearly for several reasons, implying they're exponential, but then you have multiplicative increases like Kaioken increasing their power levels by linear margins. It just doesn't make sense.
 
RinneItachi said:
he lands a decent blow on Gohan
Click to expand...
This one? The one Gohan very clearly no-sold?
RinneItachi said:
Gohan blocks Cell's attacks despite being overconfident and wanting to humiliate him
Click to expand...
Precisely.
If he wanted Cell dead, he would have destroyed him already, but he wanted him to break down and suffer.

If you are suggesting that Gohan had to block his attacks, then you are sorely mistaken.
RinneItachi said:
with the later not going down nor needing to use regeneration
Click to expand...
nor having the opportunity to regenerate*

You have to remember, Regeneration is a very taxing process on Namekians and Cells alike. The only reason Cell needed a Senzu at the beginning of the fight is because that massive... wound Goku gave him that he healed, and later on, we see Cell is visibly pained by the healing process and is left out of breath afterward.

A single punch caused him to writhe in pain, and the second knocked his lights out, with Cell very apparently heavily injured.
  • Cell even makes note of the fact that it was done with just two punches, further emphasizing the gap.
One kick sent Cell crashing into the ground and disoriented him.
RinneItachi said:
And when Gohan retaliates, he's clearly putting effort into it.
Click to expand...
You mean he looked angry?
I hate to burst your bubble, Romeo, but that's just how Super Saiyans look.

Also,
  1. Gohan prepared the blast while standing in a neutral position
  2. His blast instantly steamrolled over Cell
  3. He chuckled afterward
RinneItachi said:
If it was so easy as just overpowering it with a regular Ki blast or something similar, he obviously would've done that
Click to expand...
If we're being technical, a Kamehameha is just a sparkly energy blast anyway. The strength of it is one-to-one with that of its user in its base state -- no charging up which Gohan didn't. -- and, the Daizenshuu even claims that anybody with basic ki control can utilize the technique.
RinneItachi said:
Gohan also didn't cause what would normally be lethal damage to him there either, so I wouldn't describe it as a one-shot
Click to expand...
One kick -- a seemingly casual one, I might add -- not only cracked his exoskeleton -- something no one has done up until this point -- but also wracked his brain so much that he ended up regurgitating Android 18. This is about as close to a one-shot as you can get without actually incapacitating your opponent.

All the while, Gohan is just completely nonchalant.

The only time he actually got serious was when Cell threatened to self-destruct and blow up the planet.
RinneItachi said:
boosts from anger
Click to expand...
Everybody makes this argument, but nobody backs it up.

Gohan was not angry during the battle, at least not enough to constitute any kind of boost. This is not some kind of Raditz Saga scenario, when he became angry and unleashed his true potential for a moment. Super Saiyan 2 is his true potential moment, just extended.

He was cocky and sadistic. Anger was the trigger for the form, but he was very clearly not angry. Even after Cell came back, nope.
His engagement with Cell's Solar Kamehameha was not born of anger, but newfound confidence.
RinneItachi said:
the "cut in half" power thing is in reference to his believed power
Click to expand...
He states -- not comments -- that he lost half his ki. Goku does not reject this statement, and Piccolo further confirms he was weakened.
RinneItachi said:
Gohan was getting overwhelmed until he began using his true full power
Click to expand...
He was overwhelmed, but he stood his ground. Standing his ground while subconsciously holding back, in fact.
Once had the chance to let loose, he -- and I cannot stress this enough -- instantly destroyed him.

These are all supported by:
Gohan curbstomped Cell during this fight, much more than Vegeta to Cui, or Frieza to Goku, or Cell to Piccolo.

The only way to argue for Super Saiyan 2 being only two-times stronger than its original form is by arguing that the gap between a suppressed Perfect Cell, a full power Perfect Cell, a Power Weighted Cell, and Super Perfect Cell is less than two-times.
RinneItachi said:
Even after he was bullied as you put it, he never sustained actually serious injuries
Click to expand...
We have these glass-like marbles in our heads called eyes.
They are really nifty.
They can reflect light from our environment into our brains.
Through that, we can process visual information.
Could you process some of this, please?
It would be worth your while.
BlastX said:
TBH the only instance were they are inconsistent is in the Cell Games, after that nothing particularly goes against them.
Click to expand...
prolly 'cause super saiyan 2 is hardly used in the buu saga
 
And people wonder why they mainly use ssj2 as the main non god form in super lol


I mean hell ssj2 trunks in the super manga stomped the hell out of Daborra when he was fighting on par with him in ssj and latter fought ssj3 Goku in a full power ssj2 form and forced him to go god just to knock him out
 
Spinoirr said:
And people wonder why they mainly use ssj2 as the main non god form in super lol


I mean hell ssj2 trunks in the super manga stomped the hell out of Daborra when he was fighting on par with him in ssj and latter fought ssj3 Goku in a full power ssj2 form and forced him to go god just to knock him out
Click to expand...
Goku also uses SSJ2 a lot in super.
Nullflowerblush said:
Just the Super Exciting Guide.

One of the reasons the Super Saiyan multiplier was accepted was because it was stated in both the Super Exciting Guide and the Daizenshuu, whereas the other two are exclusive to the former.
Click to expand...
Dragon ball wiki sourced daizenshuu for saying that SSJ2 is 2x SSJ not just the super exciting guide.
 
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