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Anime continuity kid buu and SSJ3 Goku > Buuhan, correct?
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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
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Based off of the statements yes even though it's stupid.
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Stupid is an understatement, but there's a lot of evidence supporting it regardless.
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I'm pretty sure that it was only stated Kid Buu is more dangerous than Buuhan or something along those lines, right? If it's just one statement then the other evidence would still greatly outweigh it, anime or not.
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That's in the manga, but no there are literal statements scaling and feats that make SSJ3 Goku and kid buu > Buuhan. In canon though kid buu is fodder.
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They'd both get beaten by Super Buu alone.
The Buu Saga scaling chain (the one relevant to this discussion I mean) is something like Super Vegito>>>>>Buuhan>or=Base Vegito>>>>>Buutenks>>>Ultimate Gohan>>SSJ3 Gotenks>Super Buu>>SSJ3 Goku>or=Kid Buu.
The Buu Saga scaling chain (the one relevant to this discussion I mean) is something like Super Vegito>>>>>Buuhan>or=Base Vegito>>>>>Buutenks>>>Ultimate Gohan>>SSJ3 Gotenks>Super Buu>>SSJ3 Goku>or=Kid Buu.
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Anime Super Saiyan Goku was able to defeat the fake Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan Vegeta was able to defeat the fake Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Piccolo, whose power is on par with their real counterparts
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Correct. That applies to canon. But the anime has dumb stuff like SSJ3 Goku keeping up with buutenks, SSJ Goku and SSJ vegeta beating the gohan and gotenks clones, and kid buu having like 4 different statements of being the strongest.
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kid buu being stronger than buuhan is like saying 5 - 3 = 10.
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K then. Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan.
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Also, I've heard a lot of times about how the Super Saiyan transformation multipliers (aside from SSJ1) aren't used because they're inconsistent, but can I get any examples of that? Cause I actually can't remember much.
One argument for SSJ2 may be that Gohan went from getting beaten up by Perfect Cell to stomping him with SSJ2, but that's not really inconsistent when you look at the details more thoroughly. Gohan wasn't fighting back, he was just taking the full brunt of Cell's attacks and didn't even get that injured. When he took a series of attacks that caused everyone aside from Goku, including Cell himself, to think Gohan had been killed, he just came out and was only moderately wounded. Gohan was also significantly stronger than Goku before even powering up, as Gohan easily kept up with the entire Goku Vs. Cell battle while most of the others couldn't, and Gohan himself believing Goku had been holding back because Gohan still thought Goku was stronger than him. On top of that, we know Gohan's power increases dramatically the angrier he is, and not only did he unlock SSJ2, he was obviously very enraged in that state, so much so that he became quite ruthless and even cruel, despite being a pacifist otherwise. Additionally, I'm pretty sure that it wasn't even that one-sided in Gohan's favor. Yeah he was stomping him for sure, but it's not like the gap was beneath comparison.
One argument for SSJ2 may be that Gohan went from getting beaten up by Perfect Cell to stomping him with SSJ2, but that's not really inconsistent when you look at the details more thoroughly. Gohan wasn't fighting back, he was just taking the full brunt of Cell's attacks and didn't even get that injured. When he took a series of attacks that caused everyone aside from Goku, including Cell himself, to think Gohan had been killed, he just came out and was only moderately wounded. Gohan was also significantly stronger than Goku before even powering up, as Gohan easily kept up with the entire Goku Vs. Cell battle while most of the others couldn't, and Gohan himself believing Goku had been holding back because Gohan still thought Goku was stronger than him. On top of that, we know Gohan's power increases dramatically the angrier he is, and not only did he unlock SSJ2, he was obviously very enraged in that state, so much so that he became quite ruthless and even cruel, despite being a pacifist otherwise. Additionally, I'm pretty sure that it wasn't even that one-sided in Gohan's favor. Yeah he was stomping him for sure, but it's not like the gap was beneath comparison.
Nullflowerblush
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It was.
Even if you wish to believe that Gohan refusing to fight back suddenly meant that he lowered his power for some indiscernible reason, Goku and the other Z-Fighter's reactions to Perfect Cell's full power suggests that they had never seen anything like it... aside from the ascended Super Saiyan. And even still, Gohan managed to stomp him effortlessly, before going onto one-shot a Power Weighted Cell -- which, according to the El Manga Legendario, is an increase ten-times stronger than that of the Second Grade Super Saiyan, but ehh... -- without even trying. Even after Cell blew himself up and came back a gavillion times stronger, Gohan was still able to defeat him with less than half of his full power.
The gap between Super Saiyan Gohan and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is like the gap between Buuhan and Super Saiyan 3 Goku.
EDIT:
He took one blast unscathed and then was bullied.
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right lol
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It really wasn't, and just saying I'm wrong doesn't make me wrong. People just remember it as more of a curbstomp than it actually was. After Gohan transforms and Cell begins to go all out, he lands a decent blow on Gohan, before getting hit, but he still keeps fighting, while Gohan blocks Cell's attacks despite being overconfident and wanting to humiliate him, and continues beating Cell up, with the later not going down nor needing to use regeneration. This continues on until Cell decides to use a Kamehameha. And when Gohan retaliates, he's clearly putting effort into it.
If it was so easy as just overpowering it with a regular Ki blast or something similar, he obviously would've done that, because as I said, his goal was to humiliate Cell, not fight with him.
The reason is actually quite discernible. I'm not sure how the Z Fighters reaction to his power is relevant honestly. Cell was already weakened when he used a similar transformation to Grade 3, anyways. Gohan also didn't cause what would normally be lethal damage to him there either, so I wouldn't describe it as a one-shot, he just made Cell throw up 18. Cell came back much stronger, yes, but using hyperbole to emphasize it is unnecessary as nothing implies it was even a 10x increase, let alone bigger than that. Gohan was getting overwhelmed until he began using his true full power, in addition to boosts from anger, the "cut in half" power thing is in reference to his believed power. Gohan was doubting himself because of the emotional weight from technically being the cause for Goku's death. And you disregarded the mention that Gohan would've had an increase from his rage on top of the transformation itself.
Lol, no it is not. The gap between Buuhan and SSJ3 Goku is absurdly massive, that's a massive false equivalence.
He wasn't unscathed from the blast actually, and most of the fight as a SSJ1 from the anime didn't happen. Even after he was bullied as you put it, he never sustained actually serious injuries, and I could still make an argument for him being suppressed.
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So we used very vague reasoning and logic to determine that all of the transformation multipliers were unreliable because of already debatable inconsistencies from one fight, which was also before SSJ2 was a normal SSJ transformation in the story and was seemingly something exclusive to Gohan at the time, not to mention WAY before Toriyama told us what the multipliers were? Amazing.
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Well those are power levels, which are extremely inconsistent and I fully agree can't be used outside of just saying "Well this guy must be somewhat stronger cause he has a higher power level". Power levels do not make sense to scale linearly for several reasons, implying they're exponential, but then you have multiplicative increases like Kaioken increasing their power levels by linear margins. It just doesn't make sense.
Nullflowerblush
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This one? The one Gohan very clearly no-sold?
Precisely.
If he wanted Cell dead, he would have destroyed him already, but he wanted him to break down and suffer.
If you are suggesting that Gohan had to block his attacks, then you are sorely mistaken.
nor having the opportunity to regenerate*
You have to remember, Regeneration is a very taxing process on Namekians and Cells alike. The only reason Cell needed a Senzu at the beginning of the fight is because that massive... wound Goku gave him that he healed, and later on, we see Cell is visibly pained by the healing process and is left out of breath afterward.
A single punch caused him to writhe in pain, and the second knocked his lights out, with Cell very apparently heavily injured.
- Cell even makes note of the fact that it was done with just two punches, further emphasizing the gap.
You mean he looked angry?
I hate to burst your bubble, Romeo, but that's just how Super Saiyans look.
Also,
- Gohan prepared the blast while standing in a neutral position
- His blast instantly steamrolled over Cell
- He chuckled afterward
If we're being technical, a Kamehameha is just a sparkly energy blast anyway. The strength of it is one-to-one with that of its user in its base state -- no charging up which Gohan didn't. -- and, the Daizenshuu even claims that anybody with basic ki control can utilize the technique.
One kick -- a seemingly casual one, I might add -- not only cracked his exoskeleton -- something no one has done up until this point -- but also wracked his brain so much that he ended up regurgitating Android 18. This is about as close to a one-shot as you can get without actually incapacitating your opponent.
All the while, Gohan is just completely nonchalant.
The only time he actually got serious was when Cell threatened to self-destruct and blow up the planet.
Everybody makes this argument, but nobody backs it up.
Gohan was not angry during the battle, at least not enough to constitute any kind of boost. This is not some kind of Raditz Saga scenario, when he became angry and unleashed his true potential for a moment. Super Saiyan 2 is his true potential moment, just extended.
He was cocky and sadistic. Anger was the trigger for the form, but he was very clearly not angry. Even after Cell came back, nope.
His engagement with Cell's Solar Kamehameha was not born of anger, but newfound confidence.
He states -- not comments -- that he lost half his ki. Goku does not reject this statement, and Piccolo further confirms he was weakened.
He was overwhelmed, but he stood his ground. Standing his ground while subconsciously holding back, in fact.
Once had the chance to let loose, he -- and I cannot stress this enough -- instantly destroyed him.
These are all supported by:
- "Having angered the explosively more powerful Gohan, the once invincible Cell can do nothing but be one-sidedly attacked."
- "The difference in their powers was far too clear."
- "Gohan's Kamehameha steamrolls over Cell's Kamehameha."
The only way to argue for Super Saiyan 2 being only two-times stronger than its original form is by arguing that the gap between a suppressed Perfect Cell, a full power Perfect Cell, a Power Weighted Cell, and Super Perfect Cell is less than two-times.
We have these glass-like marbles in our heads called eyes.
They are really nifty.
They can reflect light from our environment into our brains.
Through that, we can process visual information.
Could you process some of this, please?
It would be worth your while.
prolly 'cause super saiyan 2 is hardly used in the buu saga
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SSJ2 is not a 2x multiplier, and what flower man is saying is right, cell got shit slapped curbstomped roasted on a stick destroyed by SSJ2 Gohan no difficulty.
Nullflowerblush
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That's fair.
Majin Buu to Majin Vegeta?
Majin Buu to Majin Vegeta?
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Ye, probably more like it.
I'd also throw 50% Freeza to KKx10 Goku in the mix.
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Actually the gap between SSJ gohan and SSJ2 gohan is above 100x LOL.
Vietthai96
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It never stated or anything similar refering to SSJ2 is x2 SSJ1, those are just fan headcanon
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That is false, it's stated in the daizenshuu and super exciting guide that it's a 2x multiplier, so it's not head canon, but it's also not consistent with the show.
Spinoirr
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And people wonder why they mainly use ssj2 as the main non god form in super lol
I mean hell ssj2 trunks in the super manga stomped the hell out of Daborra when he was fighting on par with him in ssj and latter fought ssj3 Goku in a full power ssj2 form and forced him to go god just to knock him out
I mean hell ssj2 trunks in the super manga stomped the hell out of Daborra when he was fighting on par with him in ssj and latter fought ssj3 Goku in a full power ssj2 form and forced him to go god just to knock him out
Nullflowerblush
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Just the Super Exciting Guide.
One of the reasons the Super Saiyan multiplier was accepted was because it was stated in both the Super Exciting Guide and the Daizenshuu, whereas the other two are exclusive to the former.
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Goku also uses SSJ2 a lot in super.
Dragon ball wiki sourced daizenshuu for saying that SSJ2 is 2x SSJ not just the super exciting guide.
Nullflowerblush
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The Daizenshuu just states that, "This form has power that surpasses Super Saiyan in all ways."
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Bro... did you like... memorize the Daizenshuu?
Nullflowerblush
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Oh, no.
illmaticking.wordpress.com
Dragon Ball References
Dragon Ball References >Main Sources Kanzenshuu Website Daizex El Manga Legendario Files Kanzentai Daizenshuu Volumes(Some are missing) Herms DB Guide Translation Collection Kanzenshuu Movie Gui…
illmaticking.wordpress.com
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You didn't memorize the Daizenshuu... you memorized ALL THE GUIDES?!Oh, no.
Dragon Ball References
Dragon Ball References >Main Sources Kanzenshuu Website Daizex El Manga Legendario Files Kanzentai Daizenshuu Volumes(Some are missing) Herms DB Guide Translation Collection Kanzenshuu Movie Gui…
Also thank you for this it's helpful.
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The problem will be to get them accepted.
Nullflowerblush
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vs battle attempts to get dragon ball z to mftl+ using multipliers part 4
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DB upgrade attempt immediately gets Hakai'd #9,347
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That's an easy task to achieve.
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