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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
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Only a few villains in the original Dragon Ball even aside from Pilaf I'd say are below Granolah. Otherwise, I think a large majority of main antagonists are much better. He's literally what I'd expect to get from some guy's fanfiction OC. Hell, I'd prefer it if Toyotaro made ******* Xicor canon over it.
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Yeah, I don't think in canon DB we have explored members of races affected by the destructiveness of Frieza or the Saiyans so Granolah wanting revenge for what happened to his race makes sense.
What does bother me is how utterly quick Granolah became so strong, like it was so out of the blue that I would've sworn I was reading a parody
What does bother me is how utterly quick Granolah became so strong, like it was so out of the blue that I would've sworn I was reading a parody
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Cell gang ftw
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Ok I won't argue heavily about subjective opinions but could you actually give reasoning for them instead of just saying I'm wrong?
His motive is understandable but that doesn't make it remotely original. He hates Saiyan's because they killed his race. That revenge trope is one of the most commonly done backstories in general. Even in Dragon Ball it isn't remotely unique. As for his design...I mean, I just don't really care for it. Originally I thought he looked fairly cool, then I saw the colored version and began to dislike him even in that regard.
While we haven't directly seen it, we already know fully well what the Saiyan's did. Besides which, we've already been getting so much shit focused on the Saiyan's lately that it's starting to become kind of annoying. It's like the story is literally just about Saiyan's nowadays. The entire Broly movie was focused around it, there were plenty of references to the Saiyan race and their powers in the Moro arc. And now the current arc is half focused on simply the past of the Saiyan's. We already know they did evil deeds, and the idea of people wanting revenge for those deeds has already been slightly explored off-canon, but even disregarding that completely, it just isn't a very unique idea when revenge is so common as a motive. Literally anyone can come up with that as an idea for an antagonist. Of course, I'm not expecting each antagonist to be some highly well-thought out or relatable villain. Most Dragon Ball villains aren't, anyways. But revenge is just so boring.
I mean, that's just one hypothetical option you listed that makes the plot convenience of the new set of Dragon Ball's sound well written, but there were plenty of choices available. Instead, Toyotaro wanted to go with literally the easiest option to make his main antagonist OC "SO OMEGA SUPER ULTRA ULTIMATE MAXIMUM POWERFUL EVEN GOKU AND VEGETA GET BEATEN!!!". And remember the actual new set of Dragon Ball's themselves. Literally 2 Dragon Ball's that took basically no time for Granolah to spend collecting. He went from fodder to the strongest relevant character in literally one chapter via a massive and completely absurd plot device that doesn't even make sense (a random old ass Namekian making Dragon Ball's that can boost someone to instant god tier status via shortening their life span is totally reasonable, I guess).
His motive is understandable but that doesn't make it remotely original. He hates Saiyan's because they killed his race. That revenge trope is one of the most commonly done backstories in general. Even in Dragon Ball it isn't remotely unique. As for his design...I mean, I just don't really care for it. Originally I thought he looked fairly cool, then I saw the colored version and began to dislike him even in that regard.
While we haven't directly seen it, we already know fully well what the Saiyan's did. Besides which, we've already been getting so much shit focused on the Saiyan's lately that it's starting to become kind of annoying. It's like the story is literally just about Saiyan's nowadays. The entire Broly movie was focused around it, there were plenty of references to the Saiyan race and their powers in the Moro arc. And now the current arc is half focused on simply the past of the Saiyan's. We already know they did evil deeds, and the idea of people wanting revenge for those deeds has already been slightly explored off-canon, but even disregarding that completely, it just isn't a very unique idea when revenge is so common as a motive. Literally anyone can come up with that as an idea for an antagonist. Of course, I'm not expecting each antagonist to be some highly well-thought out or relatable villain. Most Dragon Ball villains aren't, anyways. But revenge is just so boring.
I mean, that's just one hypothetical option you listed that makes the plot convenience of the new set of Dragon Ball's sound well written, but there were plenty of choices available. Instead, Toyotaro wanted to go with literally the easiest option to make his main antagonist OC "SO OMEGA SUPER ULTRA ULTIMATE MAXIMUM POWERFUL EVEN GOKU AND VEGETA GET BEATEN!!!". And remember the actual new set of Dragon Ball's themselves. Literally 2 Dragon Ball's that took basically no time for Granolah to spend collecting. He went from fodder to the strongest relevant character in literally one chapter via a massive and completely absurd plot device that doesn't even make sense (a random old ass Namekian making Dragon Ball's that can boost someone to instant god tier status via shortening their life span is totally reasonable, I guess).
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Boring because it's done constantly and is repetitive, you mean? I don't know how simply mentioning his backstory itself somehow makes sense in countering my point when the point is that his backstory is completely unoriginal. It's literally just another revenge story among hundreds if not even thousands of others. And mentioning the other villains is irrelevant when we're talking about only one reason why I think Granolah is poorly done. His intentions and motives are one part of his character, and there is much more that can be discussed when comparing others with him.
ZetaMarishi
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Dragon Ball villains in general really aren't the most original things at the end of the day, but what they tend to be is entertaining. Granolah, I think, is mostly fine as a character and is a neat reference to Kintoki, but is still by far the weakest part of this arc. Like, I'm still not the biggest fan of him being able to get a super buff from the dragon, even if the cost theoretically does mean a lot in his life.
Personally, though, I'm going to wait and see. More than likely they're just going to lose, have to beat him up later, and something else'll happen, but overall I'm still going to wait and see. There's still an arc to tell. There's still other people that I've liked in this arc so far that can still end up doing stuff. There's still room for growth, and some kind of neat concepts thrown in.
But man, that wish really was just lazy. Could've just been like "Hey, I can't do this for you but I know of some place you can do it" and then he spends a chapter doing that thing. That would've made more sense to me. But oh well.
Personally, though, I'm going to wait and see. More than likely they're just going to lose, have to beat him up later, and something else'll happen, but overall I'm still going to wait and see. There's still an arc to tell. There's still other people that I've liked in this arc so far that can still end up doing stuff. There's still room for growth, and some kind of neat concepts thrown in.
But man, that wish really was just lazy. Could've just been like "Hey, I can't do this for you but I know of some place you can do it" and then he spends a chapter doing that thing. That would've made more sense to me. But oh well.
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Well I mean Goku said he hasn’t even mastered it yet and Granola did say he pretty much waited for Goku to get lose stamina with CUI
Vietthai96
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And previous chapter he fight like crazy in CUI for a very long time with Moro. Well Toyotaro for you
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Well he mastered it 2 times already, once against Jiren they said he mastered it but it turns out it was just him unlocking the completed version, then once again they said he mastered it vs moro but it turns out he can just go into UI at will now and he can still improve it, now they nerfed it to hell by making the "completed" thing bullshit and it still has the same weaknesses as sign and gets weaker overtime which is shit.
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His motives being unoriginal doesn't make it bad or boring. I've personally never seen two MC's getting wrecked for the actions of their ancestors. Aso, despite knowing that the Saiyans are the ones who killed his people, they're not his main target. Instead he's looking at the bigger picture and targeting Frieza. I like that about him.
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I personally really like Granolah.
Though I do agree that the method with which he acquired his power was lazy and rushed. That's not necessarily a flaw with his character, though. It's more of a Toyotaro problem.
Though I do agree that the method with which he acquired his power was lazy and rushed. That's not necessarily a flaw with his character, though. It's more of a Toyotaro problem.
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Him having "better motives" than other Dragon Ball villains doesn't change anything though? You're just sticking on that and acting as if it's the only thing I'm talking about when saying he's a bad antagonist. Literally said in my last reply that it's just one part of his character, and I'm not just comparing that in specific to the other villains. Completely ignored what I said.
Literally any of the old DBZ villains are more original than Granolah, not in their motives specifically, but in other respects.
It does though. A motive literally just being one of the most standardized character motivation's around is boring, Revenge has literally been done hundreds if not even thousands of times across fiction, as I've said before. Everyone has done a revenge story. Seeing another one is just not interesting anymore. Now yes, I do like how it ties in with Goku and Vegeta who obviously aren't the same, but I'm not talking specifically about that part of the story, I'm talking about Granolah as a character, Goku and Vegeta not being evil but still being viewed the same as their ancestor's is cool and all, but that's not actually a part of Granolah's character, it's just a result of his character and a part of the story. He was actually more so desiring revenge directly on the Saiyan's than Frieza and was straight up saying something like "Well I guess I can settle for him since he's related to the attack", I don't think he's focused on Frieza, more so just the idea that he should kill Frieza too after the Saiyan's.
A Toyotaro problem that reflects in one of the flaws of his character. A flaw in a character is caused by a problem of the author, you're talking about Granolah as if he's a real person.
Literally any of the old DBZ villains are more original than Granolah, not in their motives specifically, but in other respects.
It does though. A motive literally just being one of the most standardized character motivation's around is boring, Revenge has literally been done hundreds if not even thousands of times across fiction, as I've said before. Everyone has done a revenge story. Seeing another one is just not interesting anymore. Now yes, I do like how it ties in with Goku and Vegeta who obviously aren't the same, but I'm not talking specifically about that part of the story, I'm talking about Granolah as a character, Goku and Vegeta not being evil but still being viewed the same as their ancestor's is cool and all, but that's not actually a part of Granolah's character, it's just a result of his character and a part of the story. He was actually more so desiring revenge directly on the Saiyan's than Frieza and was straight up saying something like "Well I guess I can settle for him since he's related to the attack", I don't think he's focused on Frieza, more so just the idea that he should kill Frieza too after the Saiyan's.
A Toyotaro problem that reflects in one of the flaws of his character. A flaw in a character is caused by a problem of the author, you're talking about Granolah as if he's a real person.
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If you break his entire character down to just "revenge", then sure. But the details around his revenge is what makes it interesting. Also, yes, his main focus is definitely Frieza. He was asking the Heaters for Frieza's location specifically, and against Goku he was saving his strength to face Frieza.
I also think the wish actually works in this case. Granolah doesn't have the potential to surpass Frieza within a short time, but he's too blinded by rage and impatient to train his entire life, so he looked for the easiest way to attain strength; with the Dragon Balls. Even sacrificing his life span in the end. Sure you could say it's lazy, but I feel like that was kind of the point.
I also think the wish actually works in this case. Granolah doesn't have the potential to surpass Frieza within a short time, but he's too blinded by rage and impatient to train his entire life, so he looked for the easiest way to attain strength; with the Dragon Balls. Even sacrificing his life span in the end. Sure you could say it's lazy, but I feel like that was kind of the point.
SirAlex09
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I like the fact that Dragonball is no longer depicting characters as black and white.
Frieza, Cell, Buu, Baby Vegeta, Super 17 and Omega Shenron are simply evil for the sake of having an evil antagonist.
Compare them to Madara /Aizen etc and you will realise how terrible DBZ/GT Villains are.
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For manga, there is a shockwave feat that needs to be calculated-
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Revenge isn't Granolah's character in a nutshell, nor did I say it was, but his backstory and intentions to get revenge are no doubt a large part of his character, which is what I dislike. The details as in what? Cause as I said before, the whole dilemma with him seeking revenge on Goku and Vegeta despite them not being evil isn't really a part of his character in specific. Because he didn't know there was Saiyan's alive still, and because he believes Frieza is stronger than them. It being lazy is just poor writing, plain and simple, idk how you'd justify it in any way. He jumped from fodder to god tier in a single chapter via making the quickest and easiest wish in the whole series.
This is an argument I expected to see. Now yes, it is nice to see villains that aren't simply evil because "they just are". Because relatable villains tend to be more likeable. But a villain just being not entirely evil doesn't automatically make him above characters that are evil. That's one aspect I prefer when it comes to said villains, in fact for a while my favorite villains in fiction were the non simplistically evil ones, but even then, there are plenty of those characters that start out likeable and get ruined later on, or just aren't written well overall. Either way, a good villain like Frieza can still be much better than a villain who has relatable motives and intentions. Because Frieza doesn't need any of that to be a good villain. He's good because of how evil he is. He's pure evil, he'll never change, he slaughters entire races on a whim because he simply feels like doing so. He cares about nothing and no one aside from himself. But even more than that, he's not simply someone who rampages around destroying everything in their path. He's an emperor. A cunning and meticulous one, at that. He doesn't dirty his own hands unless he deems it necessary. I could go on but we're not talking about Frieza. Cell and Buu are also good villains though. Cell being my favorite villain in the series so far (Goku Black comes in close though). As for comparing them to other series villains and saying they're bad by default because of that is not only something I disagree with, but especially when you're comparing them to who most people agree are the best villains in their own respective anime (Naruto and Bleach), although Madara being the best villain in Naruto isn't as agreed upon, but regardless the point stands.
This is an argument I expected to see. Now yes, it is nice to see villains that aren't simply evil because "they just are". Because relatable villains tend to be more likeable. But a villain just being not entirely evil doesn't automatically make him above characters that are evil. That's one aspect I prefer when it comes to said villains, in fact for a while my favorite villains in fiction were the non simplistically evil ones, but even then, there are plenty of those characters that start out likeable and get ruined later on, or just aren't written well overall. Either way, a good villain like Frieza can still be much better than a villain who has relatable motives and intentions. Because Frieza doesn't need any of that to be a good villain. He's good because of how evil he is. He's pure evil, he'll never change, he slaughters entire races on a whim because he simply feels like doing so. He cares about nothing and no one aside from himself. But even more than that, he's not simply someone who rampages around destroying everything in their path. He's an emperor. A cunning and meticulous one, at that. He doesn't dirty his own hands unless he deems it necessary. I could go on but we're not talking about Frieza. Cell and Buu are also good villains though. Cell being my favorite villain in the series so far (Goku Black comes in close though). As for comparing them to other series villains and saying they're bad by default because of that is not only something I disagree with, but especially when you're comparing them to who most people agree are the best villains in their own respective anime (Naruto and Bleach), although Madara being the best villain in Naruto isn't as agreed upon, but regardless the point stands.
Vietthai96
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We seriously discussing this, DB was never that deep and complex. We here to enjoy childhood and pure fighting
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I mean there's nothing with simplicity when done right, but even something simple should have some layer of complexity to give people a reason to come back
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I think Frieza and, I guess arguably, Majin Buu work is because even though they're evil for the sake of being evil they're entertainingly evil and you love to hate them for what they do to the main characters.
And the likes of Frieza are just plain terrifying
And the likes of Frieza are just plain terrifying
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Frieza just casually torturing kids, abusing a prince on the daily, kills your race and makes you world for him, mister commit genocide like you commit taux Freud.
Majin buu is your typical turn everyone into candy, kill a whole race one by one in a span of moments. Hey you kill people, they go to the after life to rest and enjoy heaven? Nah imma quickly teleport and terrorize the dead.
Majin buu is your typical turn everyone into candy, kill a whole race one by one in a span of moments. Hey you kill people, they go to the after life to rest and enjoy heaven? Nah imma quickly teleport and terrorize the dead.
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Torture kids? Dude he also kills kids for a living, Dende is a testament to that
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Sadness and sorrow plays
SirAlex09
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I think you refering to Zamasu, but I don't consider him evil. He is just a god that doesn't understand the ambivalence of mortals and genuinely thinks that his vision will achieve peace
But for some reason this series , all the trashtalk before and after fighting and the fighting itself makes it so addicting to watch. The characters all give off such a badass vibe.
If DBS improves their animation to JJK -Level, this show will be lit af
I also hope Toei doesn't copy and adapt the manga 100% but instead tries to improve its flaws. Toyotaro is by no means a god tier writer and he is recycling too many panels in his fighting scenes
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This man woke up and decided to spit facts.
Although I think that DBS Broly had animation that looked even better than JJK but yes, the point still stands.
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We got some insight on his character. Living with the sole Namekian survivor, being a bounty hunter for a living, still having flashbacks of 50 years ago. He's portrayed as a character that is caring and nice, but struggling past events. Then there's also details around his revenge, like the Saiyans survivors being good instead of evil. You could oversimplify every arc with this kind of logic. The details around his revenge is what makes the story.
That's quite literally the point though. Being fodder and blinded by rage made him look for the easiest way to gain strength, and that's with the Dragon Balls.
SirAlex09
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What's even better is that it helps the main protagonists with their respective character development. Vegeta developed some sort of self loathing of himself and the Saiyan race self at the end of the Moro Arc ( He even says they deserved their exstinction at the hands of Frieza) and Beerus is trying to teach him to let go of it and move forward in order to get stronger. Granolah is the perfect antagonist for that.
It's certainly not perfect and may even feel forced to some people but Toriyama/Toyotaro are certainly trying to get better at character development
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If this was any other serie, people would've loved it for those same reasons. Super isn't perfect, but people do seem to hate on it for little to no reason most of the time.
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