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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

Omegabronic said:
I mean....not reallt something we have any information to affirm it was finish, he at least didn't looked anything like his finish self in the tube

Plus "was complete" when exactly? How much time was spent honing him and how much time was just making his body?

More over, i don't want to lose sight


Gero said the same thing when first fighting Goku and Vegeta......it didn't turned out good for him, also, he says this in the context of them upgrading the data in real time via 13, so this proves more the capability of the computer to gather more data than Goku in this case


Yeah, but they are covering as in "how to surpass it to kill him" in which all other fighting styles would, by nescecity, need to be as much analysed as his to know exactlt how to use them to overcome his, and given the sheer number, them all in total would be more analysed than his
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Your last point literally just means the supercomputer literally thought the only way to surpass or match Goku in skill was to take more time to analyse a bunch of other hyper masters ontop of Goku's data. It doesn't think just copying Goku's data will be enough to reliably deal with Goku.

Goku was so skilled the computer didn't think Goku could match up

That doesn't make any sense but you get the idea

Given how well 13, 14, and 15 did against stronger Super Saiyans compared to 19 and 20, I think the 'all the data we need' is more legit. (For anime stuff ofc)
 
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XXBenShapiroXx said:
Your last point literally just means the supercomputer literally thought the only way to surpass or match Goku in skill was to take more time to analyse a bunch of other hyper masters ontop of Goku's data. It doesn't think just copying Goku's data will be enough to reliably deal with Goku.
Click to expand...
More like "better be 100% sure that it will be able to kill him with no mistakes" since all it was doing was trying to find ways to kill goku, plus much of that time was also for Cell to grow and develop his body, so it didn't really had a choice in that aspect, it need for cell to grow, and did stuff in the meantime

But yeah, Goku scales to a Super Computer + "i have all you have but more", that is true

XXBenShapiroXx said:
Goku was so skilled the computer didn't think Goku could match up
Click to expand...
Tbf, in the end he didn't and needed the Super Saiyan and spirit bomb combo to kill 13

But since the Computer was analysing him in real time, yeah, it is still a good feat to keep up with him

XXBenShapiroXx said:
Given how well 13, 14, and 15 did against stronger Super Saiyans compared to 19 and 20, I think the 'all the data we need' is more legit.
Click to expand...
They were being analysed in real time, it isn't a situation of them analysing their past data and improving it, they are using the data of them "now" to beat them, still an impressive feat, as i said, i agree with using it as "super computer" level justification, so don't you worry about that
 
Omegabronic said:
I mean....not reallt something we have any information to affirm it was finish, he at least didn't looked anything like his finish self in the tube

Plus "was complete" when exactly? How much time was spent honing him and how much time was just making his body?
Click to expand...
His literal body was done. Like, he literally was there as a larva. His physiology was done. And we know from Cell that once complete he was still a larva, because he had to grow in an egg underground when he force restarted to fit in the time machine. So the rest of the development is the data. Also, Cell says his completion is in twenty four years and that this isn't due to cells. He's complete. And we see this is the case, because, again, his physiology is complete. Cell also says that the reason Gero gave up is literally the amount of time, because synthesizing of his cells from those genetics was already done by Gero himself. Which means, again, the only thing left to do is finish honing Cell's body and the combat data. And, AGAIN, the genetics are the exact same as combat data too, so this means even if you want to argue the entire time it was just synthesizing more cells, that cellular synthesis is literally the synthesis of combat data.
Omegabronic said:
More over, i don't want to lose sight
Click to expand...
Of?
Omegabronic said:
Gero said the same thing when first fighting Goku and Vegeta......it didn't turned out good for him, also, he says this in the context of them upgrading the data in real time via 13, so this proves more the capability of the computer to gather more data than Goku in this case
Click to expand...
Not particularly.
Omegabronic said:
Yeah, but they are covering as in "how to surpass it to kill him" in which all other fighting styles would, by nescecity, need to be as much analysed as his to know exactlt how to use them to overcome his, and given the sheer number, them all in total would be more analysed than his
Click to expand...
Sure, more than just Goku's data was involved. But the main focus still by necessity was Goku, so this means a greater portion of that time was used on Goku specifically than anyone else. Even if it took them 15 years for everyone else and only 5 for Goku, it still means Goku individually is just hitting a much higher bracket. Also, this ignores how Goku was the main factor for these bots being made over time, long before any other data was introduced. The only reason other people's data was involved was because Gero and his Computer found it necessary/wanted to create the strongest thing possible to kill Goku specifically. For years before even that project he was dealing with Goku's information to specifically kill him and failing, which is why the Androids and Cell were even made, and it still took that time to really finish up and get the job done. So regardless his Supercomputer spent a sizable amount of time on Goku specifically.
 
RedReaper616 said:
His literal body was done. Like, he literally was there as a larva. His physiology was done. And we know from Cell that once complete he was still a larva, because he had to grow in an egg underground when he force restarted to fit in the time machine. So the rest of the development is the data. Also, Cell says his completion is in twenty four years and that this isn't due to cells. He's complete. And we see this is the case, because, again, his physiology is complete. Cell also says that the reason Gero gave up is literally the amount of time, because synthesizing of his cells from those genetics was already done by Gero himself. Which means, again, the only thing left to do is finish honing Cell's body and the combat data. And, AGAIN, the genetics are the exact same as combat data too, so this means even if you want to argue the entire time it was just synthesizing more cells, that cellular synthesis is literally the synthesis of combat data.
Click to expand...
And for Cell to grow up to adulthood to be able to fight at all......which we don't know how much time was needed specifically because of that

RedReaper616 said:
Of?
Click to expand...
deez nuts

RedReaper616 said:
Not particularly.
Click to expand...
.....why not?

RedReaper616 said:
Sure, more than just Goku's data was involved. But the main focus still by necessity was Goku, so this means a greater portion of that time was used on Goku specifically than anyone else. Even if it took them 15 years for everyone else and only 5 for Goku, it still means Goku individually is just hitting a much higher bracket.
Click to expand...
Yeah, duh, by the time of the saiyan Saga he was obviously more skilled than everyone else, that i am not contesting

RedReaper616 said:
Also, this ignores how Goku was the main factor for these bots being made over time, long before any other data was introduced. The only reason other people's data was involved was because Gero and his Computer found it necessary/wanted to create the strongest thing possible to kill Goku specifically. For years before even that project he was dealing with Goku's information to specifically kill him and failing, which is why the Androids and Cell were even made, and it still took that time to really finish up and get the job done. So regardless his Supercomputer spent a sizable amount of time on Goku specifically.
Click to expand...
I mean, yeah, all i am saying is that atributing the 20+ years as being specifically to try and analyse Goku, when many other factors, such as Cell's own growth, being a factor that would make it take longer no matter what is not really accurate
 
Omegabronic said:
More like "better be 100% sure that it will be able to kill him with no mistakes" since all it was doing was trying to find ways to kill goku, plus much of that time was also for Cell to grow and develop his body, so it didn't really had a choice in that aspect, it need for cell to grow, and did stuff in the meantime

But yeah, Goku scales to a Super Computer + "i have all you have but more", that is true


Tbf, in the end he didn't and needed the Super Saiyan and spirit bomb combo to kill 13

But since the Computer was analysing him in real time, yeah, it is still a good feat to keep up with him


They were being analysed in real time, it isn't a situation of them analysing their past data and improving it, they are using the data of them "now" to beat them, still an impressive feat, as i said, i agree with using it as "super computer" level justification, so don't you worry about that
Click to expand...
This is kinda semantics, we both agree he scales and we can go back and forth over shit that would really wouldn't make the feat any more impressive as it is, so let's focus on more important shit.
 
Omegabronic said:
And for Cell to grow up to adulthood to be able to fight at all......which we don't know how much time was needed specifically because of that
Click to expand...
...

RedReaper616 said:
His literal body was done. Like, he literally was there as a larva. His physiology was done. And we know from Cell that once complete he was still a larva, because he had to grow in an egg underground when he force restarted to fit in the time machine.
Click to expand...
When completed he didn't have an adult body. He was still in his larva/egg-like state, because when Cell "starts back at square one" (relative to after he's free of the incubator) he literally turns back into exactly that. Then he has to naturally grow and wait for 3 years, getting into his 4 legged form and then eventually Imperfect as he feeds on the bio-energy of others. Again, the rest was solely data and further adjustments.
 
Cell directly says research is underway when fighting Piccolo and says it won't be ready for 24 years. He doesn't mention anything about that time needing to be him growing physically.

Meaning it was the project of analyzing fight data that took 24 years.
 
RedReaper616 said:
...


When completed he didn't have an adult body. He was still in his larva/egg-like state, because when Cell "starts back at square one" (relative to after he's free of the incubator) he literally turns back into exactly that. Then he has to naturally grow and wait for 3 years, getting into his 4 legged form and then eventually Imperfect as he feeds on the bio-energy of others. Again, the rest was solely data and further adjustments.
Click to expand...
Huh.......no? I think it is pretty clear that the "completed" state is his adult body

Like, he was a fetus, literally, the process would need to have him actually grow up with good health no matter what, you cannot just ignore that part
 
XXBenShapiroXx said:
Cell directly says research is underway when fighting Piccolo and says it won't be ready for 24 years. He doesn't mention anything about that time needing to be him growing physically.

Meaning it was the project of analyzing fight data that took 24 years.
Click to expand...
I mean......yeah, they are still getting data to that day thanks to the robot spy, more data being gathered = more time needed to analyse it

His body needing to grow up is just an obvious fact, like.......he can't fight as a fetus
 
Omegabronic said:
Huh.......no? I think it is pretty clear that the "completed" state is his adult body

Like, he was a fetus, literally, the process would need to have him actually grow up with good health no matter what, you cannot just ignore that part
Click to expand...
Omega.
Cell literally reverts to his first/earliest free state.
This is a thing that happens.

And it's a larva-egg thing that burrows in the ground.

Meaning that the earliest free state he has after completion is a larva-egg thing that burrows into the ground.

Not the adult size weird bug man we know takes 3 years to prep outside of that.
 
Omegabronic said:
I mean......yeah, they are still getting data to that day thanks to the robot spy, more data being gathered = more time needed to analyse it

His body needing to grow up is just an obvious fact, like.......he can't fight as a fetus
Click to expand...
The only data that could've been gathered for the Cell Goku fought would be from Future Gohan. We don't know when he started fighting the androids, or when he got super saiyan. And future gohan didn't have tons of good training options, so he wouldn't be that far ahead of his kid self.

Besides, Cell gives the 24 year figure before mentioning the drones. That could mean the 24 years figure is the bare minimum
 
RedReaper616 said:
Omega.
Cell literally reverts to his first/earliest free state.
This is a thing that happens.
Click to expand...
Yeah, he still need to grow from a fetus to that

I consider that as his "adult" body if i wasn't clear before

RedReaper616 said:
And it's a larva-egg thing that burrows in the ground.

Meaning that the earliest free state he has after completion is a larva-egg thing that burrows into the ground.
Click to expand...
which proves that hia fetus state isn't complete at all, meaning that the time he took to grow out of that to become an......."larva egg thing" is counted as well

RedReaper616 said:
Not the adult size weird bug man we know takes 3 years to prep outside of that.
Click to expand...
his earlier state is a fetus, even with this he would still need time to grow out of being a fetus and into being a "bug"

XXBenShapiroXx said:
The only data that could've been gathered for the Cell Goku fought would be from Future Gohan. We don't know when he started fighting the androids, or when he got super saiyan. And future gohan didn't have tons of good training options, so he wouldn't be that far ahead of his kid self.
Click to expand...
I am talking about the scene in the present where Cell talks to Piccolo, in that he would still be evolving by getting more data, i was not talking about Future Cell since you were talking about him talking about present cell

XXBenShapiroXx said:
Besides, Cell gives the 24 year figure before mentioning the drones. That could mean the 24 years figure is the bare minimum
Click to expand...
FOr what exactly? The fighting data being analysed or for him to grow out of the Fetus stage?
 
Omegabronic said:
Yeah, he still need to grow from a fetus to that

I consider that as his "adult" body if i wasn't clear before


which proves that hia fetus state isn't complete at all, meaning that the time he took to grow out of that to become an......."larva egg thing" is counted as well


his earlier state is a fetus, even with this he would still need time to grow out of being a fetus and into being a "bug"


I am talking about the scene in the present where Cell talks to Piccolo, in that he would still be evolving by getting more data, i was not talking about Future Cell since you were talking about him talking about present cell


FOr what exactly? The fighting data being analysed or for him to grow out of the Fetus stage?
Click to expand...
Cell has no idea what data could possibly be gathered. 24 years isn't for just this timeline's cell.

Cell specifically says 'research', not growing, 'research'. This fetus stage is inconsequential in time since Cell never mentions it, where as the analyzing of data, the research, takes 24 years.

Cell isn't saying could be 24 years because whatever data he could get, nor does he mention the 24 years being because of his growth as a fetus.
 
Omegabronic said:
Yeah, he still need to grow from a fetus to that

I consider that as his "adult" body if i wasn't clear before
Click to expand...
You were not.
Omegabronic said:
which proves that hia fetus state isn't complete at all, meaning that the time he took to grow out of that to become an......."larva egg thing" is counted as well
Click to expand...
...
His literal physiology is seen to be complete in the tank, though. So this doesn't make sense.
Omegabronic said:
his earlier state is a fetus, even with this he would still need time to grow out of being a fetus and into being a "bug"
Click to expand...
Yes...A process that takes three years in an egg, which burrows in a ground after he was free. Meaning his physical form is good.
Omegabronic said:
I am talking about the scene in the present where Cell talks to Piccolo, in that he would still be evolving by getting more data, i was not talking about Future Cell since you were talking about him talking about present cell
Click to expand...
Present Cell is just Future Cell further down his personal timeline, so effectively the same thing. This is why he says "the only extra adjustment data he could've gotten was from Gohan." Because Cell originates from Future Trunks' timeline, where the only fighter alive is Future Gohan, as Trunks did not become a fighter until Gohan died, where we only know of one fight he lost so badly he went and time travelled. Further, Cell explicitly states they opted out of Trunks' data, because of the fact they found it redundant. And it obviously wasn't the Androids, because they already have that info. Logically, this means you're arguing the entire time for adjustments was spent on Future Gohan's combat data, which is inferior to Goku's, which means that you're still indirectly scaling Goku's data up by that much regardless.
 
You are getting hung up on something that's never even stated to be something that would take enough time to be noteworthy. We never see this 'adult feetus', we don't know what it looks like, for all we know it could look exactly the same as the feetus we see.

So I don't see any good reason for Goku not scaling, it's based on literally nothing.
 
XXBenShapiroXx said:
You are getting hung up on something that's never even stated to be something that would take enough time to be noteworthy. We never see this 'adult feetus', we don't know what it looks like, for all we know it could look exactly the same as the feetus we see.

So I don't see any good reason for Goku not scaling, it's based on literally nothing.
Click to expand...
When did i said Goku wouldn't scale? He does scale to Cell, what are you talking about?
 
ross-door.gif
 
Hasty12345 said:
… Unfortunately, I didn't come here to make friends. I knew the amount of backlash I would face trying to do this alone. I'm not one of those guys that goes with the popular, bowing there heads to a corrupt system. Call me whatever you want. Cringe or not I don't care. --Samlex1234
Click to expand...
Peak quote.
 
Krillin should get EG for catching up with SSB Goku with infinitely less training. No way we’re calling Goku a prodigy but not my boy Krillin.
 
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