Dragon Ball Super Broly Revisions

[Akreious]

So far, to me, it seems like the reasons to disagree with the OP is "Goku and Vegeta are always treated as equals" and "Goku and Vegeta were equals when they sparred".

The first one is... pretty wrong. Goku and Vegeta were equals as SSB in the U6 Tournament Arc. Goku was able to go Kaiokenx10. Goku at that point, at max power, was 10x as powerful as Vegeta.

Later, Vegeta and Trunks together was able to overpower Fused Zamasu's Halo Attack. Goku did it as well by his lonesome.

Goku in the ToP as a SSBKKx20 is equal to SSBE Vegeta. Vegeta was Ring Outed and Goku underwent his 3rd UI Transformation (Power boost there) and after that mastered Ultra Instinct (Another potential power boost).

Goku literally has a track record of being leagues above Vegeta not even needing to use DBS as an example.

Remember SSJ3? How Goku purposefully held back from using his max power? Or how about Goku coming out of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber in the Cell Saga? Goku at that point, even though he did less physical training, was irrefutably superior to Vegeta.

So, Goku limit broke after already being an equal with Vegeta prior.

A similar Limit Break allowed him from being stalemated as a SSB against Kale and Caulifla to messing with them in lesser forms. Post his 2nd Limit Break, he went from requiring Ultra Instinct to even scratch Jiren to forcing him to use enough power to show a true glimpse of his power whilst in SSB.

Ultra Instinct Limit Breaks are literally treated as "You jump several leagues ahead". His Blue form alone went from incapable of harming Jiren whatsoever to forcing him to use more power than at any point in the tournament prior.

 

[SuperDragoon978]

I'm not sure what "Goku gets a lot of power boosts" has to do with Goku and Vegeta being flat out shown to be equal twice since the tournament with no hint Goku was suppressing himself but ok. What's stopping Vegeta from having caught up to Goku since the ToP? Before UIO3 Vegeta was AHEAD of Goku. His SSBE was initially equal to post UIO2 Goku's KKSSBx20 but it powered up against GoD Toppo and presumably so did his other forms.

 

[Dragomer]

I'm not sure what "Goku gets a lot of power boosts" has to do with Goku and Vegeta being flat out shown to be equal twice since the tournament with no hint Goku was suppressing himself but ok. What's stopping Vegeta from having caught up to Goku since the ToP? Before UIO3 Vegeta was AHEAD of Goku. His SSBE was initially equal to post UIO2 Goku's KKSSBx20 but it powered up against GoD Toppo and presumably so did his other forms.

What stop him is him being said by Word of God as still trying to catch up.

No, Vegeta was never ahead, his SSJBE is equal to SSJBKK by word of god, the power up just mean that before that, he was still below SSJBKK, also rage boost and other emtional boost in DB are only temporary unless they induce a new form.

 

[ZERO7772]

I disagree. Goku is not above all god tier fighters is his freaking base sorry I can't accept this wank of Goku lately.

We didn't assume Base Goku was stronger than SSB Vegeta back in U6 when he fought Hit.

 

[Xerkser500]

@Omegas03

Ul was never mentioned or shown within the film, nor can Goku enter the form by his own will.

Yes it was. Only for a few seconds at best, but it was when Goku was fighting Broly.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

That white hair was a tease and nothing more. He never entered or used the power of UI.

 

[Xerkser500]

I'm pretty sure it being a tease is an understatement. It implies Goku was drawing on UI while getting kicked to the curb

 

[Peter1129]

It was just a tease. The light novel never mentioned silver hair or Ultra Instinct when Goku transformed into SSB.

 

[BlackeJan]

I disagree. Goku is not above all god tier fighters is his freaking base sorry I can't accept this wank of Goku lately.

We didn't assume Base Goku was stronger than SSB Vegeta back in U6 when he fought Hit.

Um what? Of course back then Base Goku wasn't stronger SSB Vegeta in the U6 arc. If it says that he's going toe to toe Ikari Broly who tanked a punch from SSG Vegeta then why is that so hard to be believable? Yet we accepted a SSJ Goku being stronger then his 1st SSG or how his SSB became as stronger then his 1st and 2nd UI

 

[TheFallenProfit]

Because both ssb goku and vegeta were equal against ssj broly which would be impossible if vegeta was weaker than goku and they were equal in power during the fusion dance despite the power equivalency concept was never explained to vegeta, and he wasnt toe to toe with ikaari broly, he was getting bodied by broly the whole fight and was only keeping up by using techniques and outsmarting broly with teleportation

Him surpassing ssg in ssj has long been retconned and debunked and nobody believes goku surpassed ui at all as there is no evidence for any if that nonsense

 

[DanielX7]

CryoTheMayo escribió:
"el hecho de que él directamente declara que goku y vegeta estaban un paso por encima de él al final de la pel├¡cula, desmiente tu reclamo"
Deja de decir esto. He visto a varias personas reclamar esta mentira descarada y est├í empezando a molestarme. Tengo la novela. He visto la pel├¡cula sub-subtitulada, demonios, incluso tengo la pel├¡cula doblada y Frieza no lo dice ni una sola vez. En el dub, afirma que Goku y Vegeta lo detienen a pesar de lo mucho que aumenta su poder de batalla y en el subgrupo declara que no quiere enfrentarse a Goku y Vegeta juntos (lo cual, si usa su cerebro, notar├í que dice esto después de presenciar la fusión) y que le gustar├¡a que un compa├▒ero lo ayudara.

"Excepto que no entrenó en absoluto, si era m├ís fuerte que entonces no enviar├¡a a sus soldados m├ís débiles para sacar las bolas de dragón por temor a que Goku y Vegeta lo sintieran"

???????????????????????????????? ┬┐Nunca has o├¡do hablar de t├ícticas? ┬┐Por qué Frieza querr├¡a molestar a Goku y Vegeta cuando la Tierra tiene todos sus aliados y vio a Ultra Instinct? Ni siquiera sabe si Goku ha aprendido a usarlo a voluntad. También est├í el caso de Beerus y Whis, quienes podr├¡an aliarse con ellos por varias razones.

"Ssb goku y vegeta fueron capaces de hacer retroceder a Broly un poco hasta que se retiraron, Freezer se volvió dorada y la presión de la forma lo empujó hacia atr├ís, pero Freezer nunca tuvo la ventaja contra Broly y estuvo en plena forma todo el tiempo"

Goku y Vegeta JUNTOS podr├¡an empujar a Broly un 'poquito'. Freezer solo podr├¡a derribar a Broly docenas de metros (con los talones de Broly clavados en el suelo), lo que sorprendió visiblemente a Broly.

Independientemente de cómo quieras enfocarte en la naturaleza de la novela, no puedes negar que Goku sintió que él y Vegeta NECESITAN retirarse y que Goku sintió que pod├¡a, de hecho, dejar a Frieza para distraer a Broly durante m├ís de una hora. La ├║nica razón por la que podr├¡a confiar en ello ser├¡a si Frieza fuera igual o mayor que él, Goku.

This!

 

[BlackeJan]

@TheFallenProfit

My man what r u talking about? We ALL believe that his SSJ surpassed his 1st SSG and it even says in his profile that his SSB surpassed his 2nd UI vs Jiren

 

[My_area]

Heavily disagreed,How can base Goku gets so strong when there is literally no mention of him being stromg by anyone a gap this big would never really be ignored in DB and would have been mentioned and I mean Goku base being above SSG Vegeta not only is really wrong and it will mess alot of things up,the gap between Goku and Vegeta was never this much and never would with the current direction DB is taking unless they change it

First of Base Goku and Vegeta were equally sparring,same goes for SSB Goku and Vegeta in the end of TOP and Vegeta would have known if Goku was holding back and Goku SSB and Vegeta SSB were even againat SSJ Broly saying SSB Goku was tired isn't right Goku got literally tons of beatings from Frieza on Namek yet his power was the same,Vegeta base got whooped by Jiren but Vegeta base power was still the same and I can use the same argument to upgrade Vegeta base to Low 2C due to him resisting Jiren punches but I didn't because some time we need to use common sense to dictate us whats right and whats wrong and not only be based on full facts and overthinking and it doesn't make sense for Goku to be this strong agaisnt Vegeta without any new ransformations

Sorry If I sound mad but I dont really like the Goku base>Vegeta SSG thing going on for days

 

[My_area]

His SSJ surpassing his first SSG is no and again there is no statement saying that at all and SSB Goku against Jiren being stronger than second UI is yes due to how Jiren mentions their attack being atronger

 

[Akreious]

"Heavily disagreed,How can base Goku gets so strong when there is literally no mention of him being stromg by anyone"

WoG

" a gap this big would never really be ignored in DB and would have been mentioned"

WoG says Goku is approaching the level of the Gods (Gods of Destruction most likely since he already surpassed the Kais). WoG also says Vegeta is trying to catch up to Goku. Whis in the past straight up says Vegeta is always at least a few steps behind Goku.

" I mean Goku base being above SSG Vegeta not only is really wrong and it will mess alot of things up"

Goku had a Limit Break after we saw that his SSBKK form equals Vegeta's SSBE form.

An UI Limit Break let Goku jump from requiring SSB to handle Caulifla and Kale to dominating them with his lesser forms.

"the gap between Goku and Vegeta was never this much and never would with the current direction DB is taking unless they change it"

It actually was this much plenty of times. Goku would've straight up eaten Vegeta alive back in Namek Saga. Goku after leaving the Hyperbolic Time Chamber in the Cell Arc is also stated to be superior to Vegeta and Trunks and that they're the ones with the best shot against Cell.

The heck is "The current direction of DB"? The current direction left off from the anime is how people can break their limits many times over and get stronger in doing so. Goku jumping leagues ahead of Vegeta just shows how much a single Limit Break could do in that case.

"First of Base Goku and Vegeta were equally sparring"

Emphasis on sparring.

"same goes for SSB Goku and Vegeta in the end of TOP"

Again, emphasis on sparring.

"and Vegeta would have known if Goku was holding back"

... How? People in Dragon Ball has been holding back their powers all the way back in early Namek Saga.

"Goku SSB and Vegeta SSB were even againat SSJ Broly"

That's more of a feat for SSJ Broly than anything. It just means that whatever advantage Goku had over Vegeta means squat in comparison to Broly's power.

"saying SSB Goku was tired isn't right Goku got literally tons of beatings from Frieza on Namek yet his power was the same"

I really have to question this here. Goku got tons of beatings from Frieza and visibly became more defeated and the battle became more one-sided the more Goku got beat down. There really isn't any argument for his power staying the same, and him going Super Saiyan basically negated him being tired by sheer rage.

"Vegeta base got whooped by Jiren but Vegeta base power was still the same"

Not sure how this is relevant.

"I can use the same argument to upgrade Vegeta base to Low 2C"

I'd honestly like to see you attempt this since I for the life of me could not right now.

"due to him resisting Jiren punches"

How is getting 100% beat down "resisting" his punches? What resistance is there if Jiren just plowed through him?

"we need to use common sense to dictate us whats right and whats wrong"

Bringing up "common sense" tends to be a terrible move since "Common Sense" on the net usually involves Fortnite dances and taking lots of Ls nowadays.

"not only be based on full facts and overthinking and it doesn't make sense for Goku to be this strong agaisnt Vegeta without any new ransformations"

Goku, after being an equal to Vegeta's new and stronger form, proceeded to go Ultra Instinct and get another Limit Break Power Boost to his base power. He doesn't need a new transformation because he took the equivalent of a Super Zenkai.

"Sorry If I sound mad but I dont really like the Goku base>Vegeta SSG thing going on for days"

Nah it's fine man. Agree to Disagree.

Edit: "His SSJ surpassing his first SSG is no and again there is no statement saying that at all and SSB Goku against Jiren being stronger than second UI is yes due to how Jiren mentions their attack being atronger"

It's been stated that Goku absorbed his initial God form into his base. He later stacked Super Saiyan on top of that boost. So yes, Super Saiyan Goku for all intents and purposes is superior to his initial God form.

Jiren also later had to show a "true" glimpse of his power; something he didn't need to do against his initial fight against UIO Goku.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Vegeta is "A Few steps" behind Goku, not "Entire Lightyears" like the OP of this thread is literally outright implying.

 

[Akreious]

Vegeta is "A Few steps" behind Goku, not "Entire Lightyears" like the OP of this thread is literally outright implying.

I said "at least".

Goku in multiple points of DB was entire lightyears ahead of Vegeta.

Namek Saga: Goku would've straight up eaten Vegeta alive.

Cell Saga: Goku surpassed Vegeta in an extremely short amount of time despite same time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber as well as just recovering from a life-threatening Heart Virus despite Vegeta being in top condition for most of the story.

Buu Saga: Goku was literally dead and focused his training on practicing a little known form called Super Saiyan 3 and even then, Vegeta needed to get a Majin boost from Babidi to equal SSJ2 Goku and even at that, couldn't defeat Goku.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, but Vegeta suddenly got a massive power up shortly after taking the senzu bean for Namek Saga. That gap wasn't THAT big in Cell Saga; they both were still considered well below Perfect Cell; it was Gohan who was much stronger. And it was more like a mile rather than light years; not like Base form Goku was stronger than Ascended Super Saiyan.

And same for Buu saga, Goku's base form wasn't stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, and it was again more like a mile rather than light years. And after the Majin Vegeta conversion, they were literally identical in all forms, but Goku was only "much stronger" thanks to SSJ3. Again, pretty sure Base Goku doing better against Hit than SSB Vegeta or Base Goku doing better against Broly than SSG Vegeta are still inconsistent. Especially if Goku considered Vegeta a worthy rival.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

From a narrative standpoint, it makes sense for Vegeta to be slowing down in the training department. He seems to want to be a good father for Bulla and I remember he had to be convinced the join the ToP or something along those lines.

 

[Akreious]

"Yes, but Vegeta suddenly got a massive power up shortly after taking the senzu bean for Namek Saga."

Yes, he got a Zenkai. Then Goku got his butt whooped and proceeded to also get a Zenkai; which jumped Goku to still "Eating Vegeta alive" levels.

"That gap wasn't THAT big in Cell Saga; they both were still considered well below Perfect Cell"

There's several reasons for this though.

Goku, rather than training himself up as much as possible, worked on training up Gohan to become more powerful since he thought that Gohan had untapped inner potential that'd definitely be able to defeat Cell. Plus, y'know, just recovered from a heart-attack giving virus.

"it was Gohan who was much stronger"

Accurate.

"And it was more like a mile rather than light years"

Cell was superior to Gohan, Goku and Vegeta and later became Super Perfect where he flat out stomped the Z Fighters into the ground until Gohan became more enraged and defeated even that Cell.

Cell as only Perfect Form was straight up a non-threat to SSJ2 Gohan and only got his way because Gohan kept toying with him.

"not like Base form Goku was stronger than Ascended Super Saiyan."

Fair, but it's not like Goku at that point in time used a cheat system like Limit Breaking or Zenkais.

"And same for Buu saga, Goku's base form wasn't stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta"

He straight up said he'd been working on his SSJ3 form rather than working up his base form. Vegeta later relented that Goku was holding back when fighting him; that Goku as a SSJ3 could've immediately ended the fight whenever he wanted to. Plus again, Goku didn't abuse Zenkais and the like.

"and it was again more like a mile rather than light years."

Goku went SSJ2 and Vegeta had to go Majin + SSJ2 to equal Goku. Plus Goku had a harsh time limit on how long he can stay on Earth and how much power he can use lest he use up too much time and go back to the Afterlife too early.

"And after the Majin Vegeta conversion, they were literally identical in all forms, but Goku was only "much stronger" thanks to SSJ3. "

That's the thing, Vegeta had to turn to magic to get to where Goku was. Prior, Goku was superior in all forms and Goku focusing on SSJ3 just made Vegeta look even worse in comparison since he (Vegeta) was training up as normal.

"Again, pretty sure Base Goku doing better against Hit than SSB Vegeta or Base Goku doing better against Broly than SSG Vegeta are still inconsistent."

I mean it could also be BS Goku's incredible "Battle skills" at play. Goku's been getting very Plot-Shield like "Intelligence" when the situation calls for it (Reviving himself when Hit killed him, managing to completely negate Universal attacks after only a few exchanges in his new form, somehow managing to counter Time Skip with sheer guessing ability, etc.)

"Especially if Goku considered Vegeta a worthy rival."

Probably because Vegeta always somehow catches up eventually.

I personally put Goku and Vegeta's power levels as oscillating waves on a graph. At several points, the two's powers are incredibly close together. At other points, they couldn't be further apart if they wanted to.

 

[Bornstellur]

At the end of the Namek Saga Goku was a Super Saiyan who beat Frieza, while Vegeta was a Saiyan who curpstomped, tortured, and killed by Frieza.

In the Cell Saga, Goku surpassed him with just 50% of his power.

In the Buu Saga, when Vegeta sensed a glimpse of Goku's real power against Yakon, he immediately assessed he stood no chance and sought the Majin powerup from Babidi. And that was without him knowing Goku had SSJ3 in his back pocket, in which put Goku in another tier altogether.

So, overall I would say Goku was lightyears ahead of Vegeta for most of Z.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The only times "Light years" was the clear cut term was BoG saga; 3-A Vs 4-B and Ultra Instinct. Every other time, it's either a few steps to miles, but not light years.

Also, after the Babadi's magic boost, Vegeta later maintained that power level regularly; such as during the battle against Kid Buu; SS2 Vegeta and SS2 Goku were the same PL at that time period. Vegeta also temporarly surpassed Goku in some periods. Time chamber yes, but also in BoG saga before Goku became SSG.

 

[SuperDragoon978]

Vegeta was stronger than Goku at several points in Z, though.

1. During the Saiyan arc Goku needed Kaioken x3 to hurt him much and Vegeta still had Oozaru.

2. Post-Ginyu Vegeta got several Zenkais putting him beyond Goku (even after training) until Goku got done healing.

3. During the Android Saga, Vegeta was stated to be above Goku in strength.

4. The Golden Freeza arc, Vegeta was implied to be above Goku even after Goku started training with him. Even before Vegeta training with Whis let him surpass BOG arc SSG Goku.

5. Post-Toppo fight, Blue Evolution Vegeta surpassed GoD Toppo, who was stronger than initial SSBE Vegeta who was equal to Kaiokenx20 SSB Goku. Goku needed Ultra Instinct again to get ahead. Vegeta has obviously trained since the ToP and the end of 131 and beginning of DBS: Broly portrayed them as roughly equals. Hell for the majority of Super Goku and Vegeta were roughly equivalent in equal forms.

It fluctuates whether or not Goku or Vegeta is stronger, or if they're equal.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, in Golden Frieza arc, it was more so Frieza had his energy depleted by the time it was Vegeta's turn rather than him being stronger than Goku; though, this did make Vegeta's weight a little bit heavier in the training segment in a fairly early arc.

But yeah, it actually fluctuates from time to time, and Goku's usually stronger, but Goku's base form being stronger than Vegeta's strongest forms is a big no.

 

[Akreious]

"1. During the Saiyan arc Goku needed Kaioken x3 to hurt him much and Vegeta still had Oozaru."

Goku had not done gravity training nor had the same quality of training that Vegeta had at that point in time. Vegeta was raised and trained on Planet Vegeta (10x Gravity) while Goku "merely" trained in Earth gravity and later Kaioken training from King Kai; not actual physical training that buffed up his base form. Hell, Goku went from Raditz level to punking Nappa level. Goku cleared the gap between them in extremely little time and given more time, I definitely wouldn't hesitate in saying that Goku would've solidly defeated Vegeta.

"2. Post-Ginyu Vegeta got several Zenkais putting him beyond Goku (even after training) until Goku got done healing."

Goku after dropping down was superior to Vegeta in every way.

Goku was essentially KO'd in a healing pod while Vegeta was able to heal and recover, abusing Zenkais, to get ahead of Goku. After Goku awoke from the healing Pod, Goku was once again leagues and lightyears ahead of Vegeta.

"3. During the Android Saga, Vegeta was stated to be above Goku in strength."

Also during the Android Saga, Goku was noted to be steadily getting weaker due to the Heart Virus literally killing him. After the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, Goku with only 50% power was superior to Vegeta already (Possibly anime-only, don't remember). Still superior to Vegeta in that it made Vegeta angry; later confirmed that only Gohan and Goku really stood an actual chance against Cell.

"4. The Golden Freeza arc, Vegeta was implied to be above Goku even after Goku started training with him. Even before Vegeta training with Whis let him surpass BOG arc SSG Goku."

Vegeta again had an unfair advantage against Goku; once Goku started training with Whis as well, he caught up and surpassed Vegeta once more. Vegeta was also not implied to be above Goku... ever. Golden Frieza was worn out and tired after fighting Goku so using him as a measurement isn't all that far.

"5. Post-Toppo fight, Blue Evolution Vegeta surpassed GoD Toppo, who was stronger than initial SSBE Vegeta who was equal to Kaiokenx20 SSB Goku. Goku needed Ultra Instinct again to get ahead. Vegeta has obviously trained since the ToP and the end of 131 and beginning of DBS: Broly portrayed them as roughly equals. Hell for the majority of Super Goku and Vegeta were roughly equivalent in equal forms."

Post-Toppo fight Vegeta didn't get a Zenkai or Limit Break boost like Goku does UI. He only surpassed Toppo using an attack that was considered his Suicide Attack.

Goku needing UI to get ahead means little when you have to realize that UI's Limit Break boosts are vastly superior to even Zenkai abuse in Namek Saga. Goku jumped from not being able to do much to Kale and Caulifla at maximum power to practically toying with them in just one Limit Break boost.

"It fluctuates whether or not Goku or Vegeta is stronger, or if they're equal."

Agreed. Look up for my chart analogy.

"But yeah, it actually fluctuates from time to time, and Goku's usually stronger, but Goku's base form being stronger than Vegeta's strongest forms is a big no."

So we're going to ignore WoG statements and a pretty clear statement of "Vegeta is desparately trying to catch up to goku"?

 

[My_area]

WoG didn't state Base Goku to be above SSG Vegeta

Was contradicted by Goku statement saying that Broly might be above Beerus refering to LSSJ form as Gogeta was part Goku as well and there is no reason to assume that Goku didn't mean Broly full power and if Goku was near GoD as WoG stated that then Goku wouldn't hve trouble with a SSJ Broly atleast

Yes it was but the gap wasn't as big as Base Goku>SSG Vegeta hence SSB Goku>>>>SSB Vegeta and all of them were explained

Namek Goku got Zenkai boost,Goku mastered his SSJ and did more training in Cell saga

Nah he is league ahead of him in UIO and UI only the rest of them are no due to lacks of proofs and what I meant by direction of DB was that Goku gets stronger than Vegets with new form than Vegeta catches up then Goku gets stronger by new form and repeat it wasn't ever like Goku base suddenly got above most of Vegeta transformations which isn't explaiined at all


He had a limit break doesn't mean he gets a boost so huge that base is above SSG now just choosing outliners and using headcanon without explict proof doesn't really mean anything here

Goku could take down Caulifla in SSJ3 anyway,none of Kale attacks even damaged SSB Goku on the slightest and would have fought if Jiren didn't intefare

Plus there is no statement saying Goku got so strong that he is able to take down both of them in SSG something he couldn't do before even Krillin mentioned as Goku already being above U6 Saiyans and how was Kale LSSJ SSB level when just few episodes before Kale LSSJ was being handled by Caulfila SSJ2

Is equal to a SSBE Vegeta pre enraged and Goku powering up in ep 123 was what made him this strong not when Goku was fighting Caulifla

If Goku base> Vegeta SSG then that would mean Goku SSJ>Vegeta blue then that would mean that SSB Goku>>>>SSB Vegeta and this huge of a gap would definately be noticable

Not really it was the same beatdown Goku was getting except Goku wasn't able to retaliate anymore but his power in no way decreased not even when he used Kaioken times 20

This is for the reply where it said thst Goku SSG was so much beaten thats why his SSB was weaksr when he was fighting alongside with Vegeta SSB,what I am trying to show is thst Vegets got far more beaten by Jiren with gao between them higher than Goku against Ikari Broly and his power was still the same and didn't decrease so that means that Goku didn't got weakened by all the beating of Ikari Broly

Just like someone mentioned in this thread Goku isn't getting upgraded to above SSG fhe same reason his base isn't on Hit level in U6 tournement nor is Vegeta base in Low 2C

I wouldn't it because it makes no sense for Vegeta base to randomly upgrade to Low 2C for no reason at all and same goes for Goku randmoly getting stronger in base without any statements and proof


I mean the gap between him and Jiren was much more than gap between Jiren and SSBKX20 Goku and yet Jiren couldn't one shot Vegeta even if if was Vegeta will to wake up despite suffering from severe injury when Goku couldn't


Well not that I mean common sense as a sense which is dictating through the thing which isn't making sense despite logic behind it


Why in the base and why not other forms and where is the statement about thing youa re calling as "super zenkai"


Oh right you guys believe on the Goku absorbing god form in base till TOP so never mind what I said


He didn't need it though he was ewsily stomping without it

 

[Akreious]

"WoG didn't state Base Goku to be above SSG Vegeta"

WoG states that Goku is nearing the power of the Gods.

WoG also states that Vegeta is desparately trying to catch up to Goku.

"Desparately trying to catch up" doesn't imply you're equal whatsoever.

"Was contradicted by Goku statement saying that Broly might be above Beerus refering to LSSJ form as Gogeta was part Goku as well and there is no reason to assume that Goku didn't mean Broly full power and if Goku was near GoD as WoG stated that then Goku wouldn't hve trouble with a SSJ Broly atleast"

... What? First of all, Goku never witnessed Beerus' 100% power so his estimate is just that; an estimate. Second of all, Goku nearing GoD level doesn't mean nearing Beerus level. GoD power levels fluctuate quite a bit as all character's power levels do. The only "confirmed" power levels for GoDs are that Champa = Beerus, roughly. Third of all, SSJ Broly went from being equal to Base Goku to absolutely stomping him into the ground after powering up. That not only shows that Broly jumped leagues and bounds ahead in power in very very little amount of time, it also means that Broly has the potential to surpass Beerus if he keeps it up.

"Yes it was but the gap wasn't as big as Base Goku>SSG Vegeta hence SSB Goku>>>>SSB Vegeta and all of them were explained"

I'd also like to note the posts above. Mainly the one that says Vegeta is trying to be more of a family man rather than a pure fighting nut like Goku is, who apparently never even kissed ChiChi before.

"Namek Goku got Zenkai boost,Goku mastered his SSJ and did more training in Cell saga"

Goku never mastered his SSJ form until Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Once a Saiyan unlocks Super Saiyan, they've repeatedly shown they can tap into it at will. He never did more training until the Hyperbolic Time Chamber; prior he was dying from a heart virus.

I'm basically going to reply to everything else later since this is the definition of a wall of text but one thing is that never in the past did Vegeta ever have to "desperately" try and catch up to Goku in strength. He was always a few steps behind, sometimes leagues, but never to the point of desperation with maybe the arguable Majin Vegeta scenario and that's mostly because Goku was on a literal time Limit and Vegeta was thinking this might be the last time they could fight.

"Why in the base and why not other forms and where is the statement about thing youa re calling as "super zenkai"

The "Super Zenkai" as I call it is the Limit Break Boost. And what do you mean "Why in the base"?

 

[ZERO7772]

SSB Goku being GoD tier doesn't make senses to begin with. Heck, literally the only evidence we have of 3rd UIO being comparable to beerus is that Magazine.

If SSB Goku already closing in on Beerus, how is Broly only "might" be stronger than Beerus? Btoly should slaughtered all GoDs at SSJ alone.

 

[AKM sama]

After paying more attention, I'm inclined to agree with Ryu, Matt and DDM. Broly had a clear advantage over SSG Vegeta and when base Goku's punch collided with Broly's, it should have broken. It's PIS for the fight to look cool.

Soon Goku understands that he is outmatched and goes SSJ and then SSG, then also he was overpowered by Broly. After that Broly turned more buff and proceeded to smack Goku around.

Like I said in the previous thread, it's just one of those things where SSJ Vegeta was shown equal to SSG Goku, Android 18, Android 17 and Ultimate Gohan in DBS. Or how base Goku was able to keep up with Golden Freeza's speed in DBS. Or how base Vegeta caught up to SSB Goku and SSJ Broly's speed in this movie. Or how base Freeza survived the onslaught of SSJ Broly. We should ignore minor things like this.

 

[BlackeJan]

If the novel is going by what the movie said and TORIYAMA HIMSELF also looked at it and even said about Vegeta desperately catching up to Goku then how r y'all going to try and reject that? Again we had no problem saying tha Goku SSB is stronger then his 2nd UI it how right now both Base Goku/Vegeta are stronger then their SSG but here u don't think that Base Goku can be stronger then another SSG. If that what was said in novel and watching the movie is completely true especially from Toriyama himself then I REALLY don't see how it's hard to not gasp something like this. I can understand in the movie however about Base Goku cause the man was literally getting tossed up But SSJ Goku was able to double kick Ikari Broly (when he got slammed into the ground) yet SSG Vegeta Punch didn't do squat to Ikari Broly

EDIT: I can understand PIS or Outliers when it came to DBS but if WoG says otherwise then it's true since he basically looks over everything and approves of what is being said or what's happeing like I'm not mad but there's so much proof that it's not even funny

EDIT 2: does Toriyama also look at DBS?

 

[Dark649]

It seems strange to me that Base Goku and Vegeta are far weaker than Base Frieza, who is Low 2-C.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Huh? I thought the Low 2-C key was only for Golden Frieza. You could make an argument for base Frieza (considering he tanked Broly briefly) but that can easily be dismissed as an outlier. It has always been canon that Golden >> Blue in raw multiplier so it's sensible to imagine Golden Frieza >> SSB Goku >>>> Base Frieza == Base Goku.

I suppose you could also argue that Frieza has often been depicted as being on the level of SSG Goku in power if we consider how scaling was presented in RoF (both versions) and in the Tournament of Power (base Frieza taking on Dyspo who could take on SSG Goku)...not to mention how Frieza claimed he based Golden on Super Saiyan (albeit probably just the golden color and aura) but that's a pretty difficult topic which will just end in "I don't know and I don't really care."

 

[Dark649]

Then it should be 3-A, Low 2-C in Golden Form.

 

[BlackeJan]

That shouldn't be PIS or Outlier if Frieza can wistand the slaughter from SSJ Broly even for an hour. It would just mean that SSJ Broly is far higher in Low 2C then Frieza is even in transformation

 

[PaChi2]

Then it should be 3-A, Low 2-C in Golden Form.

Frieza got smacked once by SSj Broly in base before powering up.

Low 2-C base is legit. Unless you want to argue that only his durability is Low 2-C.

 

[Dark649]

Ok, but since the SS form is not an absurd powerup, Peter should change Goku to be Low 2-C, higher with all transformations.

 

[SuperDragoon978]

Agreed with AKM sama. Base and SSJ Goku surviving Broly is PIS in the same way Base Freeza wasn't reduced to mush in one punch and all the other weird power inconsistencies Super has. Goku is fine where he is. Freeza is likely still 3-A in base, Low 2-C in Golden. Broly is 3-A in base, Low 2-C otherwise.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Agree that Frieza should only be Low 2-C in his Golden form. I disagree with any of their base forms being Low 2-C and also disagree with Base Goku being so much stronger than SSG Vegeta as mentioned numerous times.

 

[Dragomer]

Agreed with AKM sama. Base and SSJ Goku surviving Broly is PIS in the same way Base Freeza wasn't reduced to mush in one punch and all the other weird power inconsistencies Super has. Goku is fine where he is. Freeza is likely still 3-A in base, Low 2-C in Golden. Broly is 3-A in base, Low 2-C otherwise.

Nah, i disagree, the Broly who fought Gogeta should be low 2-C in base too, his base is only 50 time weaker than his SSJ form, his SSJ fighting evenly with SSJ Gogeta would still make his base above SSJB Goku and Vegeta.

 

[AKM sama]

Freeza's Low 2-C only in his Golden Form, and that too is debatable. His base form surviving Broly is clearly a PIS and he soon realized that he needed Gold. If his base was powerful enough to survive that beating, he would have pulverised Broly with his insane Golden boost. You don't just take the beating from a guy thousands of times stronger than you without any noticeable damage, without involving PIS.

Like I said, people need to ignore the minor things which are there just for the sake of ***** and giggles. Otherwise we'd end up with Base Vegeta = SSB Goku >>> Base Goku > SSG Vegeta.