Dragon Ball Super Broly Revisions

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Justification for Golden Frieza's Low 2-C rating was due to him training between scenarios and him being confident enough to take out Goku or Vegeta, but only one of them. He obviously doesn't quite scale from Broly or serious Jiren, but he shouldn't be weaker than Infinite Zamasu and should be on par with the current SS Blues.

 

[Peter1129]

@AKM sama Well the light novel has pretty much been accepted as canon so Broly Saga Golden Frieza being Low 2-C is no longer debatable. But yeah Broly Saga Base Frieza isn't Low 2-C.

SS1 Goku being comparable to initial Wrath Broly isn't actually a minor thing. It's one of the main things that was pointed out by the narration in the light novel. It said something about Wrath Broly having a nearly equal match against SS1 Goku even though he overpowered SSG Vegeta.

 

[BlackeJan]

That's the sad part. When people want to dismiss what WoG says when HES the one who thought it was legit AND said it in an interview. If yur not the WoG then tbh it shouldn't matter what u say cause you'll end up wrong regardless so if he says it's legit then it's legit

 

[Dark649]

Nah, i disagree, the Broly who fought Gogeta should be low 2-C in base too, his base is only 50 time weaker than his SSJ form, his SSJ fighting evenly with SSJ Gogeta would still make his base above SSJB Goku and Vegeta.

If Base Broly is Low 2-C, then Vegeta would scale to that tier, who in turn makes everyone else Low 2-C.

 

[Dragomer]

Nah, i disagree, the Broly who fought Gogeta should be low 2-C in base too, his base is only 50 time weaker than his SSJ form, his SSJ fighting evenly with SSJ Gogeta would still make his base above SSJB Goku and Vegeta.

If Base Broly is Low 2-C, then Vegeta would scale to that tier, who in turn makes everyone else Low 2-C.

I don't know about that but Base Broly is low 2-C by the end of the movie, that's simply a hard fact, unless we are going to say Base Gogeta isn't above SSJB Goku's level, if it imply other change, so be it but the important part is that Base Broly not being low 2-C make no sense with what we see on screen and how the SSJ multiplier work.

since SSJ Broly is around = to SSJ Gogeta, then the same is true for their base form and baseline low 2-C < SSJB Goku < Base Gogeta = Base Broly.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

How would Base Broly be equal to Base Gogeta? That was SSJ Broly who was stomping SSB Goku and Vegeta and than Base Gogeta rivaled him with SSJ Gogeta overpowering him. Than Legendary SSJ Broly matched SSB Gogeta. Also, Saiyan multipliers are non-linear.

 

[Dragomer]

How would Base Broly be equal to Base Gogeta? That was SSJ Broly who was stomping SSB Goku and Vegeta and than Base Gogeta rivaled him with SSJ Gogeta overpowering him. Than Legendary SSJ Broly matched SSB Gogeta. Also, Saiyan multipliers are non-linear.

Their SSJ were close enought to push Gogeta to SSJB which is where he overwhelmed Broly and even back then Broly had some good comeback at time.

Broly stomped both Goku and Vegeta....and ?

There is no legendary SSJ Broly, it's just Full Power SSJ Broly, that's still SSJ, just like mastered SSJ is still SSJ.

SSJ multipliers are pretty fixed, even on this site we have fixed multiplier for SSJ despite not accepting the official ones.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I disagree with low 2-C base Broly. We don't know if Broly's power went back to normal after he chilled out (kinda like the Hulk) and Broly went ssj on top of ikari.

 

[Dragomer]

I disagree with low 2-C base Broly. We don't know if Broly's power went back to normal after he chilled out (kinda like the Hulk) and Broly went ssj on top of ikari.

Name me one time any such thing happened in DB, getting stronger through super fast adaptation and learning give you a fixed strenght and you'll only lose it if you get rusty by lack of fighting or training.

Assuming that Broly is back to weak enought for Vegeta to kill / the level of strenght he had at the start of the movie is entirely unfounded and doesn't work with what was shown before.

It's not even implied at any point.

Also at no point it is said that Broly combined the two form, he went from Ikari to SSJ, he didn't combine the two form and if he did, it should be stated on his page.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

He had the same exact ikari eyes when he transformed. This is also not normal ssj it's ssj C type which is abnormally stronger than normal ssj.

 

[Dragomer]

He had the same exact ikari eyes when he transformed. This is also not normal ssj it's ssj C type which is abnormally stronger than normal ssj.

That's not really enough to say he is using BOTH form and it would change his multiplier from 50 to 500.

We have no indication that it's supposed to be anything beyond the same SSJ as Goku used when he was on namek and Gogeta should have the most advanced form of SSJ too anyway so once again, since they are comparable in that state, their base form are also comparable and so Broly in base should be low 2-C, saying that Base Broly would get annihilated by Infinit Zamasu is just nonsense.

 

[BlackeJan]

Idk about Base Broly getting Low 2-C but his Ikari power ups should though

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

See here

https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_C-type

 

[Dragomer]

Idk about Base Broly getting Low 2-C but his Ikari power ups should though

So Broly would be what ? 9 above low 2-C since his Ikari form is a clear fixed 10x power up ?

Base Broly not being low 2-C just make no sense to me.

 

[Dragomer]

See here
https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_C-type

That's just a fan wiki, Broly's SSJ is never said or even implied to be anything other than SSJ. And all that page does is consider SSJ Berserk as the same as Broly SSJ, which isn't supported by the source material, the official material just consider it as SSJ.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Ikari Broly is inferior to blue Goku, why are you saying that base Broly is blue Goku level. His base stopped at ssj Vegeta level, transformed into ikari then went ssj. If you really think it was his base form which only stopped at ssj Vegeta, when his transformation would only be on the level of a hypothetical ssj 3 Vegeta.

 

[Dragomer]

Ikari Broly is inferior to blue Goku, why are you saying that base Broly is blue Goku level. His base stopped at ssj Vegeta level, transformed into ikari then went ssj. If you really think it was his base form which only stopped at ssj Vegeta, when his transformation would only be on the level of a hypothetical ssj 3 Vegeta.

Ikari Broly was inferior to Goku after a few minute of fighting where he started out as weaker than their base, he then turned SSJ, had a full hour of non stop power up like he did before and then matched up against SSJ Gogeta and pushed him to use SSJB.

None of Broly's form stopped at any point, all of them just kept getting stronger, it's just that Broly wasn't closing the gap fast enought after Goku went SSJB, just like he couldn't close the gap fast enought when Gogeta went SSJB, all it say is that the gap between SSJ and SSJB is just massive.

'his transformation would only be on the level of a hypothetical ssj 3 Vegeta.' are you kidding me ? he stomped SSJG Vegeta before he went SSJ and after he did, he stomped SSJB like they were nothing, how would SSJ3 Vegeta stand any chance ?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

"None of Broly's forms never stopped at any point" Base Broly was completely overwhelmed by ssg Vegeta, Ikari Broly didn't adapt to blue Goku, lssj Broly went max power and still couldn't adapt to Gogeta. Also he never adapted when he fought Freeza because he was mainly beating him up.

 

[Dragomer]

"None of Broly's forms never stopped at any point" Base Broly was completely overwhelmed by ssg Vegeta, Ikari Broly didn't adapt to blue Goku, lssj Broly went max power and still couldn't adapt to Gogeta. Also he never adapted when he fought Freeza because he was mainly beating him up.

Just like he was overwhelmed by their base form at first too, it doesn't mean his form 'stopped'.

He did adapt, he just wasn't adapting fast enought.

Once again, he was adapting but not fast enought, hell you can clearly see Broly doing better and better during that fight.

There is no reasons to believe he only get stronger when he is being overwhelmed given that he was getting a stronger as he stomped Goku and Vegeta, he wasn't only getting stronger when they themself were stronger.

 

[AstralKing7]

This better not end well.

Obviously disagreed. If this goes through the whole Dragon Ball scaling will be screwed here and I lot of casual visitors will be confused since I highly doubt any of them think SSJ Goku>SSG Vegeta. Obviously, I don't either. Its an absurd argument taking statements at 100% face value and ignoring both of the Goku and Vegeta fights that showed them as equals.

Goku should stay as he is. 3-A and Low 2-C with Super Saiyan Blue. Blue Goku is not close to God of Destruction tier. SSJ Broly is not above Beerus, LB Jiren, or MUI Goku. Blue Vegeta is not weaker than SSJ Goku.

I agree heavily with this.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Paragus said that Broly reached his limit on two separate occasions and both of those occasions he had to transform to surpass his opponent.

BTW, this ssj Broly wasn't equal to Gogeta. Even in his base form Gogeta was literally smiling the entire fight one only took damage when Broly was forced to transform. This just proves that Gogeta was holding back, he is part Goku after all.

 

[Dragomer]

Paragus said that Broly reached his limit on two separate occasions and both of those occasions he had to transform to surpass his opponent.
BTW, this ssj Broly wasn't equal to Gogeta. Even in his base form Gogeta was literally smiling the entire fight one only took damage when Broly was forced to transform. This just proves that Gogeta was holding back, he is part Goku after all.

And on both occasion, he was wrong, he also said that SSJ didn't exist and was just a myth, Paragus is litteraly 'what if Nappa just came around now', he has no idea what is going on.

Except he was, Gogeta smiling is just him liking the fight since as you said he is part Goku, if he was stronger just in base form, we wouldn't have since Broly fight so well against SSJB Gogeta, especialy since Gogeta was fighting to kill.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Just because Paragus was wrong doesn't negate the fact that Broly HAD to transform on both occasions.

And yes Gogeta was holding back, if he could dodge all of Broly's projectiles with no effort, there's no reason to believe that Gogeta was going all out. Also what are you talking about? Lssj Broly did not lay a single FINGER on Gogeta, it was just a beat down from the moment he went blue.

 

[Dragomer]

Just because Paragus was wrong doesn't negate the fact that Broly HAD to transform on both occasions.
And yes Gogeta was holding back, if he could dodge all of Broly's projectiles with no effort, there's no reason to believe that Gogeta was going all out. Also what are you talking about? Lssj Broly did not lay a single FINGER on Gogeta, it was just a beat down from the moment he went blue.

And ? That he had to transform doesn't mean he stopped growing, he just wasn't growing fast enought.

No reason except Broly continuously matching him and even pushing him back even as Gogeta went SSJB.

Never touched ? He litteraly punched Gogeta away less than a second after Gogeta turned SSJ and he even land a few heavy blow before Gogeta just turn SSJB and Broly match his attack when they destroy the dimension.

there is no 'LSSJ Broly', it's just SSJ once again.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Broly needing to transform to surpass his opponents is just evidence that base Broly isn't blue Goku level Broly has no feats above that so he's staying 3-A. Gogeta had absolutely NO PROBLEM fighting Broly the whole time.

 

[Dragomer]

Broly needing to transform to surpass his opponents is just evidence that base Broly isn't blue Goku level Broly has no feats above that so he's staying 3-A. Gogeta had absolutely NO PROBLEM fighting Broly the whole time.

No, it's just evidence he wasn't closing the gap fast enought to win, which is not a probleme since he had a full hour to non stop power up as we saw with his performance against Gogeta, also at worst, even if we say that his SSJ form is only equal to SSJB Goku, it still mean Broly is barely 50 time weaker than SSJB Goku who is so far into Low 2-C it's not even funny, so even if you are right, which you aren't, Broly is still above low 2-C in base. So no, he is low 2-C and thinking that Base Broly would be weaker than Zamasu by the end of the movie is just ridiculous.

Yeah so much 'no problem' that Broly constantly matched him attack for attack, and sent him flying away a few time and Gogeta had to turn SSJ just before Broly landed an attack on him and had to power up to SSJB after Broly landed heavy blows on him in the weird dimension and even then Broly matched his attack to destroy the dimension.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

There's still no evidence that the lower forms are low 2-C, if we went off of that logic then base Kefla would be low 2-C. Each form reached their limit so Broly transformed, you'r just pulling shot out your ass right now.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

"Gogeta had absolutely NO PROBLEM fighting Broly the whole time."

Super Saiyan Gogeta punched Full Power Super Saiyan Broly and did absolutely nothing to him.

 

[Dragomer]

There's still no evidence that the lower forms are low 2-C, if we went off of that logic then base Kefla would be low 2-C. Each form reached their limit so Broly transformed, you'r just pulling shot out your ass right now.

Except the fact that he is actualy at the very least comparable to SSJ Gogeta while himself being super saiyan, as we very clearly see on screen, making their base form also comparable and above SSJB Goku and Vegeta, making him low 2-C in base.

and once again, even if you were right and we downplayed Broly to have his SSJ form as equal to SSJB Goku by the end of the movie, he'd still be barely 50 time weaker in base than someone who is at the very least thousands of time low 2-C, making him low 2-C in base.

Except you pulled the limit thing out of your ass to begin with, the movie in no way support that and neither does the novel nor any promotional material or anything official, if Broly just suddenly stopped being stronger without transforming, they'd have mentioned it.

 

[BlackeJan]

So I'm going to say this again since the MAJOR key factor is that Toriyama was part in the film AND the novel is canon since he was also part of it. Since he is WoG I'm+ he did the interview AND SAID IT HIMSELF that "Vegeta is desperately catching up" then this is all legit and don't know why it's even being argued. This would honestly be a a clear bias to the series when we have other series who can have an interview with their WoG and we instantly believe it. If we also ALL AGREED that SSJ Goku > 1st SSG and SSB Goku > 1st/2nd UI then again I don't see how u guys can even argue about ANOTHER SSG being surpassed by another SSJ....

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

The ssj form multiplies his Ikari Form, when Broly is about to get vaporized by Gogeta his eyes are yellow like ikari and don't look like the normal ssj eye color. I'm saying over and over again that base Broly's scaling stopped so he has nowhere near blue level because he got stomped by ssg Vegeta.

 

[Dragomer]

The ssj form multiplies his Ikari Form, when Broly is about to get vaporized by Gogeta his eyes are yellow like ikari and don't look like the normal ssj eye color. I'm saying over and over again that base Broly's scaling stopped so he has nowhere near blue level because he got stomped by ssg Vegeta.

Nothing ever said that, the 'Ikar + SSJ' is still your headcanon, the transformation is officialy purely SSJ.

Except it never did, nothing support that, what we see on screen contradict it too and his subsequent form also have shown to get much stronger, which would also make his lower form stronger too since the transformations are only multipliers.

 

[Dragomer]

So I'm going to say this again since the MAJOR key factor is that Toriyama was part in the film AND the novel is canon since he was also part of it. Since he is WoG I'm+ he did the interview AND SAID IT HIMSELF that "Vegeta is desperately catching up" then this is all legit and don't know why it's even being argued. This would honestly be a a clear bias to the series when we have other series who can have an interview with their WoG and we instantly believe it. If we also ALL AGREED that SSJ Goku > 1st SSG and SSB Goku > 1st/2nd UI then again I don't see how u guys can even argue about ANOTHER SSG being surpassed by another SSJ....

I have to agree that ignoring the WOG about Vegeta being behind just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

So I'm going to say this again since the MAJOR key factor is that Toriyama was part in the film AND the novel is canon since he was also part of it. -snip-

We've ignored other WOG statements from other series, like Kishimoto saying no one in Naruto is faster than a bullet, for example, or statements like Haku being light speed. Word of God is not taken as the end-all-be-all on this site, especially when there are feats to the contrary--such as Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta being on par with Super Saiyan Blue Goku in this same movie. It makes zero sense for Vegeta's SSJGod to be so far below Goku's SSJ1 considering their Blue forms are blatantly shown as equal against Broly, and SSJGod is proven to be a stronger transformation than SSJ1. Comparing this to Cabba, or Kale/Caulifla/Kefla, is a false comparison.

 

[Peter1129]

SSG is a power boosts nothing more nothing less. A SS1 can be more powerful than a SSG if their base form is stronger.

Also the light novel which has been accepted as canon by the staff straight up said SS1 Goku was nearly equal to initial Wrath Broly. The same Broly that SSG Vegeta was stated to be unable to harm whatsoever. This is consistent with everything we see between SSG Vegeta, SS1 Goku and initial Wrath Broly in the movie. Not to mention it's consistent with the WoG statement.

Right now the only thing preventing this from being accepted is the sparring scenes between Goku and Vegeta. And the belief that Goku and Vegeta are always comparable to each other.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

"the sparring scenes between Goku and Vegeta"

Just the one right after the ToP right? I don't see why that would be an argument if in the same time frame from then to the Broly Movie, Frieza got to Low 2-C from 3-A.

 

[Peter1129]

There's a sparring scene with them right after the tournament of power in the anime. And another sparring match at the beginning of the movie.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I mean, it's still just a sparring match. SSJ Gohan and SSJ Goten sparred, that doesn't mean they're comparable.

 

[Jobbo]

Well, Goten actually was comparable to Gohan so I wouldn't use that as an argument.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Wait, really?

I mean, that's not my argument just a bad example. Vegeta and kid Trunks sparred.