Dragon Ball Heroes/Xenoverse immeasurable speed upgrade

[Antvasima]

KingTempest:

I do not know, but we either need to figure out some way to avoid constant misunderstandings via a more easily understood definition that means the same thing, or remove it. I am not one of the people planning to remove it though, so I am not well informed.

 

[KingTempest]

Understood, thank you though regardless of the outcome

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Not wanna be a bother, but removing immeasurable speed entirely is a thing I disagree with as well and I honestly doubt that people will agree. This is just my opinion btw


I won't argue on this for now.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Not wanna be a bother, but removing immeasurable speed entirely is a thing I disagree with as well and I honestly doubt that people will agree. This is just my opinion btw


I won't argue on this for now.

Same.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Inconvenient timing is inconvenient.

 

[Everything12]

I'd say the biggest misunderstandings come from statements of Transcending/existing outside of Time and Time Travelling being equated to Immeasurable from what I've seen. They are both things that are used quite frequently in fiction but rarely ever in a way that justifies Immeasurable.

I'd say the best possible solution is taking the feats required, such as the ones Dragon stated which I posted above, and placing them somewhere on the page talking about Immeasurable. So that it clear Immeasurable can only be achieved by having clear cut evidence of these types of feats, and that Time Travelling or Transcending Time is nowhere close to enough evidence if you don't have any of the other feats. While making it very clear that feats of striking before you launched an attack or dodging something that's already landed are far more important feats then simply being able to travel through Time easily.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, this thread came at an extremely bad time. My apologies.

 

[Antvasima]

I'd say the biggest misunderstandings come from statements of Transcending/existing outside of Time and Time Travelling being equated to Immeasurable from what I've seen. They are both things that are used quite frequently in fiction but rarely ever in a way that justifies Immeasurable.

I'd say the best possible solution is taking the feats required, such as the ones Dragon stated which I posted above, and placing them somewhere on the page talking about Immeasurable. So that it clear Immeasurable can only be achieved by having clear cut evidence of these types of feats, and that Time Travelling or Transcending Time is nowhere close to enough evidence if you don't have any of the other feats. While making it very clear that feats of striking before you launched an attack or dodging something that's already landed are far more important feats then simply being able to travel through Time easily.

These seem like good ideas. You should send a private message to AKM sama about it.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I honestly think the standard is fine as it is and that we're just complicating stuff.

And the fact that all these things are being brought up in an immeasurable speed DBH thread doesn't help considering what happened the last two times with the standard. I'm honestly becoming tired of all of this and I'm pretty sure DB fans are too. Especially when someone makes fun of them for threads like this, especially when this thread lead to the standards being changed because of Heroes and Xenoverse qualifying for them.

Not only this is unfair and disrespectful to the verse and their fans, but it is also to the other verses too.

This seriously needs to stop.

 

[Everything12]

So you suggest we stop trying to prevent inaccurate ratings and fix problems in our system just because some people feel its unfair to their Verse?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

So you suggest we stop trying to prevent inaccurate ratings and fix problems in our system just because some people feel its unfair to their Verse?

No. Again, The standard doesn't say that transcending space and time is Immeasurable speed. It is if there's proper context behind it.

Anyways, back to the question: preventing inaccurate ratings and fixing problems?

Saying that a standard needs to be changed to avoid "inaccurate ratings" after a thread that qualified a verse for said rating and this happens TWO times, when the standard didn't even get contested before (it isn't the case here, but I'm not talking about this thread specifically now) seems a little iffy and suspicious, don't you think?

 

[Antvasima]

Everybody calm down please. We have been talking about the immeasurable speed standards for at least some weeks now. It has nothing to do with this particular verse.

 

[Antvasima]

If I remember correctly, the thread that I linked to above followed after another long discussion regarding the topic.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Everybody calm down please. We have been talking about the immeasurable speed standards for at least some weeks now. It has nothing to do with this particular verse.

My bad. But I wasn't talking about this thread specifically since this isn't the case.

 

[Antvasima]

I am just saying that we need to finish working out our standards and cleaning up the many pages that still have immeasurable speed based on our previous standards before we deal with this.

 

[Antvasima]

My bad. But I wasn't talking about this thread specifically since this isn't the case.

Okay. Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[Antvasima]

For the record, I love Dragon Ball. I am not making fun of anybody.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I'm netural regarding this upgrade.
Not that I agree or disagree with the info or anything, I just don't know the full context of it to give a definitive answer

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

BTW a little off topic but do we consider World Mission to be non canon on here? I know that the main storyline for the game is contradictory to the arcade and manga versions but IDK what anyone else thinks

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

BTW a little off topic but do we consider World Mission to be non canon on here? I know that the main storyline for the game is contradictory to the arcade and manga versions but IDK what anyone else thinks

I think so.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Honestly, I'm glad Solaris inspired these changes for DB that recently took place to make the profiles more accurate. (I haven't read the thread yet, so I don't know if there are good news or bad news)

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

@Ottavio_Merluzzo oh I see, because World Mission has officially translated the arcade story mode from the Dark Demon Realm arc to the first half of the Prison Planet arc and I want to go through all that just to see if it contradicts any translated statements we've used in the past

 

[Antvasima]

You may be right, but in any case, it is a very bad time to start this thread, especially outside of the staff forum, given that we are in the process of removing immeasurable speed from profile pages that shouldn't have it, and are barely progressing (help with the thread that I linked earlier would be very appreciated), combined with that this will add lots of chaos and controversy that likely will not lead anywhere.

As such, would you please be willing to restart this thread in the staff forum after at least a few months SSJRyu1? We need to fix some things related to immeasurable speed first.

@SSJRyu1

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

A wiki wide revision because of DB? No surprise there.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Well, a couple things.

First in regards to this thread

1. As it stands Mechi would meet the same standards as Superboy Prime being a sentient timeline or Solaris being temporal omnipresent (Mechi literally absorbs and fuses with the multiverse and time itself, as well as existing outside time and transcending it).

2. Mechi is in no way using an avatar, that is never stated or shown, don't know where that came from. He and his body are all time, history, and a living multiverse that is fighting the time patrol in a void beyond time and the multiverse.

3. They don't simply time travel, they physically fly through time and timelines with ease because they exist outside the natural flow of time and transcend time and space. That is immeasurable speed as they can easily move to before or after an event like you explained as the requirement due to truly transcending linear time.

4. Most "immeasurable" verses don't directly show immeasurable speed feats most of the time, claiming they don't transcend time because many of them have 3D bodies is not a good argument, lots of guys with 3D bodies have immeasurable speed. Its like saying they can't have tier 2 power because they have 3D bodies.

5. Mechi does have higher dimensional existence due to being the multiverse and time itself, so yeah he is beyond traditional linear time.


In regards to standards being changed again

1. This is indeed the 2nd or 3rd time standards have been changed on the heel's of DBH getting a speed upgrade that they would qualify for. Well I know standards do change, this is indeed very disappointing and if I'm being frank, at least a little suspicious.

2. If the speed stats are definably changing and it is impossible to accurately apply immeasurable speed currently to DBH/DBX then not much can be done until the standards are resolved. However I don't get a firm sense that standards are definably changing or the level of speed is being removed.

3. As for staff only, there are several individuals who are not staff who have worked on the project as well, and I believe they should be able to discuss the topic as well. Whether here or if it moves to staff only. Also I don't feel non staff members have been a problem yet on this thread.

4. I feel the current standards and precedents set on the wiki warrant immeasurable speed for Mechi especially as of right now, and the others to. I would be disappointed and a bit disconcerted if the standards were to be changed again, preventing the DBH/DBX cast from being recognized as beyond simple mftl+ speed.

 

[SomebodyData]

I also find it pretty suspicious how often the standards change as a result of a DB thread, though in this case the revisions were decided long before the thread.

After the revisions and this thread is concluded, we should probably begin talks about the fact that standards change every time DB gets an upgrade.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Yeah, the immeasurable shit was before this thread.

If it was the same time as this thread, then we would've taken a crusade.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problem is that we have discussed how most people find our standards for immeasurable speed very hard to understand for several weeks now, and that we need to remove the rating from most of the character profiles that have it right now.

In addition, in conjunction it was mentioned that it might be best to remove the statistic altogether, or at least clarify it so it turns much easier to understand.

As such, a major controversial revision for adding immeasurable speed seems very inappropriate right now, so I would greatly appreciate if you can at least wait with it for a few months.

Updating the standards has nothing to do with Dragon Ball itself though. We have had very exhausting discussions about it for quite a while now.

 

[Antvasima]

See here for reference:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/immeasurable-infinite-deep-sea-confusion.109202/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/immeasurable-speed-characters-updating.109349/

I think that we started to extensively talk about the issue in another revision thread, but then it spun out to separate discussions.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The immeasurable speed changes were being discussed before this thread was created... or am i missing something?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, we have had a very exhausting discussion about this that I think spanned 3 different threads so far, but it seems like there is some misconception that we are trying to spite Dragon Ball.

 

[DBZMLP12345]

I’m just going to say that I agree with Ryu on this

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I don't think it's spite from the moderators or bureaucrats but rather it seems DB upgrades just generally have bad timing since they'll be made around the time an important revision to the system

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I also agree with SSJRyu on this.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I also agree with SSJRyu on this.

same.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I don't think it's spite from the moderators or bureaucrats but rather it seems DB upgrades just generally have bad timing since they'll be made around the time an important revision to the system

How convenient lol.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Pulling a Mav

A being that is not only omnipresent throughout space, but also time, would also be able to react to every attack from a being with normal speed before the opponent would even begin to throw the attack. This is the case because such a being would exist throughout all of time, experiencing past, presence and future at once while not being bound to the normal flow of time.

This is regarding the Mechikabura ting.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I also find it pretty suspicious how often the standards change as a result of a DB thread, though in this case the revisions were decided long before the thread.

After the revisions and this thread is concluded, we should probably begin talks about the fact that standards change every time DB gets an upgrade.

I really agree with this. From Roshi being an outlier, to timeless voids being made with DB in mind, to them being removed, and now this? How can you not believe this place doesn’t have a stigma against Dragon Ball?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, again, we need to discuss this issue after we have at least cleaned up our standard descriptions, and all the profile pages that have misleading inaccurate immeasurable speed ratings.

It is also possible that the statistic will be removed altogether.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I don’t see how that helps anything, because what about the verses who do fit this rubix cube of a standard? Why should they minority get removed then, and if that’s the case, what rating are they?