Dragon Ball Anime Revision

[SSJRyu1]

I just know when you plug in the numbers increasing both gravity to ten times and the earths radius ten times results in the same density as earths, so if it were the same density as earth but 10X gravity, the calculator says you'd need to have 10X radius as well or it would become super dense.

 

[ByAsura]

It's a random calculator, though. Anyway, we should get some more input and people who know about this.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Yes, if only some are canon to each other, then trying to squeeze the huge all these movies are would overblow the profile.

“But the profile would be to big” is basically what you’re saying. This isn’t an actual argument, it’s arbitrary at best.

Creating keys for a non-canon standalone movie is definitely something that we shouldn't advocate.

We do this with Star Wars characters, Terminator characters, and soon to be Snyder verse characters when the JL Snyder Cut comes out. I don’t see a problem. Besides, it’s not like we can give each movie incarnation a profile. So unless you have a better idea, I’d love to hear it.

 

[ByAsura]

If we do make movie profiles, they'd probably be separate pages. Either that, or we can just keep the associated pages and not create new Goku keys/profiles.

 

[Ionliosite]

“But the profile would be to big” is basically what you’re saying.

Strawman, not even remotively what I'm saying.

We do this with Star Wars characters, Terminator characters, and soon to be Snyder verse characters when the JL Snyder Cut comes out.

Star Wars only has 2 incarnations, and that's because Legends shares the same basis with the current canon. Snyderverse isn't even different enough from canon to get keys. Can't talk about Terminator because I don't know about it.

Besides, it’s not like we can give each movie incarnation a profile. So unless you have a better idea, I’d love to hear it.

I of course do: just don't give keys, don't make profiles, don't start trying to create keys for every minor version of a character. That's the huge issue here.

 

[KLOL506]

Actually, regarding the Planet Vegeta size, why not just figure out the size of the planet assuming that the tiny moon beside it is the same size as our moon?

 

[ByAsura]

Most moons aren't actually the same size as ours. There's no precedent for Planet Vegeta's to be either, especially since a full moon happens once a decade on that planet.

 

[KLOL506]

Most moons aren't actually the same size as ours. There's no precedent for Planet Vegeta's to be either, especially since a full moon happens once a decade on that planet.

Oh. Ok.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Strawman, not even remotively what I'm saying.

False. You said it would overblow the profile. I said “but the profile would be to big.” Stop abusing a straw man fallacy when it’s not necessary. It’s annoying and comes off as you complaining.

Star Wars only has 2 incarnations, and that's because Legends shares the same basis with the current canon. Snyderverse isn't even different enough from canon to get keys. Can't talk about Terminator because I don't know about it.

Still goes to show that non canon versions of a character can be in one profile.

I of course do: just don't give keys, don't make profiles, don't start trying to create keys for every minor version of a character. That's the huge issue here.

How is it a huge issue? If so many movie characters have different feats and aren’t canon to each other, then Goku shouldn’t have a huge scaling chain. It’s that simple.

 

[ByAsura]

Just an update. I will take way longer to respond to messages and gather evidence due to technical problems.

For now, it seems Dead Zone and the first Cooler movie fit into the anime and GT timeline. What we should decide on is scaling chains. The profiles would probably remain the same (up to the Namek Saga) and cap out at Solar System level once Goku reaches Perfect Cell-level characters, then reach Multi-Solar System through scaling to Buu’s feats.

If anyone can find a way to vastly upgrade the the Planet Vegeta, it would help with scaling.

Also, I might add some GT upgrades (basically proof that GT base Goku is stronger than the wiki claims), and some scaling revisions.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Also, I might add some GT upgrades (basically proof that GT base Goku is stronger than the wiki claims), and some scaling revisions.

Please don't tell me you're going to argue the points Saiyan Scholar made.

Also, are History of Trunks and Bardock: Father of Goku canon to the anime?

 

[CaptainSparkz]

Why is SSJ 3 Buu Saga Toei Goku Galaxy+ and SSJ2 is only Multi Solar System Level.

 

[CaptainSparkz]

And last time I checked SSJ3 is only 4x stronger than SSJ2, not 100x

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree that Garlic Jr movie, and Cooler movie are both canon. I don't have much to say or starting to lose interest in Toeiverse scaling regardless though. But I'd recommend asking @SomebodyData and possibly Glassman. Dark649 has left unfortunately.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Let's just remove the information from the movies that isn't canon to the TV anime from Goku's page and keep the movie villains' profiles.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Please don't tell me you're going to argue the points Saiyan Scholar made.

Didn’t Saiyan Scholar basically describe Ultra Sonic as tier 1? XD

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Didn’t Saiyan Scholar basically describe Ultra Sonic as tier 1? XD

Oh, this is worse.

 

[Thelastmlg]

And last time I checked SSJ3 is only 4x stronger than SSJ2, not 100x

From what i know, the multipliers aren't accepted here, at best ssj is 40x base, so the difference between ssj2 and ssj3 in the wiki is unknown or something

 

[Ionliosite]

Let's just remove the information from the movies that isn't canon to the TV anime from Goku's page and keep the movie villains' profiles.

^^ Exactly my thoughts.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Wait. Do we consider Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans to be canon to the TV anime?

 

[Ionliosite]

There's no way that OVA fits at any point in the timeline.

 

[JJSliderman]

Well it is at least canon to Movie 5, 3, and 4, if those all fit together.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Yeah, been wondering why Anime Goku's profile includes movie feats, some of the movies are connected to each other, but most of them are separate continuities all together

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Wait. Do we consider Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans to be canon to the TV anime?

Yeah, it can’t fit. Even disregarding Turles and Slug being there, the likelihood of this happening during the 7 day gap before the Cell Games (Gohan can go SSJ but Trunks is still around) is unlikely at best. There’s other filler to justify Tuffles in GT instead of PTETSS.

 

[ByAsura]

Please don't tell me you're going to argue the points Saiyan Scholar made.

Also, are History of Trunks and Bardock: Father of Goku canon to the anime?

My main argument is basically that Baby Saga Goku makes Buu Saga Goku look like absolutely nothing in base.

I’d say yes, especially since the anime uses a lot of its content. History of Trunks kind of conflicts with some very brief scenes in the anime, but I think it’s canon as well.

And last time I checked SSJ3 is only 4x stronger than SSJ2, not 100x

Firstly, this is the anime.

Secondly, we don’t use the super exciting guide multipliers. SS2 is obviously way more than double a standard Super Saiyan, as Gohan went from being greatly overpowered by a very suppressed Cell as a Full Power Super Saiyan, which is explicitly beyond the limits of a normal Super Saiyan, to one-shotting him with a casual kick after he assumed a form similar to Super Saiyan Grade 3.

 

[Ionliosite]

Also, are History of Trunks and Bardock: Father of Goku canon to the anime?

There literally is a flash to Bardock's special, so yes.

 

[SomebodyData]

I dunno about splitting the movies and anime to be separate timelines; it's pretty clear they're intended to be together (all the examples listed above and I'm pretty sure Toriyama said that the movies were all in a different dimension, not different dimensions).

There is no denying there are some large contradictions, though the movie material that the profiles do have come from mostly consistent / not contradicted films, like Broly & 4-A for example.

 

[ByAsura]

The first Broly film does contradict the anime timeline, as many characters would have been training in the HTC or on Earth. The movies themselves are also placed in a haphazard order, with Cooler’s Revenge actually taking place after Super Android 13, despite being the previous film. It makes far more sense and is supported by the series/WoG that everything except the first Cooler film and the Dead Zone isn’t canon.

 

[SomebodyData]

How so?
Cooler's Revenge, after Super Android 13? That seems more contradictory than almost anything described here.
Also I don't think the anime producers ever made a timeline, did they?

 

[ByAsura]

As I said, characters within the HTC would have still been in there, and Goku/Gohan weren’t constantly in their Super Saiyan forms. I will try to break this into a more comprehensive timeline.

• Cell fuses with 18 and establishes the Cell Games with a 9-day period. An unspecified amount of time later, Cell makes the arena.
• The next day, Gohan and Goku leave the HTC. Piccolo then spends two days in there, which coincides with Gohan meeting Lime, and Gohan’s 11th birthday in the next episode.
• Apparently near the end of the gap, but after Piccolo exits, Vegeta goes into the HTC for a day.
• After Cell recently destroyed the military (this happens in the previous episode, and Krillin portrays it as recent), Dende is established as the Earth’s guardian and Goku deals with Tao.
• The Cell Games begin shortly after.

There’s time gaps in here, yes, but not large enough to accomodate one or two movies. The only real gap where the action could happen was also taken up by Vegeta and Piccolo being in the HTC.

In the Cooler’s Revenge, Dende is the Earth’s guardian. The characters in Super Android 13 have met 17 and 18 and Gero is dead, but Goku doesn’t have his Cell Saga gi nor have he and Vegeta advanced their Super Saiyan forms.

 

[SomebodyData]

Wouldn't the Broly movie fit within Piccolo's first day of HTC? A day passes in the movie which would coincide with Piccolo joining in the fight the next morning (he was also in the HTC during the party).

Though even if that wasn't the case, wouldn't that still account for only 5 (if I got my time correct) days?

Cooler's Revenge definitely did not have Dende as the Guardian of Earth. Are you sure you're not talking about The Return of Cooler, not Cooler's Revenge?

 

[ByAsura]

No, because the Z-Fighters were there when Piccolo exited, and Vegeta entered right after.

I also made a slight timeline mistake: Cell apparently gives Trunks 10-days, announces 9 on TV the next day, Gohan and Goku exit the day after, Piccolo enters right after and leaves 2-days later, Vegeta and maybe Trunks (I can’t remember if both go in) go in for one, the Dende stuff happens, and the Tao filler also occurs shortly before the Cell Games. There’s some half days, but all events are supposed to be happening in an orderly fashion leading up to the Cell Games, such as Goku going to Tao so he can collect the Dragon balls for Dende.

The Broly movie takes place over at least a whole day, and doesn’t fit very well with established events. I’ll have to rewatch more episodes tomorrow.

Edit: It seems to take place over one and a half or two days.

I did mean the one with Meta Cooler. The previous movie (before he fuses with the super computer) is during the 3-year training and makes perfect sense timeline-wise. Cooler also appears in GT.

 

[SomebodyData]

Like I said, Broly taking place at least a day fits perfectly with the Piccolo's first day at the HTC; if not afterward (Even from what you're currently describing, there isn't much of a time conflict if the rest occurs in the same day or two (even three if the 10 days statement is to be accepted).

The only real problem would be Goku being in base form, though that could just be explained as Chi-Chi not wanting Super Saiyan Goku for the interview.

Yeah, that's more understandable. Should be noted that Dende as a guardian in this movie even preceded the manga, so I'm not sure if we should take it entirely as meaning it takes place after Super Android 13, but I'm alright with that.

 

[ByAsura]

No it doesn’t because he was in the movie and arrived on New Vegeta while every single other character was there, even the ones who greeted him after he exited. It makes no sense that it occurred during Piccolo’s first day (which we see in the Lime episode, which also leads into the very next episode where he leaves) and he arrived on New Vegeta after finishing.

Edit: The clip also shows that Trunks (who still had short hair when Dende was guardian) and Vegeta didn’t go in together. Meaning there’s extra time accounted for, especially since both could have spent 2-days in the chamber rather than 1.

Goku and Gohan are out at the 8 day mark. The 10-days has nothing to do with it. There’s also no real time gaps like you’re suggesting, the events in between are very much detailed by the anime, as I explained earlier. The last few days are spent gathering the Dragon Balls.

The Z-Fighters going to interviews and picnics is odd, in and of itself. Goku also stays in his base until a fight happens, while he could have powered up anywhere else.

That is pretty strange.

 

[SomebodyData]

I'm not seeing the issue? At no point do they mention anything that contradicts what I said, only that he's much stronger than he was before. The Lime episode could occur before or after the Broly movie, it's not like they spent the 36 hours exactly on New Vegeta.

Vegeta & Trunks had already gone in, so no way they would be in there for another two days.

Does each event state that they took a day to progress? As far as I'm aware, no. I'm not sure why that assumption exists.

I don't see how it's odd? During the 9 days before the Cell Games, Goku's entire response to everyone was to chill- a picnic isn't exactly an issue with that.

 

[ByAsura]

It’s very simple; this movie just can’t line up with Piccolo being and leaving in the Time Chamber because the characters were on Earth when he went in and exited. Vegeta went in right after Piccolo left. The movie simply doesn’t cover any of the two days Piccolo was in the chamber without being an alternate timeline (which it is, but you’re arguing it’s not). Trunks also has long hair, meaning it could have only been before or after.

For reference, Trunks had short hair again in September 1992 and had long hair by October. The Broly movie came out in March 1993.

Trunks and Vegeta, separately, went in again after Piccolo left. Why wouldn’t they each have two days? Vegeta’s whole plan was to surpass Goku and the others refused to go in because they couldn’t possibly do anything substantial/Goku and Gohan refused. It actually makes far less sense for them not to have gone in for 2-days each.

It started after Vegeta went in and finished shortly before the end of the 10-day gap, so it was well over a day.

That was Goku’s plan, the others were training. Goku himself also wanted 3-days of training in between.

Edit: I'm not experiencing technical difficulties and can check the anime more easily now. There's also some more mistakes in the timeline I gave.

 

[ByAsura]

Now that I've watched all the episodes (translated Subs, rather than the English Dub), I can give a timeline.

• Episode 165/166: Cell says he'll give the Z-Fighters 10-days to prepare for his tournament. Trunks confirms its still 10-days away in the next episode.
• Episode 167-169: Yamcha and Cell say there's 9-days until the tournament. Piccolo and Goku confirm there's 9-days in the next episode, and 169 takes place within the same day. Piccolo enters the Time Chamber on this day.
• Episode 170-173: There's 8-days in 170. The narrator says there's 8-days during the opening narration episode in 171, and Piccolo's 24-hours is up in episode 172, allowing Vegeta to enter. However, the opening narration in 171 was potentially referring to the last episode, as it's randomly Gohan's birthday, and 171 ended at night time, yet 172 opens in the day, meaning that Popo could have been talking about a second portion of Piccolo's training.
• Episode 174: 173 ended at night, while 174 takes place during the day, and Vegeta exits the Time Chamber. Gohan, having been left at Kami's Palace in the previous episode, is doing some homework from Chi-Chi, suggesting more time than one day has passed, which is supported by the Cell Games being presented as very soon in the beginning of this episode. As Goku finishes a test, an entire day passes, meaning there's at most 4 to 6-days, which makes sense with Trunks training in the Time Chamber as well. The episode ends with Goku having collected the Dragon Balls, abruptly stating that the 10-days is up.

So these episodes took up at least 5 days of time, if we assume the minimum possible span of time (Vegeta, Piccolo and Trunks only went in for one day, there's only one day between 173 and 174, etc).

The order of the Time Chamber is Piccolo, Vegeta (all by himself), and then Trunks. Tien refuses to go in, and it's implied that Krillin and Yamcha were chilling at Kami House. Vegeta initially says he's going to be there for 1 day, but says he'll take 8 instead, until Piccolo tells him he can only spend 2 in there. Trunks responds that they can have 23 more hours than a day. Notably, Piccolo even advises Goku to spend another day in the Time Chamber. Therefore, it's highly probable that at least Vegeta and Trunks spent 2 days in the Chamber, which is consistent with the strange gap in time 174 presents.

Goku says they'll rest for 3 days, train in the other 3, and rest in the remaining 3. This didn't end up happening, as he was searching for Dragon Balls.

While there is some time (likely a few days), Broly taking place in an alternate timeline still makes more sense. Firstly, the narrator of Episode 174 heavily implies that the days were uneventful. Secondly, the movies are mostly considered an alternate timeline, and Broly never shows up as a villain in DBZ or GT, despite the inhabitants of Hell being resurrected in the latter series (Cooler, for example, shows up in GT). Lastly, it makes sense with the time scale presented in 174, where Vegeta comes out of the Time Chamber.

Given Toriyama's statement and the anime giving absolutely no support for Broly's existence, I think direct evidence that it's canon is needed, rather than claims that "it's not contradictory".

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I recall Glassman and Dark649 listing a giant list of things appearing in Anime fillers, as well as nearly every other movie being canon to Fusion Reborn. And Fusion Reborn seems to have almost every detail of being canon to GT; it heavily contradicts Buu Saga for sure, but there's the fact that Vegeta knew exactly how to use Fusion Dance as if they did it before in GT despite Vegeta flat out hating the idea. Nor would they have any reason to do it between Buu saga and GT unless they fought a giant threat.

Also, I recall statements saying GT is pretty much the one thing that merges all possible Toei timelines into one. Or that it is "The Grand Side Story".

Also, no one mentioned Wrath of the Dragon, I don't think that has any contradictions. And the connection is that it is where GT Trunks receives his sword. Goku using Dragon Fist I wouldn't call evidence, but I believe it seemed noted that is where he pretty much developed that technique where as he pretty much already knew as if he knew it for a while it in GT.

 

[SomebodyData]

I don't think you're understanding me, I'm saying Piccolo likely entered the HTC > Then the first half of the movie + half of the Broly fight > Piccolo gets out and helps > Piccolo goes back in > proceeds as normal. Or just occurs after the five or six days.

Even you state that the resting for the final 3 days of rest didn't actually happen- so I'm not sure how that would be an issue.

Vegeta spending 2 days in a row is contradictory in of itself- he already spent another day earlier in the saga and the absolute limit is two.

As for Broly not being revived (Though notably, Paragus was), the ending of Bio-Broly implies Goku did fight Broly in Hell, whatever that entails.

It seems strange to take Toriyama's account for a canon he doesn't control? But regardless, let's check that comment:

"stories in a different dimension from the main story of the comic"

^ It states the stories to be in a separate dimension from the comic, not the anime, and notably a different dimension, not different dimensions. It would imply they all are intended to be in the same dimension, which is consistent with how often they interconnect with the anime and each other.

 

[ByAsura]

Which makes no sense and would make Broly an alternate timeline. None of the characters went back to greet Piccolo, he went to New Namek. The Broly movie is also never suggested to have happened anywhere in the anime, and Trunks would have been in the Time Chamber at roughly the time this was going on.

They weren't just relaxing, is the point.

Why wouldn't Vegeta have spent 2, then? He also spend one in the previous saga because he went in with Trunks, meaning there was only enough provisions for one year.

That's Bio-Broly, a film. His clone died at the end and it implies nothing.

Which is hypocritical because you used the same quote.

He was referring exclusively to the movies. Only Garlick Jr. and potentially Cooler interconnect, the others are blatantly portrayed as separate, outside of a few easter eggs here and there, like Icarus.

I recall Glassman and Dark649 listing a giant list of things appearing in Anime fillers, as well as nearly every other movie being canon to Fusion Reborn. And Fusion Reborn seems to have almost every detail of being canon to GT; it heavily contradicts Buu Saga for sure, but there's the fact that Vegeta knew exactly how to use Fusion Dance as if they did it before in GT despite Vegeta flat out hating the idea. Nor would they have any reason to do it between Buu saga and GT unless they fought a giant threat.

I've seen the "list", and no, it's between Fusion Reborn and some other movie cameos (basically just random side characters). That doesn't even mean they're all canon, just that these characters showed up in some way, shape or form. The Super 17 saga is set 1 year after the Baby Saga, and it's entirely possible that he A) saw it from the Otherworld while dead, or B) learned it in preparation for combat, which is possible without fusing if they don't have their power levels on an even level.

Actually, Vegeta brings up the idea in GT because of the gigantic power gap between Omega Shenron and their SS4 states, there's no indication that they've ever done it before, and the only thing similar is when Gogeta says the exact same thing as he did in Fusion Reborn, which is a quite possibly just a reference. Vegeta is only reluctant at the prospect of fusing a second time because of Gogeta's poses.

Also, I recall statements saying GT is pretty much the one thing that merges all possible Toei timelines into one. Or that it is "The Grand Side Story".

He says “Dragon Ball GT is a grand side-story of the original Dragon Ball, and it’ll make me happy for us to watch and enjoy it together.” The quote debunks this, if anything.

Also, no one mentioned Wrath of the Dragon, I don't think that has any contradictions. And the connection is that it is where GT Trunks receives his sword. Goku using Dragon Fist I wouldn't call evidence, but I believe it seemed noted that is where he pretty much developed that technique where as he pretty much already knew as if he knew it for a while it in GT.

Wrath of the Dragon does seem fine, which is why I didn't mention it in the OP. I was reluctant to call it canon, despite the Dragon Fist Technique.