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Dragon Ball Anime Revision

We consider Yo! Son Goku And His Friends Return as canon, right? Since Toriayama had a major involvement in that. Even if not, it is a part of that particuar Toei continuity and Vegeta saw Gotenks there.
 
That's not really part of the main continuity I don't think; it's about as canon to the movie versions of BoG and RoF. I'm not sure if that's even part of the Toei continuity.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
In Dragon Ball Super, Vegeta literally didn't even know how to use Fusion Dance; that was a big plot point of the canon movie. Where as in GT, Vegeta was the one who suggested it and also did it exactly right like Goku. And it also surprised Goku because Goku remembered Vegeta claiming he didn't want to fuse with him ever again; which was a quote in Fusion Reborn. One could argue he was referring to Vegito against Super Buu, but that doesn't debunk Vegeta knowing how to use Fusion Dance without "Bending one lousy finger".
Click to expand...
Super isn't canon to GT obviously. Vegeta heavily rejected fusion when the wanted to become Vegito, as you said, and nothing even suggests they've done anything but the Potara or even transformed into Gogeta. Given how detailed his knowledge of the technique is in GT, I highly doubt it was limited to that (non-canon) experience.
SomebodyData said:
I mean, if he considered the timeline placement of the films for the anime, I could probably make the argument that at the very least the films are canon to the anime but not vice versa.
You're right, Gohan being in the Kai realm is contradictory.
Icarus who debuted in Lord Slug & Tree of Might, yeah.
  1. So Piccolo was consuming?
  2. I only remember the movie lasting a bit over a day conservatively, maybe 36 hours if we're being generous considering they only slept there for one night.
  3. Vegeta spending 2 days and 23 hours to avoid the HTC's rules still seems suspect, but all it does it is slightly make the timeline tighter (Not to mention, it'd only make it so you can account for 6 of the days).
  4. I'll have to check on my own time later but for now I'll accept that.
  5. Like I said, it's absurd to assume that Bio-Broly would require the combined strength of Goku and Pikkon to put down. Even the wiki assumes Bio-Broly to be significantly weaker than regular Broly.
  6. Machine Mutants are Tuffles after extensive modification (Turning their skin blue and connecting them with technology as Myuu and Lynchee were) or a separate species created by the Tuffles (They're used interchangeably, although they still rely on Tuffle DNA such as Rildo which looks more like the formers). Baby isn't a parasite / Tuffle hybrid, he's a Neo Machine Mutant hence he has a different appearance but still blue skin.
  7. Pretty sure he used it at times within GT, I wasn't aware of a different appearance though.
    That's a false analogy: Gogeta is the result of a technique that exists in all canons; Dragon Fist and Vegeta knowing the Fusion Dance come from the films.
    Also a false analogy, especially considering Icarus appears in the anime too several times. Now if the OG manga suddenly had Mira after Xenoverse 2 then you could make that argument.
Click to expand...
He added Garlick Jr. That's about it. This is half my point, the anime hardly even regarded the films as canon (outside of a few things), to the point where they should be separate profiles even if they are within the same canon.

Is this a mistake or something? Gohan was on the Kai’s planet and assumed to be dead in the anime, meaning the film is contradictory.

Which doesn't really matter, as I've explained.
  1. Water.
  2. They slept for one day after arriving and then it's nightfall when they leave, but then it's day time when they arrive on Earth. Either way, it happens continuously and doesn't make sense with the time frame presented in the Cell Saga.
  3. Actually, I can account for 8. Goku takes a whole day to complete a test in Episode 174 (Vegeta leaves before this day), and is shown taking at least another day to find the Dragon Balls. Given that Gohan's at Kami Palace, Goku is searching for the Dragon Balls, and there's a school appointment in the Broly movie, it makes little sense.
  4. Ok.
  5. It's not absurd because it's what the movies suggests, assuming that Bio-Broly somehow triggered the real Broly right after dying or something is absurd. Also, Bio-Broly would probably necessitate some strong fighters. This makes sense because his final form is actually a nigh-unstoppable acid rather than a physical fighter.
  6. No they aren't, Giru, the Sigma Force, Luud and Rildo are machine mutants. They're just Myuu (who isn't a Tuffle) or Baby's mechanical creations, and don't necessarily have anything to do with the Tuffles. Baby is a Tuffle Parasite that was combined with King Tuffle at his creation, and was actually responsible for engineering Myuu, programming him into believing he found Baby on a random planet. See episode 22 and 27.
  7. It's not a false analogy. The Dragon Fist and Gogeta exists across DB canon without regards to continuity, that's my whole point.
 
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I just found that Piccolo did say 2 days in his lifetime. This means that Piccolo was there for 2, while Vegeta and Trunks were there for 1 each. So there is quite a bit of time for the Broly movie to happen, but I still highly doubt it did considering the events in between.
 
Looking at the Daizenchuu (6), he mentioned a lot of movies.

Ye, I'm agreeing?

I mean, Icarus appears several times in the anime and the other movies, seems a bit more than a cameo.
  1. I would think if Piccolo needs to drink water, chances are he needs food too.
  2. -Done with your second post- (Just writing this so we don't confuse our arguments)
  3. -Done with your second post-
  4. -Done with your second post-
  5. At no point was Bio-Broly's final form really perceived as nigh-unstoppable, even Trunks and Goten were able to hit him around at times or Krillin's Destructo Disk even capable of cutting through his neck.
    I especially doubt that Pikkon and Goku were needed for a guy whose weakness is water.
  6. Dr. Myuu was part of a random humanoid species that was infected into a Machine Mutant by Baby, yeah, but you're missing the part where Baby's ability works by re-writing the DNA of the infected host (Hence why Baby called Dr. Myuu his creation and how the Universal Tuffleization Plan worked).
  7. The Dragon Fist was invented in the movie, Gogeta was invented by a technique that exists across all canons- that's why it's a false analogy.
 
From what I know, Toriyama only worked on Daizenshuu, he didn't outright make them. Toriyama himself apparently had little to no input on the story/script, only the character designs.

Ok. You just said Gohan being on the planet was contradictory, so I thought you were saying the film superseded the anime, or something to that effect.

He appears in the Garlick Jr. saga, once in the driving episode, and is mentioned once by Goten in the english dub (not the OG dub) of Episode 206. Also, again, even if this character is canon, we should probably still separate the two.

Since you're not arguing some of these anymore, I've just cut them out.
  1. Firstly, that's just a huge assumption. Secondly, he didn't on Kai's planet, and it's occasionally suggested that they only need water. I'd just chalk this up to inconsistent writing. Either way, the provisions last two days per one person, and the whole thing is actually a retcon apparently, so it probably doesn't apply to the Cell Saga in the first place.
  2. A) His final form at the end of the film was way larger, acidic, stronger and practically invulnerable to injury due to regeneration. B) How would they know that unless they were explicitly monitoring Earth? C) What relevance does this point even have, again? It seems like you aren't even sure.
  1. No, Baby explicitly shows that he's simply a machine he created. I even gave you a scan where Baby says he programmed him and calls him a machine mutant. Here's more proof, and evidence that Myuu is a machine. Even if you were right (which you aren't), none of this even relates to the Tuffles.
  2. The Dragon Fist does exist in many canons, despite being created by the films, hence why it's not a false analogy. It's even less of a false analogy because Gogeta himself, the character I'm directly referring to, originated from Fusion Reborn. It's virtually the same situation.
 
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What you linked had Toriyama stated he helped / even thought of parts of the anime? Assuming you just mean just the movies, the "JUMP SUPER ANIME TOUR" section says Toriyama actually created the basis behind the stories, just not the full content of it (Not that he needed to create it to say it is canon to the anime, otherwise all of Super would be non-canon to the manga). The section even mentions Toriyama's idea of adding stories retroactively.

Sorry, I just meant to agree with you, I should have explained better.

I don't understand why we would need to split the character? It just seems like an attempt to hide a connection.
  1. Didn't the Nameks, like, grow cabbage or something? I'm unaware of the retcon part, can you elaborate?
  2. A) Which later turned to stone shortly before being killed- rendering that all inert. B) Hell has an orb that for some reason picks up great battles for entertainment they (The ogres at least) would have seen Bio-Broly's weakness. C) I'm not sure on Broly's fate in Hell after the fight, which coincides with Broly's weird absence when even Paragus appears.
  3. The Perfect Files is where Dr. Myuu's backstory is elaborated upon. I can't find it though, so I'll drop that, but will clarify: the Machine Mutants are a mix of organic and mechanic androids like I explained above (Kinda like 17/18 or Baby who is also referred to as a Machine Mutant and has Tuffle DNA).
  4. Like? I seriously doubt 'the many canons' don't consider the movie canon to themselves. Again, it's clearly a false analogy. The fusion dance already existed in the original material- Gogeta is possible within any canon with the fusion dance; the Dragon Fist is a technique that originated in the movie.
 
The Super Jump Anime tour was not the original 13 films, just Yo Son Goku. Read it more thoroughly, because it said he was more involved with this film than any of the others, and only talks about Yo Son Goku. It actually debunks your claims, if anything.
  • From the start, the Jump Super Anime Tour special was promoted as being based on a story by Toriyama. In fact, the opening credits to the special credit Toriyama with the first draft, in addition to his usual credit in the openings as the creator of the original work. The actual script for the special is, however, credited as being written by Takao Koyama, the same man responsible for all of the Dragon Ball Z movie scripts. Toriyama did come up with the basis for the story, but he did not flat-out “write” the finished version. Still, this represents more involvement from Toriyama than any of the other movies had received.
Ok.

I'm not hiding the connection. It's so superficial that the profiles should be split anyway because of the massive contradictions. Factually, Goku did not fight Turles or Slug in the anime, and many of the films are considered alternate timelines/movie-only by Daizenshuu despite one even being the origin of Icarus.
  1. I can't find the episode, but the wiki page for this plant says it's only for beauty since they don't need to eat. Apparently (I can't be sure of this since there's not a single citation I can find from any person wiki that claims this), the limited provisions retcon was created in the Buu Saga to explain why Piccolo, Super Buu, Trunks and Goten/Gotenks were all in the Time Chamber. Either way, there's enough provisions for one person to last two years, and two to last one year (hence Trunks/Vegeta and Goku/Gohan being in there for around a year).
  1. A) Cell was vaporized, Frieza was in dozens of pieces, Tien had his hand chopped off and Vegeta was petrified after exploding in the Buu Saga, yet they weren't in the exact same condition. Clearly, these characters are restored after going to hell. B) The battle was nowhere near as titanic as any of the other ones. C) A lot of enemies that appeared in the movies didn't reappear. It's also highly coincidental that he'd just start up trouble right after Bio-Broly, in his own movie, died.
  2. Actually, the files say he made Myuu like a robot (called Mu because it's a direct translation), while Rilldo was made from an organic into a mutant. Even if you are right about this, it still doesn't prove your point because Lychee was only blue after his death, and it had nothing to do with Machine Mutants.
  • Baby is a parasitic artificial life-form with the cells of King Tsufru!! After the destruction of Planet Plant, he evolved into his larval form while drifting through space!! At the same time, it seems he developed Doctor Mu and had Mu gather power to help him grow!!​
  • Age 740: Doctor Mu is born! Baby manufactures Doctor Mu in order to gather the resurrection energy he needs to obtain a powerful body. Baby programs Mu with the method of developing machine mutants, and production begins on Llod, M-2, and the others.​
  1. Let's see: Dragon Ball Z: Burst Limit, Dragonball Evolution: The Game, Dragon Ball Z: Budokai/Budokai 2, Dragon Ball Z: Ultimate Tenkaichi, and more, but there's no point continuing the list. It's clearly not a false analogy. The Fusion Dance existed at that time, yes, but Gogeta didn't, which is what actually matters. Gogeta was invented by the films, just like the Dragon Fist, and is uniform in many canons that aren't connected to the films.
 
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King Vegeta thing should be taken off, that thing like literally did not actually happen and is all a hyperbolic flashback, evidenced by King and Prince Vegeta being adults in the split second after and Frieza holding a planet like a basketball.
 
Idk how to go about this argument, so here's the scene if anyone wants to take a crack. It's in episode 86.

IMO, only the parts after are presented in a stylised fashion. Right after, there's even more flashbacks.
 
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Because the flashbacks before and after didn't appear to be exaggerated. Two are even from the Bardock special.
 
Yeah, I should have read that more thoroughly. Though going back to read your links after embarrassing myself with this, I found that the Saiyan and Tsufruian Background refutes what you said about the anime displaying the information of the Tuffles first, instead most of the content came later with the Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans. It also says Toriyama did in-fact check the plots of the movies as well.

I mean, yeah, we know it factually didn't occur in the anime. Same could be said for DB in the anime (The two are considered separate like Z and GT), but we know its canon to the anime given the connections it has.
  1. I see, fair.
  2. I was commenting on how you were describing him in his gigantic state when nothing would suggest he would take that form above anything else. Bring restored would at best mean he's probably back to regular Bio-Broly, which doesn't require Pikkon & Goku.
    Pretty sure Luud's weakness / backstory has Myuu use his DNA to create him, but it might take me a while to find it on YT. Lychee became blue after being reborn, presumably because he himself became a machine mutant (or some variation, given we know he is partially mechanical) thanks to Hatchiyack.
  3. The games you mentioned literally have the movie as canon- I'm not sure who would agree with you that the movies of DB didn't occur in say, Ultimate Tenkaichi? "The Fusion Dance existed at that time, yes, but Gogeta didn't, which is what actually matters."
    ^ If the Fusion Dance existed, then Gogeta is always possible in any canon where Vegeta and Goku exists. That's why the Fusion Dance matters, not Gogeta himself.
 
Firstly, that section says Toriyama created a memo containing the information used in GT and Plan to Eradicate The Super Saiyans (I'll call it PtETSS from now on), both of which draw from the anime continuity. It says that most of this information was actually from the anime and created well before either GT or PtETSS. It's just a shared trait, just like Planet Salada existing in the manga, anime and xenoverse.
  • Toriyama had written a memo to the anime staff outlining most of the Saiyan and Tsufruian backstory that appears in Dragon Ball Z episode 20. His memo on this is reprinted in the Dragon Ball Z Anime Special, Daizenshuu 5, and Son Goku Densetsu(the readability of which varies with each reproduction).
  • It is notable that Toriyama’s memo uses the name “Planet Plant”, which is later mentioned in the Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans video games and Dragon Ball GT as being the original name of Planet Vegeta before the Saiyans took it over. However, this fact is not actually mentioned in Dragon Ball Z episode 20. Oddly, the Dragon Ball Z Anime Special and Son Goku Densetsupictures of the memo show “Planet Plant” crossed out in red, with “Planet Vegeta” written in, but the Daizenshuu 5 picture does not have this. This implies that there are at least two copies of this memo.
    • ​
      Planet Plant is a difficult planet to live on, as its gravity is unusually strong. However, two races live here. The majority of the inhabitants of Planet Plant are Tsufruian. Their bodies are small, but knowledge-wise they have a comparatively advanced culture and civilization. The other race has an unusually small population, but their bodies are large and strong. They are a primitive, warlike race called the Saiyans. Their biggest distinguishing characteristic is that they have tails, and every one of them seems to be a warrior.
      Click to expand...
Edit: Given that the original game (there's the game and then the OVA remake) was made by Takao Koyama, someone that only worked on the 13 films, I'd say this is very much the case.

Secondly, I did note that information prior, it's not something I missed. But Toriyama checking on the movies' plot (not necessarily even fact or continuity checking, which makes sense given his view of the films in interviews, and him adding elements into the films like Namekian's sensitive ears) doesn't actually mean anything.

It's canon until it's not. Many of these connections don't even really exist.
  1. Bio-Broly dwarves the likes of 18, Krillin, and Super Saiyan Trunks and Goten before becoming far larger and acidic. I don't see why Goku and weighted Pikkon wouldn't be needed.
  2. Lychee is explicitly a Ghost Warrior like Frieza, Slug, Cooler, etc, and Myuu's creations are Machine Mutants. The term is "Machine Mutant" never even used in PtETSS.
  3. None of them do, except Burst Limit, admittedly (I made a mistake). They others no connection to the anime, and don't feature movie-content, especially the DB:E game. You're probably thinking of something like Xenoverse. This point is difficult to argue because it's not an actual point, it's just something you've conjured to make it seem true. By this logic, Ki Attacks would matter, not the Dragon Fist.
 
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Firstly, he wrote all of the movies, so there's no better source. Secondly, I wasn't even providing a quote from him, it was just information that he worked on the films and not the anime.
 
The problem with that is that Broly's feats pale in comparison to Janemba's who Hirudegarn is comparable to although weaker than. Goku and Pikkon also canonically dealt with Broly in Movie 11 and in Movie 12 he stated only Janemba and Buu made him use Super Saiyan 3. Janemba then powered up multiple times, beat Goku and forced out the fusion into Gogeta. Death of the Author would just apply.

Second, the films are derived from the anime, so while they do exist in an alternate timeline, they're still under the same general premise.
 
A) This is totally irrelevant, so much so that I won't even really try to address it. B) The wiki considers Janemba to be stronger than Broly, so nobody is arguing against you. Koyama himself has apparently even called Janemba the strongest, with Hirudegarn as the second (I kind of disagree, because Goku and Hirudegarn were stronger than Ultimate Gohan and SS3 Gotenks).

It's true, they even use some of the same production memos, but it has no relevance to the actual point I was making against SomebodyData. Koyama's credibility has no relevance to this point.
 
Data claims Goku and Pikkon fought Broly, which is why he doesn't show up in GT/Fusion Reborn. I'm arguing that it was Bio-Broly.

My point about Koyama was that he's only involved with the films and not the anime, which lends credibility to the idea that Planet Plant is just a shared trait between Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans and GT. This makes a ton of sense since it came from production memos.

Koyama's supposed lack of credibility had literally nothing to do with it.
 
Bio-Broly is a clone. Because he died and dead people go to the afterlife.

It wasn't called Planet Plant back then. This information came from a production memo that GT and Plan to Eradicate The Saiyans used.
 
I'm using the fact that Planet Plant first appeared in the OVA as a point here, the memo existing doesn't really change the fact that it came from the OVA before the anime and sequel.

Takao actually worked on the anime.

I would say you're correct on Toriyama, if we were talking about, say, the manga. But you add the connections the anime and the movie has, and it seems clear that there is at the very least an attempt to connect them.
  1. Like I mentioned before, Goten and Trunks are capable of repeatedly stunning Bio-Broly (Something they struggled to do against SSJ Broly who also finished them way faster than Bio-Broly) and Krillin even managed to cut off Bio-Broly's head. Bio-Broly is clearly far weaker.
  2. Yeah, the name for it originated in GT.
  3. No, I think you're just not getting the point. Dragon Fist came from the movie, ergo using the technique implies a connection to movie. Your comparison to ki blasts for example is false as all continuities at one point introduce the notion- so you can't pick which specific canon it would come from.
 
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Either that or Goten and Trunks got Stronger since then. It's fully possible that they received some sort of Zenkai Boost from Broly's First Ass Whooping and maybe some more training after that.
 
I don't think that was ever implied/stated, especially since Krillin & Android 18 would have become a whole lot stronger too for some reason.

Not to mention, Goten wasn't in a near-state of death after the beating from Broly, so no zenkai.
 
The memo does change the entire point, because it came from the memo with production information, not the OVA. Nothing was originally from the OVA and transferred over to GT.

I stand corrected then.

A minor one. The contradictions are still so enormous.
  1. Again, even before Bio-Broly grew way stronger, he's still massively more powerful than two Cell Saga-level Super Saiyans and therefore . What your Krillin point proves is that he's not stronger than Perfect Cell, and even then he regenerated instantly. I'm not saying he isn't, my point is that he still constituted an enormous threat.
  2. Can you elaborate on this one? I don't know if you're letting this point go, or claiming it's only the name.
  3. I get your point, I'm just saying there's no false equivalence. It was an example, albeit even one that I thought was pretty bad.
 
Saiyans still get stronger through fighting, not just being near death, but it’s usually not as big a boost as a Zenkai. Though, since it’s Goten and Trunks, 2 of the characters with some of the most potential out of all the saiyans, that big of a boost might be possible.

Krillin and Android 18 do completely contradict that though.
 
Okay so I was asked to post my arguments about GT scaling to the movies on this thread :

Arguements for why movies scale to GT

Firstly I want to list the arguements that GT does scale from Movies.

1) Vegeta Knows and Suggests the Fusion Dance

2) The GT Perfect files show a Picture of SSJ Gogeta from the Fusion Reborn Movie.

3) Theres a Shot of Cooler in the Super 17 Arc.

4) Goku uses the Super Dragon First from Movie 13.

I will adress all arguements above after I define what Akira Toriyama thinks of the Dragonball Movies and the Dragonball GT Series.

What Toriyama thinks of DBZ Movies and GT

When Toriyama is asked in an Interview about the DBZ Movies, he states that they are STORIE(S) that take place in A different DIMENSION.

When asked about the Original series, he responds with comments in portains to Majin Buu.

Toriyama checks the plot and the story for movies that Toei sends him, so he is stil King of Dragonball.

"Stories, A, Dimension". Stories is Plural, while the words "A" and "Dimension" are SINGULAR.

This means that ALL DBZ Movies take place in the SAME Dimension/Timeline.

"It can be interpreted as..."

No. This a statement from the author. He's a simple man. You take the DIRECT OBJECTIVE definition of his statements. All movies take place in the same dimension.


Toriyama States that Dragonball GT is a Side story that is the continuation of the ORIGINAL Dragonball.

We OBJECTIVELY defined what Toriyama considers original. So that means GT is the continuation of the DBZ anime, NOT including the Movies, as they are not classified.

And don't give me your personal Interpretations.

Arguement 1

"Vegeta suggests the fusion dance, and does the dance perfectly on his first try, he has to have known it from Fusion Reborn from when Goku showed him the posses."


Very easy to debunk this. Vegeta states Inside of Buu that he knows about the fusion dance AND has seen it from the Afterlife. So Vegeta already has Fusion's concepts in his head, and already has witnessed it. So he knows the poses from then.

Now look at this.




After Fusing into Gogeta vs Omega Shenron, they defused right? Goku states to Vegeta that "You've already done it ONCE." Emphasis on the once part. Goku have fused Via a dance TWICE. Once in Fusion Reborn and Once in GT. Since they've fused Only once, this means Fusion Reborn did not happen.


This means Fusion Reborn does NOT scale to GT. And we showed earlier that via statements from the author that the DBZ movies are all in one dimension/timeline.



It should be noted that the man that Created the plot for Dragonball Movies is Takao Koyama. He created the all the DBZ movies from Movie 1-13. And he created the Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans MOVIE, that was cut down to and Ova Later on. It would make sense that the creator of all these movies, would have them take place in a single timeline. Evidence bellow.






Let me PROVE IT to you. In Dragonball Z Fusion Reborn Movie 12, its shown all movies are connected.




As you can see Villians from each movie are in the Fusion Reborn movie, and thus are connected im the same timeline.


Medamacha is connected to Lord Slug, who is connected to Broly, Cooler and Turles in Plan to eradicate the Saiyans Movie.


Cooler is obviously connected to all Cooler Movies, and the same can be said for all Broly Movies.








Movie 2 Worlds Strongest

Movie 3 Tree of might

Movie 4 Lord Slug

Movie 5 Cooler's Revenge

Movie 6 Super Android 13

Movie 7 Return of Cooler

Movie 8 Broly the Legendary Super Saiyan

Movie 9 Bojack Unbound

Movie 10 Broly Second Coming

Movie 11 Bio Broly



Litrally ALL movies apart from Movie 13 Wrath of the Dragon are connected to Fusion Reborn. The only reason Wrath of the dragon isn't referenced in Movie 12 is because it was released after it. The writer has made it ABUNDANTLY clear that Movies are all part of one timeline.

Movie 12 Takes place between Fat Buu and Kid Buu. Yet Ultmate Gohan is shown on Earth with Humans Alive.



When Gohan was on Earth, ALL Humans were dead. And only wished back DURING the fight with Kid Buu. This is a complete contradiction to the canon.

Arguement 2






Theres a Picture of SSJ Gogeta from Fusion Reborn and it says that it made his first appearence there.



Actually the Guide says the Concept of Gogeta first made his Debut the Fusion Reborn MOVIE in 1995. It says NOTHING about SSJ4 Gogeta being from the Fusion Reborn movie.



"It can be interpreted as..."



I already told you. No. Look at the conext, look at the text, and then take it at face value. Because anything else is assumption and Headcanon.



It states Gogeta's CONCEPT made his debut in a the Movie. If Gogeta had made his Debut in Fusion rebornN then the guide would of simpily said, Gogeta made his debut in Fusion Reborn. But they specify Concept, i.e its just Gogeta, as a thing that was created and debuted in the Fusion Reborn Movie.



Fusion Reborn Via statements from the Show disproves this Guide. Show statements>Guide.



Arguement 3




"Cooler in the Super 17 arc was shown returning from Hell, therefore GT has to scale from Movies."


Sorry but the Show is made by Toei. Toriyama states that he left it up Toei to do the Job. Cooler's appearence is mearly an accident.



If thats not a Good enough reason for you, then lets try this. Cooler is shown on a TV, for 1 Frame. 1 single Frame. This is something that Shows do, known as an Easter Egg. Cooler is the only movie Villian Shown and has no other participation to GT other than this ONE frame.



An example of an easter egg in Dragonball is this image tha was drawn by Toriyama.




"Thats R2D2. This must mean that STARWARS is connected to Dragonball, and therefore feats in Starwars Scale to movies."



See how rediculous that sounds? It's the same thing with Cooler in GT.



Star Wars takes place in a different Dimension that is not apart of Original Dragonball. Similarly The Cooler's Revenge Movie takes place in completely separate dimmension from Original Dragonball.



Arguement 4



"Goku used the Super Dragon Fist Twice. That means Movie 13 Wrath of the Dragon must of taken place."



It's a Technique. Just because he knew a Technique from a Movie, doesn't mean he scales from that Movie. Its rediculously weak arguement.



Let me show you another Comparision.






This is an Image from Dragonball. Toriyama has Shown R2D2, and he has shown that Light sabers can be used in DB. That means HE MUST scale from the Starwars Fanchise.



Again, it sounds rediculous, and is weak arguement. The concept of Movies scaling to GT is litrally a contradiction of the Authors intention/ statements fron the interview, so thats proof enough.



Cooler and The Dragon Fist, do not Make Movies canon to GT, just as R2D2 and the Lightsaber do not make Starwars Scale to Dragonball.

In other words Goku using Dragon Fist in GT doesn't directly prove that it's canon to Movie 13, it's just a technique that Toei created for him. There's no direct mention of anything movie related in the entirety of GT besides the single frame with Cooler's appearance

Conclusion.



From the the above analysis, we have deducted that :



• Movies Take place in a Seperate Dimension

• Toriyama States GT carries on from the OG Dragonball

• That Fusion Reborn Does Not scale or connect to GT

• That Almost all movies are connected to Fusion Reborn.

• That Cooler is just an easter egg and/or a Mistake.



This means that Movies do not Scale to GT, and that GT is the continuation if TORIYAMA'S original Dragonball anime

(I found most of this arguments in Amino app but it's not like I disagree with it though )
 
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Thanks for this information, especially the Fusion Dance thing (which I'll have to find in the anime). That actually creates a new contradiction for Fusion Reborn now given that Vegeta either knew about it before the movie and somehow didn't in the film, or Goku didn't know Vegeta was capable of the Fusion Dance despite seeing him do it.

Personally, I'd say the movies are canon to an extent, but so highly contradicted that it should be separated anyway.
 
ByAsura said:
Thanks for this information, especially the Fusion Dance thing (which I'll have to find in the anime). That actually creates a new contradiction for Fusion Reborn now given that Vegeta either knew about it before the movie and somehow didn't in the film, or Goku didn't know Vegeta was capable of the Fusion Dance despite seeing him do it.

Personally, I'd say the movies are canon to an extent, but so highly contradicted that it should be separated anyway.
Click to expand...
Yeah however M13 should still be Canon to GT due to Goku demonstrating the Dragon fist and Trunks holding Tapion sword so yeah
 
ByAsura said:
Actually, the Tapion sword never appeared in GT outside of the intro, and there's still some pretty massive contradictions with the Dragon Balls. There's just as little reason to consider it canon.
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I mean I know there are massive contradictions but I think M13 being Canon is fine though since there isn't any contradiction between GT and M13 and Fusion reborn doesn't scale to M13
 
There's no reason to consider it canon, either. Plus, there's an interview that states Goku from Fusion Reborn is the same as Movie 13.
 
I actually found something interesting in that scan :
7726008-5008ce0ea686cd2225fc685fecadf5a684c97b85_hq.jpg


Complete translation :

"This is the fusion of Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta. The strongest warrior in the entire Universe, and probably in every dimension!! It's Fusion of unprecedented power that lasts 30 minutes, however, it's only weakness is that lasts 10 minutes due to the Super Saiyan 4 state. His power is perhaps many tens of times stronger than a single Super Saiyan 4."

Every dimension could be referring to every other timeline, which in the scope of GT could actually be referring to the movies...

And it could be acknowledging that even if the movies took place in different dimensions/timelines, Gogeta scales above all these characters and hence even though Fusion Reborn isn't canon to GT he might scale.
 
Gohanblanco217 said:
...... What???
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what that refers to.

The first part of my statement means that Wrath of the Dragon specifically doesn't affect GT scaling. The movie has no feats, and GT Goku far surpasses the original Z cast at all stages in his base form alone.

The second part was about Fusion Reborn and Wrath of the Dragon Goku being the same.
Gohanblanco217 said:
Every dimension could be referring to every other timeline, which in the scope of GT could actually be referring to the movies... And it could be acknowledging that even if the movies took place in different dimensions/timelines, Gogeta scales above all these characters and hence even though Fusion Reborn isn't canon to GT he might scale.
Click to expand...
Or it could be referring to Otherworld, the Demon Realm, etc.

Your belief could actually be supported the alternate by Dende when Buu was about to collapse dimensional walls with his Vice Shout, but I don't think there's anywhere near enough evidence for that.
 
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