• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Downgrading the Dream Depot's size to at least low 2-C.

Mephistus

Mephistus

Username Only
1,032
791
So, there's evidence that the Dream Depot in Mario Party 5 has at least 1 universe sized dream in it, called Future Dream .

"Teleport from space station to space station as you marvel at the wonders of the universe in this outer-space race for the stars! It's one small party for man and one giant party for mankind!"
—Mario Party 5 instruction booklet, page 28
The Dream Depot is the collection of dreams for everyone at least living in the Mushroom Kingdom, if not "everyone's " dreams going by Bowser or the guidebook. This leads many on this site to claim that every time someone dreams in at least Mario's universe, they are creating a whole universe because if a dream or dream world can be the size of a universe, clearly all dreams or dream worlds are the size of a universe? Right..........?

Nope. Wrong. This is textbook association fallacy for the meaning of "dreams" and "dream worlds" always equalling a universe sized realm based on a single example and extending it and an outright assumption. To come to that conclusion for each and every dream world or dream, we need to have direct proof that ALL dreams are that size and equal and not be contradicted. I'm going to point out why any single dream shouldn't be assumed to be a universe outside of this specific one and this is wrong on many levels as a standard or default for the series here because of existing contradictions regardless. Other series may treat individual dreams / size of dream worlds to be the same and equivalent in size / all definition in meaning but this doesn't apply for this series since there are clearly pocket realms residing in this verse.

______________________________________

First point about this contradiction of dream worlds and dream size; Bowser is going to fill the single dream that is the size of a universe with "dreams", emphasis on the plural here, if every single dream each is a single universe there would be a 1 to 1 for Bowser's filling it with a single dream and not multiple dreams.

https://youtu.be/WNEtsV2P0RA?t=76

Bowser: "I'll ruin this Future Dream by filling it with my own dreams!"

That two or more dreams can fit inside a universe sized realm should be telling that the variable size of individual "dreams" here exists for each "dream world" or "dreams" in the meaning in the series.

______________________________________

Another great example about the size of individual dreams varying in general depending on the dreamer and not defaulty being a universe; this is described as so by a in-verse guidebook:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...26762754637844/Screenshot_20200105-022314.jpg

"In the end, the decided to invite Mario and his closest friends because, when it comes to dreamers, nobody dreams bigger than they do!"

This clearly shows that the size for a dream or dream world in-verse isn't at all standard and varies.

______________________________________

Last but not least? The rest of the dreams shown in-verse that were made by the Star Spirit's dreams (during Mario Party 5 especially) are visually very tiny in respect and don't have direct info in respect to this one example universe sized dream being equal to it or directly the same size.

https://www.mariowiki.com/Toy_Dream

https://www.mariowiki.com/Rainbow_Dream

https://www.mariowiki.com/Pirate_Dream

https://www.mariowiki.com/Undersea_Dream

https://www.mariowiki.com/Sweet_Dream

https://www.mariowiki.com/Bowser_Nightmare

You can note that most of them don't have a sky to look at and therefore would be assumed to be just what's limited to what we can see in size, which is essentially less than a football field at best, if not less in size for most of the dreams.

______________________________________

Subco is 4-A sized dimension going by night scenery and has an alternate dimension to its own dimension which would be another substantial 4-A realm, although overall we only have direct evidence that 1 single "dream" is the size needed for low 2-C tier for the Dream Depot itself.

______________________________________

My proposition is that the characters that scale off the Dream Depot and Dream Stone,Dark Stone based on such wild assumptions that all dreams are universe sized are downgraded from "2-B" based on false premises to at best get "low 2-C" based on this one dream that we know for certain the Dream Depot has inside of it and of its size. And even if someone wants to point out and cite the very likely non existant quote of each and every dream being parallel or the exact same, that still wouldn't override what I've shared so far of them being very distinctly variable in size, so I am quite certain that this will be accepted, unlike prior threads that haven't brought up the points listed.
 
I suppose I'm in agreement for now.

Though the characters scaling to the Chaos Heart would be 2-C rather than Low 2-C.

Edit: They'd probably stay 2-B actually since the Chaos Heart would've destroyed all possibilities
 
Ye, pretty sure Chaos Heart wielders would be 2-B if someone were to count and tally the number of outright known universes that would get busted if we discredit the Dream Depot since dreams and dream worlds are clearly considered variable in size less so than a universe.

It's likely in the hundreds of universes at very least for their multiverse.

This basically tanks the Zeekeeper's and Antasma's 2-B rating too for depending on the size of dreams.
 
Both of your arguments sounds like you're just nitpicking the wording to death.

First one doesn't have to mean that Bowser cram multiple dreams in one dream world. It could as easily means that he's making it so that this dream world only contains what he dreams. It doesn't have to imply that many separate dreams would be in this one world.

Second one is even worse. "Dreaming big" is a common expression that has nothing to do with the actual physical size of your dreams. Even in the context presented above, nothing states that this is about actual literal size. You're just taking this expression way too literally.

Your final argument...isn't really an argument. We only see one part of the dream, it doesn't mean that it's literally all there is to them. It doesn't contradict them being universal in size.
 
First one, its pretty clear its plural in the meaning of dreams only fit in this one world by even the star spirits saying its affecting them one by one. Otherwise, he'd just say I'm gonna fill this dream with my dream. Dreams being singular matter in context if dreams in all ways are being said to be consistently universe sized. If even two dreams are needed to fill a dream the size of a universe, that clearly proves variability.

Second, dreaming big does matter if big is a relation to size. That dreaming is interpreted and dependent on the dreamer's talent in question is stated to matter.

I bring up the visible size because that's really all that we have to go off of.

Any actual arguement that all the dreams are parallel or the exact same size is still needed to equate them all to the Future Dream. Semantics on each being called "dreams" or "dream worlds" is an fallacy of definition and association here. The positive claim is that they are all the same size.

@ Mav

"They'd probably stay 2-B actually since the Chaos Heart would've destroyed all possibilities"

I really don't remember where all possibilities is stated. Unless its the Japanese version or something.

"It is a hole in the very dimensional fabric of space! Such a strange phenomenon... Is it near or far? None know, It may appear small now, but it will only grow. And in the end it will swallow all existence.. All worlds, all dimensions..."

"All dimensions" suffices tho for a very high 2-C or 2-B going by Merlon.
 
Okay, first off why are we assuming that dreams vary in size? Nothing at all implies that only a single dream out there is the size of a universe. Dreams varying in size doesn't make a lot of sense, there's no reason why they would be different in size. Also, this isn't the first time a dream has been reffered to a universe. Dreambert says that evil has befallen in the real world. He then goes on to say we must return to that world, which means he refers the dream worlds as their own separate worlds. In which worlds have been reffered to universes before in Mario such as Galaxy 2 and Super Paper Mario. He also claims the Zeekeeper can cross dimensions. Dimensions is referring to dreams as the fight takes place within the dream world. So we have more evidence of dreams being reffered to as universes. Not to mention that in Dream Team, they don't refer to just one dream, but all of them. And yes, the dreams in Dream Team should scale to the ones in the Dream Depot as they essentially the same and the fourth time where the main theme in Mario is about dreams.

Bowser's statement does not mean he will contain several dreams into a single one. This is not only contradicted by the fact that Bowser's only dream was for a strong opponent meaning that is only a single dream, but that the word dreams doesn't exactly mean more than one. For example, people can claim they have hopes and dreams of becoming famous. Here they are using the "s" at the end as well, but only have one dream. This is the same case.

Since when does dreaming big actually make the dream world's differ in size? Dreaming big is often reffered to as people wanting more. Another example, someone dreams of winning a million dollars, but another person dreams of winning ten million dollars. The second person here is dreaming bigger. That term only means to have a higher standard for what you want or how much you want. It does NOT refer to literal bigger dreams.

Just because we can only see a dreams starry sky does not automatically win that's its full size, I might as well say a universe realm isn't really a universe because we've only seen its starry sky. We can't see the entire thing.

Overall I heavily disgaree with this.
 
Yeah... this feels terrifingly nit picky. I don't know about you, but "dream" is not a singular thing. Unless you are specifying one dream in particular or the ability to dream itself, the word is literally almost always used in plurals. This feels like incredibly reaching, as I am tempted to say anyone that has read enough could agree.

Second is just a saying... I am terribly confused why would you ever take this statement as a factual, take-it-at-face-value line. Dreaming big is also a saying, one you would only associate to factual size if you were trying to scrounge whatever nonexistent amount of evidence you could for this... odd downgrade.

Your use of "fallacy" is downright ridiculous as well. A is B and is also C, so therefore B is C. That's the association fallacy, completely useless and devoid of meaning when there's no A or B or C, only a single thing, dreams. I don't even know what nonexistent fallacy of definition you see anywhere.
 
First of all, the "Fill it with my dreams" is just a metaphorical statement. He's not literally talking about squeezing multiple dream worlds into it, he just means he's going to distort it the way he sees fit. Second, it's the same with the "Nobody dreams bigger then they do." That statement has absolutely nothing to do with the size; all that means is that Mario and his friends dream more excitedly than they do.

With those out of the way, Future Dream is consistently a Universe. I'll explain why it proves the other Dream Worlds are universes as well, but first Future Dream, this clearly states wonders of the universe. Universe in context is referring to Future Dream, meaning Future Dream is clearly a universe.

Next, when she says Dream of the Universe, she does not mean "Dream within the Universe", she clearly means Dream about the Universe or Dream containing the universe. If you want proof, it's consistent with the next one where Dream of toys doesn't mean dream within toys, but rather dream containing lots of toys. So in context, Future Dream is definitely Universe sized.

If Future Dream is a universe, then all the Dream Worlds are universes. It's consistent throughout the entire franchise, not just Mario Party 5. So Sweet Dream, Toy Dream, Bowser's Nightmare and all that would all be universes in context. They're all parallel. Dream Team also has numerous statements about the Dream worlds being infinite in size. There is also only one Dream Orb per Dream World, with Zeekeeper stating to cross multiple dimensions which would include countless Dream Worlds. There's also statements consistent in Dream Team about Dream Worlds being born every time someone goes to sleep and them going to sleep every day for entire millennia.

Also, Super Mario RPG Legend of the Seven Stars also has consistent context about alternate realities, and even other universes. Like the Universe Culex came from happens to be a Dream World, and that's also called a universe complete with its own Space-Time Continuum. And Super Paper Mario also I recall Cal digging a source that mentions each and every dimension having its own parallel opposite dimension. And that's consistent with Subcon and Subspace being parallel dimensions. And based on World 4 which is called Daiuchu (Literal meaning The Universe) all the dimensions in Super Paper Mario are also Universes. Just as Flipside and Flopside are also parallel universes, so are Subcon and Subspace and every single Dream World. You absolutely positively have to look outside of Mario Party 5 and look at the whole verse to truly see the size of the multiverse.

Side note, Dream Depot is more like a multi-universe constructing machine rather than a world in itself. But it turns dreams into entire universes. Also, Color Splash also has a bunch of stuff about parallel universes. And Bowser's Inside Story reveals that each and every cell; blood cell and brain cell, in Bowser's body is a sentient life form and those cells also dream too. But I'll get to even bigger stuff related to color Splash.

But all in all, all Dream worlds are Universes, Dream Depot is consistent with Dream Worlds mentioned in other Mario games, and a bunch more stuff. Regarding this blog it does a good job overall at explaining Mario is a multiverse. Though I'll make my own at some point to give stronger arguments and remove some iffy details. Like the Real World being canon to the multiverse. It is true that our world is canon to the Mario Multiverse by for different reason. Mario is Missing is not canon. But Thousand Year Door does have some hints of our world being canon to their multiverse.

Also, Saikou is right, this is wayyy too knit picky. Plus, some of the stuff were brought up in other threads which I thought you already participated in. Didn't you include links in one of you own blogs regarding color Splash having parallel universes.
 
The cavalry has arrived and I'm not impressed by the lack of links given for the parallelism of dreams size. Give me a bit to write up a rebuttal then.
 
I have zero opinion. I'm the Kirby/Pokémon/Zelda guy. Mario isn't as much of my expertise as some like to think. You handle this amongst yourselves.
 
What links are even needed? You are quite literally spewing nothing more than what sounds like honest to God nonsense by taking sayings as objectively literal statements.

I hones to God can't imagine what were you thinking about doing such a thing. Your reply to Saikou doesn't even have any proof, only half-baked justifcations for taking this as literal.
 
Also, you do realize "Filling it with my dreams could be interpreted as a 2-C/2-B statement for base Bowser.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
Okay, first off why are we assuming that dreams vary in size? Nothing at all implies that only a single dream out there is the size of a universe. Dreams varying in size doesn't make a lot of sense, there's no reason why they would be different in size. Also, this isn't the first time a dream has been reffered to a universe. Dreambert says that evil has befallen in the real world. He then goes on to say we must return to that world, which means he refers the dream worlds as their own separate worlds. In which worlds have been reffered to universes before in Mario such as Galaxy 2 and Super Paper Mario. He also claims the Zeekeeper can cross dimensions. Dimensions is referring to dreams as the fight takes place within the dream world. So we have more evidence of dreams being reffered to as universes. Not to mention that in Dream Team, they don't refer to just one dream, but all of them. And yes, the dreams in Dream Team should scale to the ones in the Dream Depot as they essentially the same and the fourth time where the main theme in Mario is about dreams.

> Why are we assuming dreams need to necessarily be the same size? Nothing implies that all of them are the same size. The same analogy doesn't fly. World is a vague term that can mean varying settings, which is not at all certain here. Dimensions only prove that the dreams have space, not that they are all equal

Bowser's statement does not mean he will contain several dreams into a single one. This is not only contradicted by the fact that Bowser's only dream was for a strong opponent meaning that is only a single dream, but that the word dreams doesn't exactly mean more than one. For example, people can claim they have hopes and dreams of becoming famous. Here they are using the "s" at the end as well, but only have one dream. This is the same case.

> Bowser's statement is using "dreams". Its gymnastics to say there's a different meaning here if its not used in singular term "dream"

Since when does dreaming big actually make the dream world's differ in size? Dreaming big is often reffered to as people wanting more. Another example, someone dreams of winning a million dollars, but another person dreams of winning ten million dollars. The second person here is dreaming bigger. That term only means to have a higher standard for what you want or how much you want. It does NOT refer to literal bigger dreams.

>Dreaming big is a definition of size as well. That it has multiple meanings doesnt change that.

Just because we can only see a dreams starry sky does not automatically win that's its full size, I might as well say a universe realm isn't really a universe because we've only seen its starry sky. We can't see the entire thing.

>Claming that they are universes without any additional context of size and the inherent varying meaning of world and dream is not a good arguement. This falls apart because size needs to be proven to be the same as the example dream that is the size of a universe.

Overall I heavily disgaree with this.
Click to expand...
 
Nothing implies they are different in size, you are the one running under a bigger assumption with no proof.

It's not gymanstics, how honest to God imbecilic can this be? Dream, again, is never used in a singular sense in any kind of normal sentence unless it refers to a particular, defined dream or the ability to dream itself. Feel free to show any examples of the contrary if you think I am wrong, this is nothing more than a manner of speech.

It is an unfounded assumption to think dreaming big is referring to the size of their dreams when it's a stupidly common saying. You are making the claims, actually back up that they mean anything of what you are saying.

Implication with no contradiction is pretty good, versus you literally having nothing.
 
There's like 4 definitions of dreams; the dream worlds are based on dreams people have when they go to sleep at night. The "Fill with my dreams" is more so "Fill it with my ambitions" rather than fusing Dream Worlds.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
No, just no. This is an obvious troll thread is obvious and I can explain why.

>Thanks for poisoning the well, troll poster

First of all, the "Fill it with my dreams" is just a metaphorical statement. He's not literally talking about squeezing multiple dream worlds into it, he just means he's going to distort it the way he sees fit. Second, it's the same with the "Nobody dreams bigger then they do." That statement has absolutely nothing to do with the size; all that means is that Mario and his friends dream more excitedly than they do.

>This example is very clearly a definition of physical capacity going by fill. Also I addressed this in Dat's comment

With those out of the way, Future Dream is consistently a Universe. I'll explain why it proves the other Dream Worlds are universes as well, but first Future Dream, this clearly states wonders of the universe. Universe in context is referring to Future Dream, meaning Future Dream is clearly a universe.

Next, when she says Dream of the Universe, she does not mean "Dream within the Universe", she clearly means Dream about the Universe or Dream containing the universe. If you want proof, it's consistent with the next one where Dream of toys doesn't mean dream within toys, but rather dream containing lots of toys. So in context, Future Dream is definitely Universe sized.

If Future Dream is a universe, then all the Dream Worlds are universes. It's consistent throughout the entire franchise, not just Mario Party 5. So Sweet Dream, Toy Dream, Bowser's Nightmare and all that would all be universes in context. They're all parallel. Dream Team also has numerous statements about the Dream worlds being infinite in size. There is also only one Dream Orb per Dream World, with Zeekeeper stating to cross multiple dimensions which would include countless Dream Worlds. There's also statements consistent in Dream Team about Dream Worlds being born every time someone goes to sleep and them going to sleep every day for entire millennia.

>Literally zero citation for parallel. They are all constructs that have zero definition outside of name to be considered the same size. Also, citation for "countless" or any of this?

Also, Super Mario RPG Legend of the Seven Stars also has consistent context about alternate realities, and even other universes. Like the Universe Culex came from happens to be a Dream World, and that's also called a universe complete with its own Space-Time Continuum. And Super Paper Mario also I recall Cal digging a source that mentions each and every dimension having its own parallel opposite dimension. And that's consistent with Subcon and Subspace being parallel dimensions. And based on World 4 which is called Daiuchu (Literal meaning The Universe) all the dimensions in Super Paper Mario are also Universes. Just as Flipside and Flopside are also parallel universes, so are Subcon and Subspace and every single Dream World. You absolutely positively have to look outside of Mario Party 5 and look at the whole verse to truly see the size of the multiverse.

>Culex doesn't come from a dream world. Literally no citation for this

>Literally no citation for alternate realities for dreams via Mario RPG

>Having a light side and a dark side for dimensions only applies to Flopside here, where it is spelled out by Merlon's opposite that the dimension was created after the fact. The planes in paper mario have a guidebook claim saying they are parallel. dreams in the entire series don't have such luck

https://imgur.com/SnBNvgC

Prima Guidebook: "The heroics Peach demonstrates in this mad dash across the parallel planes are impressive, especially when she has a showdown with...well,you'll see."

Side note, Dream Depot is more like a multi-universe constructing machine rather than a world in itself. But it turns dreams into entire universes. Also, Color Splash also has a bunch of stuff about parallel universes. And Bowser's Inside Story reveals that each and every cell; blood cell and brain cell, in Bowser's body is a sentient life form and those cells also dream too. But I'll get to even bigger stuff related to color Splash.

>The arguement for dream size doesn't matters on how many dreamers there are and more on the individual dream descriptions themselves. Again, dreams need to be all stated to be universes or some such equivalency via exposition. This is textbook association fallacy if all dimensions that are dreams don't have good reason to be the same size. The burden of proof here is on the positive claim to prove each and every one are all that size.

But all in all, all Dream worlds are Universes, Dream Depot is consistent with Dream Worlds mentioned in other Mario games, and a bunch more stuff. Regarding this blog it does a good job overall at explaining Mario is a multiverse. Though I'll make my own at some point to give stronger arguments and remove some iffy details. Like the Real World being canon to the multiverse. It is true that our world is canon to the Mario Multiverse by for different reason. Mario is Missing is not canon. But Thousand Year Door does have some hints of our world being canon to their multiverse.

>Mario being a multiverse isn't something I'm against. And Super Paper Mario outright states the player exists as the "great being who watches from another dimension" so our dimension exists in their universe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k1vCgZ8Kqo&feature=youtu.be&t=315

Also, Saikou is right, this is wayyy too knit picky. Plus, some of the stuff were brought up in other threads which I thought you already participated in. Didn't you include links in one of you own blogs regarding color Splash having parallel universes.

>The context there really only applies to Paper Mario's parallel worlds so, again, dreams don't have that sort of direct exposition that they are all the same size, at least from what I can find and dimensions do need that direct backing. Going by this logic, the "worlds" in Mario 64 are universes just because of name, even though they are treated like 4-A pocket dimensions for similar reasons as dream worlds should be here because of lack of exposition.
Click to expand...
 
Future Dream alone is universe sized, it's not some special dream containing every other dream, it's literally a dream next to each and every other dream. There for, but nature, they are indeed parallel to each other. Furthermore, this has been discussed and debunked to death, and Dino Ranger Black is probably more tired than anyone else about this.

And actually, Dino and Cal explained in the old SPM thread that it applies to all universes.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
What's the reason we assume all dreams are universe in size?.
Click to expand...
Pretty much what DatOneWeeb said.

"Okay, first off why are we assuming that dreams vary in size? Nothing at all implies that only a single dream out there is the size of a universe. Dreams varying in size doesn't make a lot of sense, there's no reason why they would be different in size. Also, this isn't the first time a dream has been reffered to a universe. Dreambert says that evil has befallen in the real world. He then goes on to say we must return to that world, which means he refers the dream worlds as their own separate worlds. In which worlds have been reffered to universes before in Mario such as Galaxy 2 and Super Paper Mario. He also claims the Zeekeeper can cross dimensions. Dimensions is referring to dreams as the fight takes place within the dream world. So we have more evidence of dreams being reffered to as universes. Not to mention that in Dream Team, they don't refer to just one dream, but all of them. And yes, the dreams in Dream Team should scale to the ones in the Dream Depot as they essentially the same and the fourth time where the main theme in Mario is about dreams."

Not to mention, like mentioned above, there's nothing really backing Mephistus besides taking manners of speech literally.
 
We consider each dream to be the same size because of the fact that the dream that is reffered to a universe is, well, a dream. We have three statements with dreams being reffered to as universes, it would be nitpicking to say at this point that only certain dreams are universes. You claim world is a vauge term, despite the fact I said that world has been used as universes before in Mario. Galaxy 2/SPM have worlds and dimensions as universes. The dreams being reffered to as dimensions is further evidence that they are universes, the Zeekeeper is using dimensional travel in that fight. The Real World definitely refers to the universe. And seeing as Dreambert compares the dream worlds to the real world, they are indeed universal in size.

You just ignored what I said. Yes, Bowser says "dreams" when chasing him but again, it's literally contradicted in the ending of the game. This is blatant proof that he had one specific dream, not several. You also ignored my example.

Since when was dreaming big a definition of size? You gave no evidence suggesting this at all.

Final argument would only make me repeat myself.
 
@Dark

In my opinion, it being a dream next to a dream doesn't 100% mean they are both the same size. Unless it legitimately says they are "parallel" to each other

Edit: Nevermind, read the other comments.
 
@LordGriffin, read above, there's multiple universe statements regarding multiple dream worlds.
 
Literally already adddressed that Dat. World and dream doesn't have a static meaning across fiction you can apply here World is also used in the series to call stretches of levels that are barely hundreds of meters long since Super Mario Bros and onward and can mean anything from sceneries from their planet to celestial objects in between. Cite anywhere that all the dreams are stated to be parallel and I'd concede. I have yet to see something even simple like the Super Mario RPG dreams being references as "alternate realities" claimed in this thread. The dreams we see in game are gateways that are bigger on the inside, existing by each other isn't a good proof at all lol. I've already given my points as to why the literal meaning is usable here in the contradictory examples given.

Just because a series calls something by the same name it doesnt mean much of anything. Dimensions as a whole vary in size. There's zero reason to assume that they are the same size without proof. The comparison with Dreambeart is literally just a reference to worlds, world by definition has no set size, a world in Mario 64 is just 4-A. We need proof the dreams sizes are equivalent. This is asking me to prove a negative when the positive claim is made by you dudes using a textbook association fallacy, no other series should be using this for dimensions without a comparison drawn:

"Nothing at all implies that only a single dream out there is the size of a universe"

Also, the size of the dreams in MP5 are clearly not referencing cosmic scale qualities and relevantly close to determined for the dreamers to be thinking that scale. Like....dreaming about the undersea isn't even close to universe sized.
 
Also, it's from this video where it's stated; "There is a front and back to all things" mentioning the parallel dimensions of Flipside and Flopside and how every Universe actually has an opposite universe.

@Mephistus, you literally addressed nothing. "It being called world" is not even a basis, the basis was that the Dream Worlds were parallel to "the Real World." Also, of multiple dreams have universal, and they are indeed parallel dimensions, then it's weird for them to no all be universes.
 
Ok, so that would give the possibility of a second universe to the dream depot to the future dream. Making it "at least 2-C".

Dreambert referencing the real world isn't a gopd reference since the meaning of world isn't static or specific enough. "That world" can simply just mean another location, that's not a clear reference to direct parallelism and a good enough comparison, especially given the definition meaning of the word "world" overall. That's not even saying that the real world and the dream world he came from had the same qualities or even compared size in those lines. Dreams being simply referred to as dimensions isnt a quality of them all being equal. We know they carry space.

Maybe If my prior comment was addressed then there'd be something to reply to as of now I feel the same way.
 
"That World" wasn't the basis of it. "The Real World" is more static than simply saying world. Dream Worlds also have literal bottomless pits that lore describes them. The other dreams are still parallel to Future Dream as is Bowser's Nightmare. Also, once again, there is literally nothing special about Future Dream compared to quite literally each and every other dream world out there. We can't just assume they're all different sizes.
 
The real world being a world doesn't mean the meaning is static when in reference to the settings in dreams. World as a comparison here isn't reflecting or expositing on either of the two dimensions sizes. Its a reference to different locations and settings. The line has no bearing on a size comparison here.

Dream worlds having bottomless pits sounds very iffy going by how that works in general. Bottomless pits can be hyperbole here given how we see them work on Mario's planet, and at best that'd only allow assumptions for those specific dreams to be that universe size. The ones that don't have such a description or not known of would still mean their size is unknown. A painting world in Mario 64 has a bottomless pit, that hardly means they all are universe sized, in the same vein. Just going by them all being named "Worlds" wouldn't mean they all have to be the same size.

Literally there is zero reason to assume dimensions/dreams are the same size or parallel just by name. That's asking to prove a negative, you are assuming the opposite. We can't assume anything unless given proof. Literally not seeing any evidence for parallelism besides this being claimed again and again. Dream worlds by name mean zero regarding size. Planets come in all sizes, are all planets the size of Earth? Clearly what's being claimed here is an association fallacy on the size of dream worlds.
 
The bottomless pits in Mario's castle are just game mechanics, but Dream's Deep had some stuff about a "Bottomless pit filled with portals to countless and innumerable dream worlds" that was discussed numerous times.

Dream Worlds are Dream Worlds, it makes 0 sense for one or two dream worlds to be universes when quite literally each and every other dream world born on the same context and requires to same amount of effort to destroy individually and has all the same challenges for them to not be comparable.

Also, don't compare universes to planets; planets are clearly all finite sized with solid shapes. Universes are much more vast. It's not by name, it's by context, creation, cosmology, and lore. There is also context in Super Paper Mario that compares the dimensions to dreams.
 
Regarding the Dream Depot, it seems like a false equivalency to state that every dream is universal in size based on solely Future Dream. Each Dream World in MP5 seems to be depicted as a unique world based its dream. While Future Dream is the "Dream of the Universe", and thus a universe, every other dream in the game is...

So yeah, all Dreams are fundamentally different from each other, and using Future Dream's size as a baseline for all Dreams is erroneous unless there's a statement saying all of the Dream Depot's dreams are equal in size.
 
"Bottomless pit filled with portals to countless and innumerable dream worlds"

> Citation for the countless stuff? And no the bottomless pits here shouldn't be assumed to be treated as easily infinite with such wording. Even if we count this, and a big if given how the mechanics are known to work on Mario's planet, the size of the Depot would only be added to being a higher level of 2-C via those specific dreams.

"requires to same amount of effort to destroy individually and has all the same challenges for them to not be comparable."

> Bowser never exposits that he is using the same effort to destroy the realms if that's what you are talking about.This smells of headcanon. It makes zero sense to assume the dimensions are the same size by name. Planets are planets, it makes zero sense to assume that all planets in the universe are all the same size going by they are all made via gravitational processes in the same contextual vein. Again, give a source material that all dreams are equivalent and this whole matter would be wrapped up.

Maverick definitely wrapped up what I said as well. There is literally a fundamental association fallacy going on here and I won't stand for it.
 
Except there's the fact that dream worlds are always constantly being born each and every time a sentient life form goes to sleep; there are 10^79 dream worlds on day 1, 10^158 on day 2, and the list goes on. It's arbitrary to assume that the one and only is a universe. Bowser's Nightmare is also inherently more intimidating than Future Dream; that should imply to be no smaller than Future Dream.

Also, once again; people aren't looking outside MP5 enough. When quite literally at least 5 different games have treated dream worlds as being alternate realities and/or universes. Especially with everything being canon.

It takes comparable effort for each and ever level as anyone who's played through the story can tell; with Bowser's Nightmare being the most challenging. Especially on playthroughs where Future Dream is the 1st.

Saikou too has also said his peace saying that this whole thread is just another failed attempt to constantly repeat the same debunked claims.
 
It is arbitrary to assume that they all are and a textbook association fallacy to assume that the dreams/dimensions are the same size via name. You don't even cite your numbers from where you are getting 10^79. Being more intimidating means literally nothing in regards to size lol.

It'd be extremely simple if you would cite where its stated all dreams are alternate realities or universes or the like, not just single ones, which you have yet to do outside of claims that would help clear this up. Given what we see in MP5 and no additional context like with the planes / parallel worlds in Paper Mario, there isn't much to say. Dimensions don't get special treatment in Mario to say they are all universe sized, dimensions qualitatively smaller than a universe in the series exist and are referred to as a "dimension" too going by Dimension D and the 4-A realms in Super Mario 64.

It taking comparable effort to run around the game boards during the MP5 literally means nothing if you don't have a statement that Bowser took the same effort in each dream to "ruin" it, which is pretty clear you don't and even then such a statement doesn't imply any distinction on each Dreams size and more of the capacity to ruin it. This is headcanon even then this isn't a direct relevant citation to size for all individual dreams in the series being the same as Future Dream and not just the dreams shown in the MP5 game. Even if you counted all the dreams in MP5 they wouldn't add up to 2-B tier, regardless that your justification is completely unfounded headcanon that Bowser was somehow using the same effort on each dream or that the "struggles" were equal in each game board, regardless that each game board itself had a different size to it and number of spaces, this is gibberish and completely a non-sequitor rebuttal.

Votes hardly matter here, the arguements therin do. The claim you, and Saikou and a few others I suppose, are making here is that all the dreams in the series are the same size as Future Dream. This claim is so far completely unfounded and saying that its a failed attempt to downgrade the verse is just another attempt to poison the well here.
 
I don't care about this downgrade, but your logic is faulty.

"It's arbitrary to assume that only one is a universe."

We only have proof that one is a universe and the dreams are implies to be different sizes so you have to prove that there are other dreams that are universe sized.

"Bowser's Nightmare is also inherently more intimidating than Future Dream; that should imply to be no smaller than Future Dream."

That logic is just...bad. How does it being intimidating relevant to its size? That just means it's scary.

"Also, once again; people aren't looking outside MP5 enough. When quite literally at least 5 different games have treated dream worlds as being alternate realities and/or universes. Especially with everything being canon."

Please provide evidence of this. Otherwise this is just you making up headcanons.

"It takes comparable effort for each and ever level as anyone who's played through the story can tell; with Bowser's Nightmare being the most challenging. Especially on playthroughs where Future Dream is the 1st."

That really doesn't mean anything. What even is this line of logic?

"Saikou too has also said his peace saying that this whole thread is just another failed attempt to constantly repeat the same debunked claims."

You can't say you've debunked it when you have failed to provide sufficient evidence to support your refutes against the downgrade.
 
The only one making up headcanons here is you @Mephistus. And yes, the effort required to distort them is truly consistent with them being Universal tier feats. Why aren't the other dreams corrupted in an instant if Future Dream was that much bigger? Also, I already addressed in detail that Future Dream is literally just an average dream. If at least one average dream is a universe, then all of them a universes. The game's very plot literally treats all dreams equally in both size, and significance. It's really not hard to miss.

You have played Dream Team right? All dreams in Dream Team are cosmic sized and parallel to each other. 10^79 is the number of particles in the universe, which according to Color Splash and shown in Neo's blog, even atoms and molecules in the Mario multiverse are sentient based on the lore statement about everything with color being sentient. Obviously that was ignored, because there's a lot of things said there. The Bowser's Inside Story scans about blood cells being sentient life forms seems to have been taken off of YouTube, but those are still reasonable back ups. Also, here's another example of a parallel universe.

Super Mario Bros 2, Super Mario RPG Legend of the Seven Stars, Mario Party 5, Mario and Luigi Dream Team, and Paper Mario series. All of these examples have Dream Worlds. And having at least some universal statements regarding them individually. Subcon and Subspace already have parallel universe statements. So not only does there exist more than one dream cosmic size, there also exists at least two dream worlds that are parallel, so they should all be parallel by tradition. Subspace description says it's an alternate dimension and it mirrors subcon; meaning it's parallel.

At this point, it's best to look up previous threads. Being called "Worlds" or "Dimension" was never the basis of the argument. The fact remains is that all Dream Worlds are comparable to Future Dream. If it was that easy to create Future Dream, there's no reason for it to be just as easy to create a whole bunch of universes. Lots of other people have posted scans countless times on previous threads, I don't have to dig for literally each and every single detail each and every time someone complains about this again and again. This really should be a discussion rule. The rest of us actually have given out scans.
 
"Why aren't the other dreams corrupted in an instant if Future Dream was that much bigger?"

Because fiction doesn't have to be consistent with what appears logical, especially when there is evidence pointing to the other dreams not being the same size.

"You have played Dream Team right? All dreams in Dream Team are cosmic sized and parallel to each other. 10^79 is the number of particles in the universe, which according to Color Splash and shown in Neo's blog, even atoms and molecules in the Mario multiverse are sentient based on the lore statement about everything with color being sentient. Obviously that was ignored, because there's a lot of things said there. Also, here's another example of a parallel universe."

Provide evidence of this, you word isn't enough. Also that video you linked is Paper Mario, the Dream Depot doesn't even appear in that game.

"Super Mario Bros 2, Super Mario RPG Legend of the Seven Stars, Mario Party 5, Mario and Luigi Dream Team, and Paper Mario series. All of these examples have Dream Worlds. And having at least some universal statements regarding them individually."

Again, please provide evidence backing this up.

"At this point, it's best to look up previous threads. Being called "Worlds" or "Dimension" was never the basis of the argument. The fact remains is that all Dream Worlds are comparable to Future Dream. If it was that easy to create Future Dream, there's no reason for it to be just as easy to create a whole bunch of universes. Lots of other people have posted scans countless times on previous threads, I don't have to dig for literally each and every single detail each and every time someone complains about this again and again. This really should be a discussion rule. The rest of us actually have given out scans."

If these scans exist and were not taken out of context, you should have put them on the profiles so people know where you're getting this information from. Otherwise people will just keep on questioning it. I'm literally just asking for scans here.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Ar1216789
Possible 1-C Upgrade for Cookie Run - Dream Transcendences
Replies
4
Views
650
Ar1216789
Ar1216789
SuperMarioGamers3
  • Locked
Super Mario Bros. 2-A CRT
2 3
Replies
111
Views
7K
Omnificence
Omnificence
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
  • Locked
Dreams Into Nightmares [Mario Cosmology Downgrade]
9 10 11
Replies
433
Views
34K
Deagonx
Deagonx
Teach1121
Wanna go over jinwoo revision before i post a thread
Replies
29
Views
1K
Digital_Franz
Digital_Franz
Psychomaster35
Battle for Dream Island: Well, I'm Not The One Who Doesn't Know How High Their Stat Values Are!
Replies
14
Views
738
James_Plays_4_Games
James_Plays_4_Games
Back
Top