Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

[AyeZ2]

How is this nearing 600 messages

 

[Phoenks]

Only staff votes impact a CRT

I have had 2 staff say that genius works better. The two of them are still seemingly thinking about it, but there has yet to be any staff support for E.G.

Also, I think it'd just be plain stupid to ignore like 30 votes of the people (blue names), especially on a thread like this one....

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

agree with removing EG and agree with genius fra

 

[RoggerReggor]

Btw the memory thing was never debunked. All you guys did was prove that Ayanokouji's memory ability is even more overpowered because he can actually subjectively choose what to remember and what not to remember.

Not to mention, you again are under the presumption that my point was to completely discard feats that used his memory. This is not the case, I only suggested that feats of learning things in short times/at a young age, would be significantly less impressive as a result of his overpowered memory ability. His knowledge and capacity to use said knowledge is not affected by this factor either.

Regardless, the debate has evolved far beyond the memory stuff, and in fact, I have repeated multiple times that it does not change the downgrade even if you were to discard those arguments.

You cannot learn things by just memorizing. Memorization chiefly involves you trying to memorize stuff, but never does it help with learning, that's quite literally the entire point of you being never able to learn academic concepts with rote learning but need to apply your own intelligence to figure concepts out. If White Room exams were only memorization, then Kiyotaka would be gaining 1st rank every single time because he would have just memorized stuff, which is completely wrong because Kiyotaka is an adaptive genius, a person who believes in figuring things out than naturally being good at them.

This is called as an adaptive genius (and it is an actual concept) and differs largely from a natural genius.

Memorization to its utmost degree doesn't help with anything, in fact, Suzukake's theory, which you have been using, itself states that Kiyotaka would face effects of it if he was really using memorization to learn things, which he canonically never did, so no, your entire notion is wrong.

Memorization only helps with taking in information, but better information analysis would severely rise above that point, not to mention you have many more abilities like Bodily Kinesthetic, Fluid Reasoning/Matrix Reasoning which help much more with learning than just pure memorization.

Also, if Kiyotaka has no natural learning ability, then he would have never passed Shiro (a confirmed natural genius who got good at things from the first tries itself) in any way, who canonically had enough potential to last 10 more years in the White Room, so it doesn't even come down to memorization, but it is now just your own theory, even Suzukake used the word "maybe" while addressing it and its non-canon anyways, Kiyotaka himself criticizes who do it.

 

[RoggerReggor]

It's fiction but you still have to at least try and be logical.

IF humans can make this cirriculum, then it naturally can't be beyond the knowledge of humans. That doesn't make any sense.

And if you pair this with the context that this is for gifted students (adolescents) trying to learn it in a limited amount of time, it starts to make a lot more sense if this is simply just an excruciatingly difficult curriculum for that age group.

The primary reason why his knowledge surpasses the human limits is because he has perfect memory which allows him to not forget anything. For example, I am currently trying to get my stuff figured out in medicine, but most of my seniors have confirmed that almost 60% of the stuff you are taught is something which you may not even recall 3 years later. That's the difference, a normal person forgets and that's why their knowledge deteriorates. You may learn as much as Kiyotaka, but you will eventually start to forget it.

 

[Fezzih_007]

It's because of how Kei interjects into the conversation. She begins by insinuating that Horikita knows who the person constantly voting Yes each round is and she is concealing that fact. In simple terms, Kei isn't smart enough to deduce that, and

So if it was just a signal, then Kei in that instant needed to be able to assess the situation and determine that Horikita actually knew who the traitor was. (which I doubt anyone here who knows the series would believe she could do)

I mean, I actually think she probally could do It trought. It don't seem so hard considering the situation, and Kei show some level of sharpeness before, sometimes, little times.
But

So that means Ayanokouji had to give this information to Kei when he told her to respond to the signal.

Yeah, I can probally see what you saying. Ayanokoji could have instructed for Kei If the last question. Involved expulsion.

He knew that there would be a question about expulsion and someone (Kushida) would be voting in favor, he knew that Horikita would know which student is anonymously doing this and he needed to tell Kei this so she would say as much during her interjection.

But I still think Ayano just trought of the possibilty of that being the case, and din't actually accuretely predict that would happen, since there's nothing for him to predict.

 

[RoggerReggor]

since there's nothing for him to predict.

That's called Hot Reading, when you have enough information of your opponent to be habituated with how they perform in situations, and you can predict their actions and draw out the possibilities of what they will do and what they will not upon what they have done in the past.

 

[MCH2]

The primary reason why his knowledge surpasses the human limits is because he has perfect memory which allows him to not forget anything. For example, I am currently trying to get my stuff figured out in medicine, but most of my seniors have confirmed that almost 60% of the stuff you are taught is something which you may not even recall 3 years later. That's the difference, a normal person forgets and that's why their knowledge deteriorates. You may learn as much as Kiyotaka, but you will eventually start to forget it.

What’s even the point of arguing about his memory, when not only is it the same regurgitated arguments we had before but it’s also irrelevant to where the current discussion is at? Ayanokouji easily meets the requirements for both knowledge and vastly surpassing humans. It’s the other criteria where he doesn’t even come close. If you can’t show that he meets the other criteria (which are quite high) with things that haven’t already been debunked or presented, then we’re all wasting time here arguing and not advancing the discussion one millimeter. The goal should be to work towards a consensus so we may get on with fixing his intelligence section, not just endlessly argue like it’s debate club……

The EG side has failed to convince a single person that wasn’t already supporting. Yet still never conceded any ground nor accepted or suggested any compromise. You’re just going after the weakest arguments you spot and endlessly pushing back.

OP’s arguments aren’t even the strongest against EG because he was arguing against a horribly inaccurate profile. I would say the strongest argument against EG is simply reading his new intelligence section, it speaks for itself.

This is where we’re at. Please, if you’re not breaking new ground in this discussion, just wait for staff to make their judgement.

Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

* But Nobody Came What do I do... Loved that UT reference haha

vsbattles.com

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I mean, I actually think she probally could do It trought. It don't seem so hard considering the situation, and Kei show some level of sharpeness before, sometimes, little times.

I mean this is a pretty big stretch though. Kei has shown some sharpness and is more clever than she lets on, but going from that to assuming she could make this kind of deduction almost instantly and then implement it into Koji giving her a signal to act is a bit much.

Also coming to a conclusion like that isn't a simple thing, it only seems easy in hindsight knowing what Kushida was doing. All the information they had was that 2 people and and now 1 (Kouenji stopped) were voting yes to expel each time. Horikita is trying to convince the class to all vote no. From that to determine that Horikita knows who the traitor is and is hiding that fact is not easy.

 

[Fezzih_007]

That's called Hot Reading, when you have enough information of your opponent to be habituated with how they perform in situations, and you can predict their actions and draw out the possibilities of what they will do and what they will not upon what they have done in the past.

Wow, that really don't change my opinion.

 

[Fezzih_007]

but going from that to assuming she could make this kind of deduction almost instantly

I mean, it don't need to be instantly, for the time Ayano stop coughing It could take enough time for her to figure out something. Like, her herself said It was a hunch.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I mean, it don't need to be instantly, for the time Ayano stop coughing It could take enough time for her to figure out something. Like, her herself said It was a hunch.

Even if the timeframe is a few seconds that doesn't change much. Also Koji mentions in the second scan that Horikita would realize that this isn't just Kei "making a thoughtful remark" and would realize due to his connection with Kei that this was his doing. So this is what Ayanokouji instructed her to say, not something she just came up with.

 

[RoggerReggor]

What’s even the point of arguing about his memory, when not only is it the same regurgitated arguments we had before but it’s also irrelevant to where the current discussion is at? Ayanokouji easily meets the requirements for both knowledge and vastly surpassing humans. It’s the other criteria where he doesn’t even come close. If you can’t show that he meets the other criteria (which are quite high) with things that haven’t already been debunked or presented, then we’re all wasting time here arguing and not advancing the discussion one millimeter. The goal should be to work towards a consensus so we may get on with fixing his intelligence section, not just endlessly argue like it’s debate club……

The EG side has failed to convince a single person that wasn’t already supporting. Yet still never conceded any ground nor accepted or suggested any compromise. You’re just going after the weakest arguments you spot and endlessly pushing back.

OP’s arguments aren’t even the strongest against EG because he was arguing against a horribly inaccurate profile. I would say the strongest argument against EG is simply reading his new intelligence section, it speaks for itself.

Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

* But Nobody Came What do I do... Loved that UT reference haha

vsbattles.com

This is where we’re at. Please, if you’re not breaking new ground in this discussion, just wait for staff to make their judgement.

You are missing the point. I am not arguing about memory, and rather the fact of why he has that much of knowledge.

With that, I will post an analysis on the Y1V1 strategy executed under a pressure situation and was thought of in a moments' worth of time. However, I am currently suffering from bouts of fever combined with extreme muscle pain, so I will return in a matter of few hours and post it.

 

[Black-san112]

didnt you guys say you will stop arguing and wait for staff vote so how come you are all just still at it

 

[Fezzih_007]

Even if the timeframe is a few seconds that doesn't change much

Kinda, for me is more beliable she could have trought about what Ayano as insinuating.

Also Koji mentions in the second scan that Horikita would realize that this isn't just Kei "making a thoughtful remark" and would realize due to his connection with Kei that this was his doing. So this is what Ayanokouji instructed her to say, not something she just came up with.

Din't you read that I agree with the fact he could have instructed her?

Yeah, I can probally see what you saying. Ayanokoji could have instructed for Kei If the last question

I not disagreing with that premisse.

 

[AyeZ2]

didnt you guys say you will stop arguing and wait for staff vote so how come you are all just still at it

COTE is clearly a very touchy subject on this site lol

 

[Fezzih_007]

didnt you guys say you will stop arguing and wait for staff vote so how come you are all just still at it

Is Fun.

 

[Tomfer]

At this point, I wouldn't blame the mods if they just said "Agree FRA" and then leave.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

At this point, I wouldn't blame the mods if they just said "Agree FRA" and then leave.

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

 

[DaReaperMan]

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

is this the new meta to get CRT approval?

Yes

 

[RoggerReggor]

NOTE: The source for the entire strategy is Year 2 Volume 1 and it goes into a lot of detail for the strategy. As it would not be possible for attaching an entire volume worth of images by capturing them, I have included everything in short. A reader of the series, can however confirm if anything is wrong with it and give a confirmation on its validity.

An Explanation Regarding Kiyotaka Ayanokouji's Year 2 Volume 1 Strategy and Inferences:
Short Summary: Kiyotaka Ayanokouji completely infers the meaning of psychological attacks from Ichika Amasawa and Tsukishiro Tokinari and does two very perfect and important tactics which help him to achieve a variety of aims to completely counter the strategy and in turn, safe not only himself, but his entire class and help them very interestingly.

---

Context: Tsukishiro Tokinari (the Acting Director of the school) happens to indirectly or directly get involved in the setting of an exam and a task, both of which happen to be incredibly damaging to Kiyotaka as it will get him expelled.

• Partner Exam (more detailed version here): This exam, as the name suggests, is a special exam which involves partnering up of two students - one from the first year, and one from second year, to give an academic exam. Now, here's a catch. Both the students will be safe and would pass if they manage to get a score above a pre-determined average score, however, if they do not, both will face consequences - the first year in the partnership would not receive any private points for three months, and the second year in the partnership will be immediately expelled from the school (unless they have a Protection Point). Any student suspected and found to be marking wrong answers intentionally to lower their partner score would be immediately expelled irrespective of their year (though this rule would require fierce evidence collection and would be mostly unviable if the student doing it does it very secretively, though yes, it could only be done by students who had low academic scores).
• 20 million Private Points bounty on Kiyotaka's head: Don't get me wrong, nobody has to kill Kiyotaka. It's very simple, if any student is able to get Kiyotaka expelled from the school, they will be given 20 million Private Points (which is roughly about 136 thousand dollars in USD currency), though yes, this requires more confirmation with Tsukishiro about it to receive it.

Now, both of these severely damage Kiyotaka's presence.

• The Partner Exam gives the risk of Kiyotaka pairing up with a student who would intentionally get a lower score, thus lowering the score of the pair and getting Kiyotaka expelled, while only receiving a penalty of getting no Private Points for 3 months (which would be only 300 thousand points at maximum upon the current exchange rates), which is negligible with respect to the fact that they would be receiving 2 million Private Points for having them get expelled.
• The 20 million bounties obviously mean Kiyotaka will be attacked by a number of first years.

Kiyotaka, however, successfully and easily infers Tsukishiro's intentions behind it.

It is important to note that by this time, Tsukishiro had already revealed to Kiyotaka that a subject from the White Room, who had presumably surpassed even the likes of Kiyotaka would be enrolling in the school as a first year, and Kiyotaka infers that the said subject would be aiming to partner up with him and get the intentional lower score to have him expelled, so, Kiyotaka will have to prevent partnering with the said subject of White Room to prevent his own expulsion from the school.

---

Now, the important thing is that every 2nd year or 1st year will need to get them paired with a 1st year or a 2nd year respectively, but it would be very important for a 2nd year to get paired as expulsion is on the line while the 1st year get minor penalties with respect to that. There's a two-week time to search and get a partner, if a 2nd year or a 1st year is unable to search for a partner, then they will be randomly partnered with any student who hasn't been partnered already at eight in the morning on the day of the test.

Kiyotaka, Suzune Horikita decide to prioritize Ken Sudou's partnership first. Due to this, they approach a variety of first years. Many first years, at this point had decided to basically take points from the 2nd years to pair up in exchange. This meant that pairing for 2nd year with a 1st year was very hard.

It was decided that Sudou will pair with Ichika Amasawa, but in return, Ichika asks for a very odd favor, which is to have someone cook a meal for her. Kiyotaka is decided to cook for her. Now, for this, Kiyotaka has been tasked with shopping tools and utensils for cooking. Forget everything and just remember that they also buy a kitchen knife for this, this knife has an important role in the story further.

---

In the process of finding partners, there's a student named Housen Kazuomi who acts as the leader of Class 1-D, and volunteers to have his entire class to get partnered with an entire class, but in return, he demanded a million points.

Suzune finds it interesting, so she decides to negotiate upon it, for which, they go in a place to hide and discuss it silently, so three students of Class 2-D, Kiyotaka Ayanokouji, Ken Sudou and Suzune Horikita, and two students of Class 1-D, Kazuomi Housen and Tsubasa Nanase are presently at this secret venue where nobody else is there except them, for the purpose of negotiations. This happens to be a great mistake for Suzune. After being rejected for his offer, Housen gets violent. He attacks both Sudou and Suzune, and successfully defeats them fairly easily due to him being much stronger in the physical scaling chain than both.

However, when Housen is going to attack Kiyotaka, he withdraws a knife which he was given by Ichika. The reason why this can be inferred by Kiyotaka only is because it was the same knife Amasawa and him shopped for (and don't think about how there could be other knives of the same model, Kiyotaka had enough reasons of the knife being the only knife which came with a sheath, and that, he had observed the store fully when buying it, so he inferred that). Now,

• Housen begins to swing the knife in the direction of Kiyotaka.
• Kiyotaka, however, successfully analytically predicts that Housen was going to aim for himself and stab himself. He did this prediction upon knowing about the ownership of the knife, and by analyzing the position of the knife which could have been aiming for him as well, but he chose the option of Housen aiming for himself.
• Kiyotaka places his hand in between of the trajectory of the knife, this makes him get stabbed, and this is one of the tactics which helps Kiyotaka to counter both the strategies of Ichika and Tsukishiro.

Since I didn't explain Ichika's strategy, it was basically having Housen to self-harm himself. As the knife was already used by Kiyotaka to prepare the meal for Amasawa, it would have fingerprints of Kiyotaka. If Housen was stabbed, then the school would immediately think about it being done by Kiyotaka, and as the school directly objects violence (and this would be a violent act of usage of a fatal weapon), Kiyotaka would get expelled, and in fact, even get in legal troubles with the charges of possession of a fatal weapon and its usage for harming someone. This is a meticulous strategy because for someone to actually resist it, they would not only need to observe the entire shop fully to arrive at the conclusion of it being their own knife, but also analytically predict the trajectory of Housen's knife, and at the same time, react and have enough courage to stop Housen somehow.

It can be easy to say that Kiyotaka got himself injured while he could have stopped Housen by other means as well, but in reality, getting stabbed would have been the best outcome.

Tactical Measures:

• Getting stabbed: Kiyotaka decides to get stabbed. The reason why this is a better outcome than stopping the knife by other means and not getting injured himself is because it does two important things:
  1. Housen would be now recognized as the one doing violence, as the knife would have his fingerprints as well, and as a result, now Housen would be the one who would get expelled if the word was to get out.
  2. Housen could no longer use violent measures to threaten Suzune's class, as he himself could be threatened and blackmailed now, for any purpose.
• Partnership proposal: Kiyotaka decides to partner up with Housen himself, while having Housen agree with having his class volunteer to pair up with his own class. In this way, Kiyotaka secures a partner for himself and at the same time, assures a set of private points coming from his partnership as well, and prevent expulsion which would have caused his class to lose points if it happened.

Now, why would Kiyotaka decide to pair up with Housen even when Housen was already a very dangerous person who was going to go as far as causing extreme physical harms just for expelling someone. Well, there are three reasons behind it:

• Housen's loss: This is obvious but yes, Housen was basically in a huge loss of having an entire plan revealed to his opponent, meaning that he could no longer act on his own terms to get Kiyotaka expelled, but also, could get expelled himself.
• Housen's attitude in public: Housen behaved very violent and carelessly in public, a manner which attracted a lot of attention and even began to attack enmity from others. Kiyotaka upon his Cold Reading of Tsukishiro knew that if Tsukishiro were to give some advice to the said subject who was going to enroll as a first year to expel Kiyotaka, then he would advise that subject to remain as anonymous as possible and not to attract negative attention and obviously not get involved with Kiyotaka or people close to him violently, which could make that subject suspicious, therefore, Housen who was careless in public wouldn't be fulfilling this criteria itself and wouldn't be the said White Room subject.
• Housen's academic ability: Housen at the time possessed a B+ academic ability, which in the school terms is a fairly decent above the likes of most of the students in academics so getting a low score for him is basically impossible, so if he were to even get a low score intentionally, an investigation would have him get inevitably expelled.

So, Housen makes up a perfect partner for Kiyotaka.

After that, Kiyotaka also asks both of them the reasons for why they were even getting involved with expelling Kiyotaka in the first place, for which, Nanase, the other person with Housen herself reveals everything about the 20 million Private Points bounty. Therefore, Kiyotaka not only has the entire plan fail, but also learns about the 20 million Private Points bounty on his head.

---

Aims fulfilled by the strategy for Kiyotaka:
1. Kiyotaka successfully partners with a student who isn't a White Room subject who's entered the school just to expel him.
2. Kiyotaka assures some of possible class points and private points for his own class as he partnered with a student with a fairly good academic ability and he himself was pretending to have his academic abilities around that level.
3. Kiyotaka becomes aware of the bounty placed on him.
4. Kiyotaka traps Housen in a trap which he didn't even set himself and at the same time, gets an access to a variety of information which he didn't have access to before.
5. Kiyotaka successfully gets an idea of Ichika and Housen's approach towards problems, which is a necessary information for Kiyotaka for his own operations which we even see in the future.

In terms of efficiency and complexity, this counterstrategy would be top-notch, because it involves only two tactics with a very complex and efficient mechanism of fulfilling various aims.

Not only that, but this counterstrategy would also have 100% success rate (high success rate is very associated with highly complex tactics) with no limitations on its utilization, with a brilliant execution and adaptability, as Kiyotaka had to change his inferences and make counterstrategies on various phases, which were limited before.

If you are not familiar with how to scale strategies, you may like to read this amazing document on "A Guide to Strategy in SCD" written by an SCD scaler named Ace.

This was made in a highly tense situation of a life-or-death scenario and in a short time when it looked like Housen was going to stab Kiyotaka, which would be a very short time due to Housen being a superhuman himself, and also having a blinding attack speed. Kiyotaka would need to think of a lot of inferences along with creating the said tactics to basically counter both the strategies of Tsukishiro and Ichika and assure his presence in the near future in the school.

 

[MCH2]

The reason why this can be inferred by Kiyotaka only is because it was the same knife Amasawa and him shopped for

Aynokouji had Kei investigate and figure out that only he bought that knife. And the reason was Ichika suspiciously asking for him to buy that particular knife when cooking for her.

Kiyotaka, however, successfully analytically predicts that Housen was going to aim for himself and stab himself. He did this prediction upon knowing about the ownership of the knife, and by analyzing the position of the knife which could have been aiming for him as well, but he chose the option of Housen aiming for himself.

Ayanokouji already predicted that Housen’s plan is to stab himself the moment he recognized that that’s his own knife. Thus he started moving towards Housen before he even swung.

life-or-death scenario

Embellishment. Ayanokouji is stronger than Housen, and Ayanokouji knew that Housen was going to stab himself. Kouji’s life wasn’t on the line, his expulsion was.

in a short time

This volume occurred over the span of 3 weeks.

Other than that, the rest looks accurate. I sincerely thank you for your work. Though there’s more process to how Ayanokouji settled on Housen as his partner than just what’s presented.

Also just to be clear. This strategy isn’t beyond Genius. Baku for example is a Genius and he has strategies that would murder Ayanokouji’s best, let alone this one. PJ / L / Light / Hannibal / etc have great strategies as well which exist within a similar ballpark even if slightly inferior or superior. They also all hit the “predicting the future” req if that standard gets lowered so that Ayanokouji may qualify for it.

Point is the only thing that separates Ayanokouji from them is his knowledge breadth(NOT depth for some of them). They all fail the superhuman fictionalized intelligence standard.

A straight extraordinary Genius rating is completely unwarranted. Just looking at the examples in the wiki for that tier shows a bunch of reality warpers, sci fi inventors, Tony Stark and human supercomputers. Putting him there retroactively lowers the standard, and it means dozens of realistic Genius characters will now qualify for Extraordinary Genius if they can be shown to simply have multidisciplinary knowledge. Off the top of my head, Hannibal will have an easy time hitting it with this.

He should be “At least Genius”. Recognizing the fact that’s he’s a high-end Genius while not giving Extraordinary Genius like candy.

That’s all.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Aynokouji had Kei investigate and figure out that only he bought that knife. And the reason was Ichika suspiciously asking for him to buy that particular knife when cooking for her.

This is true. Thanks for adding, I didn't add that at the time while worrying about the word limit, but it was already pretty big so an addition wouldn't do anything wrong. And I did mention that he used a sensory (which was an indirect one; Kei) around that time:

he had observed the store fully when buying it

In fact, he even obtained information on the fact that the shop only sold only one model of that knife of that kind, and it was the only one which came with a sheath.

Ayanokouji already predicted that Housen’s plan is to stab himself the moment he recognized that that’s his own knife. Thus he started moving towards Housen before he even swung.

Not really. He mentioned later on that it was also due to the way he held the knife, and this basically confirmed it for him that Housen was aiming for himself.

And Housen was holding the knife like that from the start, it has been confirmed in the manga, and the author works with Shia Sasane on manga and Housen just announces "Get Ready!" and gets the plan in motion, thus arriving to the tactic of placing his own arm in front of it.

So honestly, Housen was holding the knife like that from the start, which helped Kiyotaka to set his tactic in motion, he hadn't predicted it from the start.

Confirmation by the novel:

Kiyotaka mentions that he came to a single conclusion before, and when Housen was pitching forward with the position which he used to deduce Housen's intentions (which has been also shown in the manga), that was the moment when he thought of the entire tactic and readied himself. He mentions "while at the same time feeling my thoughts becoming clearer", hinting that the inference of Housen stabbing himself was through his holding position.

The second tactic is somewhat connected with the first tactic in a sense that the first tactic's "Getting stabbed" content would itself lead to Kiyotaka blackmailing Housen with it further.

While yes, Kiyotaka may have thought of the knife being his own which he bought alongside Amasawa, but both the tactics, the one where he gets stabbed himself and the other where he blackmails Housen cannot be thought of unless he comes to know if Housen was really going to stab himself, which happened only once when Housen readied himself.

Embellishment. Ayanokouji is stronger than Housen, and Ayanokouji knew that Housen was going to stab himself. Kouji’s life wasn’t on the line, his expulsion was.

It was? The first thought which would have come to his mind would be that what was Housen hiding, and then see a shiny thing which was a knife, and then recognize that it was his own knife. He could have inferred that it was his own knife, but he still had to observe Housen's knife holding position, which would have ultimately helped him to realize what to do ahead, otherwise he would have never formulated both the tactics.

Secondly, I don't really think that it had been a situation full of pressure for Kiyotaka even if it were to be a life-or-death scenario, because Kiyotaka doesn't even feel pressure, so arguing this may just be futile than being a conclusive thing.

This volume occurred over the span of 3 weeks.

What are you talking about? I am talking about the tactic formulation only, which would have taken moments (though the inferences of course would have taken much higher time), he formulated both the tactics by the time Housen was holding the knife that way. The second tactic would have been different if Housen hadn't held the knife that way, Kiyotaka said that he would have still paired with Housen, only just that

Other than that, the rest looks accurate. I sincerely thank you for your work. Though there’s more process to how Ayanokouji settled on Housen as his partner than just what’s presented.

I read the volume again and turns out it is pretty related to future stuff which I don't really think is a thing worth caring but is basically something which suits Kiyotaka's mental warfare style.

Also just to be clear. This strategy isn’t beyond Genius. Baku for example is a Genius and he has strategies that would murder Ayanokouji’s best, let alone this one. PJ / L / Light / Hannibal / etc have great strategies as well which exist within a similar ballpark even if slightly inferior or superior. They also all hit the “predicting the future” req if that standard gets lowered so that Ayanokouji may qualify for it.

We wanted to get Baku to E.G. before, in fact it was even tried and Zetsu said that he would work on that once he's collected most Baku's feats. About PJ and Hannibal, I don't really think it would be good to regard their prediction as mediocre in respect, but Light and L, maybe, considering how Light canonically fell for just a double-layered trap of Near's notebook deception, and L was canonically never able to execute anything beyond Self-Revelation, which is just a single tactic which has been overrated as hell in the community. And again, you probably know how it is. Aizen is an E.G. on VSBW, but his strategy in SCD is recognized to be so low to the point of him being scaled below even the mid tiers of SCD (which includes Yuuichi, Light, Takuya, Johan and others; I will not mention Kiyotaka here for obvious reasons, because I am literally debating to have him that VSBW rating lol).

Though yes, I would request to not continue this as a debate.

Point is the only thing that separates Ayanokouji from them is his knowledge breadth(NOT depth for some of them). They all fail the superhuman fictionalized intelligence standard.

And his stupidly high learning ability, both what you mentioned, and this happens to fill in the knowledge criteria much better than for others.

A straight extraordinary Genius rating is completely unwarranted. Just looking at the examples in the wiki for that tier shows a bunch of reality warpers, sci fi inventors, Tony Stark and human supercomputers. Putting him there retroactively lowers the standard, and it means dozens of realistic Genius characters will now qualify for Extraordinary Genius if they can be shown to simply have multidisciplinary knowledge. Off the top of my head, Hannibal will have an easy time hitting it with this.

He should be “At least Genius”. Recognizing the fact that’s he’s a high-end Genius while not giving Extraordinary Genius like candy.

I think a low-end rating for the same tier can be warranted but I think Kiyotaka would eventually end up getting the other criteria as well.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Y'all are scaring the mods away atp.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Unless you can prove that it was a mathematical based prediction that doesn't mean much for EG.

Alright. Though it would still need to be reliant on pure intelligence and not other factors.

Do you think the length and controversial nature of this thread warrants it being a staff only? The OP is against an EG rating altogether, and no consensus among the mods has been reached after 15 pages. Ayanokoji seems to be knowledgeable in multiple fields, but him far surpassing human upper limit in intelligence alone, is still contested. Any attempt at getting the mods up to date ends up restarting the cycle of arguments that go nowhere from both sides. I have no idea what qualifies as a staff only thread though. Which is why I am asking.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Do you think the length and controversial nature of this thread warrants it being a staff only? The OP is against an EG rating altogether, and no consensus among the mods has been reached after 15 pages. Any attempt at getting the mods up to date ends up restarting the cycle of arguments that go nowhere from both sides. I have no idea what qualifies as a staff only thread though. Which is why I am asking.

If you believe a staff thread would be more conductive since the thread is controversial, sure.

But only one person can comment and they'll be limited. So it won't be very long and once it's finished you won't be able to do much.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

i think we should just call on more staff and put an end to this thread..

 

[HelloThere1089]

If you believe a staff thread would be more conductive since the thread is controversial, sure.

But only one person can comment and they'll be limited. So it won't be very long and once it's finished you won't be able to do much.

I think OP, @MCH2 @RoggerReggor @TheHuntsman1001 are the only ones who have any horse in this race. If four people can be allowed then that'd be great. I don't know who else other than the OP is actively engaging here still, and is on OP's side. Most votes are for Genius, but they have long stopped responding.

Also as Satella suggested above. If that works then I'm okay with that.

 

[Qawsedf234]

are the only ones who have any horse in this race. If four people can be allowed then that'd be great.

They'd get three comments each, other than the OP. Which is what I meant.

 

[HelloThere1089]

They'd get three comments each, other than the OP. Which is what I meant.

That would control the length for sure. Otherwise more staff would just invite more replies in hopes of convincing them.

 

[First_Witch]

You people really managed to hit 10 pages for this topic huh. This is clearly a controversal topic (For whatever reasons), so I think its prudent to make this staff only and get 1-2 core supporters at most to debate this out without 10 people shouting in the background.

It has been 5 additional pages since this. This should had been made staff only 4 pages ago.

 

[HelloThere1089]

I have had 2 staff say that genius works better. The two of them are still seemingly thinking about it, but there has yet to be any staff support for E.G.

Also, I think it'd just be plain stupid to ignore like 30 votes of the people (blue names), especially on a thread like this one....

Would you mind if this is made staff only?

 

[MCH2]

Fundamentally the four of us and OP will just rerun on old ground. My opinion on the matter is that the Staff should simply look at the proposed intelligence section and make a judgement themselves. It’s extremely thorough and I ran it by huntsman himself. That would be my proposal. There’s no need to continue this. Given that this is much simpler than reading 15 pages, we can get more than 2 potentially to vote.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/downgrading-ayanokoujis-intelligence.171740/post-6725941

 

[HelloThere1089]

^I agree. Anything more seems to only bring confusion.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I have already said it before but i will repeat it if needed:
If there is a discussion on combat skill iq specifically at any point, then i did like to be invited as well

 

[wwereymy235]

This reminds me of old MGK threads lol

 

[RoggerReggor]

If this helps the mods reach a decision, this is the draft for the revision of the intelligence section that I've made (will be discussed further in another thread alongside other changes once we have a verdict here). You can look at this and decide whether this warrants Genius, Extraordinary Genius or a mix of both.

How about this?

I think I am now in the proposal of Kiyotaka getting a unique intelligence section like Aizen has, which would encompass his different intelligences and detail and not make it feel like being rushed. I am hoping for the sections be made for:
1. General Intelligence
2. Emotional Intelligence - Include his EQ (+Emotional Facilitation and Realization)
3. Strategic Intelligence - Both planning and strategy
4. Social Influencing - Include all manipulation and VSBW oriented Social Influencing criteria feats proposed by Zetsu
5. Academic Intelligence
6. Memory (only include the intellectual part of it, which is retention, deletion, manipulation and not just memorization speed which is technically Photographic Memory)
Open to more suggestions.

This way, we can have prevention of people basically trying to downgrade or upgrade him every now and then due to half-information (for e.g., people could easily get misconception of his perfect memory being his only ability upon the current, and given how popular he is on the wiki (has been on the trending section for Tier 9 characters for a huge amount of time), I think this will help people from both the VSBW scaling orientation, SCD-oriented scaling or even those who don't know anything about him get an idea about his feats.

 

[MCH2]

How about this?

I would welcome such a discussion in the thread where we talk about rewriting his intelligence section and we discuss the draft I made. For now, we need to get the matter of his Intelligence rating done with already.

For that, I reiterate my proposal:
https://vsbattles.com/threads/downgrading-ayanokoujis-intelligence.171740/post-6729125

 

[RoggerReggor]

I would welcome such a discussion in the thread where we talk about rewriting his intelligence section and we discuss the draft I made. For now, we need to get the matter of his Intelligence rating done with already.

Ok. I appreciate this thought a lot.

So, for now, we are already at a point where an "At least Genius" rating is thought to be an actually a good rating. About the strategy, Huntsman told me that he would be posting his own analysis of the said strategy discussed above (if he wants, of course), if that criterion is satisfied, then probably (or I should say "I hope") we might settle on a low-tier E.G. (this would still be a downgrade as he was still low-mid tier before). I think the other feats regarding his processing speed and the chess feats can be dealt with separately in an upgrade (possible) thread.

 

[First_Witch]

I have already said it before but i will repeat it if needed:
If there is a discussion on combat skill iq specifically at any point, then i did like to be invited as well

This exists since nearly a year.