Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

[AyeZ2]

How is this nearing 600 messages

 

[Phoenks]

Only staff votes impact a CRT

I have had 2 staff say that genius works better. The two of them are still seemingly thinking about it, but there has yet to be any staff support for E.G.

Also, I think it'd just be plain stupid to ignore like 30 votes of the people (blue names), especially on a thread like this one....

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

agree with removing EG and agree with genius fra

 

[RoggerReggor]

Btw the memory thing was never debunked. All you guys did was prove that Ayanokouji's memory ability is even more overpowered because he can actually subjectively choose what to remember and what not to remember.

Not to mention, you again are under the presumption that my point was to completely discard feats that used his memory. This is not the case, I only suggested that feats of learning things in short times/at a young age, would be significantly less impressive as a result of his overpowered memory ability. His knowledge and capacity to use said knowledge is not affected by this factor either.

Regardless, the debate has evolved far beyond the memory stuff, and in fact, I have repeated multiple times that it does not change the downgrade even if you were to discard those arguments.

You cannot learn things by just memorizing. Memorization chiefly involves you trying to memorize stuff, but never does it help with learning, that's quite literally the entire point of you being never able to learn academic concepts with rote learning but need to apply your own intelligence to figure concepts out. If White Room exams were only memorization, then Kiyotaka would be gaining 1st rank every single time because he would have just memorized stuff, which is completely wrong because Kiyotaka is an adaptive genius, a person who believes in figuring things out than naturally being good at them.

This is called as an adaptive genius (and it is an actual concept) and differs largely from a natural genius.

Memorization to its utmost degree doesn't help with anything, in fact, Suzukake's theory, which you have been using, itself states that Kiyotaka would face effects of it if he was really using memorization to learn things, which he canonically never did, so no, your entire notion is wrong.

Memorization only helps with taking in information, but better information analysis would severely rise above that point, not to mention you have many more abilities like Bodily Kinesthetic, Fluid Reasoning/Matrix Reasoning which help much more with learning than just pure memorization.

Also, if Kiyotaka has no natural learning ability, then he would have never passed Shiro (a confirmed natural genius who got good at things from the first tries itself) in any way, who canonically had enough potential to last 10 more years in the White Room, so it doesn't even come down to memorization, but it is now just your own theory, even Suzukake used the word "maybe" while addressing it and its non-canon anyways, Kiyotaka himself criticizes who do it.

 

[RoggerReggor]

It's fiction but you still have to at least try and be logical.

IF humans can make this cirriculum, then it naturally can't be beyond the knowledge of humans. That doesn't make any sense.

And if you pair this with the context that this is for gifted students (adolescents) trying to learn it in a limited amount of time, it starts to make a lot more sense if this is simply just an excruciatingly difficult curriculum for that age group.

The primary reason why his knowledge surpasses the human limits is because he has perfect memory which allows him to not forget anything. For example, I am currently trying to get my stuff figured out in medicine, but most of my seniors have confirmed that almost 60% of the stuff you are taught is something which you may not even recall 3 years later. That's the difference, a normal person forgets and that's why their knowledge deteriorates. You may learn as much as Kiyotaka, but you will eventually start to forget it.

 

[Fezzih_007]

It's because of how Kei interjects into the conversation. She begins by insinuating that Horikita knows who the person constantly voting Yes each round is and she is concealing that fact. In simple terms, Kei isn't smart enough to deduce that, and

So if it was just a signal, then Kei in that instant needed to be able to assess the situation and determine that Horikita actually knew who the traitor was. (which I doubt anyone here who knows the series would believe she could do)

I mean, I actually think she probally could do It trought. It don't seem so hard considering the situation, and Kei show some level of sharpeness before, sometimes, little times.
But

So that means Ayanokouji had to give this information to Kei when he told her to respond to the signal.

Yeah, I can probally see what you saying. Ayanokoji could have instructed for Kei If the last question. Involved expulsion.

He knew that there would be a question about expulsion and someone (Kushida) would be voting in favor, he knew that Horikita would know which student is anonymously doing this and he needed to tell Kei this so she would say as much during her interjection.

But I still think Ayano just trought of the possibilty of that being the case, and din't actually accuretely predict that would happen, since there's nothing for him to predict.

 

[RoggerReggor]

since there's nothing for him to predict.

That's called Hot Reading, when you have enough information of your opponent to be habituated with how they perform in situations, and you can predict their actions and draw out the possibilities of what they will do and what they will not upon what they have done in the past.

 

[MCH2]

The primary reason why his knowledge surpasses the human limits is because he has perfect memory which allows him to not forget anything. For example, I am currently trying to get my stuff figured out in medicine, but most of my seniors have confirmed that almost 60% of the stuff you are taught is something which you may not even recall 3 years later. That's the difference, a normal person forgets and that's why their knowledge deteriorates. You may learn as much as Kiyotaka, but you will eventually start to forget it.

What’s even the point of arguing about his memory, when not only is it the same regurgitated arguments we had before but it’s also irrelevant to where the current discussion is at? Ayanokouji easily meets the requirements for both knowledge and vastly surpassing humans. It’s the other criteria where he doesn’t even come close. If you can’t show that he meets the other criteria (which are quite high) with things that haven’t already been debunked or presented, then we’re all wasting time here arguing and not advancing the discussion one millimeter. The goal should be to work towards a consensus so we may get on with fixing his intelligence section, not just endlessly argue like it’s debate club……

The EG side has failed to convince a single person that wasn’t already supporting. Yet still never conceded any ground nor accepted or suggested any compromise. You’re just going after the weakest arguments you spot and endlessly pushing back.

OP’s arguments aren’t even the strongest against EG because he was arguing against a horribly inaccurate profile. I would say the strongest argument against EG is simply reading his new intelligence section, it speaks for itself.

This is where we’re at. Please, if you’re not breaking new ground in this discussion, just wait for staff to make their judgement.

Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

* But Nobody Came What do I do... Loved that UT reference haha

vsbattles.com

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I mean, I actually think she probally could do It trought. It don't seem so hard considering the situation, and Kei show some level of sharpeness before, sometimes, little times.

I mean this is a pretty big stretch though. Kei has shown some sharpness and is more clever than she lets on, but going from that to assuming she could make this kind of deduction almost instantly and then implement it into Koji giving her a signal to act is a bit much.

Also coming to a conclusion like that isn't a simple thing, it only seems easy in hindsight knowing what Kushida was doing. All the information they had was that 2 people and and now 1 (Kouenji stopped) were voting yes to expel each time. Horikita is trying to convince the class to all vote no. From that to determine that Horikita knows who the traitor is and is hiding that fact is not easy.

 

[Fezzih_007]

That's called Hot Reading, when you have enough information of your opponent to be habituated with how they perform in situations, and you can predict their actions and draw out the possibilities of what they will do and what they will not upon what they have done in the past.

Wow, that really don't change my opinion.

 

[Fezzih_007]

but going from that to assuming she could make this kind of deduction almost instantly

I mean, it don't need to be instantly, for the time Ayano stop coughing It could take enough time for her to figure out something. Like, her herself said It was a hunch.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I mean, it don't need to be instantly, for the time Ayano stop coughing It could take enough time for her to figure out something. Like, her herself said It was a hunch.

Even if the timeframe is a few seconds that doesn't change much. Also Koji mentions in the second scan that Horikita would realize that this isn't just Kei "making a thoughtful remark" and would realize due to his connection with Kei that this was his doing. So this is what Ayanokouji instructed her to say, not something she just came up with.

 

[RoggerReggor]

What’s even the point of arguing about his memory, when not only is it the same regurgitated arguments we had before but it’s also irrelevant to where the current discussion is at? Ayanokouji easily meets the requirements for both knowledge and vastly surpassing humans. It’s the other criteria where he doesn’t even come close. If you can’t show that he meets the other criteria (which are quite high) with things that haven’t already been debunked or presented, then we’re all wasting time here arguing and not advancing the discussion one millimeter. The goal should be to work towards a consensus so we may get on with fixing his intelligence section, not just endlessly argue like it’s debate club……

The EG side has failed to convince a single person that wasn’t already supporting. Yet still never conceded any ground nor accepted or suggested any compromise. You’re just going after the weakest arguments you spot and endlessly pushing back.

OP’s arguments aren’t even the strongest against EG because he was arguing against a horribly inaccurate profile. I would say the strongest argument against EG is simply reading his new intelligence section, it speaks for itself.

Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

* But Nobody Came What do I do... Loved that UT reference haha

vsbattles.com

This is where we’re at. Please, if you’re not breaking new ground in this discussion, just wait for staff to make their judgement.

You are missing the point. I am not arguing about memory, and rather the fact of why he has that much of knowledge.

With that, I will post an analysis on the Y1V1 strategy executed under a pressure situation and was thought of in a moments' worth of time. However, I am currently suffering from bouts of fever combined with extreme muscle pain, so I will return in a matter of few hours and post it.

 

[Black-san112]

didnt you guys say you will stop arguing and wait for staff vote so how come you are all just still at it

 

[Fezzih_007]

Even if the timeframe is a few seconds that doesn't change much

Kinda, for me is more beliable she could have trought about what Ayano as insinuating.

Also Koji mentions in the second scan that Horikita would realize that this isn't just Kei "making a thoughtful remark" and would realize due to his connection with Kei that this was his doing. So this is what Ayanokouji instructed her to say, not something she just came up with.

Din't you read that I agree with the fact he could have instructed her?

Yeah, I can probally see what you saying. Ayanokoji could have instructed for Kei If the last question

I not disagreing with that premisse.

 

[AyeZ2]

didnt you guys say you will stop arguing and wait for staff vote so how come you are all just still at it

COTE is clearly a very touchy subject on this site lol

 

[Fezzih_007]

didnt you guys say you will stop arguing and wait for staff vote so how come you are all just still at it

Is Fun.

 

[Tomfer]

At this point, I wouldn't blame the mods if they just said "Agree FRA" and then leave.