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Loved that UT reference haha
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Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence
- Thread starter Phoenks
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I gotchu. Ant, if you get staff in this thread, I’ll upgrade to the new tier.
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Okay, so I don't mind helping, but ya'll need to meet me halfway because I am NOT reading 13 pages. 
Can I please get a summary of the relevant arguments/counterarguments? Just the basic rundown of what I need to know to properly evaluate this.
Can I please get a summary of the relevant arguments/counterarguments? Just the basic rundown of what I need to know to properly evaluate this.
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The relevant arguments and counter arguments are gigantic by themselves tbh.Okay, so I don't mind helping, but ya'll need to meet me halfway because I am NOT reading 13 pages.
Can I please get a summary of the relevant arguments/counterarguments? Just the basic rundown of what I need to know to properly evaluate this.
Anyway, I recommend reading over this. It is basically a revised intelligence section for Koji that summarizes his best feats and also counters a few of the claims made in this thread.
Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence
If any criticizer read the entire thread, or even his profile, and that too, WELL-READ, then you would realize that he verbatim has a statement where his knowledge is characterized to be above what a human can obtain in their entire life, just at the age of 16, so no, this wouldn't even be an...
At the moment, vast majority of people that in agreement that this is Genius intelligence, albeit, likely quite high into that category.
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After going through the OP, as well as that post you linked with his updated Intelligence section, I think Genius should work.
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I think you should consider the one I made afterwards, as it's more complete and I ran it by some supporters.
(It’s the same, minus some additions and rewording two of the feat sentences)
Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence
Bro, we already 11 Pages. We really should stop discussing, to not clog the thread. true tbh, we should make a separate combat iq thread. When will the mods come?
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HelloThere1089
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Yeah. Also the main supporters are @RoggerReggor @TheHuntsman1001. Their rebuttals are the only ones worth checking out (if you have time). Though the general consensus is still Genius.
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could you point me to the "general area" where those posts were made?
HelloThere1089
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Bet, queen.
These are their initial messages I think. These have been replied to and the discussion has been going in circles.
IIRC the points of contentions are:
1. Validity of the chess feat. (Supporters say it's outperforming a supercomputer. But people have pointed out that it has never been stated to be a supercomputer and Ayanokoji has never been shown to "consistently" outperform it. Only once.)
2. Wealth of knowledge. (Supporters say he's far beyond genius. But others have said he is stated to be smarter than real life professors in multiple fields and that's it. His quantity of knowledge is wide, but nothing a polymath can't do.)
Again these are not my arguments or rebuttals. So I apologize if I accidentally misrepresent them.
Edit: Another point was this:
I argued that this only confirms Ayanokoji has far exceeded the amount learned in a lifetime by an average human (so not the upper limit of humanity). But supporters have stated I am nitpicking.
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HelloThere1089 mentioned the main posts @RoggerReggor and I made but here were the other ones so you don't have to go searching for them in this mess of a thread.
Short explanation of Ayanokouji's complex strategic thinking:
Reggor disproving the entire basis of OPs claim that Ayanokouji's memory should downgrade his intelligence multiple times in the thread.
His Intelligence compared to the VSBW definition of EGThanks, Huntsman, for carrying the debate. I am currently down with illness (got diagnosed just an hour later) but I think I will express thoughts on some things. And of course, I will try to write the reply I talked about later on for sure.
Ok, so for this. Sidis according to the raw IQ system would be very high, personally and basically the epitome of human intelligence through raw IQ systems if we characterize him by his achievements.
But if Sidis was to be scaled in Weschler's scale, then he might not even be remotely close to his suggested raw IQ. For example, all he has is FRI feats, he lacks VSI and CPIand would be pretty much an Akiyama victim in that. The same was with Terence Tao as well.
And in my honest opinion, I wouldn't rank Sidis beyond level 4. Ichika (a gen 5 and level 4 subject) narratively learnt university level stuff at the age of 11 as well. Also, she has the feat of learning archery in about a day, and also, Sidis may have a Harvard achievement at a young age, but that would be related with a handful of courses. Ichika had to be perfect with the same or a better efficiency at almost everything including physical, academic and intellectual quests and basically learn even those courses which she may have never wanted to learn.
Ok, so talking about this. So, the entire "Kiyotaka's Learning Ability is due to Memory" argument comes from this single statement, or should I better refer to it as a theory:
Now, to provide the context. This statement/theory is given by Suzukake, the Generation 4 head instructor. Now, the thing about this is that Suzukake has already made a very bad statement by underrating Kiyotaka's emotional intelligence and saying that he didn't know what most people did, but as everyone who read the novel probably knows, Kiyotaka never really showed that he cared, and he was always attentive to others and used to make his own deductions upon people's emotions and even analyzed emotions in V0 monologues.
Funnily, Kiyotaka verbatim debunks this entire theory all by himself:
Here, in this statement by Kiyotaka himself. He implies that focusing on memorization without actually applying the basics wasn't really the thing to learn. He draws a fine line between him and other natural geniuses like Yuki and Shiro who got results all by their "sense", but he himself mentions that it was still possible to surpass them, and we know he does surpass them later on.
So again, first of all, Kiyotaka himself mentions that it isn't just memorization, but actually focusing on learning and applying the things learnt to yourself.
Now, going with the memory, so bidding on the fact that Photographic Memory can actually help you learn is not the best of the arguments. Firstly, Photographic Memory is an ability to learn things by just taking a glance at them, but let's be real, if a Photographic Memory user memorizes something in a glance, then it can be memorized by a normal human as well, just not with the same speed as the former, meaning that memorizing should ultimately be the key to learning, which is just false, because even if you were to memorize the basics, you may fail to apply them, which is the thing.
Also, Suzukake mentioned that Kiyotaka would face some consequences if he was really doing his learning via memorization, he would face negative effects of it, which he basically never does reportedly, and his learning is unwavered.
HelloThere1089
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Saved me a lot of work. Thanks.
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No problem.
@RoggerReggor lmk if I missed anything from your points. The one about Koji's memory being proven to not downscale his intelligence was what I thought was most important since it directly disproves the OP but if you remember another post which got lost in this thread you should link it.
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Btw the memory thing was never debunked. All you guys did was prove that Ayanokouji's memory ability is even more overpowered because he can actually subjectively choose what to remember and what not to remember.
Not to mention, you again are under the presumption that my point was to completely discard feats that used his memory. This is not the case, I only suggested that feats of learning things in short times/at a young age, would be significantly less impressive as a result of his overpowered memory ability. His knowledge and capacity to use said knowledge is not affected by this factor either.
Regardless, the debate has evolved far beyond the memory stuff, and in fact, I have repeated multiple times that it does not change the downgrade even if you were to discard those arguments.
Not to mention, you again are under the presumption that my point was to completely discard feats that used his memory. This is not the case, I only suggested that feats of learning things in short times/at a young age, would be significantly less impressive as a result of his overpowered memory ability. His knowledge and capacity to use said knowledge is not affected by this factor either.
Regardless, the debate has evolved far beyond the memory stuff, and in fact, I have repeated multiple times that it does not change the downgrade even if you were to discard those arguments.
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No your memory argument was entirely debunked. In the OP post you claimed that his vast knowledge, his intelligence feats in the WR, and him surpassing the other generations were due to his Perfect Memory "a supernatural ability" in your words. You used this as your reasoning for why it doesn't qualify for EG.
Reggor showed how your reasoning on that is incorrect and his memory doesn't merit downgrading his intelligence, because Ayanokouji still has to learn things and why his memory is tied to intelligence. You are trying to downscale intelligence on the basis that "it is easier to be smart with a perfect memory" which is entirely irrelevant since his memory doesn't boost his intelligence. He still learned everything.
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I will provide my own post. Alongside a timeline
this post functionally changed (or derailed, depending on perspective) the debate from debating around the points on the profile to debating whether or not they were valid to begin with. Others started doing that before, but this post essentially cut off the original OP vs EG supporter debate from what it spiraled into.
vsbattles.com
Afterwards, it became clear that the Intelligence section (and later on the feats section). badly needed revisions, I have already started a draft (which was linked above) and there will be a new thread discussing it.
to give my own timeline of the thread:
1. Debating the profile.
2. Debating the validity of the profile itself and that it needs revisions.
3. Debating on the definition of EG in this wiki and debating on how it was applied. Everyone was going about establishing it a different way and nothing was conceded without contest.
4. (Tangent) Some were debating battle IQ but splitting Battle IQ from intelligence wasn't the point of the thread.
5. (Tangent) I produced a draft for a new Intelligence section which I ran by the supporters. I produced a draft for a new Feats section as well. this will be continued in a new thread after the judgement here.
this post functionally changed (or derailed, depending on perspective) the debate from debating around the points on the profile to debating whether or not they were valid to begin with. Others started doing that before, but this post essentially cut off the original OP vs EG supporter debate from what it spiraled into.
Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence
Horikita helped Ayanokouji with the camera bluff in the Sudo trial, LN it was Ichinose I def remember it being Horikita and her realizing in the end that Ayanokoji led her to that action
Afterwards, it became clear that the Intelligence section (and later on the feats section). badly needed revisions, I have already started a draft (which was linked above) and there will be a new thread discussing it.
to give my own timeline of the thread:
1. Debating the profile.
2. Debating the validity of the profile itself and that it needs revisions.
3. Debating on the definition of EG in this wiki and debating on how it was applied. Everyone was going about establishing it a different way and nothing was conceded without contest.
4. (Tangent) Some were debating battle IQ but splitting Battle IQ from intelligence wasn't the point of the thread.
5. (Tangent) I produced a draft for a new Intelligence section which I ran by the supporters. I produced a draft for a new Feats section as well. this will be continued in a new thread after the judgement here.
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This post doesn't even make sense to me.
Memory is the fundamental basis of "learning" something, in the first place. Without memory, you have no recollection or knowledge of anything. Memory in the real world requires people to make multiple repetitions over the same subjects in order to grasp the material. Meanwhile, someone who has perfect memory never forgets the information they are given to "learn" something—they grasp the subject to the extent they are told of it, the very first time. Kouji can even just directly choose what he remembers. Someone like that very clearly has an unreal and supernatural advantage when it comes to learning. It's really not that difficult to understand the point I am making, here.
Moreover, you go on to say that "memory doesn't boost his intelligence." The series itself disagrees with you, so now what?
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Yes but you are improperly conflating two things together. You are saying that because Ayanokouji's memory is superior his intelligence is less impressive because it took less effort to obtain it. This is incredibly flimsy logic and easily disproven. Pro athletes can achieve success at the highest levels due to factors like good genetics (height size etc.) and often a lot of natural talent. Does that also mean their skills are less impressive overall? Of course not. You are literally making a case for why his intelligence should be HIGHER not lower. If it was easy for him to master this much knowledge his memory makes the case for his higher intelligence tier.
His memory is also NOT supernatural since there is no evidence of the supernatural in verse. Even if it were that doesn't change the fact that it only helps him retain information which he still has to learn and that means he still has the aggregate of all that knowledge. The memory arguments for downgrade are ridiculous.
Please actually read the scans you try to imply help your points, this helps my point more than yours. The instructors talk about how he has an extra 3 years of memories stored in his memory due to a lack of infantile amnesia. It just means he remembers more knowledge than other students. You will probably try to point out the line "the secret of his overwhelming learning ability is also related to this" but remember that Reggor already disproved the connection between Ayanokouji's memory and his learning ability.
So the claim that his memory is the basis for his learning ability is false, and it just gives him the ability to store any information he gets and then he has control over what information he recalls at a given time, which I'll point out you agreed with.Ok, so talking about this. So, the entire "Kiyotaka's Learning Ability is due to Memory" argument comes from this single statement, or should I better refer to it as a theory:
Now, to provide the context. This statement/theory is given by Suzukake, the Generation 4 head instructor. Now, the thing about this is that Suzukake has already made a very bad statement by underrating Kiyotaka's emotional intelligence and saying that he didn't know what most people did, but as everyone who read the novel probably knows, Kiyotaka never really showed that he cared, and he was always attentive to others and used to make his own deductions upon people's emotions and even analyzed emotions in V0 monologues.
Funnily, Kiyotaka verbatim debunks this entire theory all by himself:
Here, in this statement by Kiyotaka himself. He implies that focusing on memorization without actually applying the basics wasn't really the thing to learn. He draws a fine line between him and other natural geniuses like Yuki and Shiro who got results all by their "sense", but he himself mentions that it was still possible to surpass them, and we know he does surpass them later on.
So again, first of all, Kiyotaka himself mentions that it isn't just memorization, but actually focusing on learning and applying the things learnt to yourself.
Now, going with the memory, so bidding on the fact that Photographic Memory can actually help you learn is not the best of the arguments. Firstly, Photographic Memory is an ability to learn things by just taking a glance at them, but let's be real, if a Photographic Memory user memorizes something in a glance, then it can be memorized by a normal human as well, just not with the same speed as the former, meaning that memorizing should ultimately be the key to learning, which is just false, because even if you were to memorize the basics, you may fail to apply them, which is the thing.
Also, Suzukake mentioned that Kiyotaka would face some consequences if he was really doing his learning via memorization, he would face negative effects of it, which he basically never does reportedly, and his learning is unwavered.
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1. It isn't easily disproven consider it's just objectively correct that memory aids in learning. Trying to go against this point substantially decreases your credibility.
2. It is supernatural by virtue of that not being a capability that exists in the real world. Even if the verse doesn't treat it as such.
You saying this literally just proves my point, thank you. Thanks to you saying this directly I am now even more certain that his memory is a significant factor in how he is perceived in COTE.
Yes, which significantly aids in learning ability. The series itself says this. You yourself said this.
Goodness, stop going in circles with me. This is getting ridiculous.
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I think that they would require a thread of their own tbh....
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Like I said, even if we treat his memory as supernatural it doesn't merit downgrading his intelligence on the basis of "he had an easier path to get smarter"
Idk what you are going on about with this. The scans and Reggor's points literally disprove this for the millionth time. In this scan the instructors are talking about his memory but as already proven, that isn't the basis of his intelligence of learning ability. It just means he doesn't forget things.
I didn't say this, I disagreed with this and so does the series. By saying I agreed with this you somehow took the direct opposite of what I said.
The series disproving the point here with what Reggor proved which you are again ignoring.
So you are not only trying to claim I agreed with you when I clearly said the opposite, but also when I pointed out how the series disproves your point you ignored that and claimed it supported you instead when that is clearly wrong.Ok, so talking about this. So, the entire "Kiyotaka's Learning Ability is due to Memory" argument comes from this single statement, or should I better refer to it as a theory:
Now, to provide the context. This statement/theory is given by Suzukake, the Generation 4 head instructor. Now, the thing about this is that Suzukake has already made a very bad statement by underrating Kiyotaka's emotional intelligence and saying that he didn't know what most people did, but as everyone who read the novel probably knows, Kiyotaka never really showed that he cared, and he was always attentive to others and used to make his own deductions upon people's emotions and even analyzed emotions in V0 monologues.
Funnily, Kiyotaka verbatim debunks this entire theory all by himself:
Here, in this statement by Kiyotaka himself. He implies that focusing on memorization without actually applying the basics wasn't really the thing to learn. He draws a fine line between him and other natural geniuses like Yuki and Shiro who got results all by their "sense", but he himself mentions that it was still possible to surpass them, and we know he does surpass them later on.
So again, first of all, Kiyotaka himself mentions that it isn't just memorization, but actually focusing on learning and applying the things learnt to yourself.
Now, going with the memory, so bidding on the fact that Photographic Memory can actually help you learn is not the best of the arguments. Firstly, Photographic Memory is an ability to learn things by just taking a glance at them, but let's be real, if a Photographic Memory user memorizes something in a glance, then it can be memorized by a normal human as well, just not with the same speed as the former, meaning that memorizing should ultimately be the key to learning, which is just false, because even if you were to memorize the basics, you may fail to apply them, which is the thing.
Also, Suzukake mentioned that Kiyotaka would face some consequences if he was really doing his learning via memorization, he would face negative effects of it, which he basically never does reportedly, and his learning is unwavered.
We are only going in circles because you aren't actually arguing against the evidence for Ayanokouji's intelligence. You are just not accepting that you were wrong with your interpretation of his memory, and using that to claim his EG feats are less impressive.
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Ayanokouji can just like... be the highest-end genius in the verse??? Nothing needs to change if those folks have Intelligence sections that are accurate.
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Horikita’s definitely isn’t accurate.
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@Phoenks @TheHuntsman1001 what would you say to “At least Genius, Possibly Extraordinary Genius”. If he’s either a high-end Genius (Intellect and feats) or low-end Extraordinary Genius (Knowledge). Wouldn’t it just be the natural thing to do?
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I disagree with E.G being on the page at all. I'm unwilling to agree with that. I don't think Huntsman's points hold any merit, like, objectively.
Anyway I don't know what others think but I already have 2 staffs saying Genius. Albeit Qaswed hasn't stopped by in a while.
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Honestly, I haven't seen valid criticism in this thread to downgrade Ayanokouji below EG at all. I disagree with him being below EG at all.
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He edited his message saying it was made before rebuttals since he said that before counter arguments were posted, and I don't think he made any posts here since.
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Also UchihaSlayer96 said they would check out the counterargument posts and asked which ones were arguing against the OP after saying that, so you don't really have 2 staff votes
HelloThere1089
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Slayer said he needs time to think (his words not mine). So y'all have no choice but to wait for now. Unless another staff gives their vote. Honestly this should have become a staff only by now. Also no point in increasing the page count since every new mod will have to scroll back.
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Did I just hear "Start another war"?
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Would you agree to "At least Genius" then?
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What's the current proposal I guess
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Just read from the top of this page (13) down.
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There is still disagreement on that. Phoenks still disagrees with any form of EG for Ayanokouji as asserted in the OP while myself and @RoggerReggor are the main supporters for him keeping his EG and I disagree with any removal of it from his profile. Here were some of the key posts made in the thread since you last checked in with it linked in these posts earlier on page 13 of this thread.
Contains mine and Reggor's initial posts
Here were some of the other important posts disagreeing with the OP linked here.
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Reading from the top of the page down I really only see the following part being hit
In that he has expert knowledge in multiple fields and exceeds a IRL person's shown intelligence. The main issue is that he's only a EG for those reasons and other than complex strategies I'm not seeing supported.. Nothing is futuristic technology, outperforming a supercomputer or doing math based precog.
He's at least Genius, and I think like baseline EG can be argued. But he'd be at the bottom of that level.
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So you'd agree with this @Qawsedf234
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Complex strategies he has many. I can attest to that, you can see X strategy / etc on the profile in the current feats section. The problem is that those have inaccuracies in them. so, I can post the updated X strategy summary I wrote
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Tbh even that part is very shaky and debatable. The only reference we are given for him surpassing real-life peak levels of knowledge is the other students. Also, I don't even know how humans could make a curriculum that surpasses peak human's knowledge... doesn't even really make sense to me.
So all in all genius is just way more solid.
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I'd note that Ayanokouji is the lowest-end EG on the site in his intelligence section if we did give him that
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