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Loved that UT reference haha* But Nobody Came
What do I do...
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Loved that UT reference haha* But Nobody Came
What do I do...
I gotchu. Ant, if you get staff in this thread, I’ll upgrade to the new tier.* But Nobody Came
What do I do...
The relevant arguments and counter arguments are gigantic by themselves tbh.Okay, so I don't mind helping, but ya'll need to meet me halfway because I am NOT reading 13 pages.
Can I please get a summary of the relevant arguments/counterarguments? Just the basic rundown of what I need to know to properly evaluate this.
I think you should consider the one I made afterwards, as it's more complete and I ran it by some supporters.After going through the OP, as well as that post you linked with his updated Intelligence section, I think Genius should work.
could you point me to the "general area" where those posts were made?Yeah. Also the main supporters are @RoggerReggor @TheHuntsman1001. Their rebuttals are the only ones worth checking out (if you have time). Though the general consensus is still Genius.
Bet, queen.could you point me to the "general area" where those posts were made?Or even better, link the posts themselves?
So OP gave a number of reasons why Ayanokouji should be downgraded to Genius or Gifted and based on rereading his profile it actually makes some sense. However that isn't because Ayanokouji deserves to be downgraded, rather because the correct justifications for his EG rating weren't coming across. As previously noted, OP didn't address any of the points from the CRT which made him EG in the first place and only what was on the profile, so I will lay out line by line with the VSBW definition of EG which OP also quoted any why Ayanokouji meets each of the criteria.
Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science – Ayanokouji studied a vast number of topics while in the White Room. The curriculum was constantly expanding and by age 5 he was already learning topics such as Mathematics, languages, natural and physical sciences, economics, and political science. We also know the topics of the White Room covered everything taught at ANHS while Ayanokouji was still a child. As such, Ayanokouji has a Graduate level education in a vast array of subjects which certainly qualifies as knowledge spreading over multiple fields, it is also important to note that even as a child his knowledge in each specific field was so great that "world class" instructors felt the need to leave the WR since they could not longer teach him anything.
Vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits – The human upper limit in terms of the WR curriculum is directly stated to be level 5. Anything higher than that has a 100% failure rate with Ayanokouji as the sole exception. This combined with his perfect memory, which is clearly different from a standard photographic memory, and his stated genetic mutation which allowed for him to succeed. As for him memory, his classification here as Photographic Memory isn’t consistent with its applications in the novels. He as the ability to actively manage which memories are recalled at will, he can organize his thoughts and memories to stop people from being able to cold read him, and his absorption of information is subconscious. Using the claim that his memory is merely photographic and that his basis of E.G. is grounded solely in that is both disingenuous and a strawman. Additionally claiming that Ayanokouji having a Perfect Memory makes his intelligence less valid is laughable ridiculous. This statement's lack of logical consistency is clear when we use it in other contexts. Having a power/ability can and does allow characters to qualify for different tiering and all of a sudden claiming that isn't true would be a blatant attempt to downgrade here under false pretenses.
At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, outperforming supercomputers – While Ayanokouji isn’t developing futuristic technology, he has shown many times that he can execute complex strategies even under high pressure. Escaping the White Room, Island Strategy, Paper Shuffle Strategy, Overall X Strategy, Knife Strategy with Housen, Second Island Exam, Voting Exam, and more. As for outperforming supercomputers there is the Chess Computer feat but VSBW defines this as such: “Outperforming supercomputers" is here used as an umbrella term for the ability to perform extremely advanced thought processes such as calculations and multitasking. Under this definition his aforementioned Perfect Memory encompasses this via his full memory recall feat (PMH) during V5. Here Ayanokouji, in an instant, searches his entire life’s memories for any trace of Arisu after she claims to know about him and the White Room. This is also supported by him in Y2V11 where he again references thinking through all his memories of his school life so far in that instant. Both cases show his extremely advanced through process through this massive amount of data management. While unlike the Chess Feat this isn’t a “calculation” it is representative of his thought process and his multitasking given his ability to do this during a normal conversation.
For those following this thread based solely on the information from Ayanokouji's profile and are unfamiliar with the source material or his specific strategies I can provide more detail if needed, however given how many there are and how involved it is to explain each one I'll leave that for a response if needed.
Even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations – Ayanokouji not only has multiple highly accurate prediction feats doing exactly this, but he also has a direct statement where he says he does this.
So in conclusion Ayanokouji's feats certainly do reach the level to qualify for Extraordinary Genius and his ability to do so has NOT been refuted by the OP. While he did point out why the profile wording isn't sufficient for portraying that and needs to be amended downgrading Ayanokouji from his EG rating would be incorrect. Given how this thread was formed on the basis of Ayanokouji not fulfilling the direct definition of EG according to VSBW standards this should clear up how he certainly does.
These are their initial messages I think. These have been replied to and the discussion has been going in circles.Following. I will address this in about half a day. I have a huge exam coming up, and this has to be the worst day for it.
Also, using the anime for chess feat is dumb. We have described it many times and now, it's just internet dudes trying to find a reason for them being smarter than Kiyotaka. The anime is just secondary canon, it is used for only timeframes for fight scenes or any additional information as long as it connects with the LN in any way. If two scenes differ greatly, then LN needs to be prioritized, and the wiki is using
Also, saying that just because Kiyotaka has high learning ability due to Photographic Memory and that, Photographic Memory isn't really intelligence (even though it is and it has been helpful in outsmarting scenarios of him, but scrap that thought for once), would mean that you will be discarding that fact that he will still need to apply process to his learning efficiency and it's not just "memorizing", and that, this would mean that you are arguing that every potential Photographic Memory user is somehow a person who can improve upon their own learning speed.
Let me show how badly this argument is crafted:
Funnily, you may as well have the memory enough to memorize things, like you can basically memorize the moves of a dancer, but you will end up taking days
- If you believe that Photographic Memory would make it easy to memorize something and then apply it to your own body and learn it fast, then this is absolutely bad. You would need Bodily Kinesthetic (an intelligence subset upon many Intelligence concepts including Gardener's theory and also inclusive in the Learning Speed on FRI or Fluid Reasoning Index for Weschler's Adult's Scale for Intelligence or WASI), Learning Speed itself (sub-cat for WASI), VSI in purely physical learning (again, a sub-cat for WASI), then learning efficiency and even adaptability, which is all intelligence.
- In short, you will need to prove that every Photographic Memory user can somehow learn things as fast as Kiyotaka, BY JUST being a Photographic Memory user.
Sure, this thread may prove that Kiyotaka is not a natural genius, and he isn't, but the story of V0 itself revolves around him being an "adaptive" genius, which is again, a genius, and by that, he has demolished even those who are in the ranges of being a natural genius, like Arisu (who is narratively said to have a superior DNA and therefore was researched to be a genius), or Ichika (who again is said to be a genius). Being a "genius" is context-dependent, sure, but here, it's not a character being narcissistic or some character applauding some character out of pity, but adults (who are literal researchers) being amazed of a kid being overpowered and delivering a concrete narrative.
If you were to use that mental age statement, then earlier IQ concepts use the formula (Mental Age/Subject Age)*100, junior high students are 12-13 years old and considering the "by the time statement", I will use the lower (and it is basically lower than that), and the 20 to 30 mental age statement, the raw IQ would be 25/12*100 = 208 IQ (standard IQ measures use 145 as low-end genius generally and above 160 as higher geniuses), and funnily, this is for a normal White Room subject, and this was when White Room was just figuring out the programs for the Gen 4 (Kiyotaka's generation), it went on to become progressively better as it proceeded, and therefore, a normal subject would of course have better results than this at full efficiency, not to mention that Kiyotaka transcended all of them, did a program which is narratively said to create a "monster" compared to other geniuses, and something which was beyond just normal child torture (which was still described to be the human limit of endurance at a much lower level of the program itself). And all of it is accepted in his profile. Aside from his intelligence section, he has a bible-esque feats-section.
But again, for this thread itself, I will just need to get Kiyotaka above William James Sidis by a huge margin for him to be an Extraordinary Genius (which is very easy tbh), so choose any IQ system, I would prefer Weschler's Adult scale, I would use the sub-cats as Visual-Spatial, Fluid Reasoning, Working Memory + Processing Speed (Cognitive Proficiency) and Verbal Comprehension, can be searched by a single Wikipedia search.
I will also use about 3 of his strategies to prove its inherent complexity along with its 100% success rate in maximum scenarios and its efficiency, and get his future predictions, reading abilities and also, his brain processing speed, for which, I will use Memory Recollection feats.
HelloThere1089 mentioned the main posts @RoggerReggor and I made but here were the other ones so you don't have to go searching for them in this mess of a thread.could you point me to the "general area" where those posts were made?Or even better, link the posts themselves?
Reggor disproving the entire basis of OPs claim that Ayanokouji's memory should downgrade his intelligence multiple times in the thread.I'll keep my explanations as brief as possible while still getting the main points of what Koji did across. Certainly I can't do complete justice to reading the novels as some of these span multiple volumes and many interconnected events but I'll do my best.
Island Strategy: While the 4 classes are on a deserted island for their first special exam Ayanokouji spends time traversing the island and gathering information. This included observing Class A's current leader Katsuragi and profiling him and his methods from a brief interaction. Then when he and 2 other classmates encountered a class C student, Ibuki, in the woods alone he noticed dirt under her fingernails and the ground under her was slightly disturbed. From here he deduced the following:
1. Ibuki has dirt under her fingernails.
2. The ground beneath her is disturbed.
-------------------------------------
She dug in the ground and buried something.
1. She wouldn’t just bury something in the ground if she was kicked out of her Class and is on her own?
2. All personal items were confiscated before entering the island so anything she had was from the manual.
3. She buried an item from the manual she got by spending points.
4. The buried item would be out of place with her normal provisions.
--------------------------------------------------------
She doesn’t want anyone to find what she buried because it will expose the truth about her circumstances.
1. An item that exposes her as a liar would mean her getting kicked out of Class C is a lie and her true purpose being here is related to winning the exam.
2. The item must be related to finding Class D’s leader.
3. If she is here to find Class D’s leader then Class C is actively trying to win the exam.
---------------------------------------------------
Ibuki is a spy
Knowing Ibuki was a spy he investigated her bag that night to confirm what the odd noise had come from.
1. He found a digital camera in her bag.
2. He confirmed the camera was not a personal item and hadn’t been used before, meaning she acquired it on the island.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
She had the camera to gather evidence of Class D’s leader.
1. Ryuen sent Ibuki to gather evidence of Class D’s leader with a camera to photograph the evidence of Class D’s leader.
2. If Ryuen sent Ibuki to be a spy, he should trust her report on the leader’s identity without photographic evidence.
3. If the camera is found it would incriminate Ibuki as a spy which would cause their plan to fail.
4. Ibuki didn’t bury the camera, meaning she wanted to have easy access for when she needed it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Having the camera was worth the risk and necessary to their plan.
1. If the camera was worth the risk to their plan, Ryuen must need a photograph of the keycard.
2. Since Ryuen should trust Ibuki’s report as a spy, someone who doesn’t trust Ibuki needs confirmation of Class D’s leader.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class C was working with another Class who wouldn’t just trust Ibuki.
1. Class B is unlikely, since this goes against Ichinose’s personality and their alliance with Class D.
--------------------------------
Ryuen had allied with Class A for this exam.
He was able to confirm his deductions were true later when he and Horikita visited Class C’s camp and he noticed the radio Ryuen had matched Ibuki’s, and when he saw Kaneda in Class B’s camp who he knew was also a spy.
From here he manipulated Ibuki's access to information and convinced her he was a trusting and gullible person. Then he destroyed her camera with water to force her to steal his classes keycard directly. He used Horikita's illness which he observed at the onset of the exam to bait her into a fight with Ibuki, force Horikita to retire while instilling a lesson in her, and then changing leaders to deal a blow to both Classes A and C. Then by guessing their leaders correctly he won the exam in a landslide.
Paper Shuffle: Knowing Kushida was a traitor from the results of the Zodiac Exam he confronted her during the Sports Festival about giving his classes participation table to Ryuuen. This would prove useful later when he would take steps to have Kushida expelled. When the final exam was announced as a special exam he confronted Horikita to force her to focus on Kushida. By doing so he got her to choose to target Class C and bait Kushida into betraying the class to Ryuuen again. Horikita had prepared by telling Chabashira to only accept questions from her. Ayanokouji, predicting this, set up a transaction with Ryuuen where he told him about Horikita's strategy in exchange for changing the questions he gave to Kushida and giving him the old ones. He set up several layered contingencies during this period to both ensure his victory and ensure he and Horikita couldn't lose. He planted evidence of cheating on Kushida and Ike her partner since if either one were cheating both would be expelled. He had Kei check Sato's belongings for the same reason since she was his partner. So with his transaction with Ryuuen giving him "evidence" of Kushida cheating and him preventing the same tactic from being used against him he ensured he couldn't lose.
X Strategy: This is his overarching strategy involving all the intricacies of manipulating Ryuuen and acting as Class D's mastermind in the shadows. The main steps are:
This is a VERY high level overview as this took place over 6 LN volumes and multiple special exams.
- Ayanokouji identified Ryuuen as Class D’s biggest threat to advancing.
- Ayanokouji gave Ibuki the impression of a gullible follower.
- Ayanokouji profiled Hirata during the island exam and chose him as a scapegoat for X
- Ayanokouji won the island exam using Horikita to conceal his involvement
- Ayanokouji solved the Zodiac pattern learning Kei is the VIP
- Ayanokouji identified his lack of control over Class D and chose Kei to help address it.
- He gained control of Kei using Class C students so he could bait Ryuuen.
- He realized Kushida was a traitor from the zodiac results, and planned to get rid of her.
- He used his further interactions with Ibuki to make her believe he can’t be X (fortune teller and movie theatre).
- Ayanokouji planned to prove to Kei & Horikita Class D has a traitor.
- He increased Horikita’s standing in Class D further during the sports festival.
- By racing Manabu, he made Ryuuen think he couldn’t be X due to Ryuuen’s profile of X
- Doing so also appeased Chabashira somewhat and allowed him to reveal his abilities slowly.
- Ayanokouji continued to frame Hirata as the most likely person to be X.
- He used Manabe to both stop Ryuuen’s plan and lead him to connect X to Kei.
- He set up the situation to prove to Horikita and Kei that Kushida was a traitor.
- Ayanokouji manipulated Horikita into confronting Kushida directly during paper shuffle.
- He orchestrated the bet, used it to learn about Kushida’s past and stopped her from interfering.
- He sent letters to the grade to gain intel on Ryuuen’s personality, and create contingencies vs Ryuuen in their confrontation.
- He forced Ryuuen into a transaction so he could counter Kushida and win the Paper Shuffle.
- He predicted the exact outcome of a conversation to learn if Kushida had a spare uniform.
- He used that knowledge to trap her in case she won her bet.
- Ayanokouji continued to frame Hirata as X when Ryuuen confronted Koenji.
- When Ryuuen was ready for the final confrontation with X, Ayanokouji set up a solid alibi.
- He involved Chabashira and Manabu so that Ryuuen couldn’t claim he started the fight.
- He arrived at the rooftop as planned where Kei would now believe he would always save her.
- Upon arriving Ryuuen thought Hirata manipulated Ayanokouji into showing up at first.
- Ayanokouji explained his plan and resolved the situation with violence.
Knife Strategy: After meeting with Tsukishiro in Y1V11.5 Ayanokouji makes several deductions regarding the WR and its operatives acting in ANHS. He begins to prepare by considering the most likely scenario "They don't care about their own expulsion so they go with the premise to be expelled either way, so they wouldn’t mind taking actions against the school rules to ensure that Ayanokoji would be expelled. He considers that they would try to approach him in the special exam or have contact with him in one way or another later on."
He initially observed Housen as someone who was likely not a WR student because his appearance and behavior wasn’t that of what Atsuomi would approve of a WR student, or how a WR student would behave/operate. Housen didn’t care one bit about attracting attention to his problematic behavior. In Tsukishiro’s position, he would’ve instructed whoever he sent after Ayanokoji to avoid doing anything to stand out. While this could have been an intentional misdirection, that was unlikely.
During the negotiations with Housen to get class 1-D to cooperate with 2-D things turned violent. After attacking Horikita and Sudo, Housen pulled out a knife which Ayanokouji recognized. From that he deduced Ichika's involvement and Housen's goal since he knew about the 20M point bounty on him. From here he decided to stop Housen from stabbing himself by forcing him to stab his hand. By allowing his hand to be stabbed he would gain immediate leverage over Housen and could force him into cooperation, he could also secure him as a partner for the exam which protected him even on the off chance Housen was a WR enforcer. Using the wound as evidence he could prove foul play if Housen were tank his scores to try and get Ayanokouji expelled.
Here are some examples of his strategic thinking and with some under high pressure situations. There are others but this is already very long.
True. I will get this straight with higher size font so people can see it and not ignore it.
The Perfect Memory argument is VERBATIM debunked by Kiyotaka himself and the entire argument about it in the OP or in the thread against it is based on a theory given by another character who himself said that if Kiyotaka was doing it based on memory, then he would face problems with it (which he canonically never did).
Further, Kiyotaka himself criticizes those who do it based on memory, and mentions that more than the memorization and grasping power, it was the application of basics to yourself which mattered more, meaning that his achievements are more favored by it than his memorization.
Being based on theory, this thread will just be pushing on an assumption (which is falsified by a character statement itself) and trying to debunk it based on it.
Secondly, Perfect Memory can be proven to be intelligence (based on Gardener's concepts which is an intelligence concept), Photographic Memory isn't.
His Intelligence compared to the VSBW definition of EGThanks, Huntsman, for carrying the debate. I am currently down with illness (got diagnosed just an hour later) but I think I will express thoughts on some things. And of course, I will try to write the reply I talked about later on for sure.
Ok, so for this. Sidis according to the raw IQ system would be very high, personally and basically the epitome of human intelligence through raw IQ systems if we characterize him by his achievements.
But if Sidis was to be scaled in Weschler's scale, then he might not even be remotely close to his suggested raw IQ. For example, all he has is FRI feats, he lacks VSI and CPIand would be pretty much an Akiyama victim in that. The same was with Terence Tao as well.
And in my honest opinion, I wouldn't rank Sidis beyond level 4. Ichika (a gen 5 and level 4 subject) narratively learnt university level stuff at the age of 11 as well. Also, she has the feat of learning archery in about a day, and also, Sidis may have a Harvard achievement at a young age, but that would be related with a handful of courses. Ichika had to be perfect with the same or a better efficiency at almost everything including physical, academic and intellectual quests and basically learn even those courses which she may have never wanted to learn.
Ok, so talking about this. So, the entire "Kiyotaka's Learning Ability is due to Memory" argument comes from this single statement, or should I better refer to it as a theory:
![]()
Now, to provide the context. This statement/theory is given by Suzukake, the Generation 4 head instructor. Now, the thing about this is that Suzukake has already made a very bad statement by underrating Kiyotaka's emotional intelligence and saying that he didn't know what most people did, but as everyone who read the novel probably knows, Kiyotaka never really showed that he cared, and he was always attentive to others and used to make his own deductions upon people's emotions and even analyzed emotions in V0 monologues.
Funnily, Kiyotaka verbatim debunks this entire theory all by himself:
![]()
Here, in this statement by Kiyotaka himself. He implies that focusing on memorization without actually applying the basics wasn't really the thing to learn. He draws a fine line between him and other natural geniuses like Yuki and Shiro who got results all by their "sense", but he himself mentions that it was still possible to surpass them, and we know he does surpass them later on.
So again, first of all, Kiyotaka himself mentions that it isn't just memorization, but actually focusing on learning and applying the things learnt to yourself.
Now, going with the memory, so bidding on the fact that Photographic Memory can actually help you learn is not the best of the arguments. Firstly, Photographic Memory is an ability to learn things by just taking a glance at them, but let's be real, if a Photographic Memory user memorizes something in a glance, then it can be memorized by a normal human as well, just not with the same speed as the former, meaning that memorizing should ultimately be the key to learning, which is just false, because even if you were to memorize the basics, you may fail to apply them, which is the thing.
Also, Suzukake mentioned that Kiyotaka would face some consequences if he was really doing his learning via memorization, he would face negative effects of it, which he basically never does reportedly, and his learning is unwavered.
So the combat EG rating is something I don't care to comment on at the moment since I am less familiar in trying to scale BIQ, but for his standard EG rating, looking at the OPs post I see no reason why this thread shouldn't be rejected and Ayanokouji should keep his EG rating while some edits are made to his Intelligence section better explaining it.
I pointed out multiple reasons here and even if for the sake of argument we assume that the Chess feat isn't valid for the outperforming supercomputers part of the EG definition, its explanation of being a measure of an advanced thought process is more than covered by his memory recall feats. So even without Chess Feat Ayanokouji still qualifies for an EG rating.
I'll address some of the more recent counters and why they don't support removing Ayanokouji's EG rating.
Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields - I think at this point most people don't have issue with this. He has beyond graduate levels of knowledge in a vast array of topics as has been discussed. His knowledge in many subjects was so advanced that instructors, which I again assert are "geniuses in their fields" and "world class" had to leave with nothing left to teach him.
Scans again:
Vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits - Here I brought up both the direct scan showing that level 6 curriculum is the "human limit" I compared it to an example of peak human in William James Sidis. They both involve learning multiple languages before age 5, both involve studying a wide variety of subjects at a high level early on, both studying university level subject around age 11, both were polymaths. Again I pointed out how Ayanokouji did massively better than this by learning multiple languages by age 4, was studying university level topics at age 5 instead of 11, his ability in each of these subjects is so advanced it led to genius instructors running out of things to teach him. Plus all the times the beta curriculum was explained to be vastly beyond anything of the other levels.
At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology - No he isn't.
Executing complex strategies even under high pressure - Yes, as explained in the post above.
Outperforming supercomputers[1]
[1]: “Outperforming supercomputers" is here used as an umbrella term for the ability to perform extremely advanced thought processes such as calculations and multitasking - Addressed this above and pointed out even ignoring the chess feat Ayanokouji still qualifies here on the basis of his memory recall feats.
Accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculation - Yes, as he does have feats predicting the future and has a direct statement of being able to calculate future possibilities and can use that to predict the future.
No problem.Saved me a lot of work. Thanks.
No your memory argument was entirely debunked. In the OP post you claimed that his vast knowledge, his intelligence feats in the WR, and him surpassing the other generations were due to his Perfect Memory "a supernatural ability" in your words. You used this as your reasoning for why it doesn't qualify for EG.Btw the memory thing was never debunked. All you guys did was prove that Ayanokouji's memory ability is even more overpowered because he can actually subjectively choose what to remember and what not to remember.
Not to mention, you again are under the presumption that my point was to completely discard feats that used his memory. This is not the case, I only suggested that feats of learning things in short times/at a young age, would be significantly less impressive as a result of his overpowered memory ability. His knowledge and capacity to use said knowledge is not affected by this factor either.
Regardless, the debate has evolved far beyond the memory stuff, and in fact, I have repeated multiple times that it does not change the downgrade even if you were to discard those arguments.
This is due to his ability, which is perfect memory. This has nothing to do with intellect. It's a supernatural capability.
All of this is definitely impressive for a child but none of it is really anything more than gifted intellect, especially considering he is literally gifted with perfect memory. He's just exceptionally prodigious.
Being knowledgeable in various fields isn't anything special. This is really vague as well. Again, not a supporting feat for Extraordinary Genius.
An explanation of Photographic Memory, which is an ability, not an aspect of his intellect.
Impressive for a child, no doubt, but again, this is simply prodigious levels of intelligence, and is heavily, heavily aided by him having perfect memory. It's another gifted feat on its own.
This post doesn't even make sense to me.No your memory argument was entirely debunked. In the OP post you claimed that his vast knowledge, his intelligence feats in the WR, and him surpassing the other generations were due to his Perfect Memory "a supernatural ability" in your words. You used this as your reasoning for why it doesn't qualify for EG.
Reggor showed how your reasoning on that is incorrect and his memory doesn't merit downgrading his intelligence, because Ayanokouji still has to learn things and why his memory is tied to intelligence. You are trying to downscale intelligence on the basis that "it is easier to be smart with a perfect memory" which is entirely irrelevant since his memory doesn't boost his intelligence. He still learned everything.
Yes but you are improperly conflating two things together. You are saying that because Ayanokouji's memory is superior his intelligence is less impressive because it took less effort to obtain it. This is incredibly flimsy logic and easily disproven. Pro athletes can achieve success at the highest levels due to factors like good genetics (height size etc.) and often a lot of natural talent. Does that also mean their skills are less impressive overall? Of course not. You are literally making a case for why his intelligence should be HIGHER not lower. If it was easy for him to master this much knowledge his memory makes the case for his higher intelligence tier.This post doesn't even make sense to me.
Memory is the fundamental basis of "learning" something, in the first place. Without memory, you have no recollection or knowledge of anything. Memory in the real world requires people to make multiple repetitions over the same subjects in order to grasp the material. Meanwhile, someone who has perfect memory never forgets the information they are given to "learn" something—they grasp the subject to the extent they are told of it, the very first time. Kouji can even just directly choose what he remembers. Someone like that very clearly has an unreal and supernatural advantage when it comes to learning. It's really not that difficult to understand the point I am making, here.
Please actually read the scans you try to imply help your points, this helps my point more than yours. The instructors talk about how he has an extra 3 years of memories stored in his memory due to a lack of infantile amnesia. It just means he remembers more knowledge than other students. You will probably try to point out the line "the secret of his overwhelming learning ability is also related to this" but remember that Reggor already disproved the connection between Ayanokouji's memory and his learning ability.Moreover, you go on to say that "memory doesn't boost his intelligence." The series itself disagrees with you, so now what?
So the claim that his memory is the basis for his learning ability is false, and it just gives him the ability to store any information he gets and then he has control over what information he recalls at a given time, which I'll point out you agreed with.Ok, so talking about this. So, the entire "Kiyotaka's Learning Ability is due to Memory" argument comes from this single statement, or should I better refer to it as a theory:
![]()
Now, to provide the context. This statement/theory is given by Suzukake, the Generation 4 head instructor. Now, the thing about this is that Suzukake has already made a very bad statement by underrating Kiyotaka's emotional intelligence and saying that he didn't know what most people did, but as everyone who read the novel probably knows, Kiyotaka never really showed that he cared, and he was always attentive to others and used to make his own deductions upon people's emotions and even analyzed emotions in V0 monologues.
Funnily, Kiyotaka verbatim debunks this entire theory all by himself:
![]()
Here, in this statement by Kiyotaka himself. He implies that focusing on memorization without actually applying the basics wasn't really the thing to learn. He draws a fine line between him and other natural geniuses like Yuki and Shiro who got results all by their "sense", but he himself mentions that it was still possible to surpass them, and we know he does surpass them later on.
So again, first of all, Kiyotaka himself mentions that it isn't just memorization, but actually focusing on learning and applying the things learnt to yourself.
Now, going with the memory, so bidding on the fact that Photographic Memory can actually help you learn is not the best of the arguments. Firstly, Photographic Memory is an ability to learn things by just taking a glance at them, but let's be real, if a Photographic Memory user memorizes something in a glance, then it can be memorized by a normal human as well, just not with the same speed as the former, meaning that memorizing should ultimately be the key to learning, which is just false, because even if you were to memorize the basics, you may fail to apply them, which is the thing.
Also, Suzukake mentioned that Kiyotaka would face some consequences if he was really doing his learning via memorization, he would face negative effects of it, which he basically never does reportedly, and his learning is unwavered.
All you guys did was prove that Ayanokouji's memory ability is even more overpowered because he can actually subjectively choose what to remember and what not to remember.
1. It isn't easily disproven consider it's just objectively correct that memory aids in learning. Trying to go against this point substantially decreases your credibility.Yes but you are improperly conflating two things together. You are saying that because Ayanokouji's memory is superior his intelligence is less impressive because it took less effort to obtain it. This is incredibly flimsy logic and easily disproven. Pro athletes can achieve success at the highest levels due to factors like good genetics (height size etc.) and often a lot of natural talent. Does that also mean their skills are less impressive overall? Of course not. You are literally making a case for why his intelligence should be HIGHER not lower. If it was easy for him to master this much knowledge his memory makes the case for his higher intelligence tier.
His memory is also NOT supernatural since there is no evidence of the supernatural in verse. Even if it were that doesn't change the fact that it only helps him retain information which he still has to learn and that means he still has the aggregate of all that knowledge. The memory arguments for downgrade are ridiculous.
You saying this literally just proves my point, thank you. Thanks to you saying this directly I am now even more certain that his memory is a significant factor in how he is perceived in COTE.Please actually read the scans you try to imply help your points, this helps my point more than yours. The instructors talk about how he has an extra 3 years of memories stored in his memory due to a lack of infantile amnesia. It just means he remembers more knowledge than other students. You will probably try to point out the line "the secret of his overwhelming learning ability is also related to this" but remember that Reggor already disproved the connection between Ayanokouji's memory and his learning ability.
Yes, which significantly aids in learning ability. The series itself says this. You yourself said this.So the claim that his memory is the basis for his learning ability is false, and it just gives him the ability to store any information he gets and then he has control over what information he recalls at a given time, which I'll point out you agreed with.
- Extraordinary Genius: Ayanokouji
- At least Genius: Shiro, Yuki, Yagami, Amasawa, Sakayanagi, Nagumo
- Genius: Kouenji, Manabu Horikira, Ishigami, Suzune Horikita
- Unknown, possibly Genius: Tsukishiro
- At least Gifted: Kiryuuen
- Gifted: Kanzaki, Ryuuen, Nanase, Utomiya
- Above average: Housen, Ibuki, Shiba
- Average: Albert, Ishizaki, Sudou
I think that they would require a thread of their own tbh....@Phoenks question, if Ayanokouji’s intelligence gets downgraded what happens to the rest of the verse? Do they all drop downward? You can safely assume everyone other than Ayanokouji is different shades of inferior to him. This is the current state of the verse:
Like I said, even if we treat his memory as supernatural it doesn't merit downgrading his intelligence on the basis of "he had an easier path to get smarter"1. It isn't easily disproven consider it's just objectively correct that memory aids in learning. Trying to go against this point substantially decreases your credibility.
2. It is supernatural by virtue of that not being a capability that exists in the real world. Even if the verse doesn't treat it as such.
Idk what you are going on about with this. The scans and Reggor's points literally disprove this for the millionth time. In this scan the instructors are talking about his memory but as already proven, that isn't the basis of his intelligence of learning ability. It just means he doesn't forget things.You saying this literally just proves my point, thank you. Thanks to you saying this directly I am now even more certain that his memory is a significant factor in how he is perceived in COTE.
I didn't say this, I disagreed with this and so does the series. By saying I agreed with this you somehow took the direct opposite of what I said.Yes, which significantly aids in learning ability. The series itself says this. You yourself said this.
Goodness, stop going in circles with me. This is getting ridiculous.
The series disproving the point here with what Reggor proved which you are again ignoring.So the claim that his memory is the basis for his learning ability is false, and it just gives him the ability to store any information he gets and then he has control over what information he recalls at a given time, which I'll point out you agreed with.
So you are not only trying to claim I agreed with you when I clearly said the opposite, but also when I pointed out how the series disproves your point you ignored that and claimed it supported you instead when that is clearly wrong.Ok, so talking about this. So, the entire "Kiyotaka's Learning Ability is due to Memory" argument comes from this single statement, or should I better refer to it as a theory:
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Now, to provide the context. This statement/theory is given by Suzukake, the Generation 4 head instructor. Now, the thing about this is that Suzukake has already made a very bad statement by underrating Kiyotaka's emotional intelligence and saying that he didn't know what most people did, but as everyone who read the novel probably knows, Kiyotaka never really showed that he cared, and he was always attentive to others and used to make his own deductions upon people's emotions and even analyzed emotions in V0 monologues.
Funnily, Kiyotaka verbatim debunks this entire theory all by himself:
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Here, in this statement by Kiyotaka himself. He implies that focusing on memorization without actually applying the basics wasn't really the thing to learn. He draws a fine line between him and other natural geniuses like Yuki and Shiro who got results all by their "sense", but he himself mentions that it was still possible to surpass them, and we know he does surpass them later on.
So again, first of all, Kiyotaka himself mentions that it isn't just memorization, but actually focusing on learning and applying the things learnt to yourself.
Now, going with the memory, so bidding on the fact that Photographic Memory can actually help you learn is not the best of the arguments. Firstly, Photographic Memory is an ability to learn things by just taking a glance at them, but let's be real, if a Photographic Memory user memorizes something in a glance, then it can be memorized by a normal human as well, just not with the same speed as the former, meaning that memorizing should ultimately be the key to learning, which is just false, because even if you were to memorize the basics, you may fail to apply them, which is the thing.
Also, Suzukake mentioned that Kiyotaka would face some consequences if he was really doing his learning via memorization, he would face negative effects of it, which he basically never does reportedly, and his learning is unwavered.
Ayanokouji can just like... be the highest-end genius in the verse??? Nothing needs to change if those folks have Intelligence sections that are accurate.@Phoenks question, if Ayanokouji’s intelligence gets downgraded what happens to the rest of the verse? Do they all drop downward? You can safely assume everyone other than Ayanokouji is different shades of inferior to him. This is the current state of the verse:
Horikita’s definitely isn’t accurate.Ayanokouji can just like... be the highest-end genius in the verse??? Nothing needs to change if those folks have Intelligence sections that are accurate.
I disagree with E.G being on the page at all. I'm unwilling to agree with that. I don't think Huntsman's points hold any merit, like, objectively.@Phoenks @TheHuntsman1001 what would you say to “At least Genius, Possibly Extraordinary Genius”. If he’s either a high-end Genius (Intellect and feats) or low-end Extraordinary Genius (Knowledge). Wouldn’t it just be the natural thing to do?
Honestly, I haven't seen valid criticism in this thread to downgrade Ayanokouji below EG at all. I disagree with him being below EG at all.@Phoenks @TheHuntsman1001 what would you say to “At least Genius, Possibly Extraordinary Genius”. If he’s either a high-end Genius (Intellect and feats) or low-end Extraordinary Genius (Knowledge). Wouldn’t it just be the natural thing to do?
He edited his message saying it was made before rebuttals since he said that before counter arguments were posted, and I don't think he made any posts here since.Anyway I don't know what others think but I already have 2 staffs saying Genius. Albeit Qaswed hasn't stopped by in a while.
To quote the page
Being a polymath is enough to hit a Genius rating, which the character would qualify for. They just don't have the fictional levels of intelligence required for higher ratings. Calling them Gifted is seemingly a lowball.
So my vote would be a downgrade to Genius.
EDIT: Was made before the rebuttal.
Did I just hear "Start another war"?Slayer said he needs time to think (his words not mine). So y'all have no choice but to wait for now. Unless another staff gives their vote. Honestly this should have become a staff only by now. Also no point in increasing the page count since every new mod will have to scroll back.
Would you agree to "At least Genius" then?I disagree with E.G being on the page at all. I'm unwilling to agree with that. I don't think Huntsman's points hold any merit, like, objectively.
What's the current proposal I guessAnyway I don't know what others think but I already have 2 staffs saying Genius. Albeit Qaswed hasn't stopped by in a while.
Just read from the top of this page (13) down.What's the current proposal I guess
There is still disagreement on that. Phoenks still disagrees with any form of EG for Ayanokouji as asserted in the OP while myself and @RoggerReggor are the main supporters for him keeping his EG and I disagree with any removal of it from his profile. Here were some of the key posts made in the thread since you last checked in with it linked in these posts earlier on page 13 of this thread.What's the current proposal I guess
Here were some of the other important posts disagreeing with the OP linked here.These are their initial messages I think. These have been replied to and the discussion has been going in circles.
HelloThere1089 mentioned the main posts @RoggerReggor and I made but here were the other ones so you don't have to go searching for them in this mess of a thread.
Reading from the top of the page down I really only see the following part being hitJust read from the top of this page (13) down.
In that he has expert knowledge in multiple fields and exceeds a IRL person's shown intelligence. The main issue is that he's only a EG for those reasons and other than complex strategies I'm not seeing supported.. Nothing is futuristic technology, outperforming a supercomputer or doing math based precog.Extraordinary Genius: Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science and who vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits. At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, outperforming supercomputers,[1] and even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations. This is where super scientists of exceptional scientific knowledge begin to appear.
So you'd agree with this @Qawsedf234@Phoenks @TheHuntsman1001 what would you say to “At least Genius, Possibly Extraordinary Genius”. If he’s either a high-end Genius (Intellect and feats) or low-end Extraordinary Genius (Knowledge). Wouldn’t it just be the natural thing to do?
Complex strategies he has many. I can attest to that, you can see X strategy / etc on the profile in the current feats section. The problem is that those have inaccuracies in them. so, I can post the updated X strategy summary I wroteReading from the top of the page down I really only see the following part being hit
In that he has expert knowledge in multiple fields and exceeds a IRL person's shown intelligence. The main issue is that he's only a EG for those reasons and other than complex strategies I'm not seeing supported.. Nothing is futuristic technology, outperforming a supercomputer or doing math based precog.
He's at least Genius, and I think like baseline EG can be argued. But he'd be at the bottom of that level.
One of Ayanokouji's most impressive strategies happens after the Island exam. Ryuuen, suspecting that a mastermind ("X") within Class 1-D thwarted his Island exam plan, begins his search. Ayanokouji anticipated that this would occur, and thus has already misled Ibuki from Class 1-C into thinking he’s a nobody when she was imbedded as a spy in Class 1-D during the island exam and when he interacts with her afterwards.
Ayanokouji then moves to gain control over his own class by manipulating Kei Karuizawa, who's at the top of Class 1-D's social ladder. After discovering that her relationship with Yosuke Hirata is a facade for Karuizawa's protection, he orchestrates a bullying campaign against her using Manabe and her group from Class 1-C. Ayanokouji then "rescues" Karuizawa, after recording a video of Manabe and her friends bullying her. He thus forces Karuizawa into a partnership, where he offers protection in exchange for her obedience. The choice of using Manabe from Class 1-C is deliberate, aiming to eventually link Karuizawa to X in Ryuuen's mind. In the Zodiac exam, Ayanokouji implements a phone swap strategy that ends up winning the group for his class, demonstrating the credibility of his protection to Karuizawa.
Afterwards, and by utilizing Karuizawa's influence, Ayanokouji indirectly controls his classmates, solidifying his position as the hidden mastermind of Class 1-D. He dismantles Ryuuen's scheme in the sports festival by anticipating Ryuuen's plan and using the bullying video to force Manabe into betraying Ryuuen. And in the paper shuffle, he constantly remains one step ahead and predicts and thwarts Ryuuen's plans. Throughout all of this, Ayanokouji used Ryuuen's own understanding of X to misdirect him. First, Ayanokouji's calculatedly outstanding performance in the sports festival made Ayanokouji stand out. In addition, Ayanokouji purposefully shows up to Ryuuen's trap when Ryuuen confronted Kouenji as X and asked Hirata to stay behind. Using these acts as red herrings, Ryuuen was misled into thinking Hirata was X and not Ayanokouji.
As Ryuuen eventually uncovers the connection between Karuizawa and X (a part of Ayanokouji's plan), he confronts her on the rooftop, threatening to expose her past of bullying to the entire school and subjecting her to psychological and physical torture, demanding X's identity. Despite Karuizawa's desperate hope in Ayanokouji's promise of protection, he remains conspicuously absent, fully aware of her ordeal. He does this to test how loyal she is to him and to strengthen her attachment to him once he shows up.
Finally, Ayanokouji makes his dramatic entrance, revealing himself as X. This revelation stuns not only Ryuuen but his entire gang; because of how thoroughly Ayanokouji has camouflaged himself, he has to explain his island exam plan part by part for them to believe he's X. Ryuuen then resorts to violence. However, Ayanokouji completely overwhelms Ryuuen and his gang in a fight. Ayanokouji declares that the current situation where violence was the solution was what he wanted from the very beginning, and that Ryuuen was simply dancing in the palm of his hand. Furthermore, Ryuuen is incapable of exposing either Karuizawa or Ayanokouji because he had Manabu Horikita watch the whole confrontation from the stairs, and thus Class 1-C would take tremendous damage if this incident was reported. During this, Ayanokouji monologues that Kei revealing his identity or Manabu not cooperating wouldn't affect his plan, as he had other backups in place for those scenarios if they occurred.
In the end, by thoroughly dominating Ryuuen in every aspect, Ayanokouji petrifies Ryuuen – something that Ryuuen had never experienced before. Ryuuen, who had tremendous tenacity, realizes there's no path for him to defeating Ayanokouji and gives up, deciding to drop out of the school. However, Ayanokouji uses Albert and Ishizaki to prevent him from doing so, and thus he eventually transforms Ryuuen into an attack dog against Ichinose and Sakayanagi. Thus, Ayanokouji completely neutralizes and redirects Ryuuen away from his class, indirectly takes control of his own class, and does all of this while remaining hidden from almost everyone in his class and grade. Furthermore, he accomplishes this while juggling through other plans and accomplishing other objectives unrelated to Ryuuen.
Tbh even that part is very shaky and debatable. The only reference we are given for him surpassing real-life peak levels of knowledge is the other students. Also, I don't even know how humans could make a curriculum that surpasses peak human's knowledge... doesn't even really make sense to me.Reading from the top of the page down I really only see the following part being hit
In that he has expert knowledge in multiple fields and exceeds a IRL person's shown intelligence. The main issue is that he's only a EG for those reasons and other than complex strategies I'm not seeing supported.. Nothing is futuristic technology, outperforming a supercomputer or doing math based precog.
He's at least Genius, and I think like baseline EG can be argued. But he'd be at the bottom of that level.