Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

[Worthless]

Horikita helped Ayanokouji with the camera bluff in the Sudo trial, LN it was Ichinose

I def remember it being Horikita and her realizing in the end that Ayanokoji led her to that action

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I def remember it being Horikita and her realizing in the end that Ayanokoji led her to that action

In the anime that is correct. In the LN that scene in the special building was Koji and Ichinose.

 

[Worthless]

In the anime that is correct. In the LN that scene in the special building was Koji and Ichinose.

This stuck me the most

“Hey, Ayanokouji-kun. Am I just your puppet?"

“My puppet? What are you talking about?”

“Ayanokouji-kun, you brought up the idea of surveillance cameras in the classrooms. Next, you took me to the special building and made me realize that there were no cameras. Then, you guided me to the idea of inventing false evidence, so that we could parse the truth from lies… When I look back on it now, that’s all I can think of.”

“You’re overthinking it. It’s just coincidence.”

“Who are you?”

“What do you mean, who am I? I’m just a guy who dislikes trouble, right?”

I realized that I had gotten involved a little too much this time. I’d need to reflect on that. The always-sharp Horikita probably guessed my thoughts, to some extent.
I had to dial it back a little.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

This stuck me the most

Yes. These are 2 separate scenes. Horikita went with him to the special annex and “got” the idea about cameras. But when he called the class C students out it was Ichinose who met them with him.

Later was this conversation about Horikita being manipulated.

 

[Worthless]

Yes. These are 2 separate scenes. Horikita went with him to the special annex and “got” the idea about cameras. But when he called the class C students out it was Ichinose who met them with him.

Later was this conversation about Horikita being manipulated.

I kind of remember the opposite, specially the part where she pretended there were cameras. But whatever it's been several years since the last time I read this vol

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

I believe Reggor's point is that given the drastic differences between the LN and the anime making the blanket assumption that anime timeline events happen the same as in the LN in incorrect. Some examples:

40 students per class in the LN, 25 in the anime
Horikita helped Ayanokouji with the camera bluff in the Sudo trial, LN it was Ichinose
Horikita helped in the pool episode with the cameras, LN it was Kei
Planets Exam with 8 groups in the anime, Zodiac Exam 12 groups in the LN
Contruction site confrontation in the anime, Rooftop in the LN
etc.

So the point being that the Anime and LN are separate continuities that contain some similarities. If the anime offers additional information and context without replacing, contradicting, or otherwise breaking with the LN then some content can be used. However, when the content differs from the LN then it should be treated as a divergence from the source material and not used for scaling.

For the Chess Match, simply put the specific moves made in the anime are a divergence from the LN for the very reason that Arisu is a better chess player than any of the masters Koji beat in the WR. A true analysis of the anime match shows her ELO to be that of an intermediate player at best which is a clear break from the LN canon that contradicts that. What this argument is trying to do is override LN canon which states Arisu is a high level player and replace it with anime canon that she is intermediate. That is why such an argument is invalid.

Reggor can you confirm what I said above is correct.

I'll reply to your other arguement later, but if this is the case and the LN & Anime are so vastly diffrent, why the f*ck are they on the same profile? You litteraly said that they are entirely seperate continuities. Why are we allowing feats from the anime in Ayanokouji's profile if that's the case? Shouldn't they have diffrent profiles if they differ to such a degree?

You're allowed to use things from the anime when it supports my point of view. But use it against me and oh nonononono, it's not actually canon and it is an entirely diffrent thing and how dare you ever even consider using things from the Anime to prove a point. But also if it offers additional information (that supports my point of view ofc) then yes you can fully use it 100% no questions asked

This is how you sound right now lmao

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I'll reply to your other arguement later, but if this is the case and the LN & Anime are so vastly diffrent, why the f*ck are they on the same profile? You litteraly said that they are entirely seperate continuities. Why are we allowing feats from the anime in Ayanokouji's profile if that's the case? Shouldn't they have diffrent profiles if they differ to such a degree?


This is how you sound right now lmao

Except I’m not using the anime to make my point. I’m saying if you need to use the anime to contradict the LN in making your point then you are making an invalid point.

Also idk why the LN and anime don’t have separate profiles but they do have separate keys. If you want to argue the anime key needs its intelligence section downgraded based on this go ahead, but doing so overall or for the LN is incorrect.

 

[Phoenks]

. What is the human limit for the curriculum. Now to your point about this information being possible to learn, just not by a child, which makes it less impressive. That is an incorrect evaluation of the WR curriculum. It isn’t just about being able to do this as a child or not, it’s about being able to maintain all that knowledge. While we don’t have much information about the specific curriculum of level 6-10 which were the levels deemed impossible and above human limits, we do know about level 4 (5th generation students did this) and the beta curriculum Koji did and we know 6-10 fall in between these. The main differences are the speed at which subjects are taught and how much they are expected to learn at once.

As for comparing this to “peak human” even the 5th gen students get very close to this and the 4th gen surpasses it by a lot. Peak Human Intelligence would be a polymath, someone who is highly adept in a variety of topics. 5th gen students reach this point by age 11-12, studying graduate level courses in their wide array of subjects. Unlike normal people who study just one or two subjects at this level, the WR continuously raises the difficulty over time until reaching this point. So by age 12 even the 5th gen has made its surviving students into polymaths + physical training. The 4th gen did this by age 5-6 with its students surpassing that peak human status after that. Since he has been mentioned before in this thread, we can refer to William James Sidis as an example of peak human which hasn’t been surpassed IRL.

So essentially it is vague, as I said, and there is no evidence so suggest these subjects are far beyond the peak human knowledge in these areas.

While I do think this is probably a good polymath feat valid for genius intellect, I don't see it being valid for Extraordinary Genius. There simply isn't enough evidence for that.

I don’t actually understand why you don’t agree with his memory being different from photographic given even your own points have his memory different from it. Otherwise, anyone with a photographic memory should be able to achieve results similar to Ayanokouji IRL, but that clearly isn’t the case. You are arguing that his memory is so advanced that he has feats above human limits only possible via his memory, but also claim his memory is not significantly different from a photographic memory. To be clear, I am arguing that Ayanokouji's Perfect Memory > Photographic Memory.

I am also under the belief that Ayanokouji's Perfect Memory is > Photographic Memory. I have been saying this since the beginning. This doesn't do you any good though. It just makes it even more beneficial to him in a way that makes his feats of learning information far less impressive.

What you seem to not realize is that nobody in the real world has photographic memory. It's a supernatural ability that doesn't exist, as I've stated and provided scans of earlier in this conversation. If it did exist, humans would 1000% be capable of what Kouji is capable of.

You are correct that Ayanokouji’s predictions are not the results of a supernatural ability, and that is exactly why it is valid for EG.

You misunderstand.

I'm saying that his level of prediction is not beyond human/reality. We see these kinds of predictions in the real world. Being able to decipher people's personalities and motives to predict them based on that information is not as impressive as you're trying to make it out to be.

 

[MCH2]

Wasn't there a feat where Ayanokouji beat a an advance chess supercomputer? Those supercomputers are more advanced than our IRL supercomputers and I've heard that modern chess bots can beat the best human Chess players in the world. I saw it in a TikTok video, it must be true.

(disclaimer: I used Gemini to fix shit formatting)

Let's debunk some myths related to the chess game:

Myth 1: Defeating a Supercomputer at Age 6

Source: YouTube slideshow video.

Reality: False. This claim is complete misinformation. Volume 0, which has Ayanokouji's childhood, makes no mention of this event. Chess is barely discussed in volume 0.

Myth 2: Out Computing a Supercomputer in Chess

Source: Classroom of the Elite Vol. 11, during his chess match with Arisu Sakayanagi.

Quote: "He was planning to use a different move, at the time. An even better move than the best one we could’ve come up with. I had a significant number of personnel and even a dedicated machine in place, and we were still forced into making an extremely difficult decision.” - Tsukishiro (talking to Arisu and Ayanokouji)

Reality: Misinterpreted/exaggerated. While he made a move deemed superior to the engine's suggestion, this doesn't equate to out computing a supercomputer (it's not even a supercomputer, it's stated as a machine in V11 and shown as a laptop in the anime). Human players (2700+ ELO) have done this in real life. when this usually happens, the human moves are not necessarily "superior" to the top engine recommendations in an absolute sense. Rather, they are equally strong alternatives with significantly more practical difficulties for human opponents

Myth 3: Perfect Memory

Source: Volume 0. based on Ayanokouji getting a perfect score in a hidden implicit memory test and based on his ability to recall events in his first 3 years of life.

Reality: False. Year 2 Volume 12 directly contradicts this. Ayanokouji forgets the exact March class points from a year prior (318/377), recalling it as "around 350". Not only does Ayanokouji himself state he forgot this, but it's also something he saw in Vol 11 and recalled in Vol 11.5. He does forget things, even if rarely.

Myth 4: Anime Chess Moves

Reality: Mixed. What happened very specifically is that an end game position is described in the LN, and it's described narratively and without detail, but it's the action climax of the battle. The anime thus worked backwards from an end position that fit and made nonsensical filler moves to stretch the game and to eventually get to the endgame position. The narrative of the endgame position was:

1. Arisu and Ayanokouji are perfectly matched. With Ayanokouji stating that if he makes one mistake, he will instantly lose.
2. Arisu makes a move; Ayanokouji here states that Arisu's main goal is NOT winning but drawing out his full skill. In the anime, this is shown as her making a risky move, where she losses her advantage if Ayanokouji spots a difficult queen sacrifice but is guaranteed to win if he doesn't.
3. Ayanokouji finds the move that turns the game around and makes the game winning in his favor.
4. Tsukishiro switches the move, thus Ayanokouji losses.

The anime end game position is narratively consistent with all of this and with the LN narrative. The anime's starter moves are nonsensical because they worked backwards. This isn't unique to COTE, Lelouch from Code Geass has many examples of this.

Ayanokouji's Actual Abilities:

1. Academics:

• Math: High school Olympiad level at 5 (Vol. 0), undergraduate-level at 6 (Anime), and graduate-level math at 7+ (Y2V1).
• General Knowledge: βeta curriculum covered (non-inclusive) Japanese, English, Literature, Economics, History, Social Studies, Psychology, Philosophy, Mathematics, Biology, Physics, Chemistry, Painting, Music, etc. We can safely say, he has PHD level knowledge in practically all of this.
• Advanced Learning: Surpassed many professors by age 12, literally stated to have knowledge exceeding a typical lifetime's worth many times over.

TLDR: Possesses college professor-level knowledge in numerous domains. Virtually limitless in acquired knowledge.

2. Memory:

• Exceptional MANUAL Retention: The normal process of your mind deciding which memories to commit to long term memory is conscious for Ayanokouji due to a mutation, which allowed him to even keep memories of himself as infant. Thus he can selectively choose what to commit to memory manually.
• Not Perfect: His information recall for things he commits to memory is not 100% perfect, he does extremely rarely forget (trivial) information he saw and recalled previously.

TLDR: Beyond exceptional memory, but not 100% perfect.

3. General Intelligence:

• Chess: Despite specializing in Japanese chess and not classical (V7.5), he matches Arisu in classical, something stated verbatim by Ayanokouji himself; Arisu is further stated as surpassing professional chess players. His skill level can be estimated as International Master (lowball) to mid-high Grandmaster (fair estimate). we can't be certain here, but that's where the evidence points.
• Mental Arithmetic: Casually surpasses the real-life world record for flash mental arithmetic.
• Foresight: He does have this, but this isn't really extraordinary genius level. An extraordinary genius like Dazai runs circles around him in this department. And Ayanokouji fails to anticipate a major event as recently as Y2V12.
• Creative Ability: Doesn't have the ability to create original works. As an example, in Y2V10, despite exceptional painting skills, he cannot draw from imagination or create original paintings.

Having established that, let's look at the criteria for Extraordinary Genius:

"Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science"
This part can be taken as true

"Vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits."
In Academics, it's more akin that Ayanokouji is at the upper human limits in almost all domains and fields. He's an incomprehensible knowledge sponge.

In General Intelligence, his Memory, Learning Ability and Visualization abilities vastly surpass upper human limits. Furthermore, his processing speed / working memory are roughly slightly above upper human limits.

So, it can be said that in certain pure cognitive categories this claim is true. However, I'd caution this would also be True to L (Death Note) / Patrick Jane / Baku and many others if that’s the standard for extraordinary genius.

"Capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology"
Absolutely not. He practically can't create anything. He might possess the knowledge to do it and the specs to accomplish it, but he never learned how to synthesize new information or knowledge.

“I thought I could create something on impulse, but it didn't turn out that way.
In the White Room, I learned numerous skills to enhance my aptitude.
Among these was sketching, which I wasn't bad at.
However, the process of thinking and creating on my own was not part of the curriculum.
I stared at the blank sketchbook.
After a while, I closed the silver case.”

"Executing complex strategies even under high pressure"
This part can be taken as true.

"Outperforming supercomputers"
Extremely flimsy and weak evidence of this. he made a better chess move than the best one chess professionals using an engine that ran on a machine (shown to be a laptop in the anime) came up with. The context of what this actually means (discussed above) does not equate this to outperforming a supercomputer.

He added 15 6-digit numbers in 1.6s. A supercomputer does trillions a second.

"Accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations."
What Ayanokouji does is more akin to anticipating and preparing countermeasures for different possibilities.

Whether or not that's extraordinary genius, I leave to you.

 

[Deidalius]

Very specifically there are two sources to this:

1) a youtube slideshow video, which claimed he beat a supercomputer at 6, this is false. no mention of this exists in volume 0 whatsoever, in fact chess is barely mentioned.

2) during his match with Arisu Sakayanagi, who’s roughly equal to him in chess (according to both Sakayanagi and Kouji), the following is stated:

“He was planning to use a different move, at the time. An even better move than the best one we could’ve come up with. I had a significant number of personnel and even a dedicated machine in place, and we were still forced into making an extremely difficult decision.”

Excerpt From Classroom of the Elite Vol. 11

This has been a long cause of misinformation, with some people going as far that Ayanokouji out-computed a super computer. This is false, “making a better move than an engine” has been done before because engines evaluate moves differently than we do.

Lets also tackle the “Perfect Memory” : hyperbole and blatantly false, in fact just in the most recent volume, Ayanokouji forgot about the March class points from a year ago. Stating he forgot the exact amount (318 / 377) and remembering it as “around 350”. This is a piece of information he sees in Volume 11 and recalls in Volume 11.5.

Now lets circle back to what Ayanokouji does have :

- Academics :
- Math : [LN V0] he was doing AM-GM problems at 5. [Anime] he was proving e is irrational using Taylor expansion and a proof by contradiction at 6. [LN Y2V1] and he was solving graduate level math problems as a small child.
- Generally : The domains the WR covered were diverse, econ / polici / psychology / etc. by the time he was 10+ professors were struggling to teach him, since he had already surpassed many of them. The knowledge he possesses is stated as being several fold what one possesses in a lifetime.

- Memory : a lack of infantile amnesia and exceptionally well organized and managed memory. To the point he can select which memories to remember and which ones to discard, and to purposefully forget things that normally would be impossible to forget (someone you lived with for half your life). He still has ridiculous memory though given his academics. But “perfect” is hyperbole.

- General intelligence :
- Chess : despite specializing in Japanese chess [LN V7.5] and not classical chess, he’s able to match Arisu who’s stated to be better than professional chess players, he’s also shown to make a better move than an engine. So one can say he’s IM as a lowball and mid-high GM most likely.

- Flash mental arithmetic : casually exceeded real life world record

- “seeing ahead” : he does this, but extraordinary genius is more akin to precog to an extent. Every smart character possesses this to an extent, and even Ayanokoji has failed to anticipate moves.


The problem with putting someone like Kouji as an extraordinary genius is I’d argue he isn’t actually more of a genius than say, L (death note).

Wow, you're right, I have been misinformed then. In that case, I don't think Ayanokouji is an extraordinary genius, at least with that evidence.

 

[Phoenks]

Anyway this thread is getting pretty lengthy, hoping to wrap this up. Don't know what staff I should call though. Actually, I think I already have 2 staff votes, don't I?

Hm

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Very specifically there are two sources to this:

1) A youtube slideshow video, which claimed he beat a supercomputer at 6, this is false. no mention of this exists in volume 0 whatsoever, in fact chess is barely mentioned.

2) During his match with Arisu Sakayanagi, who’s roughly equal to him in chess (according to both Sakayanagi and Kouji), the following is stated:

“He was planning to use a different move, at the time. An even better move than the best one we could’ve come up with. I had a significant number of personnel and even a dedicated machine in place, and we were still forced into making an extremely difficult decision.”

Excerpt From Classroom of the Elite Vol. 11

This has been a long cause of misinformation, with some people going as far that Ayanokouji out-computed a super computer. This is false, “making a better move than an engine on a machine” has been done before because engines evaluate moves differently than we do.

Lets also tackle the “Perfect Memory” : hyperbole and blatantly false, in fact just in the most recent volume, Ayanokouji forgot about the March class points from a year ago. Stating he forgot the exact amount (318 / 377) and remembering it as “around 350”. This is a piece of information he sees in Volume 11 and recalls in Volume 11.5.

Now lets circle back to what Ayanokouji DOES have :

- Academics :

- Math : HS Olympid math at 5, undergrad math at 6 and graduate level math at 7+

- Generally : The domains the WR covered were diverse, non inclusively including Japanese / English / Literature / Economics/ History / Social Studies / Mathmatics / Biology Physics / Chemistry.

- By the time he was 10+ professors were struggling to teach him, since he had already surpassed many of them. The knowledge he possesses is stated as being several fold what one possesses in a lifetime. and the WR reached their limit before he did.


- TLDR : College professor level knowledge in dozens of domains. Virtually limitless in knowledge.

- Memory :

- a lack of infantile amnesia and exceptionally well organized and managed memory. To the point he can select which memories to remember and which ones to discard, and to purposefully forget things that normally would be impossible to forget (someone you lived with for half your life). He still has ridiculous memory though given his academics. But “perfect” is hyperbole.

- TLDR : Beyond exceptional memory. Though it’s not 100% perfect.

- General intelligence :

- Chess : despite specializing in Japanese chess [LN V7.5] and not classical chess, he’s able to match Arisu who’s stated to be better than professional chess players, he’s also shown to make a better move than an engine. So one can say he’s IM as a lowball and mid-high GM as a fair estimate.

- Flash mental arithmetic : he casually exceeded the real life world record.

- “seeing ahead” : he does this, but extraordinary genius is more akin to precog to an extent. Every smart character possesses this to an extent, and Ayanokouji’s doesn’t reach Dazai’s foresight for example.


- Ability to create : he is completely incapable of this. Synthesizing new knowledge isn’t something he knows how to do. To the point that despite being an exceptional painter, he’s incapable of drawing anything out of his mind or creating an original painting.

- TLDR : Sky high general intelligence. Within a ballpark to L. Reliably can’t create new knowledge. the evidence to him outsmarting a supercomputer is flimsy at best.


The problem with putting someone like Kouji as an extraordinary genius is I’d argue he isn’t actually more of a genius than say, L (death note). He’s no rick.

Honestly I'd say this changes my mind as well. He's highly intelligent, definetly peak human level intellect, but none of these feats scream "Extraordinary Genius" to me, just very very high Genius.

And thank you for mentioning the chess stuff, he at most has around a 2400 - 2600 ELO. Definetly impressive but not superhuman. Magnus Carlson still stomps in a chess game even while drunk

 

[XxZetsuxX]

In the E.G description, It says you need to be an expert at various fields

Koji at age 5 learned and mastered liberal arts which contains all of these



Not only that but he learned way more stuff than these including martial arts

 

[Phoenks]

In the E.G description, It says you need to be an expert at various fields

Koji at age 5 learned and mastered liberal arts which contains all of these



Not only that but he learned way more stuff than these including martial arts

Sounds like you have another 5 pages to read up on before commenting!

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

In the E.G description, It says you need to be an expert at various fields

Koji at age 5 learned and mastered liberal arts which contains all of these



Not only that but he learned way more stuff than these including martial arts

Liberal arts is not considered a hard degree because you really don't go that in-depth

The whole point of liberal arts is that it's for people who don't know what they want to study, so it gives them a little taste of everything. Actually majoring in chemistry/biology/whatever will give you a far deeper understanding of the thing you're learning about

If you have proof of him mastering every single thing there, then yeah, that's something. But you just said he "mastered liberal arts". What does that even mean? Does he have PhD level knowledge in every single subject? Is he as smart as a libaral arts bachlors graduate?

If you sent the scan we can probably figure that out. If he is flat out PhD level intelligent in all of that, then sure, we're back to Extraordinary Genius. If not, then again, just high genius

 

[wwereymy235]

(disclaimer: I used Gemini to fix shit formatting)

Let's debunk some myths related to the chess game:
Myth 1: Defeating a Supercomputer at Age 6

Source: YouTube slideshow video.

Reality: False. This claim is completely unsubstantiated. Volume 0, which has Ayanokouji's childhood, makes no mention of this event. Chess is barely discussed in volume 0.

Myth 2: Out Computing a Supercomputer in Chess

Source: Classroom of the Elite Vol. 11, during his chess match with Arisu Sakayanagi.

Quote: "He was planning to use a different move, at the time. An even better move than the best one we could’ve come up with. I had a significant number of personnel and even a dedicated machine in place, and we were still forced into making an extremely difficult decision.” - Tsukishiro (talking to Arisu and Ayanokouji)

Reality: Misinterpreted/exaggerated. While he made a move deemed superior to the engine's suggestion, this doesn't equate to out computing a supercomputer (it's not even a supercomputer, it's stated as a machine in V11 and shown as a laptop in the anime). Human players (2700+ ELO) have done this in real life. when this usually happens, the human moves are not necessarily "superior" to the top engine recommendations in an absolute sense. Rather, they are equally strong alternatives with more practical difficulties for human opponents

Myth 3: Perfect Memory

Source: Volume 0. based on Ayanokouji getting a perfect score in a hidden implicit memory test and based on his ability to recall events in his first 3 years of life.

Reality: False. Year 2 Volume 12 directly contradicts this. Ayanokouji forgets the exact March class points from a year prior (318/377), recalling it as "around 350". Not only does Ayanokouji himself state he forgot this, but it's also something he saw in Vol 11 and recalled in Vol 11.5. He does forget things, even if rarely.

Ayanokouji's Actual Abilities:

1. Academics:

• Math: High School Olympiad math at 5, undergraduate math at 6, and graduate-level math at 7+.
• General Knowledge: βeta curriculum covered (non-inclusive) Japanese, English, Literature, Economics, History, Social Studies, Psychology, Philosophy, Mathematics, Biology, Physics, Chemistry, Painting, Music, etc. We can safely say, he has PHD level knowledge in practically all of this.
• Advanced Learning: Surpassed many professors by age 10, literally stated to have knowledge exceeding a typical lifetime's worth many times over.

TLDR: Possesses college professor-level knowledge in numerous domains. Virtually limitless in acquired knowledge.

2. Memory:

• Exceptional Retention: Lacks infantile amnesia. Can selectively choose what to commit to memory manually, even purposefully completely forgetting people he lived with for more than half his life. Furthermore, he's at the point he can state that he isn't missing any memories.
• Not Perfect: His memory is not 100% perfect, he does forget information he saw and recalled previously.

TLDR: Beyond exceptional memory, but not 100% perfect.

3. General Intelligence:

• Chess: Despite specializing in Japanese chess and not classical (V7.5), he matches Arisu in classical, something stated verbatim by Ayanokouji himself; Arisu is further stated as surpassing professional chess players. His skill level can be estimated as International Master (lowball) to mid-high Grandmaster (fair estimate). we can't be certain here, but that's where the evidence points.
• Mental Arithmetic: Casually surpasses the real-life world record for flash mental arithmetic.
• Foresight: He does have this, but this isn't really extraordinary genius level. An extraordinary genius like Dazai runs circles around him in this department. And Ayanokouji fails to anticipate a major event as recently as Y2V12.
• Creative Ability: Doesn't have the ability to synthesize new knowledge or create original works. As an example, in Y2V10, despite exceptional painting skills, he cannot draw from imagination or create original paintings.

Having established that, let's look at the criteria for Extraordinary Genius:

"Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science"
This part can be taken as true

"Vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits."
it's more akin that Ayanokouji is at the upper human limits in almost all domains and fields. He's an incomprehensible knowledge sponge.

"Capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology"
Absolutely not. He practically can't create anything.

"Executing complex strategies even under high pressure"
This part can be taken as true.

"Outperforming supercomputers"
Extremely flimsy and weak evidence of this. he made a better chess move than the best one chess professionals using an engine that ran on a machine (shown to be a laptop in the anime) came up with.

"Accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations."
What Ayanokouji does is more akin to anticipating and preparing countermeasures for different possibilities.

Whether or not that's extraordinary genius, I leave to you.

Umm actually

Ayanokoji is an unreliable narrator. He’s bullshitting about forgetting the class points. Just like me frfr.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Magnus Carlson still stomps in a chess game even while drunk

W

 

[Dinozxd]

Can we also talk about Koji's Combat Intelligence as well, cuz he's listed to be E.G there as well...

Learned many martial arts as a 4 year old.[21][22] Quickly developed past Shiro completely in just back to back 3 matches and never lost to him again up until 9 years old, No matter which fighting style they used.[23] Fought adult fighters since there was no more white room students who were stated to be professional fighters in their areas.[24] He has a perfect win record against professional fighters since he was a child.[25] He is constantly developing a growth rate far higher than any other students.[26] Defeated 6 fighters who were implied to be stronger than Tsukishiro who is an assassin and Shiba who is a white room instructor.[27] Shiro said that for every brawl he had with Ayanokouji, He used to win a few first matches against Ayanokouji but Ayanokouji never lost afterwards, Despite both being trained in the same facility and continuously.[28] It was noted by a young Arisu Sakayanagi that it is due to his "superior DNA", he adapted to the White Room training beta curriculum harsh training.[29] Fought roughly more than 5000 battles in the span of 5 years[note 1])

These are his Combat Intelligence feats according to the profile. Does anyone see any EG combat feats here?

Learned many martial arts as a 4 year old.[21][22]

The scans just state that they just started learning "many" (more like three, but writing "many" on the profile makes him look better ig) martial arts. Practicing more than one martial art for a 4 year old is really impressive, though I don't see EG intelligence there.

Quickly developed past Shiro completely in just back to back 3 matches and never lost to him again up until 9 years old, No matter which fighting style they used.[23]

The scan for this is dead. Though I don't see why this is EG intelligence.

Fought adult fighters since there was no more white room students who were stated to be professional fighters in their areas.[24]

Now again, if these adults in question aren't a group of Batman or something, I don't see how this makes him an EG combatant. There aren't even any "professional fighters" stated in the scan, they are just stated to be "instructors". Martial art instructors aren't pro martial artists. They are just martial artists.

He has a perfect win record against professional fighters since he was a child.[25]

For one, the character in the scan themselves state that his physical abilities are really good, which implies that the wins he got were heavily carried by his physical abilities, not skills. There aren't even any statement about his skill in the scan, the word "skill" isn't even written.

Physically stomping people does not scale you to their skill level.

He is constantly developing a growth rate far higher than any other students.[26]

The scan for this is dead, but I don't see EG combat intelligence here going by the definition.

Defeated 6 fighters who were implied to be stronger than Tsukishiro who is an assassin and Shiba who is a white room instructor.[27]

Another feat of Ayanokouji blitzing and one shotting some guys. How is this skill?

Most of the scene is cut from the scans linked to the profile for some reason, but as far as I remember, Ayanokouji straight up uses his side advantage and his baton to strike each of these guys' pressure points to win the fight. How is a common Pressure Point feat get him EG combat intelligence? To add, these guys weren't even stated to be martial artists or something, Ayanokouji himself points out how different they are compared to the instructors, who are the actual martial artists.

Shiro said that for every brawl he had with Ayanokouji, He used to win a few first matches against Ayanokouji but Ayanokouji never lost afterwards, Despite both being trained in the same facility and continuously.[28]

Good Accelerated Development feat, though I don't see how this grants him EG intelligence.

It was noted by a young Arisu Sakayanagi that it is due to his "superior DNA", he adapted to the White Room training beta curriculum harsh training.[29]

How is this even related to skill...

Fought roughly more than 5000 battles in the span of 5 years[note 1])

This one's too vauge to even give a rating to.


In conclusion, I think Koji should get a Genius rating in combat intelligence. EG is straight up bs imo.

 

[Tomfer]

In conclusion, I think Koji should get a Genius rating in combat intelligence. EG is straight up bs imo.

I agree with this, his EG combat is bs.

 

[Hixkaryana]

(disclaimer: I used Gemini to fix shit formatting)

Let's debunk some myths related to the chess game:
Myth 1: Defeating a Supercomputer at Age 6

Source: YouTube slideshow video.

Reality: False. This claim is completely unsubstantiated. Volume 0, which has Ayanokouji's childhood, makes no mention of this event. Chess is barely discussed in volume 0.

Myth 2: Out Computing a Supercomputer in Chess

Source: Classroom of the Elite Vol. 11, during his chess match with Arisu Sakayanagi.

Quote: "He was planning to use a different move, at the time. An even better move than the best one we could’ve come up with. I had a significant number of personnel and even a dedicated machine in place, and we were still forced into making an extremely difficult decision.” - Tsukishiro (talking to Arisu and Ayanokouji)

Reality: Misinterpreted/exaggerated. While he made a move deemed superior to the engine's suggestion, this doesn't equate to out computing a supercomputer (it's not even a supercomputer, it's stated as a machine in V11 and shown as a laptop in the anime). Human players (2700+ ELO) have done this in real life. when this usually happens, the human moves are not necessarily "superior" to the top engine recommendations in an absolute sense. Rather, they are equally strong alternatives with more practical difficulties for human opponents

Myth 3: Perfect Memory

Source: Volume 0. based on Ayanokouji getting a perfect score in a hidden implicit memory test and based on his ability to recall events in his first 3 years of life.

Reality: False. Year 2 Volume 12 directly contradicts this. Ayanokouji forgets the exact March class points from a year prior (318/377), recalling it as "around 350". Not only does Ayanokouji himself state he forgot this, but it's also something he saw in Vol 11 and recalled in Vol 11.5. He does forget things, even if rarely.

Myth 4: Anime Chess Moves

Reality: Mixed. What happened very specifically is that an end game position is described in the LN, and it's described narratively and without detail, but it's the action climax of the battle. The anime thus worked backwards from an end position that fit and made nonsensical filler moves to stretch and to eventually get there. The narrative of the end game position was:

1. Arisu and Ayanokouji are perfectly matched. With Ayanokouji stating that if he makes one mistake, he will instantly lose.
2. Arisu makes a move; Ayanokouji here states that Arisu's main goal is NOT winning but drawing out his full skill. In the anime, this is shown as her making a risky move, where she losses her advantage if Ayanokouji spots a difficult queen sacrifice but is guaranteed to win if he doesn't.
3. Ayanokouji finds the move that turns the game around and makes the game winning in his favor.
4. Tsukishiro switches the move, thus Ayanokouji losses.

The anime end game position is narratively consistent with all of this and with the LN narrative. The starter moves are nonsensical because they worked backwards.

Ayanokouji's Actual Abilities:

1. Academics:

• Math: High School Olympiad math at 5, undergraduate math at 6, and graduate-level math at 7+.
• General Knowledge: βeta curriculum covered (non-inclusive) Japanese, English, Literature, Economics, History, Social Studies, Psychology, Philosophy, Mathematics, Biology, Physics, Chemistry, Painting, Music, etc. We can safely say, he has PHD level knowledge in practically all of this.
• Advanced Learning: Surpassed many professors by age 10, literally stated to have knowledge exceeding a typical lifetime's worth many times over.

TLDR: Possesses college professor-level knowledge in numerous domains. Virtually limitless in acquired knowledge.

2. Memory:

• Exceptional Retention: Lacks infantile amnesia. Can selectively choose what to commit to memory manually, even purposefully completely forgetting people he lived with for more than half his life. Furthermore, he's at the point he can state that he isn't missing any memories.
• Not Perfect: His memory is not 100% perfect, he does forget information he saw and recalled previously.

TLDR: Beyond exceptional memory, but not 100% perfect.

3. General Intelligence:

• Chess: Despite specializing in Japanese chess and not classical (V7.5), he matches Arisu in classical, something stated verbatim by Ayanokouji himself; Arisu is further stated as surpassing professional chess players. His skill level can be estimated as International Master (lowball) to mid-high Grandmaster (fair estimate). we can't be certain here, but that's where the evidence points.
• Mental Arithmetic: Casually surpasses the real-life world record for flash mental arithmetic.
• Foresight: He does have this, but this isn't really extraordinary genius level. An extraordinary genius like Dazai runs circles around him in this department. And Ayanokouji fails to anticipate a major event as recently as Y2V12.
• Creative Ability: Doesn't have the ability to synthesize new knowledge or create original works. As an example, in Y2V10, despite exceptional painting skills, he cannot draw from imagination or create original paintings.

Having established that, let's look at the criteria for Extraordinary Genius:

"Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science"
This part can be taken as true

"Vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits."

In Academics, it's more akin that Ayanokouji is at the upper human limits in almost all domains and fields. He's an incomprehensible knowledge sponge.

In General Intelligence, his Memory, Learning Ability and Visualization abilities vastly surpass upper human limits. Furthermore, his processing speed / working memory are roughly slightly above upper human limits.
So, it can be said that in IQ this claim is true. However, I'd caution this would also be True to L (Death Note) and many others.

"Capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology"
Absolutely not. He practically can't create anything.

"Executing complex strategies even under high pressure"
This part can be taken as true.

"Outperforming supercomputers"
Extremely flimsy and weak evidence of this. he made a better chess move than the best one chess professionals using an engine that ran on a machine (shown to be a laptop in the anime) came up with. The context of what this actually means (discussed above) does not equate this to outperforming a supercomputer.

He added 15 6-digit numbers in 1.6s. A supercomputer does trillions a second.

"Accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations."
What Ayanokouji does is more akin to anticipating and preparing countermeasures for different possibilities.

Whether or not that's extraordinary genius, I leave to you.

This is the only post that was clear enough to settle whether or not he's an EG (which he is not).

 

[MCH2]

Learned many martial arts as a 4-year-old:
Misleading. they started learning Judo at 3 and Karate at 4. but it's not learned but started learning. Against adults, this "training" amounted to the children being nothing more than sandbags at 3-4.

it'd be better to state: Started his martial arts training at 3. By the age of 9, he learned many different martial arts disciplines to the point of greatly surpassing his professional instructors.

Quickly developed past Shiro completely in just 3 matches and never lost to him again up until 9 years old, no matter which fighting style they used.
True and Shirou is specifically one of the greatest natural born geniuses in-verse.

Fought adult fighters since there was no more white room students who were stated to be professional fighters in their areas.
No. He fought Yakuza in a 6 vs 1 fight because by 9, Ayanokouji instantly beat all his martial arts master's the moment Shiro dropped out. this was the end of his martial arts training more or less. But Ayanokouji himself monologues that Shirou wasn't an easy fight like the half-baked adults (WR MA instructors). A helpful example is that. Ayanokouji scales in striking strength to Shiba, but he is vastly superior in a fight due to his skill.

He has a perfect win record against professional fighters since he was a child.
Accurate but use OTL language. the language was that he puts adults to shame in physical ability and that in a no-holds barred fight with a professional fighter, he'd win instantly. this was true since Kouji was ~8.

Defeated 6 fighters who were implied to be stronger than Tsukishiro who is an assassin and Shiba who is a white room instructor.
MISINFORMATION. he beat 6 Yakuza in a 6 vs 1 match at 10. there is no implication whatsoever that they scale to Shiba and Tsukishiro. Both of whom are implied to be able to defeat him in a 2 vs 1 if they went all out (when he's 16-17, not when he's 10) ....

Shiro said that for every brawl he had with Ayanokouji, He used to win a few first matches against Ayanokouji, but Ayanokouji never lost afterwards, despite both being trained in the same facility and continuously.
Shiro reached the conclusion that he can't surpass Ayanokouji no matter what if he remained in the whiteroom. Similarly, Ayanokouji states he can't lose to someone who learnt from the same mistakes as him.

It was noted by a young Arisu Sakayanagi that it is due to his "superior DNA", he adapted to the White Room training beta curriculum harsh training
taking complete liberties here and misinterpreting what she said, she's stating her own world view and expectation; that those with superior DNA will survive till the end. Neither she nor her father know about the Beta Curriculum. There's a reason they are playing chess when they came, as Ayanokouji's father asked to keep it mild while they were there.

 

[Worthless]

Yada

This is going to be a battle of downplaying vs exaggerating. But your inability to stop bringing up the character you love makes me think you’re going to debate Thehuntsman and Rogger while thinking of L

 

[Remus1998]

In conclusion, I think Koji should get a Genius rating in combat intelligence. EG is straight up bs imo.

Never understood how he got EG BIQ

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

So quick question: Would this CRT remove any of his current matches? The only 2 I can think of is the matches with Light & L, but since his combat IQ might be getting nerfed too, would that discredit any other wins/losses/incons he currently has?

 

[MCH2]

This is going to be a battle of downplaying vs exaggerating. But your inability to stop bringing up the character you love makes me think you’re going to debate Thehuntsman and Rogger while thinking of L

That’s untrue and aims to discredit me. I am not even a DN fan, I only brought up L as an example when relevant. And I consider L a very relevant example since he’s in roughly the same ballpark as Ayanokouji.

My assessment of Ayanokouji is by no means downplaying him. He’s simply not Shiro/Sora, Dazai/Fyodor, etc. He’s much more comparable to L / Patrick Jane / etc. All of whom, are geniuses.

If you want to give him Extraordinary genius due to his broken knowledge and learning ability, that’s fine.

But if that’s the standard than Patrick Jane and L would both qualify as they also possess certain cognitive aspects that are well beyond human limits.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Bringing NGNL here is overkill imo. They are way beyond EG. Being able to calculate all possible chess combinations is not something most EG's can hope to achieve. But yes, I agree that based on the feats, Ayanokoji seems to be in the genius ballpark.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Koji's E.G combat comes from this;

Classroom Of The Elite - Ayanokouji's BIQ upgrade + Minor fix and a minor ability addition

This CRT is also quite simple, I believe this CRT should upgrade Ayanokouji to E.G fighter due to his immense feats and the quality of them so let's start shall we?; For starters, Let's start with his White Room life Small Addition; Instinctive Reaction - (Ayanokoji's ability to...

vsbattles.com

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Koji's E.G combat comes from this;

Classroom Of The Elite - Ayanokouji's BIQ upgrade + Minor fix and a minor ability addition

This CRT is also quite simple, I believe this CRT should upgrade Ayanokouji to E.G fighter due to his immense feats and the quality of them so let's start shall we?; For starters, Let's start with his White Room life Small Addition; Instinctive Reaction - (Ayanokoji's ability to...

vsbattles.com

Cool, and a majority of that was debunked with Dino's post

 

[Worthless]

That’s untrue and aims to discredit me.

My aim wasn't to discredit you, nor was I saying you were downplaying him. I'm saying the argument you'll have with Rogger or Huntsman will probably going to be"It's impressive" and "it's not impressive." I do feel like it's a strong word but it's not serious

I am not even a DN fan,

Your profile says otherwise?

 

[HelloThere1089]

Your profile says otherwise?

That's not Light Yagami on his pfp bub.

 

[MCH2]

My aim wasn't to discredit you, nor was I saying you were downplaying him. I'm saying the argument you'll have with Rogger or Huntsman will probably going to be"It's impressive" and "it's not impressive." I do feel like it's a strong word but it's not serious

Your profile says otherwise?

Cheers.

Sorry to break it to you but that’s Akiyama from Liar’s game (manga). That’s not Light Yagami.

 

[Worthless]

Cheers.

Sorry to break it to you but that’s Akiyama from Liar’s game (manga). That’s not Light Yagami.

Lol alright

 

[Dinozxd]

Koji's E.G combat comes from this;

Classroom Of The Elite - Ayanokouji's BIQ upgrade + Minor fix and a minor ability addition

This CRT is also quite simple, I believe this CRT should upgrade Ayanokouji to E.G fighter due to his immense feats and the quality of them so let's start shall we?; For starters, Let's start with his White Room life Small Addition; Instinctive Reaction - (Ayanokoji's ability to...

vsbattles.com

The only stuff I haven't mentioned on my stuff are probably these;

Ayanokouji trained Jeet Kune Do, Boxing, Karate, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Aikido, Taijutsu and Judo in the WR

Jeet Kune Do and Taijutsu is a composite martial arts, Meaning Ayanokouji knows more than 20 martial arts;
Wing Chun, Tai Chi, taekwondo, boxing, fencing and jujutsu, fencing, arnis, judo, Wrestling, Mixed Martial Arts, Emerson Combat System, Savate and Wei Kuen Do for Jeet Kune do
Gendai Goshin Jutsu, Yamabujin Goshin-Jutsu, Fuji Ryu Goshindo JiuJitsu, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Kenpo for Taijtusu
With said martial arts he was against professional fighters and masters in their own field

So first of all, the scan does not mention Taijutsu, Aikido, BJJ nor Karate at all. As far as I know though, Koji does start learning Karate in the WR, so that one is legit. The three aren't even menrioned though.

Like Mixed Martial Artists, you do not have to master every sub martial art of a composite martial art to become a pro at it. So the chances of Ayanokouji actually going aganist the masters of all of those sub martial arts is very unlikely. That's like outstriking a pro MMA fighter and saying you are a pro wrestler just because Wrestling is a part of MMA.

 

[MCH2]

(disclaimer: I used Gemini to fix shit formatting)

………….

Whether or not that's extraordinary genius, I leave to you.

Also to be clear, the point of this post was to clarify for non COTE fans the abilities of Ayanokouji and to dispel misconceptions. And to help present and compile information.

Personally, I am not sure if he is a Genius or Extraordinary genius. He has advanced knowledge in many fields (PHD or beyond). And he vastly surpasses normal humans in certain cognitive domains (most notably memory and learning ability); But in many domains listed in the definition(strategic complexity, predicting the future, etc), an EG like Dazai runs circles around him. Similarly, many EG are capable of creating scifi level technology. He hasn’t shown anything to show he can.

If anything, the particularly notable thing about him is how he at least matches the upper human limit in practically everything.

This is more of a definition thing now that Ayanokouji’s abilities have been summarized and presented.

The only stuff I haven't mentioned on my stuff are probably these;

So first of all, the scan does not mention Taijutsu, Aikido, BJJ nor Karate at all. As far as I know though, Koji does start learning Karate in the WR, so that one is legit. The three aren't even menrioned though.

Like Mixed Martial Artists, you do not have to master every sub martial art of a composite martial art to become a pro at it. So the chances of Ayanokouji actually going aganist the masters of all of those sub martial arts is very unlikely. That's like outstriking a pro MMA fighter and saying you are a pro wrestler just because Wrestling is a part of MMA.

A lot of the martial arts come from anime martial arts moves he used vs Ryuen. information about Ayanokouji’s abilities are scattered. They don’t come from a single source or from a single volume. They’ve been compiled through numerous revisions, but Ayanokouji’s WR martial arts training was most certainly extremely broad.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

So first of all, the scan does not mention Taijutsu, Aikido, BJJ nor Karate at all. As far as I know though, Koji does start learning Karate in the WR, so that one is legit. The three aren't even menrioned though.

You should probably take a look at the profile because Aikido and Taijutsu are there

As for BJJ, I made a CRT for that which explains why Koji should have that which you also should take a look

Like Mixed Martial Artists, you do not have to master every sub martial art of a composite martial art to become a pro at it. So the chances of Ayanokouji actually going aganist the masters of all of those sub martial arts is very unlikely. That's like outstriking a pro MMA fighter and saying you are a pro wrestler just because Wrestling is a part of MMA.

Jeet Kune Do is legit a combinations of all the martial arts mentioned

It is an amalgamation which means Koji can do all of the moves that Jeet Kune Do offers

 

[Dinozxd]

A lot of the martial arts come from anime martial arts moves he used vs Ryuen. information about Ayanokouji’s abilities are scattered. They don’t come from a single source or from a single volume

Well I'm looking at his profile (specifically his Notable Attacks/Techniques section) and some of this martial arts (Taijutsu, BJJ, Aikido) are just stuff he uses once very briefly without any sign of having mastered them whatsoever. Only martial arts he has canonically mastered should be Jeet Kune Do, Judo, Boxing and Karate, while we can assume he is above average at least on others.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Cool, and a majority of that was debunked with Dino's post

Giving an opinion is not debunking anything, Just saying

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Well I'm looking at his profile (specifically his Notable Attacks/Techniques section) and some of this martial arts (Taijutsu, BJJ, Aikido) are just stuff he uses once very briefly without any sign of having mastered them whatsoever. Only martial arts he has canonically mastered should be Jeet Kune Do, Judo, Boxing and Karate, while we can assume he is above average at least on others.

Koji legit trains all his life in the WR

It wouldn't make any sense he is a master at some while beginner level at others when they have a schedule of learning martial arts

This is just headcannon (or downplay) on your part

Also, Doing 1 move and never showing it again doesn't mean he hasn't mastered

It's like me saying if Goku did kamehameha 1 time and never used it again it would mean he didn't mastered yet when his PM legit is copy and mastering on the spot

 

[Tomfer]

Koji's E.G combat comes from this;

Classroom Of The Elite - Ayanokouji's BIQ upgrade + Minor fix and a minor ability addition

This CRT is also quite simple, I believe this CRT should upgrade Ayanokouji to E.G fighter due to his immense feats and the quality of them so let's start shall we?; For starters, Let's start with his White Room life Small Addition; Instinctive Reaction - (Ayanokoji's ability to...

vsbattles.com

Even if you wank all of those feats into supernatural levels, that doesn't pass Genius combat, EG is just wrong on so many levels.

 

[MCH2]

Well I'm looking at his profile (specifically his Notable Attacks/Techniques section) and some of this martial arts (Taijutsu, BJJ, Aikido) are just stuff he uses once very briefly without any sign of having mastered them whatsoever. Only martial arts he has canonically mastered should be Jeet Kune Do, Judo, Boxing and Karate, while we can assume he is above average at least on others.

By 9, he has completely exhausted the Whiteroom martial arts instructors, easily defeating them. It reached the point were they were at an impasse about what to do for his martial arts instruction. His martial arts training was by all intents complete at 10 with his final battle against the Yakuza.

Furthermore, the whiteroom beta curriculum is absolutely not the sort of curriculum to teach something very shallowly or to an average level.