Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

[XxZetsuxX]

Even if you wank all of those feats into supernatural levels, that doesn't pass Genius combat, EG is just wrong on so many levels.

His feats are E.G easily, Not on the high end but it should be at least low end E.G combat IQ

 

[DaReaperMan]

As someone who deals with combat intelligence a lot... that ain't EG combat intelligence.

 

[Dinozxd]

You should probably take a look at the profile because Aikido and Taijutsu are there

I've looked, though again, he uses Aikido and Taijutsu once lmao. There aren't any proof of him mastering them or something. Also for some reason, it's assumed that he is superior to Manabu in Aikido who is a 4th dan. Are there any proof that he is superior to Manabu in this specific martial art or just speculation?

As for BJJ, I made a CRT for that which explains why Koji should have that which you also should take a look

Can you link them?

Jeet Kune Do is legit a combinations of all the martial arts mentioned

It is an amalgamation which means Koji can do all of the moves that Jeet Kune Do offers

This isn't a counter-argument to what i said so my point still stands.

It wouldn't make any sense he is a master at some while beginner level at others when they have a schedule of learning martial arts

This is just headcannon (or downplay) on your part

That's how martial arts training works? A master boxer can't be assumed to be a master kickboxer as well lmao

By 9, he has completely exhausted the Whiteroom martial arts instructors. To the point they were at an impasse about what to do for his martial arts instruction.

Cool..?

His martial arts training was by all intents complete at 10 with his final battle against the Yakuza.

This does not mean he has mastered all of the martial arts he uses. You don't have to be a master at all martial arts to complete your martial art training. Otherwise you can just assume Koji has mastered all of the martial arts in the world lmao

Furthermore, the whiteroom beta curriculum is absolutely not the sort of curriculum to teach something very shallowly or to an average level.

Again this is just speculation.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Giving an opinion is not debunking anything, Just saying

Did you... did you not read the debunk? Dino pretty clearly gives reasons as to why most of that just doesn't apply

The f*ck is your defenition of an opinion?

 

[Tomfer]

His feats are E.G easily, Not on the high end but it should be at least low end E.G combat IQ

No, just no. You wanna know someone who is actually EG in combat? Taskmaster. Taskmaster actually possesse a supernatural level AP and Info analysis that make him learn, quite literally, anything at that exact moment. Something that he uses in combate with extreme mastery. He also ACTUALLY KNOWNS every single martial arts in the entire world, aka, actually being stated in-lore and not something you gotta reach.

And why I gotta bring him up? Because he's the PERFECT example of what you need to be EG in combate. Dude has it all and knows how to use it.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I've looked, though again, he uses Aikido and Taijutsu once lmao. There aren't any proof of him mastering them or something. Also for some reason, it's assumed that he is superior to Manabu in Aikido who is a 4th dan. Are there any proof that he is superior to Manabu in this specific martial art or just speculation?

Every martial art he shows is legit from the WR where he trained and stayed ALL OF HIS ENTIRE LIFE, If he shows any move from martial arts means he knows how to use them at master levels when the WR legit trains them since kids wth

Can you link them?

Classroom Of The Elite - Ayanokouji small upgrade

I believe this is a very simple CRT and will be a short one. It will focus on giving Ayanokouji Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as a martial art and expanding his martial arts knowledge, and also justify the lifting strength of his 'Kid' key. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Reasoning: Ayanokouji trained in the White...

vsbattles.com

This isn't a counter-argument to what i said so my point still stands.

It kinda is

That's how martial arts training works? A master boxer can't be assumed to be a master kickboxer as well lmao

You are ignoring the entire existence of Vol 0 of the LN

I have explained this in the first part

This does not mean he has mastered all of the martial arts he uses. You don't have to be a master at all martial arts to complete your martial art training. Otherwise you can just assume Koji has mastered all of the martial arts in the world lmao

Head cannon on your part

Koji legit defeated professional/masters martial artists who literally taught everything he knows and he also trained said martial arts all of his life in the WR

Again this is just speculation.

Can't believe you said a goverment financed institution who aims to create geniuses and superhumans in all fields, Shallow, Are you kidding me?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Did you... did you not read the debunk? Dino pretty clearly gives reasons as to why most of that just doesn't apply

The f*ck is your defenition of an opinion?

I wouldn't trust him tbh given how he doesn't read anything from COTE aside from fights which he himself said

Dunno if he started reading now though

 

[XxZetsuxX]

No, just no. You wanna know someone who is actually EG in combat? Taskmaster. Taskmaster actually possesse a supernatural level AP and Info analysis that make him learn, quite literally, anything at that exact moment. Something that he uses in combate with extreme mastery. He also ACTUALLY KNOWNS every single martial arts in the entire world, aka, actually being stated in-lore and not something you gotta reach.

And why I gotta bring him up? Because he's the PERFECT example of what you need to be EG in combate. Dude has it all and knows how to use it.

He is a high end or peak E.G

Koji is low end E.G

Pretty simple

 

[MCH2]

@RoggerReggor some misconceptions to correct:

Regarding IQ :
You are misunderstanding mental age IQ with scaled IQ. In mental age, yes Ayanokouji’s IQ is sky high since whiteroom causes accelerated development.

WAIS exams, and the standard, are scaled exams. In those, scoring 300 is impossible. Similarly, a scaled IQ of 190 is much stronger than a mental age IQ of 190. Most of the real life high IQ claims are based on mental age: “I’m as smart at 10 as an average person at 20, thus 200 IQ” and not on “I am 7 standard deviations smarter than the average person”.

Which is more impressive?
“In intelligence, I am one in a billion”
“At 10, I was as smart as an average 19 year old”

Ayanokouji’s opponent isn’t a real life genius, nor is the definition the one we use in real life based on WAIS IQ bands and expanded norms. The definition is the one used in the wiki, both in text and in-practice (how it’s applied).

E.Gs include people like :

Dazai/Fyodor, people who invented and conversed in a made up encrypted language on the spot. With the encryption key being based on every last conversation they had.

Shiro (NGNL), calculating every possible chess position

Iron man / Rick / etc creating ridiculous gadgets and breakthroughs. Time travel, nano tech, warping, etc.

That’s the standard being used here. Now, is it possible to find an extraordinary genius who’s worse than Kouji? I don’t know.

 

[Phoenks]

I've made it clear from the beginning that nothing Ayanokouji's page stated for his combat intellect was even close to E.G levels. Even before hearing that apparently a lot of it is misleading or even downright inflated.

Honestly, you could randomly pick a shounen protagonist and there is a good chance they have more impressive combat intellect feats than Kouji does. Deku, Naruto, Yuji, etc... All of them have significantly better feats yet not even they would be listed as E.G in combat intelligence.

Good examples of what actually qualifies for E.G combat intelligence would be people like Mori Jin (Can instantly learn complicated or even downright magical forms of martial arts that are beyond superhuman in of themselves. Can adapt and rapidly develop counter techniques to other techniques mid-fight to win fights he was previously losing. Can predict people who can predict people who can predict people, etc, etc, etc)


This is not even a really debatable part of the thread. Kouji is just not even close on that front.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

I wouldn't trust him tbh given how he doesn't read anything from COTE aside from fights which he himself said

Dunno if he started reading now though

So your arguement is just...

Nuh uh I don't trust you?

Okay, I no longer trust you on anything COTE related since I suspect you of being biased. Now all of your statements are just opinions.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Let's debunk some myths related to the chess game:

I have a lot of misconceptions and false information you just put out to debunk so I'm going to keep this as short as possible.

Myth 1: Defeating a Supercomputer at Age 6

Source: YouTube slideshow video.

Reality: False. This claim is complete misinformation. Volume 0, which has Ayanokouji's childhood, makes no mention of this event. Chess is barely discussed in volume 0.

Myth 2: Out Computing a Supercomputer in Chess

Source: Classroom of the Elite Vol. 11, during his chess match with Arisu Sakayanagi.

Quote: "He was planning to use a different move, at the time. An even better move than the best one we could’ve come up with. I had a significant number of personnel and even a dedicated machine in place, and we were still forced into making an extremely difficult decision.” - Tsukishiro (talking to Arisu and Ayanokouji)

Reality: Misinterpreted/exaggerated. While he made a move deemed superior to the engine's suggestion, this doesn't equate to out computing a supercomputer (it's not even a supercomputer, it's stated as a machine in V11 and shown as a laptop in the anime). Human players (2700+ ELO) have done this in real life. when this usually happens, the human moves are not necessarily "superior" to the top engine recommendations in an absolute sense. Rather, they are equally strong alternatives with significantly more practical difficulties for human opponents

Myth 1 is correct, there is no mention of a supercomputer at age 6 although you certainly shouldn't be using information from a YT slideshow to scale Ayanokouji at all.

Myth 2: We have discussed this at length in the thread already and your point has already been made. However, your point mentions how moves can be superior for "human opponents" but this betrays a lack of understanding of the circumstances of the chess feat. This wasn't a case of just making a move better than Arisu, but a move that the engine also thought was better. The clear understanding of Tsukishiro saying as such was to point out Ayanokouji made a better move.

Myth 3: Perfect Memory

Source: Volume 0. based on Ayanokouji getting a perfect score in a hidden implicit memory test and based on his ability to recall events in his first 3 years of life.

Reality: False. Year 2 Volume 12 directly contradicts this. Ayanokouji forgets the exact March class points from a year prior (318/377), recalling it as "around 350". Not only does Ayanokouji himself state he forgot this, but it's also something he saw in Vol 11 and recalled in Vol 11.5. He does forget things, even if rarely..

This is pure nonsense on your part and since I have no idea how you came to such a ridiculous conclusion on this. It has been shown before that Ayanokouji automatically retains information and can choose whether to recall information or not. His perfect memory isn't debatable in whether it exists, and this statement aligns with his other instances of showing a lack on interest in recalling certain information. Please don't spread misinformation like this anymore.

Myth 4: Anime Chess Moves

Reality: Mixed. What happened very specifically is that an end game position is described in the LN, and it's described narratively and without detail, but it's the action climax of the battle. The anime thus worked backwards from an end position that fit and made nonsensical filler moves to stretch the game and to eventually get to the endgame position. The narrative of the endgame position was:

1. Arisu and Ayanokouji are perfectly matched. With Ayanokouji stating that if he makes one mistake, he will instantly lose.
2. Arisu makes a move; Ayanokouji here states that Arisu's main goal is NOT winning but drawing out his full skill. In the anime, this is shown as her making a risky move, where she losses her advantage if Ayanokouji spots a difficult queen sacrifice but is guaranteed to win if he doesn't.
3. Ayanokouji finds the move that turns the game around and makes the game winning in his favor.
4. Tsukishiro switches the move, thus Ayanokouji losses.

The anime end game position is narratively consistent with all of this and with the LN narrative. The anime's starter moves are nonsensical because they worked backwards. This isn't unique to COTE, Lelouch from Code Geass has many examples of this.

This has been dismissed multiple times in this thread already and the anime moves can't be used to scale LN Koji's intelligence due to the differences in the canon material. I know you know this since we have talked about this before so I am not sure why you backtracked on this.

Ayanokouji's Actual Abilities:

1. Academics:

TLDR: Possesses college professor-level knowledge in numerous domains. Virtually limitless in acquired knowledge.

2. Memory:
Not Perfect: His information recall for things he commits to memory is not 100% perfect, he does rarely forget (trivial) information he saw and recalled previously.
TLDR: Beyond exceptional memory, but not 100% perfect.

3. General Intelligence:

• Chess: Despite specializing in Japanese chess and not classical (V7.5), he matches Arisu in classical, something stated verbatim by Ayanokouji himself; Arisu is further stated as surpassing professional chess players. His skill level can be estimated as International Master (lowball) to mid-high Grandmaster (fair estimate). we can't be certain here, but that's where the evidence points.
• Mental Arithmetic: Casually surpasses the real-life world record for flash mental arithmetic.
• Foresight: He does have this, but this isn't really extraordinary genius level. An extraordinary genius like Dazai runs circles around him in this department. And Ayanokouji fails to anticipate a major event as recently as Y2V12.
• Creative Ability: Doesn't have the ability to synthesize new knowledge or create original works. As an example, in Y2V10, despite exceptional painting skills, he cannot draw from imagination or create original paintings.

Academics: I mostly agree, he should be above professor level in numerous domains by surpassing the "world class" instructors in their chosen fields as a child.

Memory: you are flatly incorrect as his memory is perfect.

General Intelligence: You are missing a lot but what you have is accurate. Creative ability is a stretch to say he "can't synthesize new knowledge" but it's true his skills are better at reproducing and evolving skills via his adaptability.

Having established that, let's look at the criteria for Extraordinary Genius:

"Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science"
This part can be taken as true

"Vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits."
In Academics, it's more akin that Ayanokouji is at the upper human limits in almost all domains and fields. He's an incomprehensible knowledge sponge.

In General Intelligence, his Memory, Learning Ability and Visualization abilities vastly surpass upper human limits. Furthermore, his processing speed / working memory are roughly slightly above upper human limits.

So, it can be said that in certain pure cognitive categories this claim is true. However, I'd caution this would also be True to L (Death Note) / Patrick Jane / Baku and many others if that’s the standard for extraordinary genius.

As stated he isn't "at" the human limit of intelligence but vastly above it as I have pointed out in previous posts in this thread. Comparing such general intelligence to L, PJ, or Baku is also laughable. I can't speak to Baku as much but from what I know none of them even come a little bit close to Ayanokouji in raw intelligence so such a claim is blatantly false.

"Capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology"
Absolutely not. He practically can't create anything. He might possess the knowledge to do it and the specs to accomplish it, but he never learned how to synthesize new information or knowledge.

“I thought I could create something on impulse, but it didn't turn out that way.
In the White Room, I learned numerous skills to enhance my aptitude.
Among these was sketching, which I wasn't bad at.
However, the process of thinking and creating on my own was not part of the curriculum.
I stared at the blank sketchbook.
After a while, I closed the silver case.”

"Executing complex strategies even under high pressure"
This part can be taken as true.

"Outperforming supercomputers"
Extremely flimsy and weak evidence of this. he made a better chess move than the best one chess professionals using an engine that ran on a machine (shown to be a laptop in the anime) came up with. The context of what this actually means (discussed above) does not equate this to outperforming a supercomputer.

He added 15 6-digit numbers in 1.6s. A supercomputer does trillions a second.

"Accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations."
What Ayanokouji does is more akin to anticipating and preparing countermeasures for different possibilities.

Whether or not that's extraordinary genius, I leave to you.

Future technology: Agree no feats for it.

Complex Strategies: Agree

Supercomputers: As I also already explained the VSBW definition of this in previous posts and why Ayanokouji fulfils it I disagree.

 

[Tomfer]

He is a high end or peak E.G

Koji is low end E.G

Pretty simple

First: Where you found this EG sprectrum you're talking about? Where does low start and high end finishes? Second: You're not getting it, all of that stuff that Taskmaster has? It's a requirement to enter the EG combat zone. You need to show those off-worldly feats in order to even be considered.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

So essentially it is vague, as I said, and there is no evidence so suggest these subjects are far beyond the peak human knowledge in these areas.

What I provided wasn't vague and was proof of beyond peak human wtf? I gave specific examples of some of the many subjects he studied and compared it to an accepted "peak human" level of William James Sidis and Koji destroyed it. I also provided in verse context which supported the status of beyond peak human as level 6 curriculum was also around WJS level and impossible in verse as the human limit.

I am also under the belief that Ayanokouji's Perfect Memory is > Photographic Memory. I have been saying this since the beginning. This doesn't do you any good though. It just makes it even more beneficial to him in a way that makes his feats of learning information far less impressive.

What you seem to not realize is that nobody in the real world has photographic memory. It's a supernatural ability that doesn't exist, as I've stated and provided scans of earlier in this conversation. If it did exist, humans would 1000% be capable of what Kouji is capable of.

Glad you agree but Reggor and myself have already pointed out why his memory does not detract from his intelligence like you are claiming. While I am not disagreeing how Photographic memory isn't 100% real either, again that doesn't demerit his intelligence feats. Even as an ability which "doesn't exist. Reggor also legit showed scans which disprove your point that his memory is a demerit on his intelligence which was a major point this thread was formed on, as such I believe it calls into question the validity of downgrading Koji from EG using that reasoning since it has been proved wrong.

Ok, so talking about this. So, the entire "Kiyotaka's Learning Ability is due to Memory" argument comes from this single statement, or should I better refer to it as a theory:

Now, to provide the context. This statement/theory is given by Suzukake, the Generation 4 head instructor. Now, the thing about this is that Suzukake has already made a very bad statement by underrating Kiyotaka's emotional intelligence and saying that he didn't know what most people did, but as everyone who read the novel probably knows, Kiyotaka never really showed that he cared, and he was always attentive to others and used to make his own deductions upon people's emotions and even analyzed emotions in V0 monologues.

Funnily, Kiyotaka verbatim debunks this entire theory all by himself:

Here, in this statement by Kiyotaka himself. He implies that focusing on memorization without actually applying the basics wasn't really the thing to learn. He draws a fine line between him and other natural geniuses like Yuki and Shiro who got results all by their "sense", but he himself mentions that it was still possible to surpass them, and we know he does surpass them later on.

So again, first of all, Kiyotaka himself mentions that it isn't just memorization, but actually focusing on learning and applying the things learnt to yourself.

Now, going with the memory, so bidding on the fact that Photographic Memory can actually help you learn is not the best of the arguments. Firstly, Photographic Memory is an ability to learn things by just taking a glance at them, but let's be real, if a Photographic Memory user memorizes something in a glance, then it can be memorized by a normal human as well, just not with the same speed as the former, meaning that memorizing should ultimately be the key to learning, which is just false, because even if you were to memorize the basics, you may fail to apply them, which is the thing.

Also, Suzukake mentioned that Kiyotaka would face some consequences if he was really doing his learning via memorization, he would face negative effects of it, which he basically never does reportedly, and his learning is unwavered.

I'm saying that his level of prediction is not beyond human/reality. We see these kinds of predictions in the real world. Being able to decipher people's personalities and motives to predict them based on that information is not as impressive as you're trying to make it out to be.

First, what evidence do you have that predictions of such accuracy can happen IRL? Second, according to the definition of EG, it doesn't say anything about their ability to predict the future needing to be above human limits anyway. It only mentions that they can predict future events via intelligence, which Ayanokouji can do.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Liberal arts is not considered a hard degree because you really don't go that in-depth

The whole point of liberal arts is that it's for people who don't know what they want to study, so it gives them a little taste of everything. Actually majoring in chemistry/biology/whatever will give you a far deeper understanding of the thing you're learning about

If you have proof of him mastering every single thing there, then yeah, that's something. But you just said he "mastered liberal arts". What does that even mean? Does he have PhD level knowledge in every single subject? Is he as smart as a libaral arts bachlors graduate?

If you sent the scan we can probably figure that out. If he is flat out PhD level intelligent in all of that, then sure, we're back to Extraordinary Genius. If not, then again, just high genius

Here;

2 scans of liberal arts

 

[XxZetsuxX]

So your arguement is just...

Nuh uh I don't trust you?

Okay, I no longer trust you on anything COTE related since I suspect you of being biased. Now all of your statements are just opinions.

Man, Idk what i did to you, You randomly started throwing jabs at me for no reason at all in previous threads wth is wrong with you?

 

[MCH2]

Myth 2: We have discussed this at length in the thread already and your point has already been made. However, your point mentions how moves can be superior for "human opponents" but this betrays a lack of understanding of the circumstances of the chess feat. This wasn't a case of just making a move better than Arisu, but a move that the engine also thought was better. The clear understanding of Tsukishiro saying as such was to point out Ayanokouji made a better move.

All I am saying that (“He made a better move than a chess engine”) has happened before to high ELO GMs, and it’s always a matter of the differential in how a human evaluates a move and a position vs how a chess engine does.

This is pure nonsense on your part and since I have no idea how you came to such a ridiculous conclusion on this. It has been shown before that Ayanokouji automatically retains information and can choose whether to recall information or not. His perfect memory isn't debatable in whether it exists, and this statement aligns with his other instances of showing a lack on interest in recalling certain information. Please don't spread misinformation like this anymore.

Recent evidence contradicts this.

Year 2 Volume 12:

"Last year, our situation wasn't much different [Than the current first years], but the bottom three classes were quite close, and depending on the end-of-year special exam, a major shift in class rankings was possible."
It depended on the rewards and the method of competition, but there was a possibility that Class A and Class D could completely swap places. I didn't remember the exact numbers, but both Horikita's class and Ryuen's class were hovering around 350 points.

Moreover, this year's first years started with 800 class points, and even Class D currently has over 500 points, which is to say that they are doing quite well.

This is notable because not only is the precise number something that Ayanokouji sees.

Year 1 Volume 11:

Chabashira picked up a piece of chalk and wrote out the current Class Point totals.
Class points as of March 1
Class A: 1001 Points
Class B: 640 Points
Class C: 377 Points
Class D: 318 Points

It’s something he recalls. (The following is him adding Y1V11 Final exam CP changes to March CPs)

Year 1 Volume 11.5:

Even though we’d been demoted to Class D again, the actual change in Class Points wasn’t too bad. The tentative Class Points as of late March were:
Sakayanagi’s Class A: 1131 Points
Ichinose’s Class B: 550 Points
Horikita’s Class C: 347 Points
Ryuuen’s Class D: 508 Points

If his memory is “perfect”, he wouldn’t go through his memories to choose what to commit

In the process of erasing unnecessary memories, there are things that come to mind.

My interpretation of Ayanokouji’s memory is that he consciously controls what he retains to memory and what he doesn’t. And 99.999% of information he chooses to retain remains.

This has been dismissed multiple times in this thread already and the anime moves can't be used to scale LN Koji's intelligence due to the differences in the canon material. I know you know this since we have talked about this before so I am not sure why you backtracked on this

I haven’t backtracked. I completely disregard the anime starter moves, and I primarily scale based on the information in V11, which leads to a GM / 2700 ELO likely conclusion (for both Ayanokouji and Arisu). I am simply stating the anime end game position doesn’t contradict the LN.

As stated he isn't "at" the human limit of intelligence but vastly above it as I have pointed out in previous posts in this thread. Comparing such general intelligence to L, PJ, or Baku is also laughable. I can't speak to Baku as much but from what I know none of them even come a little bit close to Ayanokouji in raw intelligence so such a claim is blatantly false.

I completely disagree. PJ and L are comically ridiculous in pure intelligence. (Not knowledge).

PJ memory in fact if we talk purely feats surpasses even Ayanokouji’s. For example:

- He can follow a deck shuffle by associating every card with a character and every position in the deck with a location in a memory palace. And by moving around it he can maintain the order in the memory palace to be the same as the deck.

- When he is told that he shook hands with Red John, he produces an exhaustive list of every single person he shook hands with in the past decade. A list that’s 2164+ strong after filtering out the obvious ones. he then narrows it out to 7.

- His performance in blackjack is comical, because he doesn’t count cards, he memorizes them. He practically plays perfectly, akin to a computer’s “perfect play”.

L is supposedly even higher spec than PJ in FSIQ when one considers CTW, but I don’t have enough knowledge on L to comment.

Even if Ayanokouji > PJ or Baku (Valid!). They are comparable, within a ballpark of each other.

Someone like Dazai is vastly superior to this level…..

 

[RoggerReggor]

I believe Reggor's point is that given the drastic differences between the LN and the anime making the blanket assumption that anime timeline events happen the same as in the LN in incorrect. Some examples:

40 students per class in the LN, 25 in the anime
Horikita helped Ayanokouji with the camera bluff in the Sudo trial, LN it was Ichinose
Horikita helped in the pool episode with the cameras, LN it was Kei
Planets Exam with 8 groups in the anime, Zodiac Exam 12 groups in the LN
Contruction site confrontation in the anime, Rooftop in the LN
etc.

So the point being that the Anime and LN are separate continuities that contain some similarities. If the anime offers additional information and context without replacing, contradicting, or otherwise breaking with the LN then some content can be used. However, when the content differs from the LN then it should be treated as a divergence from the source material and not used for scaling.

For the Chess Match, simply put the specific moves made in the anime are a divergence from the LN for the very reason that Arisu is a better chess player than any of the masters Koji beat in the WR. A true analysis of the anime match shows her ELO to be that of an intermediate player at best which is a clear break from the LN canon that contradicts that. What this argument is trying to do is override LN canon which states Arisu is a high level player and replace it with anime canon that she is intermediate. That is why such an argument is invalid.

Reggor can you confirm what I said above is correct.

This is true.

Also, the anime shows a timeframe for Flash Mental Arithmetic which is much lesser than 1.6 seconds, but yet, we never use it basically because it doesn't line up with the LN. So, it goes both ways. We are discarding anime feats if they don't line with the anime, even when they all basically happen to upgrade the intelligence of a handful of characters. The anime shows Chiaki doing the feat of 1.6 seconds speed FMA.

(disclaimer: I used Gemini to fix shit formatting)

Let's debunk some myths related to the chess game:

Myth 1: Defeating a Supercomputer at Age 6

Source: YouTube slideshow video.

Reality: False. This claim is complete misinformation. Volume 0, which has Ayanokouji's childhood, makes no mention of this event. Chess is barely discussed in volume 0.

Myth 2: Out Computing a Supercomputer in Chess

Source: Classroom of the Elite Vol. 11, during his chess match with Arisu Sakayanagi.

Quote: "He was planning to use a different move, at the time. An even better move than the best one we could’ve come up with. I had a significant number of personnel and even a dedicated machine in place, and we were still forced into making an extremely difficult decision.” - Tsukishiro (talking to Arisu and Ayanokouji)

Reality: Misinterpreted/exaggerated. While he made a move deemed superior to the engine's suggestion, this doesn't equate to out computing a supercomputer (it's not even a supercomputer, it's stated as a machine in V11 and shown as a laptop in the anime). Human players (2700+ ELO) have done this in real life. when this usually happens, the human moves are not necessarily "superior" to the top engine recommendations in an absolute sense. Rather, they are equally strong alternatives with significantly more practical difficulties for human opponents

Myth 3: Perfect Memory

Source: Volume 0. based on Ayanokouji getting a perfect score in a hidden implicit memory test and based on his ability to recall events in his first 3 years of life.

Reality: False. Year 2 Volume 12 directly contradicts this. Ayanokouji forgets the exact March class points from a year prior (318/377), recalling it as "around 350". Not only does Ayanokouji himself state he forgot this, but it's also something he saw in Vol 11 and recalled in Vol 11.5. He does forget things, even if rarely.

Myth 4: Anime Chess Moves

Reality: Mixed. What happened very specifically is that an end game position is described in the LN, and it's described narratively and without detail, but it's the action climax of the battle. The anime thus worked backwards from an end position that fit and made nonsensical filler moves to stretch the game and to eventually get to the endgame position. The narrative of the endgame position was:

1. Arisu and Ayanokouji are perfectly matched. With Ayanokouji stating that if he makes one mistake, he will instantly lose.
2. Arisu makes a move; Ayanokouji here states that Arisu's main goal is NOT winning but drawing out his full skill. In the anime, this is shown as her making a risky move, where she losses her advantage if Ayanokouji spots a difficult queen sacrifice but is guaranteed to win if he doesn't.
3. Ayanokouji finds the move that turns the game around and makes the game winning in his favor.
4. Tsukishiro switches the move, thus Ayanokouji losses.

The anime end game position is narratively consistent with all of this and with the LN narrative. The anime's starter moves are nonsensical because they worked backwards. This isn't unique to COTE, Lelouch from Code Geass has many examples of this.

Ayanokouji's Actual Abilities:

1. Academics:

• Math: High school Olympiad level at 5 (Vol. 0), undergraduate-level at 6 (Anime), and graduate-level math at 7+ (Y2V1).
• General Knowledge: βeta curriculum covered (non-inclusive) Japanese, English, Literature, Economics, History, Social Studies, Psychology, Philosophy, Mathematics, Biology, Physics, Chemistry, Painting, Music, etc. We can safely say, he has PHD level knowledge in practically all of this.
• Advanced Learning: Surpassed many professors by age 10, literally stated to have knowledge exceeding a typical lifetime's worth many times over.

TLDR: Possesses college professor-level knowledge in numerous domains. Virtually limitless in acquired knowledge.

2. Memory:

• Exceptional MANUAL Retention: The normal process of your mind deciding which memories to commit to long term memory is conscious for Ayanokouji due to a mutation, which allowed him to even keep memories of himself as infant. Thus he can selectively choose what to commit to memory manually. Furthermore, he can even completely forget people he lived with for more than half his life. This leads Ayanokouji to having an exceptionally thorough and well organized memory.
• Not Perfect: His information recall for things he commits to memory is not 100% perfect, he does rarely forget (trivial) information he saw and recalled previously.

TLDR: Beyond exceptional memory, but not 100% perfect.

3. General Intelligence:

• Chess: Despite specializing in Japanese chess and not classical (V7.5), he matches Arisu in classical, something stated verbatim by Ayanokouji himself; Arisu is further stated as surpassing professional chess players. His skill level can be estimated as International Master (lowball) to mid-high Grandmaster (fair estimate). we can't be certain here, but that's where the evidence points.
• Mental Arithmetic: Casually surpasses the real-life world record for flash mental arithmetic.
• Foresight: He does have this, but this isn't really extraordinary genius level. An extraordinary genius like Dazai runs circles around him in this department. And Ayanokouji fails to anticipate a major event as recently as Y2V12.
• Creative Ability: Doesn't have the ability to synthesize new knowledge or create original works. As an example, in Y2V10, despite exceptional painting skills, he cannot draw from imagination or create original paintings.

Ok. So, thanks for debunking the myths, but we don't use any of these myths to scale him, and I heavily disagree with the notion of his processing speed being just "slightly" above that of a peak human, I will explain later on.

Having established that, let's look at the criteria for Extraordinary Genius:

"Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science"
This part can be taken as true

"Vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits."
In Academics, it's more akin that Ayanokouji is at the upper human limits in almost all domains and fields. He's an incomprehensible knowledge sponge.

In General Intelligence, his Memory, Learning Ability and Visualization abilities vastly surpass upper human limits. Furthermore, his processing speed / working memory are roughly slightly above upper human limits.

So, it can be said that in certain pure cognitive categories this claim is true. However, I'd caution this would also be True to L (Death Note) / Patrick Jane / Baku and many others if that’s the standard for extraordinary genius.

He "vastly" does surpass the real world's upper human limits.

• No human can process a huge part of their life to look for a single person in their memories like Kiyotaka did in Y1V8.
• No human can learn sports like skiing and improve in it in an instant by observing new techniques, and basically no one can learn archery by seeing just internet tutorials and basically learning it instantly.
• No human in their potential are stated to go beyond White Room level 5 or 6. Not to mention, these kids need to have the perseverance and mental fortitude of more than just a human to survive in the White Room.

L doesn't do anything special except for his intuition and is high image recollection capacity. Patrick Jane and Baku are people in their own rights but both of them would fail in meeting the E.G. criteria due to being more centered around outsmarting than being purely logical and calculative. So, no, it isn't true for any of them. Bad analogy.

"Capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology"
Absolutely not. He practically can't create anything. He might possess the knowledge to do it and the specs to accomplish it, but he never learned how to synthesize new information or knowledge.

This is just an assumption. Just saying "he never did it" would be much, much better than saying "he can't do it".

“I thought I could create something on impulse, but it didn't turn out that way.
In the White Room, I learned numerous skills to enhance my aptitude.
Among these was sketching, which I wasn't bad at.
However, the process of thinking and creating on my own was not part of the curriculum.
I stared at the blank sketchbook.
After a while, I closed the silver case.”

Funnily enough, this statement, if you look at the context, scales mostly his Creativity and that too, particularly in sketching. This has no relations with his inventing ability.

And... making futuristic inventions is basically a validation for being knowledgeable. For example, smartphone made by Apple engineers in early 2000s may be "futuristic" for the people of that era, but none of them would be considered E.G.s just plainly upon that, so it is idiotic to even base it upon that. Inventing isn't even related to intellect but just happens to be more of a validation rather than a necessity.

"Executing complex strategies even under high pressure"
This part can be taken as true.

"Outperforming supercomputers"
Extremely flimsy and weak evidence of this. he made a better chess move than the best one chess professionals using an engine that ran on a machine (shown to be a laptop in the anime) came up with. The context of what this actually means (discussed above) does not equate this to outperforming a supercomputer.

He added 15 6-digit numbers in 1.6s. A supercomputer does trillions a second.

That's entirely your opinion.

Stockfish would scale above your today's supercomputers if they don't have enough

Spoiler: I didn't want to do this.

In Year 1 Volume 9, Kiyotaka meets Arisu. Arisu greets Kiyotaka, but Kiyotaka basically cannot remember of ever meeting her.

Now, in volume 0, we know that Kiyotaka states that he accesses his memories like in drawers. Because Arisu hasn't met him ever, there would be no visual trigger (I am referring to the heuristics definition) to trigger Arisu plainly in her memories. Therefore, he cannot just remember about her at any point. Therefore, Kiyotaka would need to be sure of whether he actually met Arisu or not. For this, he can either,
1. Make an assumption
2. Go through his memories to be sure of whether he has actually met her.

Seeing the scan, it would suffice to say that he obviously did the number 2, because he was "sure" of the fact rather than making an assumption and making it as a "maybe" or a "probably", even going as far as to say that there was no arguing with that fact.

Now, Kiyotaka remembers basically all the FOVs he sees. This is related with his Photographic Memory, and this was demonstrated when he was able to remember the name of a clerk when it just happened to enter his FOV for once, meaning that we can use that as a reference.

Now, let's say that Kiyotaka slept to the fullest and for 8 hours every day, which would make it 16 hours of awake state. Kiyotaka was about 15 years 11 months or 15.9 years old at the time.
Total time for him to memory-capture = (16*3600*365)*15.9 = 334281600 seconds.

Let's say only about 70% of this differs, which would make it 233997120 seconds, which is still a lot.

Normal humans can process images at an almost realistic rate (almost as same as the speed at which they see it), so Kiyotaka would basically be much, much better than a normal human, as he did all of it while his back faced Arisu.

This for sure cannot be done by a normal computer, or even a high-end PC, as we know that even the video renders by PCs take a lot of time, as for the supercomputer part, most supercomputers have more than 10 times more computing powers than the highest processing laptops.

Because even normal humans have vision processing speed as very fast due to humans having the entire region in brain dedicated to it, the conscious processing would be involved with conscious thought, so yes, a normal human brain at interpreting images would be very high in itself (which, again would scale basically higher than normal computers in subconscious processing (conscious processing, however, wouldn't be a question), so Kiyotaka would basically scale much, much higher than that, so upon a safer side assumption, I would say that he does happen to be much, much higher than a normal human in processing speed.

You can ask more about this feat from Huntsman, as he was the one who widely publicized it in the community, and it has been widely accepted as being true.

Also, the 1.6 seconds FMA calculation is basically too low to scale to Kiyotaka. There are many characters in the series who have done it, and it's obvious that all of them do not come close to Kiyotaka. Not to mention, it was too casual for them as well, so Kiyotaka should be out of question.

"Accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations."
What Ayanokouji does is more akin to anticipating and preparing countermeasures for different possibilities.

I wouldn't be too verbose with classifying both Anticipation and Prediction differently, at least on VSBW where the text you quoted itself says the same and contradicts the SCD definition of both. Predictions is beyond just mental calculations, anticipation isn't, meaning that if we are actually nitpicking just a single word, we would need to nitpick the entire sentence.

 

[RoggerReggor]

@RoggerReggor some misconceptions to correct:

Regarding IQ :
You are misunderstanding mental age IQ with scaled IQ. In mental age, yes Ayanokouji’s IQ is sky high since whiteroom causes accelerated development.

I have never said that both are same. I even refer to the former as the "traditional" Raw IQ and the other as better. There's quite literally nothing in my reply which suggests that.

WAIS exams, and the standard, are scaled exams. In those, scoring 300 is impossible. Similarly, a scaled IQ of 190 is much stronger than a mental age IQ of 190. Most of the real life high IQ claims are based on mental age: “I’m as smart at 10 as an average person at 20, thus 200 IQ” and not on “I am 7 standard deviations smarter than the average person”.

Which is more impressive?
“In intelligence, I am one in a billion”
“At 10, I was as smart as an average 19 year old”

Ayanokouji’s opponent isn’t a real life genius, nor is the definition the one we use in real life based on WAIS IQ bands and expanded norms. The definition is the one used in the wiki, both in text and in-practice (how it’s applied).

E.Gs include people like :

Dazai/Fyodor, people who invented and conversed in a made up encrypted language on the spot. With the encryption key being based on every last conversation they had.

Shiro (NGNL), calculating every possible chess position

Iron man / Rick / etc creating ridiculous gadgets and breakthroughs. Time travel, nano tech, warping, etc.

That’s the standard being used here. Now, is it possible to find an extraordinary genius who’s worse than Kouji? I don’t know.

The funny thing is that Shiro is accepted as a Supergenius upon infinite processing speed, and Iron Man/Rick would be supergeniuses upon knowledge itself if they make anything related to reality warping, upon the wiki standards, of course, though in reality they may even get outsmarted ridiculously. Of course, I am not referring to any of these characters mentioned above, but funnily to those Supergeniuses who basically suck at general outsmarting and only have higher intelligence quotients and knowledge.

 

[RoggerReggor]

It appears inconsistent to disregard the anime's visuals for the light novel, especially when we've previously considered them for other purposes. Not pointing fingers, but this feels like a case of selectively ignoring information, which comes across as somewhat biased.

And for this...

We ignore all that information which doesn't connect with the LN, or is basically outright the opposite of what is shown in the LN. The author has accepted that the anime basically describes the story well and that, it can be used canonically. But tell me, if the anime just goes the opposite, or in the way where the LN doesn't go, which one would you prioritize?

We have not taken in the Manabu vs Ayanokouji display (E1), the FMA display (S3 E11), the Katsuragi deductions (S2), Tsukishiro reflexes (S3). I don't know why you think so. We have ditched even those feats which can potentially upgrade the characters.

If you are referring to the boar feat, then it has been accepted that Kouenji canonically went into the forest (and has even been shown in the LN), and it has been mentioned that he was taking some heavy risk. Only in the anime we see that he kills and lifts a boar. In the novel, it has been mentioned that he had a confrontation with a boar. So, everything is connected, and the anime doesn't deviate from what happened.

I think this would be the last time I address why anime is not good for the chess feat. If you say that, you are saying that Kiyotaka outsmarted a chess machine, but he didn't, at the same time. And that, he defeated professionals, but he didn't at the same time. Arisu is regarded as to being above the professionals in the White Room, but she is mediocre at the same time.

Nah, if you find contradictions between the primary and the secondary canon, you prioritize the primary one, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

[MCH2]

No human can process a huge part of their life to look for a single person in their memories like Kiyotaka did in Y1V8.

I regard this as extreme hyperbole as well. Just to be clear this is based on :

Year 1 Volume 5:

“It’s been quite a long time, Ayanokouji-kun. Eight years and 243 days, actually.”
“You’re joking, right? I don’t even know who you are.”
“Heh. No, I suppose not. It’s just me who knows you, after all.” …….

“This is a reunion. I just wanted to come give you a proper greeting.”
Reunion? Though I kept my back to Sakayanagi, I turned my head to look at her. I had never seen her before. I didn’t remember this girl, and I wasn’t missing any memories of my past. I had met Sakayanagi for the first time at school. There was no arguing with that fact.”

So just to be clear, what people are running with is that in that instant, Ayanokouji sorted through everyday of his life and confirmed he didn’t meet Arisu before.

the simple interpretation is correct:
1) He doesn’t recall Sakayanagi.
2) He isn’t missing any memories (the extent of this is unclear).

Based on 1 and 2 he can absolutely be certain that he never met her before. That’s the process he mentions.

There is no mention of him ever going through everyday of his life on the spot or anything of the sort.

And this isn’t beyond PJ lol, who recalled exhaustively every single person he shook hands with for the past decade. (2164+ strong, he works as a consultant detective)

No human can learn sports like skiing and improve in it in an instant by observing new techniques, and basically no one can learn archery by seeing just internet tutorials and basically learning it instantly.

His physical abilities and motor skills are comically beyond human limits. He’s subsonic and wall level after all.

No human in their potential are stated to go beyond White Room level 5 or 6. Not to mention, these kids need to have the perseverance and mental fortitude of more than just a human to survive in the White Room.

The limit of “human potential” is level 5. Level 10 is much harder and one needs to be a genius among geniuses (in COTE standards) to even survive it. This is one aspect Ayanokouji absolutely vastly exceeds human potential in : Learning ability. Humans can learn Graduate level math, they can’t do it at 7…….

But the WR in narrative causes massive accelerated development and prioritization of academic and physical development to the determent of social and emotional development.

I’d note on an unrelated note that Shiro was doing extremely well and he himself thought if he doesn’t deliberately dropout that the situation was going to continue for 10 years.

Patrick Jane and Baku are people in their own rights but both of them would fail in meeting the E.G

Both have CPI feats that can go toe-to-toe with FMA / Sakayanagi Visualization feats / etc.

I’d even say, in FSIQ he’s likely slightly better. But I truly mean slightly, they are in a similar ballpark.

This is just an assumption. Just saying "he never did it" would be much, much better than saying "he can't do it".

Fair, I am willing to accept future evidence if it comes. But as it currently stands, no he never created anything big or small.

Also, the 1.6 seconds FMA calculation is basically too low to scale to Kiyotaka. There are many characters in the series who have done it, and it's obvious that all of them do not come close to Kiyotaka. Not to mention, it was too casual for them as well, so Kiyotaka should be out of question.

Yes but that’s the verse’s best PSI feat barring the hotly exaggerated interpretations of his memory and of his chess performance.

The funny this is that Shiro is accepted as a Supergenius upon infinite processing speed, and Iron Man/Rick would be supergeniuses upon knowledge itself if they make anything related to reality warping, upon the wiki standards, of course, though in reality they may even get outsmarted ridiculously. Of course, I am not referring to any of these characters mentioned above, but funnily to those Supergeniuses who basically suck at general outsmarting and only have higher intelligence quotients and knowledge.

I am looking at who is considered an extraordinary genius that I know of and seeing if Ayanokouji is even within the same dimension. And so far all I am hitting is no. Dazai for examples is vastly superior.

And like I said, now that the facts have been laid bare, this is merely a matter of definitions and comparisons. I’d welcome a comparison so we may reach the truth of it.

Cheers.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I'd need more detail on why these feats are as impressive as you believe.

I'll keep my explanations as brief as possible while still getting the main points of what Koji did across. Certainly I can't do complete justice to reading the novels as some of these span multiple volumes and many interconnected events but I'll do my best.

Island Strategy: While the 4 classes are on a deserted island for their first special exam Ayanokouji spends time traversing the island and gathering information. This included observing Class A's current leader Katsuragi and profiling him and his methods from a brief interaction. Then when he and 2 other classmates encountered a class C student, Ibuki, in the woods alone he noticed dirt under her fingernails and the ground under her was slightly disturbed. From here he deduced the following:
1. Ibuki has dirt under her fingernails.
2. The ground beneath her is disturbed.
-------------------------------------
She dug in the ground and buried something.

1. She wouldn’t just bury something in the ground if she was kicked out of her Class and is on her own?
2. All personal items were confiscated before entering the island so anything she had was from the manual.
3. She buried an item from the manual she got by spending points.
4. The buried item would be out of place with her normal provisions.
--------------------------------------------------------
She doesn’t want anyone to find what she buried because it will expose the truth about her circumstances.

1. An item that exposes her as a liar would mean her getting kicked out of Class C is a lie and her true purpose being here is related to winning the exam.
2. The item must be related to finding Class D’s leader.
3. If she is here to find Class D’s leader then Class C is actively trying to win the exam.
---------------------------------------------------
Ibuki is a spy
Knowing Ibuki was a spy he investigated her bag that night to confirm what the odd noise had come from.

1. He found a digital camera in her bag.
2. He confirmed the camera was not a personal item and hadn’t been used before, meaning she acquired it on the island.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
She had the camera to gather evidence of Class D’s leader.

1. Ryuen sent Ibuki to gather evidence of Class D’s leader with a camera to photograph the evidence of Class D’s leader.
2. If Ryuen sent Ibuki to be a spy, he should trust her report on the leader’s identity without photographic evidence.
3. If the camera is found it would incriminate Ibuki as a spy which would cause their plan to fail.
4. Ibuki didn’t bury the camera, meaning she wanted to have easy access for when she needed it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Having the camera was worth the risk and necessary to their plan.

1. If the camera was worth the risk to their plan, Ryuen must need a photograph of the keycard.
2. Since Ryuen should trust Ibuki’s report as a spy, someone who doesn’t trust Ibuki needs confirmation of Class D’s leader.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class C was working with another Class who wouldn’t just trust Ibuki.

1. Class B is unlikely, since this goes against Ichinose’s personality and their alliance with Class D.
--------------------------------
Ryuen had allied with Class A for this exam.
He was able to confirm his deductions were true later when he and Horikita visited Class C’s camp and he noticed the radio Ryuen had matched Ibuki’s, and when he saw Kaneda in Class B’s camp who he knew was also a spy.
From here he manipulated Ibuki's access to information and convinced her he was a trusting and gullible person. Then he destroyed her camera with water to force her to steal his classes keycard directly. He used Horikita's illness which he observed at the onset of the exam to bait her into a fight with Ibuki, force Horikita to retire while instilling a lesson in her, and then changing leaders to deal a blow to both Classes A and C. Then by guessing their leaders correctly he won the exam in a landslide.

Paper Shuffle: Knowing Kushida was a traitor from the results of the Zodiac Exam he confronted her during the Sports Festival about giving his classes participation table to Ryuuen. This would prove useful later when he would take steps to have Kushida expelled. When the final exam was announced as a special exam he confronted Horikita to force her to focus on Kushida. By doing so he got her to choose to target Class C and bait Kushida into betraying the class to Ryuuen again. Horikita had prepared by telling Chabashira to only accept questions from her. Ayanokouji, predicting this, set up a transaction with Ryuuen where he told him about Horikita's strategy in exchange for changing the questions he gave to Kushida and giving him the old ones. He set up several layered contingencies during this period to both ensure his victory and ensure he and Horikita couldn't lose. He planted evidence of cheating on Kushida and Ike her partner since if either one were cheating both would be expelled. He had Kei check Sato's belongings for the same reason since she was his partner. So with his transaction with Ryuuen giving him "evidence" of Kushida cheating and him preventing the same tactic from being used against him he ensured he couldn't lose.

X Strategy: This is his overarching strategy involving all the intricacies of manipulating Ryuuen and acting as Class D's mastermind in the shadows. The main steps are:

1. Ayanokouji identified Ryuuen as Class D’s biggest threat to advancing.
2. Ayanokouji gave Ibuki the impression of a gullible follower.
3. Ayanokouji profiled Hirata during the island exam and chose him as a scapegoat for X
4. Ayanokouji won the island exam using Horikita to conceal his involvement
5. Ayanokouji solved the Zodiac pattern learning Kei is the VIP
6. Ayanokouji identified his lack of control over Class D and chose Kei to help address it.
7. He gained control of Kei using Class C students so he could bait Ryuuen.
8. He realized Kushida was a traitor from the zodiac results, and planned to get rid of her.
9. He used his further interactions with Ibuki to make her believe he can’t be X (fortune teller and movie theatre).
10. Ayanokouji planned to prove to Kei & Horikita Class D has a traitor.
11. He increased Horikita’s standing in Class D further during the sports festival.
12. By racing Manabu, he made Ryuuen think he couldn’t be X due to Ryuuen’s profile of X
13. Doing so also appeased Chabashira somewhat and allowed him to reveal his abilities slowly.
14. Ayanokouji continued to frame Hirata as the most likely person to be X.
15. He used Manabe to both stop Ryuuen’s plan and lead him to connect X to Kei.
16. He set up the situation to prove to Horikita and Kei that Kushida was a traitor.
17. Ayanokouji manipulated Horikita into confronting Kushida directly during paper shuffle.
18. He orchestrated the bet, used it to learn about Kushida’s past and stopped her from interfering.
19. He sent letters to the grade to gain intel on Ryuuen’s personality, and create contingencies vs Ryuuen in their confrontation.
20. He forced Ryuuen into a transaction so he could counter Kushida and win the Paper Shuffle.
21. He predicted the exact outcome of a conversation to learn if Kushida had a spare uniform.
22. He used that knowledge to trap her in case she won her bet.
23. Ayanokouji continued to frame Hirata as X when Ryuuen confronted Koenji.
24. When Ryuuen was ready for the final confrontation with X, Ayanokouji set up a solid alibi.
25. He involved Chabashira and Manabu so that Ryuuen couldn’t claim he started the fight.
26. He arrived at the rooftop as planned where Kei would now believe he would always save her.
27. Upon arriving Ryuuen thought Hirata manipulated Ayanokouji into showing up at first.
28. Ayanokouji explained his plan and resolved the situation with violence.

This is a VERY high level overview as this took place over 6 LN volumes and multiple special exams.

Knife Strategy: After meeting with Tsukishiro in Y1V11.5 Ayanokouji makes several deductions regarding the WR and its operatives acting in ANHS. He begins to prepare by considering the most likely scenario "They don't care about their own expulsion so they go with the premise to be expelled either way, so they wouldn’t mind taking actions against the school rules to ensure that Ayanokoji would be expelled. He considers that they would try to approach him in the special exam or have contact with him in one way or another later on."

He initially observed Housen as someone who was likely not a WR student because his appearance and behavior wasn’t that of what Atsuomi would approve of a WR student, or how a WR student would behave/operate. Housen didn’t care one bit about attracting attention to his problematic behavior. In Tsukishiro’s position, he would’ve instructed whoever he sent after Ayanokoji to avoid doing anything to stand out. While this could have been an intentional misdirection, that was unlikely.

During the negotiations with Housen to get class 1-D to cooperate with 2-D things turned violent. After attacking Horikita and Sudo, Housen pulled out a knife which Ayanokouji recognized. From that he deduced Ichika's involvement and Housen's goal since he knew about the 20M point bounty on him. From here he decided to stop Housen from stabbing himself by forcing him to stab his hand. By allowing his hand to be stabbed he would gain immediate leverage over Housen and could force him into cooperation, he could also secure him as a partner for the exam which protected him even on the off chance Housen was a WR enforcer. Using the wound as evidence he could prove foul play if Housen were tank his scores to try and get Ayanokouji expelled.

Here are some examples of his strategic thinking and with some under high pressure situations. There are others but this is already very long.

 

[wwereymy235]

I'll keep my explanations as brief as possible while still getting the main points of what Koji did across. Certainly I can't do complete justice to reading the novels as some of these span multiple volumes and many interconnected events but I'll do my best.

Island Strategy: While the 4 classes are on a deserted island for their first special exam Ayanokouji spends time traversing the island and gathering information. This included observing Class A's current leader Katsuragi and profiling him and his methods from a brief interaction. Then when he and 2 other classmates encountered a class C student, Ibuki, in the woods alone he noticed dirt under her fingernails and the ground under her was slightly disturbed. From here he deduced the following:
1. Ibuki has dirt under her fingernails.
2. The ground beneath her is disturbed.
-------------------------------------
She dug in the ground and buried something.

1. She wouldn’t just bury something in the ground if she was kicked out of her Class and is on her own?
2. All personal items were confiscated before entering the island so anything she had was from the manual.
3. She buried an item from the manual she got by spending points.
4. The buried item would be out of place with her normal provisions.
--------------------------------------------------------
She doesn’t want anyone to find what she buried because it will expose the truth about her circumstances.

1. An item that exposes her as a liar would mean her getting kicked out of Class C is a lie and her true purpose being here is related to winning the exam.
2. The item must be related to finding Class D’s leader.
3. If she is here to find Class D’s leader then Class C is actively trying to win the exam.
---------------------------------------------------
Ibuki is a spy
Knowing Ibuki was a spy he investigated her bag that night to confirm what the odd noise had come from.

1. He found a digital camera in her bag.
2. He confirmed the camera was not a personal item and hadn’t been used before, meaning she acquired it on the island.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
She had the camera to gather evidence of Class D’s leader.

1. Ryuen sent Ibuki to gather evidence of Class D’s leader with a camera to photograph the evidence of Class D’s leader.
2. If Ryuen sent Ibuki to be a spy, he should trust her report on the leader’s identity without photographic evidence.
3. If the camera is found it would incriminate Ibuki as a spy which would cause their plan to fail.
4. Ibuki didn’t bury the camera, meaning she wanted to have easy access for when she needed it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Having the camera was worth the risk and necessary to their plan.

1. If the camera was worth the risk to their plan, Ryuen must need a photograph of the keycard.
2. Since Ryuen should trust Ibuki’s report as a spy, someone who doesn’t trust Ibuki needs confirmation of Class D’s leader.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class C was working with another Class who wouldn’t just trust Ibuki.

1. Class B is unlikely, since this goes against Ichinose’s personality and their alliance with Class D.
--------------------------------
Ryuen had allied with Class A for this exam.
He was able to confirm his deductions were true later when he and Horikita visited Class C’s camp and he noticed the radio Ryuen had matched Ibuki’s, and when he saw Kaneda in Class B’s camp who he knew was also a spy.
From here he manipulated Ibuki's access to information and convinced her he was a trusting and gullible person. Then he destroyed her camera with water to force her to steal his classes keycard directly. He used Horikita's illness which he observed at the onset of the exam to bait her into a fight with Ibuki, force Horikita to retire while instilling a lesson in her, and then changing leaders to deal a blow to both Classes A and C. Then by guessing their leaders correctly he won the exam in a landslide.

Paper Shuffle: Knowing Kushida was a traitor from the results of the Zodiac Exam he confronted her during the Sports Festival about giving his classes participation table to Ryuuen. This would prove useful later when he would take steps to have Kushida expelled. When the final exam was announced as a special exam he confronted Horikita to force her to focus on Kushida. By doing so he got her to choose to target Class C and bait Kushida into betraying the class to Ryuuen again. Horikita had prepared by telling Chabashira to only accept questions from her. Ayanokouji, predicting this, set up a transaction with Ryuuen where he told him about Horikita's strategy in exchange for changing the questions he gave to Kushida and giving him the old ones. He set up several layered contingencies during this period to both ensure his victory and ensure he and Horikita couldn't lose. He planted evidence of cheating on Kushida and Ike her partner since if either one were cheating both would be expelled. He had Kei check Sato's belongings for the same reason since she was his partner. So with his transaction with Ryuuen giving him "evidence" of Kushida cheating and him preventing the same tactic from being used against him he ensured he couldn't lose.

X Strategy: This is his overarching strategy involving all the intricacies of manipulating Ryuuen and acting as Class D's mastermind in the shadows. The main steps are:

1. Ayanokouji identified Ryuuen as Class D’s biggest threat to advancing.
2. Ayanokouji gave Ibuki the impression of a gullible follower.
3. Ayanokouji profiled Hirata during the island exam and chose him as a scapegoat for X
4. Ayanokouji won the island exam using Horikita to conceal his involvement
5. Ayanokouji solved the Zodiac pattern learning Kei is the VIP
6. Ayanokouji identified his lack of control over Class D and chose Kei to help address it.
7. He gained control of Kei using Class C students so he could bait Ryuuen.
8. He realized Kushida was a traitor from the zodiac results, and planned to get rid of her.
9. He used his further interactions with Ibuki to make her believe he can’t be X (fortune teller and movie theatre).
10. Ayanokouji planned to prove to Kei & Horikita Class D has a traitor.
11. He increased Horikita’s standing in Class D further during the sports festival.
12. By racing Manabu, he made Ryuuen think he couldn’t be X due to Ryuuen’s profile of X
13. Doing so also appeased Chabashira somewhat and allowed him to reveal his abilities slowly.
14. Ayanokouji continued to frame Hirata as the most likely person to be X.
15. He used Manabe to both stop Ryuuen’s plan and lead him to connect X to Kei.
16. He set up the situation to prove to Horikita and Kei that Kushida was a traitor.
17. Ayanokouji manipulated Horikita into confronting Kushida directly during paper shuffle.
18. He orchestrated the bet, used it to learn about Kushida’s past and stopped her from interfering.
19. He sent letters to the grade to gain intel on Ryuuen’s personality, and create contingencies vs Ryuuen in their confrontation.
20. He forced Ryuuen into a transaction so he could counter Kushida and win the Paper Shuffle.
21. He predicted the exact outcome of a conversation to learn if Kushida had a spare uniform.
22. He used that knowledge to trap her in case she won her bet.
23. Ayanokouji continued to frame Hirata as X when Ryuuen confronted Koenji.
24. When Ryuuen was ready for the final confrontation with X, Ayanokouji set up a solid alibi.
25. He involved Chabashira and Manabu so that Ryuuen couldn’t claim he started the fight.
26. He arrived at the rooftop as planned where Kei would now believe he would always save her.
27. Upon arriving Ryuuen thought Hirata manipulated Ayanokouji into showing up at first.
28. Ayanokouji explained his plan and resolved the situation with violence.

This is a VERY high level overview as this took place over 6 LN volumes and multiple special exams.

Knife Strategy: After meeting with Tsukishiro in Y1V11.5 Ayanokouji makes several deductions regarding the WR and its operatives acting in ANHS. He begins to prepare by considering the most likely scenario "They don't care about their own expulsion so they go with the premise to be expelled either way, so they wouldn’t mind taking actions against the school rules to ensure that Ayanokoji would be expelled. He considers that they would try to approach him in the special exam or have contact with him in one way or another later on."

He initially observed Housen as someone who was likely not a WR student because his appearance and behavior wasn’t that of what Atsuomi would approve of a WR student, or how a WR student would behave/operate. Housen didn’t care one bit about attracting attention to his problematic behavior. In Tsukishiro’s position, he would’ve instructed whoever he sent after Ayanokoji to avoid doing anything to stand out. While this could have been an intentional misdirection, that was unlikely.

During the negotiations with Housen to get class 1-D to cooperate with 2-D things turned violent. After attacking Horikita and Sudo, Housen pulled out a knife which Ayanokouji recognized. From that he deduced Ichika's involvement and Housen's goal since he knew about the 20M point bounty on him. From here he decided to stop Housen from stabbing himself by forcing him to stab his hand. By allowing his hand to be stabbed he would gain immediate leverage over Housen and could force him into cooperation, he could also secure him as a partner for the exam which protected him even on the off chance Housen was a WR enforcer. Using the wound as evidence he could prove foul play if Housen were tank his scores to try and get Ayanokouji expelled.

Here are some examples of his strategic thinking and with some under high pressure situations. There are others but this is already very long.

X strategy sneak peek?

 

[RoggerReggor]

I regard this as extreme hyperbole as well. Just to be clear this is based on :

Year 1 Volume 5:



So just to be clear, what people are running with is that in that instant, Ayanokouji sorted through everyday of his life and confirmed he didn’t meet Arisu before. This is wrong because Brains can search and Arisu sticks out like a sore thumb, and given how good his memory is and how it functions, he can be confident in stating he never met her before.

Arisu wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb sadly, because he has never met her (and therefore, there will be no visual cues of her). This would basically debunk the entire heuristics theory.

If you are even a bit notified about the SCD world, you would know. This argument was debunked like a month before. This related to memory is not even applicable here. We cannot use it.

His physical abilities and motor skills are comically beyond human limits. He’s subsonic and wall level after all.

That's true.

The limit of “human potential” is level 5. Level 10 is much harder and one needs to be a genius among geniuses (in COTE standards) to even survive it. However, I’d note on an unrelated note that Shiro was doing extremely well and he himself thought if he doesn’t deliberately dropout that the situation was going to continue for 10 years.

There's nothing which suggests that Shiro is dumb, so no, this doesn't prove anything.

Both have CPI feats that can go toe-to-toe with FMA / Sakayanagi Visualization feats / etc.

This is false. Arisu cannot think on the same level as Kiyotaka and this was rightfully shown in the chess feat when Kiyotaka just went in a much higher depth than her and easily took her on.

Yes but that’s the verse’s best PSI feat barring the hotly exaggerated interpretations of his memory and of his chess performance.

It isn't. If you use only FMA for scaling, then Nagumo's old maid feat outclasses it in PSI very easily. So no, it isn't the verse's best.

I am looking at who is considered an extraordinary genius that I know of and seeing if Ayanokouji is even within the same dimension. And so far all I am hitting is no. Dazai for examples is vastly superior.

Dazai is not an E.G. just because he never invented anything related to reality warping. But his Beast form has

Also, I have noticed these many times in this thread. People are trying to give a character and then say that Ayanokouji cannot be this or that. This entire statement you gave is just on the same level as me saying:

Goku is not Tier 0, therefore other characters cannot be Tier 0.

Well yeah, your favorite character might be a good E.G., but as long as you aren't using it as an analogy, at least don't use them as just pure examples.

Dazai is compared to NGNL characters, who all are in the supergenius ranges. And, this just shows that general outsmarting and VSBW intelligence concepts are both unrelated, so there's nothing we can do about it.

And like I said, now that the facts have been laid bare, this is merely a matter of definitions and comparisons. I’d welcome a comparison so we we may reach the truth of it.

Sure.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

All I am saying that (“He made a better move than a chess engine”) has happened before to high ELO GMs, and it’s always a matter of the differential in how a human evaluates a move and a position vs how a chess engine does.

Recent evidence contradicts this.

Year 2 Volume 12:

This is notable because not only is the precise number something that Ayanokouji sees.

Year 1 Volume 11:

It’s something he recalls. (The following is him adding Y1V11 Final exam CP changes to March CPs)

Year 1 Volume 11.5:

If his memory is “perfect”, he wouldn’t go through his memories to choose what to commit

My interpretation of Ayanokouji’s memory is that he consciously controls what he retains to memory and what he doesn’t. And 99.999% of information he chooses to retain remains.

Your Interpretation is incorrect as the scans I already posted have shown. While Reggor has also made his case I'll remind you of the 2 scans which disproves your "theory" regarding Ayanokouji's memory.

First is him pointing out how he has specific preferences in what information he recalls and when he doesn't want to recall certain information, he doesn't.



Second is him confirmed that he can't "delete" or forget things which also contradicts your whole point about his memory not being perfect.



I'll throw in the other scans of his perfect memory for fun to point out that not only can he NOT erase memories, but he stores ALL the information too, which fully disproves your theory on his memory.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

X strategy sneak peek?

I mean maybe a little bit...

 

[MCH2]

There's nothing which suggests that Shiro is dumb, so no, this doesn't prove anything.

I said it’s on unrelated note. Shiro is a genius within the context of COTE.

This is false. Arisu cannot think on the same level as Kiyotaka and this was rightfully shown in the chess feat when Kiyotaka just went in a much higher depth than her and easily took her on.

She is his equal in classical chess, which isn’t his specialty.

Year 1 Volume 11:

“As for the reason why I’m not going to seek a rematch… To be honest, it’s because I’ve determined that our chess skills are about even. If we played ten games for fun, it wouldn’t be surprising if we each ended up with five wins and five losses. Am I wrong in making this assessment?” she asked.
“Nah, it’s accurate.”
If we were to compete against each other again and again, things would play out just as Sakayanagi said they would. We were evenly matched in ability, which was interesting.”

Translating chess ELO for you. “We’d go 5-5 in a match series” => means they are practically the same ELO.

Similarly, her Y2V4 Visualization is used to upscale Ayanokouji’s VSI.

He completely trashes her in FRI / VCI though.

It isn't. If you use only FMA for scaling, then Nagumo's old maid feat outclasses it in PSI very easily

Does it?

Also, I have noticed these many times in this thread. People are trying to give a character and then say that Ayanokouji cannot be this or that. This entire statement you gave is just on the same level as me saying:

Valid, but beyond tearing down the definition and seeing who was considered a genius and who was considered an extraordinary genius we have no tools to determine which should Kouji take.

To me, Kouji is not meaningfully smarter than L, no. He gaps in knowledge, but that’s not intelligence.

 

[MCH2]

Second is him confirmed that he can't "delete" or forget things which also contradicts your whole point about his memory not being perfect.

Yuki is someone he lived with for ~8 out of the 14 years he’s lived. Erasing her out of his memory is more akin to a memory block. This is a completely different matter than his process of choosing which memories to commit to LTM and which not to (to erase). He’s never been shown to memorize everything at all times, not even close. The sole example that is usually provided for this is him remembering the name tag of an employee he passed, and a mid-wit (Ibuki) being surprised about it.

And I’ve already given a blatant example of Kouji forgetting something, a single example is sufficient to prove something isn’t perfect.

I'll throw in the other scans of his perfect memory for fun to point out that not only can he NOT erase memories, but he stores ALL the information too, which fully disproves your theory on his memory.

This is a scan of a hidden implicit memory test. If you ever had your memory tested, you’d know that being asked to recall information you’ve been deceived into thinking you didn’t need to recall is frequently tested. This is testing implicit memory.

I’d invite anyone to read what you write and what the scans themselves show. You are running wild with exaggerations and hyperbole.

From the narrative, Ayanokouji manually controls the process of what memories to commit to his long-term memory and what to discard. which helps him in retention, efficiency and organization. he practically has Patrick Jane memory naturally, without having to bother with the memory techniques PJ had to master to get there.

Dazai is not an E S.G. just because he never invented anything related to reality warping. But his Beast form has

If that’s the case, than Ayanokouji doesn’t come close to meeting E.G criteria. Then what are we arguing about? Normal Dazai would eat Ayanokouji for breakfast. And Ayanokouji never invented anything, let alone reality warping.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

So the combat EG rating is something I don't care to comment on at the moment since I am less familiar in trying to scale BIQ, but for his standard EG rating, looking at the OPs post I see no reason why this thread shouldn't be rejected and Ayanokouji should keep his EG rating while some edits are made to his Intelligence section better explaining it.

So in conclusion Ayanokouji's feats certainly do reach the level to qualify for Extraordinary Genius and his ability to do so has NOT been refuted by the OP. While he did point out why the profile wording isn't sufficient for portraying that and needs to be amended downgrading Ayanokouji from his EG rating would be incorrect. Given how this thread was formed on the basis of Ayanokouji not fulfilling the direct definition of EG according to VSBW standards this should clear up how he certainly does.

I pointed out multiple reasons here and even if for the sake of argument we assume that the Chess feat isn't valid for the outperforming supercomputers part of the EG definition, its explanation of being a measure of an advanced thought process is more than covered by his memory recall feats. So even without Chess Feat Ayanokouji still qualifies for an EG rating.

I'll address some of the more recent counters and why they don't support removing Ayanokouji's EG rating.

Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields - I think at this point most people don't have issue with this. He has beyond graduate levels of knowledge in a vast array of topics as has been discussed. His knowledge in many subjects was so advanced that instructors, which I again assert are "geniuses in their fields" and "world class" had to leave with nothing left to teach him.

Scans again:

Vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits - Here I brought up both the direct scan showing that level 6 curriculum is the "human limit" I compared it to an example of peak human in William James Sidis. They both involve learning multiple languages before age 5, both involve studying a wide variety of subjects at a high level early on, both studying university level subject around age 11, both were polymaths. Again I pointed out how Ayanokouji did massively better than this by learning multiple languages by age 4, was studying university level topics at age 5 instead of 11, his ability in each of these subjects is so advanced it led to genius instructors running out of things to teach him. Plus all the times the beta curriculum was explained to be vastly beyond anything of the other levels.

At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology - No he isn't.

Executing complex strategies even under high pressure - Yes, as explained in the post above.

Outperforming supercomputers[1]

[1]: “Outperforming supercomputers" is here used as an umbrella term for the ability to perform extremely advanced thought processes such as calculations and multitasking - Addressed this above and pointed out even ignoring the chess feat Ayanokouji still qualifies here on the basis of his memory recall feats.

Accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculation - Yes, as he does have feats predicting the future and has a direct statement of being able to calculate future possibilities and can use that to predict the future.

 

[Cimafranca133]

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

So just to be clear, what people are running with is that in that instant, Ayanokouji sorted through everyday of his life and confirmed he didn’t meet Arisu before.

the simple interpretation is correct:
1) He doesn’t recall Sakayanagi.
2) He isn’t missing any memories (the extent of this is unclear).

Based on 1 and 2 he can absolutely be certain that he never met her before. That’s the process he mentions.

In short: you are asserting that he can be certain he doesn't recall Sakayanagi because he doesn't have any recall of Sakayanagi he therefore can confirm he has no memory of her. This is inverse to how we know his memory functions. As I have pointed out before, he can selectively choose to recall or not recall information. There is no subconscious recall of information because if there were he wouldn't be able to choose to not recall information. Since we know he can choose not recall information as I have shown the scan for, this is disproven. Since we know he can't subconsciously recall Arisu that means he did a conscious search of his memory for her. This is the entire basis of the memory recall feat which you seem to be ignoring.

Your interpretation also points out how it contradicts Ayanokouji being sure beyond any doubt he has no memories of her, and the correct interpretation I have shown with scans does account for that. Like I said earlier, his Perfect Memory is established by feats, statements, and the narrative and your ONLY evidence to the contrary is either Ayanokouji's unreliable narration, or ignoring the FAR more likely scenario where he isn't interested in recalling specifics about class points which also aligns with the true interpretation of his perfect memory as I have explained.

And I’ve already given a blatant example of Kouji forgetting something, a single example is sufficient to prove something isn’t perfect.

Which doesn't matter when that single example is an incorrect interpretation, which I have shown.

 

[MCH2]

First is him pointing out how he has specific preferences in what information he recalls and when he doesn't want to recall certain information, he doesn't.

I love how even though the scan says that Ayanokouji says that there are certain information he can’t memorize, you changed it to recall….

Ayanokouji himself said he doesn’t remember the exact number, and we know he did remember it Y1V11.5. Those are facts, not interpretations.

Ayanokouji chooses what to commit to long term memory and what to discard. he discards useless information. Him “erasing” Yuki from his memory is something completely different, he lived with her for half of his life every day. He can’t remove her from his LTM, he simply blocked those memories. But when she says who she is, he remembered.

In short: you are asserting that he can be certain he doesn't recall Sakayanagi because he doesn't have any recall of Sakayanagi he therefore can confirm he has no memory of her.

He details how he can be certain quite clearly

“I didn’t remember this girl(observation 1), and I wasn’t missing any memories of my past(observation 2). I had met Sakayanagi for the first time at school (conclusion).”

There is absolutely nothing, absolutely nothing to suggest he searched through every day of his life manually on that spot or in any other spot. Every recollection can be made into a EG feat with this mindset.

Regarding the definition I agree with you on all except the last two:

Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields
Applies here unquestionably

Vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits
in totality of Intelligence, I agree. Though I would say many geniuses qualify for this. He’s unique in that those geniuses don’t have his multi subject knowledge. His learning ability in particular is comical.

At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology
Obviously he never did anything like this

“Outperforming supercomputers" is here used as an umbrella term for the ability to perform extremely advanced thought processes such as calculations and multitasking
I don’t think he qualifies or comes close here. Just off my head, the E.Gs I know qualify for this have done leaps and bounds beyond what he did and unlike him, you don’t need interpretations and hyperbole to get there for them.

Does “performed a better move in Tsukishiro’s opinion than a chess engine” and “was certain he never met Arisu because he doesn’t recall her and he isn’t missing any memories” really even come close here?

Executing complex strategies even under high pressure
Accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculation

He’s capable of both, but to a level that’s far beneath Dazai’s. So I don’t know what the benchmark level would be here

With this I can say I’ve made my case completely. I hope a staff or someone more versed on what E.G constitutes looks at the evidence and discussions presented in this thread and decides. I’d remind everyone this is as much about “what does extraordinary genius as defined and applied constitute” as it’s about what Ayanokouji is capable of.

Cheers everyone.

 

[RoggerReggor]

If that’s the case, than Ayanokouji doesn’t come close to meeting E.G criteria. Then what are we arguing about? Normal Dazai would eat Ayanokouji for breakfast. And Ayanokouji never invented anything, let alone reality warping.

I am sorry I wrote it wrong. I meant to say Dazai is not an S.G. (Supergenius), and not an "E.G." there.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I would cook kouji in a chess match

 

[RoggerReggor]

I love how even though the scan says that Ayanokouji says that there are certain information he can’t memorize, you changed it to recall….

Ayanokouji himself said he doesn’t remember the exact number, and we know he did remember it Y1V11.5. Those are facts, not interpretations.

Ayanokouji chooses what to commit to long term memory and what to discard. he discards useless information. Him “erasing” Yuki from his memory is something completely different, he lived with her for half of his life every day. He can’t remove her from his LTM, he simply blocked those memories. But when she says who she is, he remembered.

Well, but the Y1V11 feat itself has Kiyotaka mentioning "I wasn't missing any of the memories.", meaning that this all will be wrong and he is confident about remembering everything required to remember Arisu, which is, quite literally everything up to that point of his life.

I said it’s on unrelated note. Shiro is a genius within the context of COTE.

She is his equal in classical chess, which isn’t his specialty.

Year 1 Volume 11:

Translating chess ELO for you. “We’d go 5-5 in a match series” => means they are practically the same ELO.

This is wrong and correct at the same time.

At the time of the statement, they would be equal, but Kiyotaka developed past her mid-game and then did the move which we are talking about. It has already been mentioned.

In the matches afterwards, Arisu lost.

Similarly, her Y2V4 Visualization is used to upscale Ayanokouji’s VSI.

This is just false. Kiyotaka upscales her in VSI due to the simulation up to the area 12 which is his own feat and not due to Arisu's feat. Get your facts clear.

Does it?

My Speech-to-Text recorded it wrong and compressed it to being understandable.

I meant to say that the Old Maid's possibilities visualization feat demolishes FMA in WMI and Takuya's tablet feat is exemplary for PSI against FMA (both outscale).

Valid, but beyond tearing down the definition and seeing who was considered a genius and who was considered an extraordinary genius we have no tools to determine which should Kouji take.

To me, Kouji is not meaningfully smarter than L, no. He gaps in knowledge, but that’s not intelligence.

Kiyotaka gaps in almost everything against L related to Intelligence concepts imo. L isn't a polymath like Kiyotaka, his best crys. intel. comes with his detective feats and Fluid intel is due to the matrix reasonings he has. Both aren't comparable and will never be.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

To me, Kouji is not meaningfully smarter than L, no. He gaps in knowledge, but that’s not intelligence.

Reggor beat me to this but I also wanted to point out Koji gaps L in both intelligence and outsmarting so I certainly disagree with this.

Kiyotaka gaps in almost everything against L related to Intelligence concepts imo. L isn't a polymath like Kiyotaka, his best crys. intel. comes with his detective feats and Fluid intel is due to the matrix reasonings he has. Both aren't comparable and will never be.

General Intelligence - Koji gaps in Crystallized which shouldn't be a shock due to his polymath status. He also gaps in Fluid Intelligence due to his better problem solving, better reasoning (yes he clearly takes from L), and better learning ability.

He gaps in Intelligence concepts if you use Gardner Theory categories.

His emotional intelligence is so far ahead it is disrespectful to compare them and the same for social intelligence.

This is a No Diff over L in terms of Intelligence so claiming he isn't meaningfully above seems silly to me.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

As someone who deals with combat intelligence a lot... that ain't EG combat intelligence.

I've seen some bs EG feats and have even contributed in giving a character EG in combat recently, this sure as hell isn't even CLOSE to EG. It'd be an insult to even call it even at least genius.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

the ReZero "Gifted" characters vs Kouji "EG" stat equal would be the funniest of skillstomps

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Equal stats Kid Goku vs Ayano would be so goddamn hilarious. Koji deadass would get skillstomped by Yamcha