Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

[Worthless]

How do we know that the machines he was talking about was a high-powered chess engine?

To suggest he prepared a bunch of normal machines against someone he considered a not human is a move very unlikely of Tsukishiro

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

To suggest he prepared a bunch of normal machines against someone he considered a not human is a move very unlikely of Tsukishiro

That's just speculation. Other than just litteral guesses, there's no proof that he actually used a high-powered chess engine like Stockfish against Ayano.

In the anime, there isn't even a single mention of it, we just see some dudes sitting around some computers analyzing the game.

You do know that machines can refer to other stuff outside of chess engines, right? And from the looks of it, there were plenty of computers, aka machines, there. Unless you can actually provide proof that when he said "machines" he meant extremely high-powered chess engines, then there's no proof of him refering to actual chess engines other than just speculation

And again, the other girl is at MOST a grandmaster level player, and Ayano was struggling with her, with him admitting that he was legit having trouble dealing with her. Bro was getting pressed by a maybe grandmaster, but we're saying he's above supercomputers in chess playing ability?

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

AIZEN SOLOS.

Agree

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

To suggest he prepared a bunch of normal machines against someone he considered a not human is a move very unlikely of Tsukishiro

Also consider that being set in the future even "average" computers would likely be better than top of the line ones from today. This much is obvious given how quickly computing technology improves

That's just speculation. Other than just litteral guesses, there's no proof that he actually used a high-powered chess engine like Stockfish against Ayano.

In the anime, there isn't even a single mention of it, we just see some dudes sitting around some computers analyzing the game.

You do know that machines can refer to other stuff outside of chess engines, right? And from the looks of it, there were plenty of computers, aka machines, there. Unless you can actually provide proof that when he said "machines" he meant extremely high-powered chess engines, then there's no proof of him refering to actual chess engines other than just speculation

And again, the other girl is at MOST a grandmaster level player, and Ayano was struggling with her, with him admitting that he was legit having trouble dealing with her. Bro was getting pressed by a maybe grandmaster, but we're saying he's above supercomputers in chess playing ability?

This point holds true here, and in the context of an EG rating we don't need to speculate on exact specifics of the engine. For reference computing power of technology has doubled every 2-3 years since around 2000 so its actually likely that any "average" computer used by Tsukishiro could have 4x or more computing than anything existing today. While Chess engines aren't increasing at that same rate they are also improving over time and access to more computing power aids this by allowing them to calculate faster and at higher depth.

As for whether he used stockfish there isn't a specific mention of it, but given how it's the most popular and widely used engine in the world it certainly makes sense. Given it's accessibility, unless you want to argue that Tsukishiro went out of his way to use a weaker engine Stockfish is the minimum level of engine he would use, not the maximum.

 

[Worthless]

Bro was STRESSING against her, and she has no feats suggesting anything superhuman at all.

When did this happen? I remember they had a rematch after the competition where no one named Tsukishiro interrupted, only for Arisu to lose completely (watch the post credits scene)

That's just speculation. Other than just litteral guesses, there's no proof that he actually used a high-powered chess engine like Stockfish against Ayano.

Are you saying he is some third-rate villain to not make such a preparation at that level ? Really ? He’s literally the person why we have a jack of all trades Ayanokoji and is the same dude that handles all the dirty business like it's a natural thing to do.

In the anime, there isn't even a single mention of it, we just see some dudes sitting around some computers analyzing the game.

That's just how anime works lol. They don’t need to split it out like the novel did because the visuals alone convey it.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Chess is a LOT about memory btw yall and considering how Ayanokouji is, he would be a top tier player just by analysing hundreds of thousands of games just like any chess master does

 

[RoggerReggor]

Following. I will address this in about half a day. I have a huge exam coming up, and this has to be the worst day for it.

Also, using the anime for chess feat is dumb. We have described it many times and now, it's just internet dudes trying to find a reason for them being smarter than Kiyotaka. The anime is just secondary canon, it is used for only timeframes for fight scenes or any additional information as long as it connects with the LN in any way. If two scenes differ greatly, then LN needs to be prioritized, and the wiki is using

Also, saying that just because Kiyotaka has high learning ability due to Photographic Memory and that, Photographic Memory isn't really intelligence (even though it is and it has been helpful in outsmarting scenarios of him, but scrap that thought for once), would mean that you will be discarding that fact that he will still need to apply process to his learning efficiency and it's not just "memorizing", and that, this would mean that you are arguing that every potential Photographic Memory user is somehow a person who can improve upon their own learning speed.

Let me show how badly this argument is crafted:

• If you believe that Photographic Memory would make it easy to memorize something and then apply it to your own body and learn it fast, then this is absolutely bad. You would need Bodily Kinesthetic (an intelligence subset upon many Intelligence concepts including Gardener's theory and also inclusive in the Learning Speed on FRI or Fluid Reasoning Index for Weschler's Adult's Scale for Intelligence or WASI), Learning Speed itself (sub-cat for WASI), VSI in purely physical learning (again, a sub-cat for WASI), then learning efficiency and even adaptability, which is all intelligence.
• In short, you will need to prove that every Photographic Memory user can somehow learn things as fast as Kiyotaka, BY JUST being a Photographic Memory user.

Funnily, you may as well have the memory enough to memorize things, like you can basically memorize the moves of a dancer, but you will end up taking days

Sure, this thread may prove that Kiyotaka is not a natural genius, and he isn't, but the story of V0 itself revolves around him being an "adaptive" genius, which is again, a genius, and by that, he has demolished even those who are in the ranges of being a natural genius, like Arisu (who is narratively said to have a superior DNA and therefore was researched to be a genius), or Ichika (who again is said to be a genius). Being a "genius" is context-dependent, sure, but here, it's not a character being narcissistic or some character applauding some character out of pity, but adults (who are literal researchers) being amazed of a kid being overpowered and delivering a concrete narrative.

If you were to use that mental age statement, then earlier IQ concepts use the formula (Mental Age/Subject Age)*100, junior high students are 12-13 years old and considering the "by the time statement", I will use the lower (and it is basically lower than that), and the 20 to 30 mental age statement, the raw IQ would be 25/12*100 = 208 IQ (standard IQ measures use 145 as low-end genius generally and above 160 as higher geniuses), and funnily, this is for a normal White Room subject, and this was when White Room was just figuring out the programs for the Gen 4 (Kiyotaka's generation), it went on to become progressively better as it proceeded, and therefore, a normal subject would of course have better results than this at full efficiency, not to mention that Kiyotaka transcended all of them, did a program which is narratively said to create a "monster" compared to other geniuses, and something which was beyond just normal child torture (which was still described to be the human limit of endurance at a much lower level of the program itself). And all of it is accepted in his profile. Aside from his intelligence section, he has a bible-esque feats-section.

But again, for this thread itself, I will just need to get Kiyotaka above William James Sidis by a huge margin for him to be an Extraordinary Genius (which is very easy tbh), so choose any IQ system, I would prefer Weschler's Adult scale, I would use the sub-cats as Visual-Spatial, Fluid Reasoning, Working Memory + Processing Speed (Cognitive Proficiency) and Verbal Comprehension, can be searched by a single Wikipedia search.

I will also use about 3 of his strategies to prove its inherent complexity along with its 100% success rate in maximum scenarios and its efficiency, and get his future predictions, reading abilities and also, his brain processing speed, for which, I will use Memory Recollection feats.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

You might just have to explain this to me like I'm 5 because I really don't see how that makes his feat valid, if anything that just confirms that he could outsmart computers because you pointed it out yourself that they have trouble calculating some moves due to its range and could fall into traps. Humans outsmart computers frequently, the olympic athlete comparison doesn't work because what olympic athletes do isn't possible for normal people. No regular average joe is clocking in at 27 mph like Usain Bolt. No everyday person is preforming a 10/10 dive. I never said that making a better chess move was something any novice 300 ELO player could do, I'm saying that it's something high-level chess playing humans do all the time and thus shouldn't be good justification for Extraordinary Genius.

So here the comp is that Olympic Athletes are among the best in the World at what they do, the chess equivalent are GMs or even SuperGMs. My point was that not just anyone can make a move better than an engine (intentionally) and any players of such a level could. I'll explain the point about engines falling into traps and why it makes the comp not accurate for Ayanokouji's feat. I'll try and simplify as much as possible to make sure I get the point across.

Due to the differences in how engines vs humans think there are different things which confuse engines vs what confuses humans. This is because like I said in the earlier post, engines don't have access to pattern recognition like humans do. It doesn't matter to a computer if it's seen a position before once or millions of times. It still has to either evaluate it or search it in a tablebase. Chess puzzles which stump engines are very often based around this principle which makes it almost impossible for engines to solve while possible for humans. It is also possible to make moves that an engine would have a hard time understanding. This is again possible by understanding how engines think. The reason these are important to consider is because it isn't the case for Ayanokouji's move. The position was just in the course of a game, not a chess puzzle. Furthermore, his move wasn't designed to confuse an engine as he didn't even know an engine was being used until after the game ended. It is also important to point out that as seen in the LN, Ayanokouji was calculating lines and planning moves in advance during this stage of the game. So he made calculations about his moves leading to a move the engine didn't find it its calculation. This is why the feat is impressive in terms of his intelligence.

If making just one move better than a supercomputer puts you above the supercomputer, then give Garry an Extraordinary Genius rating because he outsmarted the worlds most advanced chess computer at the time and won against it. How is that not classified as outsmarting a supercomputer but making just 1 move better than one is? If he doesn't classify for extraordinary genius off of litteraly winning against a powerful chess computer, I don't see why Ayano making a singular move better than it would count, even if the engine he's facing is better than Deep Blue.

This is wrong for 2 main reasons. First, making 1 move better than the computer isn't what qualifies Ayanokouji as EG, it is just "part" of why. That combined with him being a polymath, his ability to predict the future via calculation, his ability to execute complex strategies under high pressure and more all combine to grant him that rating. It isn't just the chess feat. Second, Deep Blue is VASTLY weaker than chess computers today. In terms of engine strength, it is not nearly as advanced as current software which can analyze more positions much more efficiently and accurately. Added to the fact that your cell phone has over 1000 times the computing power of Deep Blue so it's not nearly as impressive.

Also again, you need to actually prove that he was facing a Stockfish level supercomputer. The only suggestion that there was even a chess computer involved in the first place was Ayano's dad saying "we had machines." What machines? Chess engines? Computers? In the anime that isn't even brought up, we just see a room of chess experts sitting around analyzing the game. Hell, Ayano has admitted before that he was being pressed by the one girl I forgot the name of, who is at most Grandmaster level, and that's being generous. Bro was STRESSING against her, and she has no feats suggesting anything superhuman at all.

Plus as Phoenks said earlier, being good at chess doesn't automatically translate to IQ. The 2nd best chess player alive has an IQ of 102. I have a higher IQ than that, yet he would slap the everloving god out of me in chess 1000/1000 games. Even if he's peak human in chess, that doesn't prove that he's suddenly peak human in intelligence.

Stockfish isn't a computer, its a program. You can run it on just about anything including your cell phone without issue. So while we can't determine the exact nature of the computers, that isn't relevant since what we do know is more than enough. The future timeline means that are at a minimum equal to top end computers of today given how quickly technology advances. This could EASILY be argued to be higher but that isn't necessary. High end computers running the most common and most accessible engine is stockfish and that is why it is the most likely.

As for being good at chess correlated to IQ that was NEVER the point. The point was his calculations regarding his best move showcase an ability to outperform a computer which is one of the points in the EG definition. Therefore him doing so is a valid piece of evidence for his EG rating.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Following. I will address this in about half a day. I have a huge exam coming up, and this has to be the worst day for it.

Glad to see you are following.

 

[RoggerReggor]

As for being good at chess correlated to IQ that was NEVER the point. The point was his calculations regarding his best move showcase an ability to outperform a computer which is one of the points in the EG definition. Therefore him doing so is a valid piece of evidence for his EG rating.

If we are using Hikaru as an example, then we would have to regard the fact that Hikaru has been playing chess for 31 years.

If the argument is basically that Kiyotaka is better than professionals who may be or may not be comparable to Hikaru (102 IQ, average intelligence), then we CANNOT disregard that they have been playing chess for a huge part of their life (about 20 or more years or even 31 in the case of Hikaru), which is being compared to Kiyotaka's 1 or 2 years of experience and he was demolishing them.

Just because GothamChess argument was used before, we need to see that GothamChess has publicly uploaded chess videos on the internet and even the ones from his childhood, meaning that you can compare them. Arisu mentioned about 8 years gap (when she saw Kiyotaka playing chess) from their ages at the time of talk, which would be 15, do the math and you get 7 years. GothamChess at 7 years of age, was not even intermediate level (<1100 ELO), considering that Levy has been playing chess since he was 5. That's where the difference lies ultimately.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

If we are using Hikaru as an example, then we would have to regard the fact that Hikaru has been playing chess for 31 years.

If the argument is basically that Kiyotaka is better than professionals who may be or may not be comparable to Hikaru (102 IQ, average intelligence), then we CANNOT disregard that they have been playing chess for a huge part of their life (about 20 or more years or even 31 in the case of Hikaru), which is being compared to Kiyotaka's 1 or 2 years of experience and he was demolishing them.

Just because GothamChess argument was used before, we need to see that GothamChess has publicly uploaded chess videos on the internet and even the ones from his childhood, meaning that you can compare them. Arisu mentioned about 8 years gap (when she saw Kiyotaka playing chess) from their ages at the time of talk, which would be 15, do the math and you get 7 years. GothamChess at 7 years of age, was not even intermediate level (<1100 ELO), considering that Levy has been playing chess since he was 5. That's where the difference lies ultimately.

For reference here is a list of the youngest GMs in the world ranking how old they were when they got the GM title. The youngest is 12 years and 4 months. Ayanokouji destroying GMs at age 7 is already showing his intelligence and adaptability in his ability to improve at a young age. Especially given that he is well above GM rating 5 years before the youngest GM in the world got his title.

https://www.chess.com/article/view/youngest-chess-grandmasters

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I love how this is just a chess debate now but nobody has even mentioned cagnus marlsen

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

cagnus marlsen

My favorite checkers player of all time

 

[wwereymy235]

My favorite checkers player of all time

I thought he was a shogi player??

 

[Robo432343]

Chess is a LOT about memory btw

literally any professional chess player would disagree with this

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

literally any professional chess player would disagree with this

Pattern recognition, puzzles etc.
As a chess play i can definitely say that it helps to know every single opening to a 20 move depth
Anyways, Levy Rozman and Hikaru have both stated that chess after a certain level is all about pattern recognition, although yes strategy and tactics also play a part in this

 

[Robo432343]

Pattern recognition, puzzles etc.
As a chess play i can definitely say that it helps to know every single opening to a 20 move depth
Anyways, Levy Rozman and Hikaru have both stated that chess after a certain level is all about pattern recognition, although yes strategy and tactics also play a part in this

so if there are 2 players who played a 100 move game, are you saying most of those 100 moves are going to be based on memory????
no
most of the time, they are thinking on their own after like move 10
memorization does play a role in chess but saying chess is a LOT about memory is not true

 

[RoggerReggor]

Huntsman having to debate the chess feat for the 108385767238th time and realizing that he's getting the same points:

Anyways,

Pattern recognition, puzzles etc.
As a chess play i can definitely say that it helps to know every single opening to a 20 move depth
Anyways, Levy Rozman and Hikaru have both stated that chess after a certain level is all about pattern recognition, although yes strategy and tactics also play a part in this

No, this isn't applicable to this and would be severe derailing even if we were to debate this. Kiyotaka was consistently fighting opponents and becoming better with time. Let's say if he beats a guy, then a stronger guy would appear, and so on. He narratively mentioned that Arisu was better than all of his past opponents, meaning that Arisu was having a better knowledge/power in the game, and we can see that Kiyotaka was still dominating her for a part of the game, though she was also having an equal part, Kiyotaka easily developed past her and to the point where he was thinking of moves better than chess engines.

It would be difficult or basically impossible to argue that Kiyotaka was actually doing stuff due to his memorization power.

Also, I also have found all the necessary scans where Kiyotaka himself is roasting those who do the learning due to pure memorization and therefore, the entire context of the learning ability "debunk" in this thread would be unrelated to it.

I will also mention that this entire thread uses a single theory given by an in-novel character about Kiyotaka probably doing the stuff through his memory. In fact, the character himself mentions later on that if Kiyotaka was doing everything based on memorization, he would be facing heavy consequences for that and would fail later on (which he canonically never does). Or is using the fact that he's consistently referred to as an "artificial genius" or the "false genius" as Arisu herself said, which she herself conceded on and accepted to being proven wrong.

I will get my response ready as said.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

so if there are 2 players who played a 100 move game, are you saying most of those 100 moves are going to be based on memory????
no
most of the time, they are thinking on their own after like move 10
memorization does play a role in chess but saying chess is a LOT about memory is not true

Yes, in fact most moves and tactics are repeatable. This is also why most GMs don't make blunders
The entire point of puzzles is to train your tactics memory

 

[Robo432343]

Yes, in fact most moves and tactics are repeatable.

This is not true at all for top level chess, for 800 elo chess it probably is
Chess is a highly dynamic game where the position constantly evolves. Even similar-looking positions can require different strategies and tactics due to subtle differences in the board setup or the players' intentions.

The sheer number of possible positions and moves in chess makes it extremely difficult to memorize every potential scenario. Even experienced players must rely on their understanding of the game's principles and their ability to adapt to new situations, not just memorize

This is also why most GMs don't make blunders

HUH??? even the strongest Super GM's makes blunders
why tf do you think chess players lose games??

The entire point of puzzles is to train your tactics memory

dude thats chess puzzles
not an actual chess game

 

[Livinmeme]

The sheer number of possible positions and moves in chess makes it extremely difficult to memorize every potential scenario. Even experienced players must rely on their understanding of the game's principles and their ability to adapt to new situations.

Kinda true, but if it was totally true, then fisher wouldn't had quitted chess due to feeling like it was becoming an exercise of memorization, instead of planning and improvization

 

[Phoenks]

Ayanokouji studied a vast number of topics while in the White Room. The curriculum was constantly expanding and by age 5 he was already learning topics such as Mathematics, languages, natural and physical sciences, economics, and political science. We also know the topics of the White Room covered everything taught at ANHS while Ayanokouji was still a child. As such, Ayanokouji has a Graduate level education in a vast array of subjects which certainly qualifies as knowledge spreading over multiple fields, it is also important to note that even as a child his knowledge in each specific field was so great that "world class" instructors felt the need to leave the WR since they could not longer teach him anything.

The human upper limit in terms of the WR curriculum is directly stated to be level 5. Anything higher than that has a 100% failure rate with Ayanokouji as the sole exception. This combined with his perfect memory, which is clearly different from a standard photographic memory, and his stated genetic mutation which allowed for him to succeed.

For the first thing, it is definitely safe to say that Ayanokouji is highly knowledgeable in various fields based on this information, similar to a University Graduate, but obviously, he remembers all of what he learned much more effortlessly. This is a good feat for his knowledge.

Combining it with this second part, it becomes even more impressive. However, what I don't agree with is that Level 5 is the "human upper limit." The context suggests that Level 5 is not beyond human capabilities, but rather, it is simply too difficult for the students at the school to handle. Overall, the language used here is too vague for me to say it surpasses the capabilities of peak humans in the real world. Not to mention, it is ever demonstrated what these Level 5, 6, etc courses include? Is there any further detail on that?

As for him memory, his classification here as Photographic Memory isn’t consistent with its applications in the novels. He as the ability to actively manage which memories are recalled at will, he can organize his thoughts and memories to stop people from being able to cold read him, and his absorption of information is subconscious. Using the claim that his memory is merely photographic and that his basis of E.G. is grounded solely in that is both disingenuous and a strawman. Additionally claiming that Ayanokouji having a Perfect Memory makes his intelligence less valid is laughable ridiculous. This statement's lack of logical consistency is clear when we use it in other contexts. Having a power/ability can and does allow characters to qualify for different tiering and all of a sudden claiming that isn't true would be a blatant attempt to downgrade here under false pretenses.

It is extremely difficult for you to argue this when the series itself makes it clear that was separates Ayanokouji from other geniuses is this supernatural capability of his to remember everything, recall everything, and never forget anything.

I am not being disingenuous, nor am I straw-manning you. Having the capability to subconsciously absorb all information given to you makes learning things quickly and developing as fast as Ayanokouji does a lot less impressive. Like I mentioned before, a normal human with this capability would naturally far exceed other humans because of this as well. Memory plays a huge role in every area of human endeavor, because almost any "skill" is the product of repetition in order to burn a process into your mind.

Also, again, I will say I am not trying to dismiss Kouji because of this. All I am saying is that many of his feats, such as him learning languages and martial arts at four years old are made significantly less impressive by this fact. (Moreover, research suggests that children up through 5 years old can learn and process up to 5 languages simultaneously [Source], so this might not even be that ridiculous in general. In fact, children at this age are far faster learners that older children and adults)

I do acknowledge that the knowledge acquired by having this ability, as well as being able to apply what you learn, are still very legitimate feats.

While Ayanokouji isn’t developing futuristic technology, he has shown many times that he can execute complex strategies even under high pressure. Escaping the White Room, Island Strategy, Paper Shuffle Strategy, Overall X Strategy, Knife Strategy with Housen, Second Island Exam, Voting Exam, and more.

I'd need more detail on why these feats are as impressive as you believe.

As for outperforming supercomputers there is the Chess Computer feat but VSBW defines this as such: “Outperforming supercomputers" is here used as an umbrella term for the ability to perform extremely advanced thought processes such as calculations and multitasking. Under this definition his aforementioned Perfect Memory encompasses this via his full memory recall feat (PMH) during V5. Here Ayanokouji, in an instant, searches his entire life’s memories for any trace of Arisu after she claims to know about him and the White Room. This is also supported by him in Y2V11 where he again references thinking through all his memories of his school life so far in that instant. Both cases show his extremely advanced through process through this massive amount of data management. While unlike the Chess Feat this isn’t a “calculation” it is representative of his thought process and his multitasking given his ability to do this during a normal conversation.

As Primal mentioned, the Chess Machine feat is not as impressive as you think. Not only is it not a supercomputer, but he only played one move better than it. This is possible in the real world and happens all the time.

You don't need to have better calculations than a computer to make a better move than it anyway. Human calculation is far different from computer calculation. Humans are much more efficient, actually. Grandmasters don't need to go through millions of possibilities to find the best moves (or something relative to that).

Trying to use him making a better move than a computer one time as some demonstration of outperforming computers and having absurd calculation/processing as a result is extremely silly.

As for the latter half, him using his ability to search his mind isn't a demonstration of anything in regards to calculations and multitasking, lol. It is just another feat for his Perfect Memory, which, again, is an ability.

Even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations – Ayanokouji not only has multiple highly accurate prediction feats doing exactly this, but he also has a direct statement where he says he does this.

This is the result of planning for the possibilities. What Kouji does is quite applicable to the real world as well. Using previously absorbed information to predict what will happen and how people will act is not some supernatural capability like that is required by EG. This happens in reality too.




Overall, I do agree that the current intelligence section is a massive low-ball of Ayanokouji, but I still don't see him as being anything more than a Genius.

In the new intelligence section, you should mention these feats above everything else.

 

[Phoenks]

Chess is a LOT about memory btw yall and considering how Ayanokouji is, he would be a top tier player just by analysing hundreds of thousands of games just like any chess master does

By the way this is actually extremely correct.

One of the first things anyone will ever tell you once you understand chess is that you need to "memorize openings." This is one of the most fundamental aspects of the entire game. Being able to memorize more positions grants you an ABSURD advantage over your opponent. It isn't just about being able to memorize, of course, but having that memory makes you far greater at the game.

Referencing Gotham Chess, he states that memory plays a huge part in what separates Magnus Carlson from others as well.

I thought this was a pretty basic idea, anyway.

Obviously chess isn't just about memory though.

 

[Livinmeme]

By the way this is actually extremely correct.

One of the first things anyone will ever tell you once you understand chess is that you need to "memorize openings." This is one of the most fundamental aspects of the entire game. Being able to memorize more positions grants you an ABSURD advantage over your opponent. It isn't just about being able to memorize, of course, but having that memory makes you far greater at the game.

Referencing Gotham Chess, he states that memory plays a huge part in what separates Magnus Carlson from others as well.

I thought this was a pretty basic idea, anyway.

Obviously chess isn't just about memory though.

To be fair, this is the same guy who was able to do this to a 200+ elo, while drunk, extremely casualy, and singing, even when he was several points in material

 

[Robo432343]

One of the first things anyone will ever tell you once you understand chess is that you need to "memorize openings." This is one of the most fundamental aspects of the entire game. Being able to memorize more positions grants you an ABSURD advantage over your opponent. It isn't just about being able to memorize, of course, but having that memory makes you far greater at the game.

its only like10-15 moves of memorization in the opening stage, although it does depend on the opening the player chooses

the rest of the game you are thinking on your own

 

[Phoenks]

its only 10-15 moves of memorization in the opening stage, although it does depend on the opening the player chooses

the rest of the game you are thinking on your own

Imagine if you could memorize every chess position like Shiro.

For you it would be as if the entire game was just an opening sequence you already knew all the answers to.

Memory, no doubt, could conquer chess.

 

[Robo432343]

Imagine if you could memorize every chess position like Shiro.

For you it would be as if the entire game was just an opening sequence you already knew all the answers to.

Memory, no doubt, could conquer chess.

how is this relevant at all??? Shiro plays chess based on memory while Koji had to make moves on his own, not just memorize. They are different

i agree with a lot of you said in this thread, about how the computer koji faced is vague and all that, but the point is that there are way more important aspects than memorization in chess. Memorization helps you in the first 10-15 moves of opening theory but after that you are all on your own

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

how is this relevant at all??? Shiro plays chess based on memory while Koji had to make moves on his own, not just memorize. They are different

i agree with a lot of you said in this thread, about how the computer koji faced is vague and all that, but the point is that there are way more important aspects than memorization in chess. Memorization helps you in the first 10-15 moves of opening theory but after that you are all on your own

That's where positional memory comes into play, the more games you play the more positions you have played through. A lot of the time, the younger player loses to the older player due to the older one having experience. In kouji's case he remembers EVERY game he has ever played. Every single trick, tactics or strategy he has ever seen is available to him at the tip of his finger.
Honestly it would harder to lose with that kind of advantage
We also know about Tyson who got to 1900 is like a year's time by just bruteforcing it, now imagine someone like that with Perfect memory.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Not really involving in a debate here, but since I’m a good chess player myself, I’ll just say that basic skills of playing chess would be enough to beat professional players if you have Perfect Memory and have prepared to the match. Yes, applying this memory to the game takes intelligence, but really, really basic one, nothing impressive.
CRT looks good btw, I agree.

 

[Robo432343]

That's where positional memory comes into play, the more games you play the more positions you have played through. A lot of the time, the younger player loses to the older player due to the older one having experience

i addressed this here

This is not true at all for top level chess, for 800 elo chess it probably is
Chess is a highly dynamic game where the position constantly evolves. Even similar-looking positions can require different strategies and tactics due to subtle differences in the board setup or the players' intentions.

The sheer number of possible positions and moves in chess makes it extremely difficult to memorize every potential scenario. Even experienced players must rely on their understanding of the game's principles and their ability to adapt to new situations, not just memorize

who tf cares if you can memorize a similar position that you had in 2005? sure it can help but the position will still be different. even the slightest of changes in position can affect the game, that's why people don't play the same move just because they recall a similar position

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Did Koji prepare for that chess game or no? That’s pretty important tbh.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Did Koji prepare for that chess game or no? That’s pretty important tbh.

He didn't. He himself stated that Arisu was better than all the opponents he had faced and it was basically the first game they had played ever, and also, he was facing stronger and stronger opponents. Sure, chess is dependent on memory, but not when you are facing stronger and stronger opponents every time. We cannot even compare both scenarios. Kiyotaka was improving in-battle and making strategies of his own. He was also visualizing many moves into the future mid-game, and was constantly adapting to Arisu, to the point where he just adapted to Arisu where he outcalculated a literal chess engine.

Source: Y1V11.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

He didn't. He himself stated that Arisu was better than all the opponents he had faced and it was basically the first game they had played ever, and also, he was facing stronger and stronger opponents. Sure, chess is dependent on memory, but not when you are facing stronger and stronger opponents every time. We cannot even compare both scenarios. Kiyotaka was improving in-battle and making strategies of his own. He was also visualizing many moves into the future mid-game, and was constantly adapting to Arisu, to the point where he just adapted to Arisu where he outcalculated a literal chess engine.

Source: Y1V11.

Thank you

I disagree with the thread then

 

[RoggerReggor]

how is this relevant at all??? Shiro plays chess based on memory while Koji had to make moves on his own, not just memorize. They are different

i agree with a lot of you said in this thread, about how the computer koji faced is vague and all that, but the point is that there are way more important aspects than memorization in chess. Memorization helps you in the first 10-15 moves of opening theory but after that you are all on your own

True. They don't.

This is plenty of a misinformation. As an NGNL scaler myself, Shiro didn't memorize all of the chess positions by observing them, she basically processed them all (it is evident in the novel), for which, you will need to process 10^120 positions in a very less time and unlike Kiyotaka, she beat a chess engine for 20 times in a row, which isn't even comparable to Kiyotaka, it's just pure massacre. She, by feats, has infinite processing speed, so no shock here.

But again, Shiro couldn't see a narratively mediocre trap because she thought that her opponent couldn't be that dumb.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

For the first thing, it is definitely safe to say that Ayanokouji is highly knowledgeable in various fields based on this information, similar to a University Graduate, but obviously, he remembers all of what he learned much more effortlessly. This is a good feat for his knowledge.

Combining it with this second part, it becomes even more impressive. However, what I don't agree with is that Level 5 is the "human upper limit." The context suggests that Level 5 is not beyond human capabilities, but rather, it is simply too difficult for the students at the school to handle. Overall, the language used here is too vague for me to say it surpasses the capabilities of peak humans in the real world. Not to mention, it is ever demonstrated what these Level 5, 6, etc courses include? Is there any further detail on that?

I’m glad you agree for the first part, I should have also mentioned that graduate level is the floor for Ayanokouji’s knowledge. Given that he was studying Graduate level courses by age 5-6 and was in the WR for 10 more years, and since the curriculum only got faster over time this much should be obvious.

As for the Human limit part, I’ll provide more context. That scan was from the perspective of Suzukake, who is the person who developed the WR curriculum. He is discussing how the 10 levels were designed, which was to test this very idea. What is the human limit for the curriculum. Now to your point about this information being possible to learn, just not by a child, which makes it less impressive. That is an incorrect evaluation of the WR curriculum. It isn’t just about being able to do this as a child or not, it’s about being able to maintain all that knowledge. While we don’t have much information about the specific curriculum of level 6-10 which were the levels deemed impossible and above human limits, we do know about level 4 (5th generation students did this) and the beta curriculum Koji did and we know 6-10 fall in between these. The main differences are the speed at which subjects are taught and how much they are expected to learn at once.

As for comparing this to “peak human” even the 5th gen students get very close to this and the 4th gen surpasses it by a lot. Peak Human Intelligence would be a polymath, someone who is highly adept in a variety of topics. 5th gen students reach this point by age 11-12, studying graduate level courses in their wide array of subjects. Unlike normal people who study just one or two subjects at this level, the WR continuously raises the difficulty over time until reaching this point. So by age 12 even the 5th gen has made its surviving students into polymaths + physical training. The 4th gen did this by age 5-6 with its students surpassing that peak human status after that. Since he has been mentioned before in this thread, we can refer to William James Sidis as an example of peak human which hasn’t been surpassed IRL.

But again, for this thread itself, I will just need to get Kiyotaka above William James Sidis by a huge margin for him to be an Extraordinary Genius (which is very easy tbh), so choose any IQ system, I would prefer Weschler's Adult scale, I would use the sub-cats as Visual-Spatial, Fluid Reasoning, Working Memory + Processing Speed (Cognitive Proficiency) and Verbal Comprehension, can be searched by a single Wikipedia search.

I will let Reggor comment on this more later but I will also address it here. Sidis learned many languages by a young age, learned advanced mathematics and other advanced subjects. By age 11 he reached Undergraduate level and enrolled in Harvard to continue his studies. So, William James Sidis lines up exactly with the WR levels determined to be at and above the human limits. He would likely be equivalent to around level 5 curriculum. Comparing how they both learned multiple languages very young, learned multiple advanced topics quickly, and reached university level around age 11. As these stages continue to accelerate they go beyond the human limit at level 6 which was directly stated by Suzukake and matches what the example of peak human would be, and then Koji absolutely destroys this progress. This is why his WR education validly fulfills the vastly surpassing the real world human limits.

It is extremely difficult for you to argue this when the series itself makes it clear that was separates Ayanokouji from other geniuses is this supernatural capability of his to remember everything, recall everything, and never forget anything.

No, it isn’t difficult to argue that his Perfect memory is different from photographic memory. You are continuing to base your downgrade arguments around the idea that his memory makes his Intelligence feats less impressive, and that is something I strongly disagree with.

I don’t actually understand why you don’t agree with his memory being different from photographic given even your own points have his memory different from it. Otherwise, anyone with a photographic memory should be able to achieve results similar to Ayanokouji IRL, but that clearly isn’t the case. You are arguing that his memory is so advanced that he has feats above human limits only possible via his memory, but also claim his memory is not significantly different from a photographic memory. To be clear, I am arguing that Ayanokouji's Perfect Memory > Photographic Memory.

I am not being disingenuous, nor am I straw-manning you. Having the capability to subconsciously absorb all information given to you makes learning things quickly and developing as fast as Ayanokouji does a lot less impressive. Like I mentioned before, a normal human with this capability would naturally far exceed other humans because of this as well. Memory plays a huge role in every area of human endeavor, because almost any "skill" is the product of repetition in order to burn a process into your mind.

Also, again, I will say I am not trying to dismiss Kouji because of this. All I am saying is that many of his feats, such as him learning languages and martial arts at four years old are made significantly less impressive by this fact. (Moreover, research suggests that children up through 5 years old can learn and process up to 5 languages simultaneously [Source], so this might not even be that ridiculous in general. In fact, children at this age are far faster learners that older children and adults)

I do acknowledge that the knowledge acquired by having this ability, as well as being able to apply what you learn, are still very legitimate feats.

Here I need to firmly point out that this is incorrect. You claim that a “normal human” with his memory achieve similar levels of intelligence to Ayanokouji which is false. His excellence stems from a combination of his Perfect memory and his inhuman adaptability. Both are genetic mutations in a sense and not “supernatural”. There is no evidence of the supernatural existing in COTE verse. So even if Ayanokouji wouldn’t be a genius without these mutations it doesn’t matter, since he has them.

Would Goku without his Saiyan lineage or Ki be weaker than he is otherwise???? Of course! But that doesn’t merit downscaling him on the basis that without them he is weaker. (pls don’t turn this into a Goku thread I’m just making a point)

The idea that Ayanokouji’s intelligence is based on these 2 factors doesn’t demerit his intelligence since he still had to learn everything he knows. It is irrelevant whether it was easier for him than it would be for a normal human. Furthermore you are making a contradictory argument regarding children's ability to learn more at a young age. You claim that because of that, Ayanokouji's learning as a child is less impressive because children can learn better than adults, but you also pointed out how his feats are "gifted for a child" but don't rise beyond the level of that. If learning is easier for children, like science has shown it is, then the fact that no other children could match anything close to him is very impressive.

All of this is definitely impressive for a child but none of it is really anything more than gifted intellect, especially considering he is literally gifted with perfect memory. He's just exceptionally prodigious.

Impressive for a child, no doubt, but again, this is simply prodigious levels of intelligence, and is heavily, heavily aided by him having perfect memory. It's another gifted feat on its own.

I'd need more detail on why these feats are as impressive as you believe.

I’ll make a separate post containing a summary of these feats to better explain them in more detail.

As Primal mentioned, the Chess Machine feat is not as impressive as you think. Not only is it not a supercomputer, but he only played one move better than it. This is possible in the real world and happens all the time.

You don't need to have better calculations than a computer to make a better move than it anyway. Human calculation is far different from computer calculation. Humans are much more efficient, actually. Grandmasters don't need to go through millions of possibilities to find the best moves (or something relative to that).

Trying to use him making a better move than a computer one time as some demonstration of outperforming computers and having absurd calculation/processing as a result is extremely silly.

As for the latter half, him using his ability to search his mind isn't a demonstration of anything in regards to calculations and multitasking, lol. It is just another feat for his Perfect Memory, which, again, is an ability.

As noted above, his perfect memory being an “ability” doesn’t demerit any of the feats related to it. As for the chess computer I made a post above further explaining why it serves as valid feat for the part of the definition regarding computers. As it also talks about this being scaled by high levels of calculation and multitasking which is absolutely achieved in his memory recall feats.

I will base my explanation on the assumption that you have no context from the LNs:

Ayanokouji’s perfect memory functions differently from normal forms of advanced memory. This is showcased many times throughout the series both by his memory feats and statements regarding his memory. A critical factor to consider regarding Ayanokouji’s Perfect Memory is how it operates passively. His memory operates normally on a subconscious level instead of a conscious one. This distinction can be seen in multiple different instances. We see his Perfect Memory work unconsciously beginning in V0 in his infancy. Even before Ayanokouji has any understanding of the world around him, he is retaining memories.



This is different from other forms of advanced memory which require conscious attention to retain information. Another key difference is his ability to control what information stored in his memory he recalls, normal memory can be triggered by certain thoughts, emotions, or other stimuli such as things you see or hear. However, Ayanokouji can both recall anything stored in his memory at will but can also choose to specifically not recall information if it doesn’t interest him.


Additionally, since we know that Ayanokouji can’t delete or remove information based on his attempts to do so with his memories of Yuki (V0) that means the information exists permanently in his memory. For things he doesn’t find interesting he makes no effort to recall them leading to him being “unable to remember” because he didn’t go through the process of recalling the memories.

With this understanding, we know that Ayanokouji searching his memories is both a conscious and intentional process in which he processes all the data stored in the memories he searches. Given how much information is stored in each of his memories, that is why his memory retrieval feat in Y1V5 is so impressive. He searches his life’s memories up to that point in an instant, years of memory, everything he has ever seen, heard, touched, learned, thought etc. was all processed in that instant. Such a feat of information processing certainly rises to the level of the VSBW definition here about calculation, and multitasking. Combined with his calculations during the chess feat as explained before they serve as qualifying evidence to support his EG rating.

This is the result of planning for the possibilities. What Kouji does is quite applicable to the real world as well. Using previously absorbed information to predict what will happen and how people will act is not some supernatural capability like that is required by EG. This happens in reality too.

Here it is actually the opposite of what you are saying. EG doesn’t require a supernatural ability to predict the future, rather that you do it via intelligence and through your understanding of how events will play out. You are correct that Ayanokouji’s predictions are not the results of a supernatural ability, and that is exactly why it is valid for EG. His predictions are a direct result of his intelligence and ability to calculate future possibilities. Aside from the scan I shared before showing him state that he can consider all the different possibilities of a situation to predict how it will end up, there are other prediction feats which support this.

Y1V6 predicting how the contents of a meeting regarding the special exam would play out based on his knowledge of the people there.



Another example would be him predicting the 5th question during the Unanimous Voting Exam in Y2V5 and using that to give Kei instructions in advance on what to do.

I'll work on another post to better explain some of the mentioned strategy feats above with context for people without knowledge of the source material LN. Expect that later today.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

So I read some of the earlier arguements. First off, nobody has provided actual proof that he was facing a highly advanced super chess engine other than speculation. Unless you have concrete proof that "yes, he was 100% using a chess engine to predict Ayano's moves" then it's straight up assumption. If he was using an extremely advanced chess computer to predict his best moves, why would he even need a group of personel to also account for it?

Also I still want to bring up Garry's defeat of Deep Blue. Deep Blue, although not as powerful as modern computers, Deep Blue could still make over 200 million chess calculations per second. Does that mean that Garry was making over 200 million chess calculations per second in order to defeat it? No. Garry Kasparov beat the chess engine despite being far less intelligent than the computer and not making nearly as many calculations. So why are we suddenly assuming that Ayanokouji has to be smarter than the chess engine to make litteraly 1 move better than it? Garry f*cking defeated a supercomputer and yet he's not considered as smarter than it. I get that Ayanokouji's computer was FAR more powerful than Deep Blue (assuming that one was even being used), but that doesn't suddenly make it so that we can ignore Garry's feat. Really the only thing our chess engines have improved on is the computers running them and have gotten slightly better at evaluating moves. The computers can make more calculations in a second and is a bit better at seeing how well those moves will work, but the basic way that they work is more-or-less the same.

Also, Tsukishiro said himself that Ayanokouji made a move better than what the chess engines calculated. How would he end up knowing that? If he made a move that the computer didn't see as the best move, they would've just said "he didn't make the best move he could've there." But no, either one of the personel or the computer itself determined "wait a minute, that's a better move than what the computer did." This either means that either after Ayanokouji made the move, the computer realised "oh wait, my bad, I didn't see that (which is entirely possible for computers to do as even the most advanced supercomputers can miss moves), he actually did make the best move possible there" which doesn't at all prove he outsmarted it, the computer just made a mistake and corrected its mistake afterwards, simularly to the Alexey game where he made a move the computer originally didn't see, but after it saw that move it corrected itself and determined that as the best move, or even worse for Ayanokouji, one of the other humans realized this and said "Hold it, the move Ayano just made was better than what our chess engine did, let's have him make the wrong move" meaning that even the personel that were working on the game were able to see that Ayanokouji made a better move than what their chess engine saw, which kind of proves that the chess engine they were working with wasn't that great. Unless you want to also argue that the personel were also smarter than supercomputers to be able to notice that he made a better move.

And when Sakayanagi was playing Ayanokouji (keep in mind, her only scaling is that Ayano stated she was better than the people he played in the white room, who were at most about a 2400 ELO), she was keeping up with him, and he was only a teeny bit ahead of her. To quote the LN: "Even after the match went past the halfway point, instead of opening the gap between us and spreading my tiny lead, it took the full extent of my ability to prevent her from closing in on me." This is Ayano straight up admitting that she was giving him trouble and that he had to use the full extent of his skill and chess knowledge to prevent her from catching up. Again, people have analyzed the chess game in the anime, and people have determined that the way Ayanokouji played the endgame was really nothing special and calculated Sakayanagi's ELO to only be about 1400. My ex-girlfriend was a 1400 ELO chess player. The captain of my high school chess club was a 1500 ELO player. My own dad is around a 1200 - 1400 ELO player. I litteraly know people that could probably play better than Sakayanagi did here. And Ayano admitted that he was struggling to keep her from taking him out. And once his one move was edited, he wasn't able to beat her.

Now I know that for this part, you could argue that they played this way because the animators of the anime aren't chess experts themselves and didn't see this, but at the same time, this is what they played. This is canonically how their game went. The anime serves as a visual for the LN, and since they never stated what their positions were in the LN, this is what we have to work off of. And it's not impressive.

So with the combined fact that chess engines can make mistakes and it's possible for real life chess masters to make better moves than even the most advanced chess bots on the planet, the fact that you don't actually have to be smarter than a supercomputer to legit beat one (as seen with Garry), the fact that the chess engine itself or even one of the personel was able to very quickly realize that Ayano made a better move than what the chess engine predicted, showing that it wasn't a case of Ayano outsmarting the computer but the computer making and realizing its mistake (which again, they do all the time), actual analysis of the game by skilled chess players determining that they aren't all that good, and the fact that Tsukishiro using a chess engine is just an assumption with no solid proof behind it other than just guessing, makes me believe that the supercomputer feat is complete BS.

It's one f*cking move guys, it's not that impressive. There's a golden rule in chess that just because you beat a GM, it doesn't make you a GM. If you beat a 2500 ELO player that doesn't give you a 2500 ELO. If you make a singular move better than a chess engine, you don't become smarter than a supercomputer, you just make 1 move better than it. That's all.

Plus, plenty of chess experts still speculate that Grandmasters can theoretically draw even the most advanced chess computers. And for the last time, Chess ability =/= intelligence. I have a higher IQ than Hikaru, but he'd still godstomp me in chess. I had a higher IQ than my ex-girlfriend, but the most I could ever hope for in our chess games was a draw. There's a reason why we don't just use chess games as an IQ test, because even those with average IQs can have immense skill in the game. You don't judge a fish by it's ability to climb a tree, and you don't judge a persons overall intelligence by a single chess move

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

So I read some of the earlier arguements. First off, nobody has provided actual proof that he was facing a highly advanced super chess engine other than speculation. Unless you have concrete proof that "yes, he was 100% using a chess engine to predict Ayano's moves" then it's straight up assumption. If he was using an extremely advanced chess computer to predict his best moves, why would he even need a group of personel to also account for it?

As said earlier, COTE takes place in the future so an average computer they have would be equivalent to a high end computer today on the low end. Given how quickly computer technology advances this is a low ball. I am avoiding assumptions by NOT claiming Tsukishiro is using some super engine as it fits just as well by saying he used the "most common engine in the world" which is stockfish. Again this is a low ball since it assumes Stockfish won't improve AT ALL between now and the COTE timeline.

Also I still want to bring up Garry's defeat of Deep Blue. Deep Blue, although not as powerful as modern computers, Deep Blue could still make over 200 million chess calculations per second. Does that mean that Garry was making over 200 million chess calculations per second in order to defeat it? No. Garry Kasparov beat the chess engine despite being far less intelligent than the computer and not making nearly as many calculations. So why are we suddenly assuming that Ayanokouji has to be smarter than the chess engine to make litteraly 1 move better than it? Garry f*cking defeated a supercomputer and yet he's not considered as smarter than it. I get that Ayanokouji's computer was FAR more powerful than Deep Blue (assuming that one was even being used), but that doesn't suddenly make it so that we can ignore Garry's feat. Really the only thing our chess engines have improved on is the computers running them and have gotten slightly better at evaluating moves. The computers can make more calculations in a second and is a bit better at seeing how well those moves will work, but the basic way that they work is more-or-less the same.

Simple, Deep Blue wasn't playing what is regarded today as the "best move" on each move. Any engine today can do that. Deep Blue could calculate 200M positions per second but that is a function of the hardware it is running on more than the engine. Today the hardware engines run on is literally thousands of times more powerful and engines are FAR more accurate. So making better moves than Deep Blue is something many GMs can do but making better moves than Stockfish is not the same.

Also, Tsukishiro said himself that Ayanokouji made a move better than what the chess engines calculated. How would he end up knowing that? If he made a move that the computer didn't see as the best move, they would've just said "he didn't make the best move he could've there." But no, either one of the personel or the computer itself determined "wait a minute, that's a better move than what the computer did." This either means that either after Ayanokouji made the move, the computer realised "oh wait, my bad, I didn't see that (which is entirely possible for computers to do as even the most advanced supercomputers can miss moves), he actually did make the best move possible there" which doesn't at all prove he outsmarted it, the computer just made a mistake and corrected its mistake afterwards, simularly to the Alexey game where he made a move the computer originally didn't see, but after it saw that move it corrected itself and determined that as the best move, or even worse for Ayanokouji, one of the other humans realized this and said "Hold it, the move Ayano just made was better than what our chess engine did, let's have him make the wrong move" meaning that even the personel that were working on the game were able to see that Ayanokouji made a better move than what their chess engine saw, which kind of proves that the chess engine they were working with wasn't that great. Unless you want to also argue that the personel were also smarter than supercomputers to be able to notice that he made a better move.

Now you are making Assumptions. Claiming if Tsukishiro said Koji made a better move than the engine it MUST mean the engine made a mistake. As for the second point this feat isn't to claim Koji "outsmarted" a computer, but that he made a calculation better than the computer. Please stop trying to move the goalpost on this. He was calculating lines in advance and in that line was a move the engine couldn't calculate. It really is that straightforward. Tsukishiro DIRECTLY states that his move was better than the engine and makes no indication the engine made a mistake so such an assumption on your part has no merit.

And when Sakayanagi was playing Ayanokouji (keep in mind, her only scaling is that Ayano stated she was better than the people he played in the white room, who were at most about a 2400 ELO), she was keeping up with him, and he was only a teeny bit ahead of her. To quote the LN: "Even after the match went past the halfway point, instead of opening the gap between us and spreading my tiny lead, it took the full extent of my ability to prevent her from closing in on me." This is Ayano straight up admitting that she was giving him trouble and that he had to use the full extent of his skill and chess knowledge to prevent her from catching up. Again, people have analyzed the chess game in the anime, and people have determined that the way Ayanokouji played the endgame was really nothing special and calculated Sakayanagi's ELO to only be about 1400. My ex-girlfriend was a 1400 ELO chess player. The captain of my high school chess club was a 1500 ELO player. My own dad is around a 1200 - 1400 ELO player. I litteraly know people that could probably play better than Sakayanagi did here. And Ayano admitted that he was struggling to keep her from taking him out. And once his one move was edited, he wasn't able to beat her.

Also, using the anime for chess feat is dumb. We have described it many times and now, it's just internet dudes trying to find a reason for them being smarter than Kiyotaka. The anime is just secondary canon, it is used for only timeframes for fight scenes or any additional information as long as it connects with the LN in any way. If two scenes differ greatly, then LN needs to be prioritized, and the wiki is using

Reggor already addressed why using information from the Anime regarding the Chess Feat which isn't found in the LN is inapplicable in this scaling so the analysis of the anime chess match is completely irrelevant to scaling LN Ayanokouji's intelligence.

So with the combined fact that chess engines can make mistakes and it's possible for real life chess masters to make better moves than even the most advanced chess bots on the planet, the fact that you don't actually have to be smarter than a supercomputer to legit beat one (as seen with Garry), the fact that the chess engine itself or even one of the personel was able to very quickly realize that Ayano made a better move than what the chess engine predicted, showing that it wasn't a case of Ayano outsmarting the computer but the computer making and realizing its mistake (which again, they do all the time), actual analysis of the game by skilled chess players determining that they aren't all that good, and the fact that Tsukishiro using a chess engine is just an assumption with no solid proof behind it other than just guessing, makes me believe that the supercomputer feat is complete BS.

It's one f*cking move guys, it's not that impressive. There's a golden rule in chess that just because you beat a GM, it doesn't make you a GM. If you beat a 2500 ELO player that doesn't give you a 2500 ELO. If you make a singular move better than a chess engine, you don't become smarter than a supercomputer, you just make 1 move better than it. That's all.

This points are repeated from before and already addressed. Again you are trying to reframe the Chess Feat and why Ayanokouji isn't smarter than a computer which was never the point.

Plus, plenty of chess experts still speculate that Grandmasters can theoretically draw even the most advanced chess computers. And for the last time, Chess ability =/= intelligence. I have a higher IQ than Hikaru, but he'd still godstomp me in chess. I had a higher IQ than my ex-girlfriend, but the most I could ever hope for in our chess games was a draw. There's a reason why we don't just use chess games as an IQ test, because even those with average IQs can have immense skill in the game. You don't judge a fish by it's ability to climb a tree, and you don't judge a persons overall intelligence by a single chess move

I already addressed this exact point and this was NEVER the point.

As for being good at chess correlated to IQ that was NEVER the point. The point was his calculations regarding his best move showcase an ability to outperform a computer which is one of the points in the EG definition. Therefore him doing so is a valid piece of evidence for his EG rating.

So please stop misinterpreting the chess feat.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Thanks, Huntsman, for carrying the debate. I am currently down with illness (got diagnosed just an hour later) but I think I will express thoughts on some things. And of course, I will try to write the reply I talked about later on for sure.

I will let Reggor comment on this more later but I will also address it here.

Ok, so for this. Sidis according to the raw IQ system would be very high, personally and basically the epitome of human intelligence through raw IQ systems if we characterize him by his achievements.

But if Sidis was to be scaled in Weschler's scale, then he might not even be remotely close to his suggested raw IQ. For example, all he has is FRI feats, he lacks VSI and CPI and would be pretty much an Akiyama victim in that. The same was with Terence Tao as well.

And in my honest opinion, I wouldn't rank Sidis beyond level 4. Ichika (a gen 5 and level 4 subject) narratively learnt university level stuff at the age of 11 as well. Also, she has the feat of learning archery in about a day, and also, Sidis may have a Harvard achievement at a young age, but that would be related with a handful of courses. Ichika had to be perfect with the same or a better efficiency at almost everything including physical, academic and intellectual quests and basically learn even those courses which she may have never wanted to learn.

No, it isn’t difficult to argue that his Perfect memory is different from photographic memory. You are continuing to base your downgrade arguments around the idea that his memory makes his Intelligence feats less impressive, and that is something I strongly disagree with.

I don’t actually understand why you don’t agree with his memory being different from photographic given even your own points have his memory different from it. Otherwise, anyone with a photographic memory should be able to achieve results similar to Ayanokouji IRL, but that clearly isn’t the case. You are arguing that his memory is so advanced that he has feats above human limits only possible via his memory, but also claim his memory is not significantly different from a photographic memory. To be clear, I am arguing that Ayanokouji's Perfect Memory > Photographic Memory.

Ok, so talking about this. So, the entire "Kiyotaka's Learning Ability is due to Memory" argument comes from this single statement, or should I better refer to it as a theory:

Now, to provide the context. This statement/theory is given by Suzukake, the Generation 4 head instructor. Now, the thing about this is that Suzukake has already made a very bad statement by underrating Kiyotaka's emotional intelligence and saying that he didn't know what most people did, but as everyone who read the novel probably knows, Kiyotaka never really showed that he cared, and he was always attentive to others and used to make his own deductions upon people's emotions and even analyzed emotions in V0 monologues.

Funnily, Kiyotaka verbatim debunks this entire theory all by himself:

Here, in this statement by Kiyotaka himself. He implies that focusing on memorization without actually applying the basics wasn't really the thing to learn. He draws a fine line between him and other natural geniuses like Yuki and Shiro who got results all by their "sense", but he himself mentions that it was still possible to surpass them, and we know he does surpass them later on.

So again, first of all, Kiyotaka himself mentions that it isn't just memorization, but actually focusing on learning and applying the things learnt to yourself.

Now, going with the memory, so bidding on the fact that Photographic Memory can actually help you learn is not the best of the arguments. Firstly, Photographic Memory is an ability to learn things by just taking a glance at them, but let's be real, if a Photographic Memory user memorizes something in a glance, then it can be memorized by a normal human as well, just not with the same speed as the former, meaning that memorizing should ultimately be the key to learning, which is just false, because even if you were to memorize the basics, you may fail to apply them, which is the thing.

Also, Suzukake mentioned that Kiyotaka would face some consequences if he was really doing his learning via memorization, he would face negative effects of it, which he basically never does reportedly, and his learning is unwavered.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

It appears inconsistent to disregard the anime's visuals for the light novel, especially when we've previously considered them for other purposes. Not pointing fingers, but this feels like a case of selectively ignoring information, which comes across as somewhat biased.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

It appears inconsistent to disregard the anime's visuals for the light novel, especially when we've previously considered them for other purposes. Not pointing fingers, but this feels like a case of selectively ignoring information, which comes across as somewhat biased.

I believe Reggor's point is that given the drastic differences between the LN and the anime making the blanket assumption that anime timeline events happen the same as in the LN in incorrect. Some examples:

40 students per class in the LN, 25 in the anime
Horikita helped Ayanokouji with the camera bluff in the Sudo trial, LN it was Ichinose
Horikita helped in the pool episode with the cameras, LN it was Kei
Planets Exam with 8 groups in the anime, Zodiac Exam 12 groups in the LN
Contruction site confrontation in the anime, Rooftop in the LN
etc.

So the point being that the Anime and LN are separate continuities that contain some similarities. If the anime offers additional information and context without replacing, contradicting, or otherwise breaking with the LN then some content can be used. However, when the content differs from the LN then it should be treated as a divergence from the source material and not used for scaling.

For the Chess Match, simply put the specific moves made in the anime are a divergence from the LN for the very reason that Arisu is a better chess player than any of the masters Koji beat in the WR. A true analysis of the anime match shows her ELO to be that of an intermediate player at best which is a clear break from the LN canon that contradicts that. What this argument is trying to do is override LN canon which states Arisu is a high level player and replace it with anime canon that she is intermediate. That is why such an argument is invalid.

The anime is just secondary canon, it is used for only timeframes for fight scenes or any additional information as long as it connects with the LN in any way. If two scenes differ greatly, then LN needs to be prioritized

Reggor can you confirm what I said above is correct.