Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

[ThePrimalHunter]

I'm glad you agree with the EG rating overall and I can try and clarify why the Chess Feat is a valid piece of evidence as part of that. Firstly claiming what he did isn't impressive just because it's possible irl is poor logic. By this logic Olympic athletes don't do anything impressive because what they do is possible for multiple people. So Ayanokouji doing something that ONLY GMs could possibly do is impressive.

Then using chess puzzles and human solutions to them is actually not a great way to compare what Ayanokouji did. This is because Chess Engines and humans think about moves differently (revelation of the century ik) but it actually makes a big difference in how you compare them. Engines evaluate something called move trees where each branch begins with a possible move from a current position and then evaluates different possibilities on each branch and eliminating the ones which it determines to have less value due to a rating system it assigns. It gains no benefits of recognizing patterns and no benefit from a move series. It's experience would come from a database with positions stored which an engine "might" be able to access. However higher depth or access to a database leads to more processing needed and any computer has limits on what it can process. Most puzzles which engines or even Stockfish struggle with fall into such traps where a repeated similar series of moves allows for a checkmate, or a series of easily calculated moves which extend beyond what an engine can calculate. No move is easier or harder for an engine to evaluate since it reliant on the processing power to do so, while for a human the complexity of the position is more important. A GM could easily calculate 40-50+ moves in an endgame while an engine might struggle due to the depth even if each move should be obvious. I say all that to point out how something like Martin with Queens or checkmate puzzles aren't a fully accurate comparison to a live game.

As for the proof for EG rating outperforming computers is specifically mentioned under its criteria and even if it was only 1 time he did outperform a computer 1 time. As such it serves as a valid piece of evidence for supporting his EG rating.

You might just have to explain this to me like I'm 5 because I really don't see how that makes his feat valid, if anything that just confirms that he could outsmart computers because you pointed it out yourself that they have trouble calculating some moves due to its range and could fall into traps. Humans outsmart computers frequently, the olympic athlete comparison doesn't work because what olympic athletes do isn't possible for normal people. No regular average joe is clocking in at 27 mph like Usain Bolt. No everyday person is preforming a 10/10 dive. I never said that making a better chess move was something any novice 300 ELO player could do, I'm saying that it's something high-level chess playing humans do all the time and thus shouldn't be good justification for Extraordinary Genius.

If making just one move better than a supercomputer puts you above the supercomputer, then give Garry an Extraordinary Genius rating because he outsmarted the worlds most advanced chess computer at the time and won against it. How is that not classified as outsmarting a supercomputer but making just 1 move better than one is? If he doesn't classify for extraordinary genius off of litteraly winning against a powerful chess computer, I don't see why Ayano making a singular move better than it would count, even if the engine he's facing is better than Deep Blue.

Also again, you need to actually prove that he was facing a Stockfish level supercomputer. The only suggestion that there was even a chess computer involved in the first place was Ayano's dad saying "we had machines." What machines? Chess engines? Computers? In the anime that isn't even brought up, we just see a room of chess experts sitting around analyzing the game. Hell, Ayano has admitted before that he was being pressed by the one girl I forgot the name of, who is at most Grandmaster level, and that's being generous. Bro was STRESSING against her, and she has no feats suggesting anything superhuman at all.

Plus as Phoenks said earlier, being good at chess doesn't automatically translate to IQ. The 2nd best chess player alive has an IQ of 102. I have a higher IQ than that, yet he would slap the everloving god out of me in chess 1000/1000 games. Even if he's peak human in chess, that doesn't prove that he's suddenly peak human in intelligence.

 

[Worthless]

How do we know that the machines he was talking about was a high-powered chess engine?

To suggest he prepared a bunch of normal machines against someone he considered a not human is a move very unlikely of Tsukishiro

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

To suggest he prepared a bunch of normal machines against someone he considered a not human is a move very unlikely of Tsukishiro

That's just speculation. Other than just litteral guesses, there's no proof that he actually used a high-powered chess engine like Stockfish against Ayano.

In the anime, there isn't even a single mention of it, we just see some dudes sitting around some computers analyzing the game.

You do know that machines can refer to other stuff outside of chess engines, right? And from the looks of it, there were plenty of computers, aka machines, there. Unless you can actually provide proof that when he said "machines" he meant extremely high-powered chess engines, then there's no proof of him refering to actual chess engines other than just speculation

And again, the other girl is at MOST a grandmaster level player, and Ayano was struggling with her, with him admitting that he was legit having trouble dealing with her. Bro was getting pressed by a maybe grandmaster, but we're saying he's above supercomputers in chess playing ability?

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

AIZEN SOLOS.

Agree

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

To suggest he prepared a bunch of normal machines against someone he considered a not human is a move very unlikely of Tsukishiro

Also consider that being set in the future even "average" computers would likely be better than top of the line ones from today. This much is obvious given how quickly computing technology improves

That's just speculation. Other than just litteral guesses, there's no proof that he actually used a high-powered chess engine like Stockfish against Ayano.

In the anime, there isn't even a single mention of it, we just see some dudes sitting around some computers analyzing the game.

You do know that machines can refer to other stuff outside of chess engines, right? And from the looks of it, there were plenty of computers, aka machines, there. Unless you can actually provide proof that when he said "machines" he meant extremely high-powered chess engines, then there's no proof of him refering to actual chess engines other than just speculation

And again, the other girl is at MOST a grandmaster level player, and Ayano was struggling with her, with him admitting that he was legit having trouble dealing with her. Bro was getting pressed by a maybe grandmaster, but we're saying he's above supercomputers in chess playing ability?

This point holds true here, and in the context of an EG rating we don't need to speculate on exact specifics of the engine. For reference computing power of technology has doubled every 2-3 years since around 2000 so its actually likely that any "average" computer used by Tsukishiro could have 4x or more computing than anything existing today. While Chess engines aren't increasing at that same rate they are also improving over time and access to more computing power aids this by allowing them to calculate faster and at higher depth.

As for whether he used stockfish there isn't a specific mention of it, but given how it's the most popular and widely used engine in the world it certainly makes sense. Given it's accessibility, unless you want to argue that Tsukishiro went out of his way to use a weaker engine Stockfish is the minimum level of engine he would use, not the maximum.

 

[Worthless]

Bro was STRESSING against her, and she has no feats suggesting anything superhuman at all.

When did this happen? I remember they had a rematch after the competition where no one named Tsukishiro interrupted, only for Arisu to lose completely (watch the post credits scene)

That's just speculation. Other than just litteral guesses, there's no proof that he actually used a high-powered chess engine like Stockfish against Ayano.

Are you saying he is some third-rate villain to not make such a preparation at that level ? Really ? He’s literally the person why we have a jack of all trades Ayanokoji and is the same dude that handles all the dirty business like it's a natural thing to do.

In the anime, there isn't even a single mention of it, we just see some dudes sitting around some computers analyzing the game.

That's just how anime works lol. They don’t need to split it out like the novel did because the visuals alone convey it.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Chess is a LOT about memory btw yall and considering how Ayanokouji is, he would be a top tier player just by analysing hundreds of thousands of games just like any chess master does

 

[RoggerReggor]

Following. I will address this in about half a day. I have a huge exam coming up, and this has to be the worst day for it.

Also, using the anime for chess feat is dumb. We have described it many times and now, it's just internet dudes trying to find a reason for them being smarter than Kiyotaka. The anime is just secondary canon, it is used for only timeframes for fight scenes or any additional information as long as it connects with the LN in any way. If two scenes differ greatly, then LN needs to be prioritized, and the wiki is using

Also, saying that just because Kiyotaka has high learning ability due to Photographic Memory and that, Photographic Memory isn't really intelligence (even though it is and it has been helpful in outsmarting scenarios of him, but scrap that thought for once), would mean that you will be discarding that fact that he will still need to apply process to his learning efficiency and it's not just "memorizing", and that, this would mean that you are arguing that every potential Photographic Memory user is somehow a person who can improve upon their own learning speed.

Let me show how badly this argument is crafted:

• If you believe that Photographic Memory would make it easy to memorize something and then apply it to your own body and learn it fast, then this is absolutely bad. You would need Bodily Kinesthetic (an intelligence subset upon many Intelligence concepts including Gardener's theory and also inclusive in the Learning Speed on FRI or Fluid Reasoning Index for Weschler's Adult's Scale for Intelligence or WASI), Learning Speed itself (sub-cat for WASI), VSI in purely physical learning (again, a sub-cat for WASI), then learning efficiency and even adaptability, which is all intelligence.
• In short, you will need to prove that every Photographic Memory user can somehow learn things as fast as Kiyotaka, BY JUST being a Photographic Memory user.

Funnily, you may as well have the memory enough to memorize things, like you can basically memorize the moves of a dancer, but you will end up taking days

Sure, this thread may prove that Kiyotaka is not a natural genius, and he isn't, but the story of V0 itself revolves around him being an "adaptive" genius, which is again, a genius, and by that, he has demolished even those who are in the ranges of being a natural genius, like Arisu (who is narratively said to have a superior DNA and therefore was researched to be a genius), or Ichika (who again is said to be a genius). Being a "genius" is context-dependent, sure, but here, it's not a character being narcissistic or some character applauding some character out of pity, but adults (who are literal researchers) being amazed of a kid being overpowered and delivering a concrete narrative.

If you were to use that mental age statement, then earlier IQ concepts use the formula (Mental Age/Subject Age)*100, junior high students are 12-13 years old and considering the "by the time statement", I will use the lower (and it is basically lower than that), and the 20 to 30 mental age statement, the raw IQ would be 25/12*100 = 208 IQ (standard IQ measures use 145 as low-end genius generally and above 160 as higher geniuses), and funnily, this is for a normal White Room subject, and this was when White Room was just figuring out the programs for the Gen 4 (Kiyotaka's generation), it went on to become progressively better as it proceeded, and therefore, a normal subject would of course have better results than this at full efficiency, not to mention that Kiyotaka transcended all of them, did a program which is narratively said to create a "monster" compared to other geniuses, and something which was beyond just normal child torture (which was still described to be the human limit of endurance at a much lower level of the program itself). And all of it is accepted in his profile. Aside from his intelligence section, he has a bible-esque feats-section.

But again, for this thread itself, I will just need to get Kiyotaka above William James Sidis by a huge margin for him to be an Extraordinary Genius (which is very easy tbh), so choose any IQ system, I would prefer Weschler's Adult scale, I would use the sub-cats as Visual-Spatial, Fluid Reasoning, Working Memory + Processing Speed (Cognitive Proficiency) and Verbal Comprehension, can be searched by a single Wikipedia search.

I will also use about 3 of his strategies to prove its inherent complexity along with its 100% success rate in maximum scenarios and its efficiency, and get his future predictions, reading abilities and also, his brain processing speed, for which, I will use Memory Recollection feats.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

You might just have to explain this to me like I'm 5 because I really don't see how that makes his feat valid, if anything that just confirms that he could outsmart computers because you pointed it out yourself that they have trouble calculating some moves due to its range and could fall into traps. Humans outsmart computers frequently, the olympic athlete comparison doesn't work because what olympic athletes do isn't possible for normal people. No regular average joe is clocking in at 27 mph like Usain Bolt. No everyday person is preforming a 10/10 dive. I never said that making a better chess move was something any novice 300 ELO player could do, I'm saying that it's something high-level chess playing humans do all the time and thus shouldn't be good justification for Extraordinary Genius.

So here the comp is that Olympic Athletes are among the best in the World at what they do, the chess equivalent are GMs or even SuperGMs. My point was that not just anyone can make a move better than an engine (intentionally) and any players of such a level could. I'll explain the point about engines falling into traps and why it makes the comp not accurate for Ayanokouji's feat. I'll try and simplify as much as possible to make sure I get the point across.

Due to the differences in how engines vs humans think there are different things which confuse engines vs what confuses humans. This is because like I said in the earlier post, engines don't have access to pattern recognition like humans do. It doesn't matter to a computer if it's seen a position before once or millions of times. It still has to either evaluate it or search it in a tablebase. Chess puzzles which stump engines are very often based around this principle which makes it almost impossible for engines to solve while possible for humans. It is also possible to make moves that an engine would have a hard time understanding. This is again possible by understanding how engines think. The reason these are important to consider is because it isn't the case for Ayanokouji's move. The position was just in the course of a game, not a chess puzzle. Furthermore, his move wasn't designed to confuse an engine as he didn't even know an engine was being used until after the game ended. It is also important to point out that as seen in the LN, Ayanokouji was calculating lines and planning moves in advance during this stage of the game. So he made calculations about his moves leading to a move the engine didn't find it its calculation. This is why the feat is impressive in terms of his intelligence.

If making just one move better than a supercomputer puts you above the supercomputer, then give Garry an Extraordinary Genius rating because he outsmarted the worlds most advanced chess computer at the time and won against it. How is that not classified as outsmarting a supercomputer but making just 1 move better than one is? If he doesn't classify for extraordinary genius off of litteraly winning against a powerful chess computer, I don't see why Ayano making a singular move better than it would count, even if the engine he's facing is better than Deep Blue.

This is wrong for 2 main reasons. First, making 1 move better than the computer isn't what qualifies Ayanokouji as EG, it is just "part" of why. That combined with him being a polymath, his ability to predict the future via calculation, his ability to execute complex strategies under high pressure and more all combine to grant him that rating. It isn't just the chess feat. Second, Deep Blue is VASTLY weaker than chess computers today. In terms of engine strength, it is not nearly as advanced as current software which can analyze more positions much more efficiently and accurately. Added to the fact that your cell phone has over 1000 times the computing power of Deep Blue so it's not nearly as impressive.

Also again, you need to actually prove that he was facing a Stockfish level supercomputer. The only suggestion that there was even a chess computer involved in the first place was Ayano's dad saying "we had machines." What machines? Chess engines? Computers? In the anime that isn't even brought up, we just see a room of chess experts sitting around analyzing the game. Hell, Ayano has admitted before that he was being pressed by the one girl I forgot the name of, who is at most Grandmaster level, and that's being generous. Bro was STRESSING against her, and she has no feats suggesting anything superhuman at all.

Plus as Phoenks said earlier, being good at chess doesn't automatically translate to IQ. The 2nd best chess player alive has an IQ of 102. I have a higher IQ than that, yet he would slap the everloving god out of me in chess 1000/1000 games. Even if he's peak human in chess, that doesn't prove that he's suddenly peak human in intelligence.

Stockfish isn't a computer, its a program. You can run it on just about anything including your cell phone without issue. So while we can't determine the exact nature of the computers, that isn't relevant since what we do know is more than enough. The future timeline means that are at a minimum equal to top end computers of today given how quickly technology advances. This could EASILY be argued to be higher but that isn't necessary. High end computers running the most common and most accessible engine is stockfish and that is why it is the most likely.

As for being good at chess correlated to IQ that was NEVER the point. The point was his calculations regarding his best move showcase an ability to outperform a computer which is one of the points in the EG definition. Therefore him doing so is a valid piece of evidence for his EG rating.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Following. I will address this in about half a day. I have a huge exam coming up, and this has to be the worst day for it.

Glad to see you are following.

 

[RoggerReggor]

As for being good at chess correlated to IQ that was NEVER the point. The point was his calculations regarding his best move showcase an ability to outperform a computer which is one of the points in the EG definition. Therefore him doing so is a valid piece of evidence for his EG rating.

If we are using Hikaru as an example, then we would have to regard the fact that Hikaru has been playing chess for 31 years.

If the argument is basically that Kiyotaka is better than professionals who may be or may not be comparable to Hikaru (102 IQ, average intelligence), then we CANNOT disregard that they have been playing chess for a huge part of their life (about 20 or more years or even 31 in the case of Hikaru), which is being compared to Kiyotaka's 1 or 2 years of experience and he was demolishing them.

Just because GothamChess argument was used before, we need to see that GothamChess has publicly uploaded chess videos on the internet and even the ones from his childhood, meaning that you can compare them. Arisu mentioned about 8 years gap (when she saw Kiyotaka playing chess) from their ages at the time of talk, which would be 15, do the math and you get 7 years. GothamChess at 7 years of age, was not even intermediate level (<1100 ELO), considering that Levy has been playing chess since he was 5. That's where the difference lies ultimately.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

If we are using Hikaru as an example, then we would have to regard the fact that Hikaru has been playing chess for 31 years.

If the argument is basically that Kiyotaka is better than professionals who may be or may not be comparable to Hikaru (102 IQ, average intelligence), then we CANNOT disregard that they have been playing chess for a huge part of their life (about 20 or more years or even 31 in the case of Hikaru), which is being compared to Kiyotaka's 1 or 2 years of experience and he was demolishing them.

Just because GothamChess argument was used before, we need to see that GothamChess has publicly uploaded chess videos on the internet and even the ones from his childhood, meaning that you can compare them. Arisu mentioned about 8 years gap (when she saw Kiyotaka playing chess) from their ages at the time of talk, which would be 15, do the math and you get 7 years. GothamChess at 7 years of age, was not even intermediate level (<1100 ELO), considering that Levy has been playing chess since he was 5. That's where the difference lies ultimately.

For reference here is a list of the youngest GMs in the world ranking how old they were when they got the GM title. The youngest is 12 years and 4 months. Ayanokouji destroying GMs at age 7 is already showing his intelligence and adaptability in his ability to improve at a young age. Especially given that he is well above GM rating 5 years before the youngest GM in the world got his title.

https://www.chess.com/article/view/youngest-chess-grandmasters

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I love how this is just a chess debate now but nobody has even mentioned cagnus marlsen

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

cagnus marlsen

My favorite checkers player of all time

 

[wwereymy235]

My favorite checkers player of all time

I thought he was a shogi player??