ReaperAndBlues
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Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence
- Thread starter Phoenks
- Start date
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kouji when the "Gifted" Elsa Granhiert adapts to all of his attacks and now they dont work anymore (He never even hit her because she can dodge an AoE blast which filled the entire room WITHOUT exiting the room)
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Missing any memories is Y1V5. There's a huge difference between him not missing any important memories / events / people / knowledge / etc. And him being able to remember a trivial fact like what the precise number of class points last year was. he forgot that later and it turned from "377 / 318" into "around 350". him not remembering it is his exact words in his monologue.
Missing context.
During The Match:
- Even position
- Arisu makes a move, Ayanokouji comments that she's more interested in discovering how skilled he is than winning. this can't be discarded.
- Ayanokouji finds the move he needed to play.
- Arisu suggests that if they played 10 times, they'd go 5-5
- Ayanokouji agrees, then monologues that it'd go exactly as she said and that he found it interesting they were equal in classical chess
This is the problem with Kouji, even when Kouji himself says something in his monologue, it has to be misinterpreted or modified to fit other misinterpretations.
The best VSI feat is her visualizing the whole island down to the terrain level and in 3d and then simulating the movements and precise paths that various groups are taking on it. Ayanokouji VSI (and WMI) is upscaled to this.
And this isn’t an interpretation, this is something that was blatantly stated as being something she’s doing.
I am not that familiar with Old Maid's possibilities, I remember it but I am not familiar with its breakdown. Takuya's tablet "feat" is another giga wank similar to Arisu recall and the like.
the reason I think FMA is unimportant in the grand scheme of things because in FSIQ, WMI / VSI / VCI / FRI are already vastly superior to upper human limits based on other feats. him having slightly above upper human limit in PSI is unimportant in totality. and FMA is practically a PSI FSIQ subtest.
let's be very clear here. "Kouji gaps L in FSIQ" is a complete outlier opinion from everything I've seen, excluding pure COTE scalers. I am certain that CTW L wouldn't just match, he would likely take FSIQ, but how much does his specs differ from Cannon L (DN main series + side stories) I am not precisely certain.
but even if one withdraws L, the larger point remains the same. One may take Baku, PJ, Hannibal, etc. All have a "genius" intelligence rating, and all are within a ballpark of Kouji in FSIQ. Baku has Air Poker CPI, Hannibal has thousands of massive and vivid memory palaces.....
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ReaperAndBlues
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They got nothing on my goat Luffy
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just the thought of him being better then her or any of the other re zero "gifted" fighters sound hillarious given how absurd their BIQ and experience is
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He only states that he trained 4 martial arts as a kid. Boxing, Judo, Jet Kune Do and Karate and those should be the ones that we know for sure he is pro-level at. I'm not saying he's bad at the other martial arts he does, I just don't see him being pro-level on those.
My MMA example still stands. You don't have to excell every sub-martial art of a composite martial art to be pro-level at it.
How...?
As far as the LN states, this just goes for 4 martial arts. Not the others.
And you don't see how fallacious this way of thinking is? You can't assume he mastered every martial art he used just because he trained in the WR, even if it's not stated.
You don't have to master every martial art to be a good combattant.
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- Thread starter
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Ayanokouji seems to just be someone who is gifted in a lot of categories, but doesn't really exceed profoundly in any one of those categories. He's almost a polymath, which is good support for Genius, but not any higher than that.
@Qawsedf234 what is your current opinion?
@Qawsedf234 what is your current opinion?
HelloThere1089
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It's called ducking
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Is it just me or is giving Ayano Gifted would make zero sense whatsoever considering so many characters that are far below him in terms of overall intellect have the same tier?
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I don't want to derail the thread any further, but have you ever seen an argument that's so disrespectful and incorrect that it rekindled the enthusiasm you once had for that anime? And don't get me wrong. I neither agree nor disagree with the intelligent and combat EQ, just annoyed by the blatant display of downplaying.
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I think kouji is just "gifted" in combat iq 
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hey man at least spell koji properlyI think kouji is just "gifted" in combat iq
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The thread is titled "Downgrading AyanoKOUJI's Intelligence"...
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Gifted is too low.
Regarding some of the arguments OP made, I don’t think they are correct or even the best way to approach determining if he is a G or EG; But that mostly stems from creative interpretations in the profile itself.
Just off the top of my head:
Ayanokouji’s memory is overpowered more because he consciously controls what to commit to his LTM and what to discard. Which ends up powering his bottomless absorption of knowledge and his extreme learning ability. This is the core of his ability, and there’s some truth to that without Ayanokouji being born in the whiteroom he wouldn’t have ended up being a genius. That’s part of the series’s narrative.
Using William James Sadis as a measuring stick is the wrong way to go about determining Genius vs E. Genius. Similarly, trying to assign him to some numerical IQ band is similar folly.
his spelling is accurate for the official TL name.
Does someone know an extraordinary genius whom Kouji fits the definition better? To me, his intelligence is within a ballpark of other characters who are considered “Genius”, but his pure knowledge gaps them. And the characters whom I know who were classified Extraordinary geniuses would run circles around him in the mentioned criteria.
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they will be downgraded to gifted intelligence too
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Spider-Man (Marvel Comics)
Peter Benjamin Parker, more well-known as Spider-Man, was once just a nerdy teenager in High School. But after he was bitten by a radioactive spider at a science exhibition, he gained the proportionate strength, speed, and agility of a spider alongside a special precognitive ability known as the...
vsbattles.fandom.com
maybe?
edit: shiro is a good example
Shiro (No Game No Life)
Shiro (白, Shiro) is an 11-year-old genius NEET (Not in Education, Employment, or Training), hikikomori (shut-in) gamer who, along with her brother, Sora, form 『 』Kuuhaku. She is the main female protagonist of No Game No Life, and the calm and calculative half of the siblings. Tier: 10-C Name...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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This is a funny yet kinda mathematically accurate comparison, though I feel like Ayano has way more feats than Spidey.Spider-Man (Marvel Comics)
Peter Benjamin Parker, more well-known as Spider-Man, was once just a nerdy teenager in High School. But after he was bitten by a radioactive spider at a science exhibition, he gained the proportionate strength, speed, and agility of a spider alongside a special precognitive ability known as the...
maybe?
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I meant that it would be inconceivable to put Ayano as "Gifted" since there's a 3 kilometers list of characters that are nowhere close to him in that regard that are in the "Gifted" tier too lol
HelloThere1089
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Maybe.
I don't understand. Isn't Shiro a supergenius? What's the point of bringing her into a discussion about EGs?edit: shiro is a good example
Shiro (No Game No Life)
Shiro (白, Shiro) is an 11-year-old genius NEET (Not in Education, Employment, or Training), hikikomori (shut-in) gamer who, along with her brother, Sora, form 『 』Kuuhaku. She is the main female protagonist of No Game No Life, and the calm and calculative half of the siblings. Tier: 10-C Name...
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This might be helpful as a resource https://www.reddit.com/r/Spiderman/s/FRnwTNYKkE
Personally, I don’t think Kouji takes given Reed Richards is a super genius and that Hank Pym is a likely super genius. Someone can feel free to disagree.
Shiro from NGNL is light years ahead of Ayanokouji in terms of intellect. It’s not even close between them.
The same can be said for Dazai from bungou stray dogs. And he’s only an extraordinary genius, al bit a high end one.
Truthfully, I’ve been thinking perhaps Batman or even Aizen? But I am unfamiliar with their intelligence feats. So someone else would have to judge here.
As another possibility, why not split it and go with Genius, Possibly Extraordinary Genius. Alongside a rewriting of / a thread to rewrite his intelligence section?
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From a narrative standpoint, and based on the White Room, there isn’t a field or subject where he isn’t a genius and superior, regardless of how professional or skilled they may seem, within the verse.
Even in areas he isn’t really familiar with, just give him a few days and he will surpass where you are confident. His adaptability and ability to learn quickly make this kind of stuff possible.
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I think what’s important isn’t “gifted” and “genius” as defined in COTE or the real world, but how they are defined and applied here.
The fact he is a genius, is unquestionable in COTE. Similarly, the fact that he qualifies for at the bare minimum “Genius” as defined and applied here is also unquestionable in my mind.
Whether or not he can fit in with “Extrodinary Genius”, as defined and applied here, is a completely different matter.
There are Extraordinary geniuses (as defined here) who are light years ahead of Ayanokouji in intelligence. Similarly, there are “Genius” characters here whom he is slightly superior or equal to in intellect, but whom he vastly exceeds in pure knowledge. So the question is whether or not he can be fit in as a low end Extraordinary Genius.
I think we should wrap up this thread imo. Though I’d again note for whoever gets to decide in cases like this that “Genius, Possibly Extraordinary Genius” is also an option
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Whether he fits EG here or not is not really my concern. But one thing is for sure: the knowledge he possesses in every field vastly exceeds that of professionals and geniuses in their respective fields irl. The most terrifying part is that he can continue to advance, he can still learn and adapt.
The sheer knowledge and wisdom he possesses easily surpass most characters rated as geniuses on this site. For example Garou is rated as EG here for having knowledge of all behavior in the universe. While the scale is obviously not the same, you get the idea, both possess a broad knowledge.
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That is the central concern of this thread.
I agree with most of what you said, but knowledge and intelligence aren’t exactly the same thing. For the knowledge portion of the Extraordinary genius definition here, he does fit. The intelligence part is the continuous one, he’s much, much closer to genius there than extraordinary genius.
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If you believe that, then I don’t think there’s a need for further discussion. Garou is also rated as EG for having knowledge of the forces and flow of the universe. While the scale is obviously not the same, you get the idea. "Having extensive knowledge in multiple fields and vastly surpassing the upper human limits of the real world" ehem Beta Curriculum, Knowledge that is stated to vastly exceed what can be learned in a lifetime, and repeatedly stated to possesses a knowledge that's impossible to measure.
And now it seems like I’m contradicting myself about being neutral
Zabazab
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Extraordinary Genius from sheer volume of knowledge on a vast array of subjects isn't unheard of, though Koji's expanse of knowledge is probably too realistic for that, as strange as that sounds. (Example: Batenkaitos)
I don't think it'd be incorrect to call Koji an extraordinary genius within his verse, but I don't really think he fits the wiki's definition.
I don't think it'd be incorrect to call Koji an extraordinary genius within his verse, but I don't really think he fits the wiki's definition.
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The thing is, speaking about knowledge, it’s more akin that Ayanokouji possesses the upper human limits of knowledge in 15-20 subjects or even more. The analogy the series uses is that he absorbs as much as he is taught by college professors and geniuses at a freighting pace. He’s neigh limitless in his capacity for knowledge acquisition, but he doesn’t possess any knowledge that by itself “vastly surpasses upper human limits”.
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For sure, when even the geniuses in the White Room treated him like a god-like being, the same geniuses who would be considered extraordinary in real world.
DivineAura44
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Chill out on my goat
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The thing is, it’s unheard for a human to have that amount of knowledge. Even if we assume he only possesses knowledge comparable to that of professors and geniuses in every field, the fact remains that he has a total amount of knowledge that’s impossible for a human. In fact, I would argue that the statement he made in Vol. 2 was not a lie. He is easily an extraordinarily genius by real world standards. Heck, on second thought he is like a computer given the amount of knowledge he has.
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So i been following this thread from the start, and at this point i feel like everyone is more or less just repeating themselves so wouldnt it be better for everyone to just vote at this point instead of just going around in circles or is that just me?
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Pretty good idea..
DivineAura44
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Anyways after skimming through the arguments, I would agree with a genius rating. I think a lot of these feats have the "implied growth" issue. It shows you insane levels of knowledge at a preliminary stage but that doesn't mean that said character grows. It's like measuring someone in skill at sports who can play on the level of NBA all stars at the age of 18. We look at a player like that and think "he could be the greatest of all time" because he does great things from young but this doesn't mean said person will his reach his "potential."
I would prefer if there was more evidence of Koji being at full capacity in his current stage rather than "he was a master at multiple martial arts before reaching the age of 10."
I would prefer if there was more evidence of Koji being at full capacity in his current stage rather than "he was a master at multiple martial arts before reaching the age of 10."
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So far i am netural on the downgrade regarding his overall intelligence, but i wholeheartedly agree that his battle one should be downgraded to gifted possibly genius
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i am fine with genius intelligence but aint no way he is getting anything even slightly above gifted in combat iq.
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Yeah tbh, it feels absurd given the people that are in gifted (the re zero cast etc) and how even more absurd the feats of people in EG combat are (Mori Dan, Taskmaster etc)
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I'd settle for Genius Overall Intelligence and Gifted Battle Intelligence.
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