Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

[Phoenks]

That’s better. Although Ayanokoji still outperforms every human that’s ever lived in general intelligence.

Bro he's not even close LMAO. I'm out of here bro you got me laughing so hard.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Wait, are you saying William entering Harvard at 11 is not evidence or do you mean something else?

I think that using a child prodigy that went to Harvard at 11 years old is not good evidence for arguing that Ayanokouji does not have Genius intelligence

 

[AyeZ2]

I think that using a child prodigy that went to Harvard at 11 years old is not good evidence for arguing that Ayanokouji does not have Genius intelligence

Oh ok. Thanks for clarifying

 

[Huesito88]

Bro he's not even close LMAO. I'm out of here bro you got me laughing so hard.

So he stomps composite human then?

 

[wwereymy235]

Bro he's not even close LMAO. I'm out of here bro you got me laughing so hard.

Name a feat better than whiteroom Koji

 

[Tatsumi504]

"Touch some grass" well, isn't this ironic.

Remind everyone who is reducing actual genius feats to just gifted again. "Touch some grass" seems very suitable considering you had the bright idea to compare him to shounen protagonists

Okay, so you're wrong right off the bat.

True photographic memory has never been observed to exist. The maximum humans are capable of is Eidetic Memory, which is a far cry from photographic (Notice, even this page makes a distinction and restates that photographic memory doesn't exist)

I mentioned it being present to varying extents and you bring up true photographic memory.

I don't give a damn what you friend says lol, it's just not a thing.

I never said it was my friend's conclusion did I? It's my objective opinion about him now shush, I do not wish to soil his name further by even vaguely mentioning him here.

"Trustest sense of the word" can mean anything. Gotta be specific and bring scans, otherwise you're just yapping.

Wasn't it obvious from the start that I only came here to yap? "Truest sense of the word" refers to what everyone here will collectively refer to as "genius"

William James Sidis taught himself 8 languages by age 8 without having the supernatural ability of Perfect Memory.

Wow, an actual real life genius who under performed compared to a fictional character is being used to disprove said fictional character being a genius. I also asked for those between ages 2-6

It's not. Mental age of 20-30 is not impressive by these standards. At best it is just another feat of gifted intellect.

Honestly now I'm curious, what did you do between the ages of 10-13?

His ability to recall is a supernatural and unfair advantage that he was born with. Also, I didn't say is invalidated his feats. I said that is significantly reduces their impact.

"Unfair advantage" go tell that to all the athletes with one disorder or the other that makes them excel in their respective fields.
Want me to quote multiple messages with you using perfect memory to invalidate said feats? Invalidate, reduce same thing. I guess human beings aren't the most mentally developed organism simply because we have more developed brains than other organisms.

Please give the SS that it was a supercomputer and also show him consistently outperforming it in multiple areas, not just chess.

Nah, I'd win. I'm here to yap after all

Again, more yapping because you aren't proving it is anything more than a hype statement. Give scans that support it being anything more than that. Please.

Yep, that's me, mr yappy yappington

This was in regard to learning martial arts. I don't understand what is so hard to understand about perfect memory sufficiently aiding in being able to memorize a style of combat. It makes it far less impressive.

I sens genuine confusion here so I'll be serious. Memorizing a combat style ≠ mastering a combat style. Just cause you memorize football or basketball skills doesn't mean you can use them against athletes in real time. Learning to dribble by yourself/ against stationary objects isn't the same as doing it against the likes of CR 7 or the goat himself. If you can't understand that there's no saving you.

Children are capable of participating in martial arts training at age four.

I asked for children who mastered multiple martial arts, beat masters at it at that age. You really aren't helping yourself here. Participating isn't equal to mastering it. Playing princess ≠ actually mastering the etiquette, mannerisms and behaviors expected from one occupying such a position.

What separates Kouji is his memory. Also, saying memory doesn't aid anyone is mastering martial arts is absolutely HILARIOUS. Most of combat sports, and sports in general, is literally muscle memory.

All of what you mentioned here is significantly easier to master via Perfect Memory, btw. Literally all realms of human endeavor are.

Perfect memory is now the same as hand-eye coordination, superb motor skills, superior reflexes, ingrained instincts, well honed physical abilities? I guess a paraplegic with perfect memory can beat Usain bolt in a 100m dash now

Anyway I'm not responding to the rest of this. Also, I recommend that you chill out lol. Dude is just an anime character on a scaling website. Not need to get all furious xD.

I was chill, a fact which everyone seems to have missed. I rook that tone as well as this one in order to convey how much you are actually downplaying.

I'd simply ask for a single source of a human who has performed all of his feats or even come close to it before your points can be true because no human at the upper limit, peak is capable of or at the very least has yet to achieve it.

 

[AyeZ2]

That’s better. Although Ayanokoji still outperforms every human that’s ever lived in general intelligence.

The main thing that makes him scary is his ridiculous adaptation. He went from being like completely trash at skiing in Y2V8 to seeing someone do it once, analyzing how they did it, and replicating it so well to the point it was having Ryuen question why Ayanokoji even said he was new to skiing.

 

[Worthless]

The main thing that makes him scary is his ridiculous adaptation. He went from being like completely trash at skiing in Y2V8 to seeing someone do it once, analyzing how they did it, and replicating it so well to the point it was having Ryuen question why Ayanokoji even said he was new to skiing.

No joke but It's crazy to think that even his third leg is extra ordinary as well. Man took peak human to the next level

 

[wwereymy235]

The main thing that makes him scary is his ridiculous adaptation. He went from being like completely trash at skiing in Y2V8 to seeing someone do it once, analyzing how they did it, and replicating it so well to the point it was having Ryuen question why Ayanokoji even said he was new to skiing.

Exactly. He had PHD level professors leaving the whiteroom in just a few days because of how fast Ayanokoji learned the material. They had their heads down in defeat because they couldn’t believe what they had just witnessed. At the age of 9!

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah I think Ayanokouji is low-end Genius

 

[AyeZ2]

Exactly. He had PHD level professors leaving the whiteroom in just a few days because of how fast Ayanokoji learned the material. They had their heads down in defeat because they couldn’t believe what they had just witnessed.

He learned critical thinking at age 2. He beat 6 heavily trained armed whiteroom instructors completely bare handed as a child. Bro is just built different

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Koji is just extraordinary geniuses like Naruto and Zoro victim

Anyway agree with downgrade to Genius level.

 

[Dalesean027]

yeah I'm fine with very low end genius seeing everything up to now

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

You provided convincing logic overall, but there are a few things want to clarify.

This is due to his ability, which is perfect memory. This has nothing to do with intellect. It's a supernatural capability.

While it's true that a character having a perfect memory can be flimsy evidence of them being smart and a character can have photographic memory without incredible intelligence, it's still worth acknowledging that a person's capability to recall things plays a big part in achieving high intelligence. If we were inept at memorizing and recalling things, nothing advanced would go to long-term memory that we can effortlessly use because we wouldn't be able to train our brains to be familiar with information, so we wouldn't be able to get smart. Ayanokouji's ability completely bypasses any conflict involving needing to memorize something in order to get smart, so I think this is useful as supporting evidence.

Being gifted in chess is a hyper-specific area of human endeavor and being smart in chess does not equivalate to intelligence in other areas. This is perhaps best represented by real-world Grandmaster Hikaru Nakamura having an average IQ (102) despite being the #2 ranked player in the world.

A character being highly skilled at playing a game like chess proves they understand mind games and metagame. Obviously this alone wouldn't qualify for Extraordinary Genius, but it's relevant to more than solely playing the game.

Being knowledgeable in various fields isn't anything special. This is really vague as well. Again, not a supporting feat for Extraordinary Genius.

It's vague indeed, but it's potentially also one of the most important pieces of evidence. If those fields are important and different, then it makes Ayanokouji a polymath, which could be grounds for real people being classified as geniuses depending on how you judge such a thing. So, what fields Ayanokouji learned should definitely be looked into. I wouldn't know.

Another vague hype-statement that doesn't really mean anything in of itself.

That is true when judging it by itself, but if those many other characters have their own feats of brilliance, it gives context to the other statement about Ayanokouji being a genius among geniuses in a way that's significant.

My conclusion is that I vote to be neutral. I also feel the same as the other people, that Ayanokouji's perfect memory isn't as huge of a hinderance as the revision proposal makes it out to be. However, I agree that some of the information should be moved from the Intelligence section to the justification for photographic memory or be removed entirely.

 

[Rayfire]

Well this turned into a warzone quickly

 

[Rayfire]

It won’t

What if it does

 

[wwereymy235]

What if it does

Then people don’t know how to scale intelligence

 

[Worthless]

What if it does

There are two individuals here who is probably going flood this thread with future predictions through sheer mental calculations, outperforming a chess engine, and the vast amount of knowledge that Koji possesses in every field, in every categories

 

[wwereymy235]

There are two individuals here who is probably going flood this thread with future predictions through sheer mental calculations, outperforming a chess engine, and the vast amount of knowledge that Koji possesses in every field, in every categories

thehuntsman is going to comment on here later, he’s one of the people working on the koji doc

 

[Arceus0x]

Mid-end genius for sure. Phoenks lives in smartass land or sth cause in what world is a kid learning university level math and mastering sciences in a few days is gifted? Tf? Even if memory was not counted here, he'd still need to UNDERSTAND how science works so that he can actually apply it. He doesn't just screenshot shit, he uses what he remembers.
So we've got
-uni-level math at 4 y/o
-professors leaving in a few days because he learned their science
-learned a bunch of martial arts
-beat a futuristic chess super computer

The evidence against him being genius being an actual kid genius is hilarious.

Overall this CRT is a gross overestimation of what a genius is. The biggest geniuses on earth shouldn't be the minimum requirement of the genius intelligence mark.

 

[Arceus0x]

Anyways @Phoenks this you?

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

So OP gave a number of reasons why Ayanokouji should be downgraded to Genius or Gifted and based on rereading his profile it actually makes some sense. However that isn't because Ayanokouji deserves to be downgraded, rather because the correct justifications for his EG rating weren't coming across. As previously noted, OP didn't address any of the points from the CRT which made him EG in the first place and only what was on the profile, so I will lay out line by line with the VSBW definition of EG which OP also quoted any why Ayanokouji meets each of the criteria.

Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science – Ayanokouji studied a vast number of topics while in the White Room. The curriculum was constantly expanding and by age 5 he was already learning topics such as Mathematics, languages, natural and physical sciences, economics, and political science. We also know the topics of the White Room covered everything taught at ANHS while Ayanokouji was still a child. As such, Ayanokouji has a Graduate level education in a vast array of subjects which certainly qualifies as knowledge spreading over multiple fields, it is also important to note that even as a child his knowledge in each specific field was so great that "world class" instructors felt the need to leave the WR since they could not longer teach him anything.



Vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits – The human upper limit in terms of the WR curriculum is directly stated to be level 5. Anything higher than that has a 100% failure rate with Ayanokouji as the sole exception. This combined with his perfect memory, which is clearly different from a standard photographic memory, and his stated genetic mutation which allowed for him to succeed. As for him memory, his classification here as Photographic Memory isn’t consistent with its applications in the novels. He as the ability to actively manage which memories are recalled at will, he can organize his thoughts and memories to stop people from being able to cold read him, and his absorption of information is subconscious. Using the claim that his memory is merely photographic and that his basis of E.G. is grounded solely in that is both disingenuous and a strawman. Additionally claiming that Ayanokouji having a Perfect Memory makes his intelligence less valid is laughable ridiculous. This statement's lack of logical consistency is clear when we use it in other contexts. Having a power/ability can and does allow characters to qualify for different tiering and all of a sudden claiming that isn't true would be a blatant attempt to downgrade here under false pretenses.

NOT because he is smarter or more intelligent than normal people, no, but because he was just born with an unfair, supernatural advantage. It makes everything significantly easier.

At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, outperforming supercomputers – While Ayanokouji isn’t developing futuristic technology, he has shown many times that he can execute complex strategies even under high pressure. Escaping the White Room, Island Strategy, Paper Shuffle Strategy, Overall X Strategy, Knife Strategy with Housen, Second Island Exam, Voting Exam, and more. As for outperforming supercomputers there is the Chess Computer feat but VSBW defines this as such: “Outperforming supercomputers" is here used as an umbrella term for the ability to perform extremely advanced thought processes such as calculations and multitasking. Under this definition his aforementioned Perfect Memory encompasses this via his full memory recall feat (PMH) during V5. Here Ayanokouji, in an instant, searches his entire life’s memories for any trace of Arisu after she claims to know about him and the White Room. This is also supported by him in Y2V11 where he again references thinking through all his memories of his school life so far in that instant. Both cases show his extremely advanced through process through this massive amount of data management. While unlike the Chess Feat this isn’t a “calculation” it is representative of his thought process and his multitasking given his ability to do this during a normal conversation.



For those following this thread based solely on the information from Ayanokouji's profile and are unfamiliar with the source material or his specific strategies I can provide more detail if needed, however given how many there are and how involved it is to explain each one I'll leave that for a response if needed.

Even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations – Ayanokouji not only has multiple highly accurate prediction feats doing exactly this, but he also has a direct statement where he says he does this.



So in conclusion Ayanokouji's feats certainly do reach the level to qualify for Extraordinary Genius and his ability to do so has NOT been refuted by the OP. While he did point out why the profile wording isn't sufficient for portraying that and needs to be amended downgrading Ayanokouji from his EG rating would be incorrect. Given how this thread was formed on the basis of Ayanokouji not fulfilling the direct definition of EG according to VSBW standards this should clear up how he certainly does.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

thehuntsman is going to comment on here later, he’s one of the people working on the koji doc

I was predicted fr

 

[Qawsedf234]

Overall this CRT is a gross overestimation of what a genius is. The biggest geniuses on earth shouldn't be the minimum requirement of the genius intelligence mark.

To quote the page

Genius: Individuals with an exceptional capacity for knowledge and intelligence, usually in one area of varying depth. This level of intellect is the level of real-world geniuses, polymaths, and genuinely extremely prominent intellectuals, and, in the absence of better feats, should be the default intelligence category for fictional characters with exceptional or superhuman intelligence.

Being a polymath is enough to hit a Genius rating, which the character would qualify for. They just don't have the fictional levels of intelligence required for higher ratings. Calling them Gifted is seemingly a lowball.

So my vote would be a downgrade to Genius.

EDIT: Was made before the rebuttal.

 

[wwereymy235]

I was predicted fr

I’m literally Ayanokoji frfr

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

To quote the page

Being a polymath is enough to hit a Genius rating, which the character would qualify for. They just don't have the fictional levels of intelligence required for higher ratings. Calling them Gifted is seemingly a lowball.

So my vote would be a downgrade to Genius.

Except he clearly does have the qualifications for EG above just being a polymath. I went ahead and pointed out why he does have the level of intelligence and why relegating him to genius is incorrect based on that.

His higher rating is justified

 

[AyeZ2]

So OP gave a number of reasons why Ayanokouji should be downgraded to Genius or Gifted and based on rereading his profile it actually makes some sense. However that isn't because Ayanokouji deserves to be downgraded, rather because the correct justifications for his EG rating weren't coming across. As previously noted, OP didn't address any of the points from the CRT which made him EG in the first place and only what was on the profile, so I will lay out line by line with the VSBW definition of EG which OP also quoted any why Ayanokouji meets each of the criteria.

Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science – Ayanokouji studied a vast number of topics while in the White Room. The curriculum was constantly expanding and by age 5 he was already learning topics such as Mathematics, languages, natural and physical sciences, economics, and political science. We also know the topics of the White Room covered everything taught at ANHS while Ayanokouji was still a child. As such, Ayanokouji has a Graduate level education in a vast array of subjects which certainly qualifies as knowledge spreading over multiple fields, it is also important to note that even as a child his knowledge in each specific field was so great that "world class" instructors felt the need to leave the WR since they could not longer teach him anything.



Vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits – The human upper limit in terms of the WR curriculum is directly stated to be level 5. Anything higher than that has a 100% failure rate with Ayanokouji as the sole exception. This combined with his perfect memory, which is clearly different from a standard photographic memory, and his stated genetic mutation which allowed for him to succeed. As for him memory, his classification here as Photographic Memory isn’t consistent with its applications in the novels. He as the ability to actively manage which memories are recalled at will, he can organize his thoughts and memories to stop people from being able to cold read him, and his absorption of information is subconscious. Using the claim that his memory is merely photographic and that his basis of E.G. is grounded solely in that is both disingenuous and a strawman. Additionally claiming that Ayanokouji having a Perfect Memory makes his intelligence less valid is laughable ridiculous. This statement's lack of logical consistency is clear when we use it in other contexts. Having a power/ability can and does allow characters to qualify for different tiering and all of a sudden claiming that isn't true would be a blatant attempt to downgrade here under false pretenses.




At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, outperforming supercomputers – While Ayanokouji isn’t developing futuristic technology, he has shown many times that he can execute complex strategies even under high pressure. Escaping the White Room, Island Strategy, Paper Shuffle Strategy, Overall X Strategy, Knife Strategy with Housen, Second Island Exam, Voting Exam, and more. As for outperforming supercomputers there is the Chess Computer feat but VSBW defines this as such: “Outperforming supercomputers" is here used as an umbrella term for the ability to perform extremely advanced thought processes such as calculations and multitasking. Under this definition his aforementioned Perfect Memory encompasses this via his full memory recall feat (PMH) during V5. Here Ayanokouji, in an instant, searches his entire life’s memories for any trace of Arisu after she claims to know about him and the White Room. This is also supported by him in Y2V11 where he again references thinking through all his memories of his school life so far in that instant. Both cases show his extremely advanced through process through this massive amount of data management. While unlike the Chess Feat this isn’t a “calculation” it is representative of his thought process and his multitasking given his ability to do this during a normal conversation.



For those following this thread based solely on the information from Ayanokouji's profile and are unfamiliar with the source material or his specific strategies I can provide more detail if needed, however given how many there are and how involved it is to explain each one I'll leave that for a response if needed.

Even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations – Ayanokouji not only has multiple highly accurate prediction feats doing exactly this, but he also has a direct statement where he says he does this.



So in conclusion Ayanokouji's feats certainly do reach the level to qualify for Extraordinary Genius and his ability to do so has NOT been refuted by the OP. While he did point out why the profile wording isn't sufficient for portraying that and needs to be amended downgrading Ayanokouji from his EG rating would be incorrect. Given how this thread was formed on the basis of Ayanokouji not fulfilling the direct definition of EG according to VSBW standards this should clear up how he certainly does.

Always knew that Koji was smarter then Light in every way possible

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Always knew that Koji was smarter then Light in every way possible

While I don't necessarily disagree, there is a difference between Intelligence and Outsmarting. Koji happens to stomp Light in both but while here we are focused on Intelligence, SCD cares about Outsmarting.

 

[Rayfire]

Always knew that Koji was smarter then Light in every way possible

 

[Rayfire]

In all seriousness the new arguments do make me lean more towards a high-end genius rating. I don't know classroom of the elite well beyond season 1 of the anime, so i can't really speak for extraordinary genius. My vote will stay the same for now though

Also, there do seem to be a number of people who disagree with this, so i think a list of those who disagree should be made

 

[Worthless]

The human upper limit in terms of the WR curriculum is directly stated to be level 5.

And that Beta was a dimension that would never be reached. The weight of this statement too.

 

[AyeZ2]

And that Beta was a dimension that would never be reached. The weight of this statement too.

And then there’s the gap between him and Yagami. Yagami is a Genius in his own right but was so below Koji that Koji didn’t even need to face him in person to get him expelled. He just exploited Yagami’s obsession with wanting to prove he was capable of beating Koji and executed the plan to get him expelled perfectly. Literally everything played out perfectly as he expected it to.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

In all seriousness the new arguments do make me lean more towards a high-end genius rating. I don't know classroom of the elite well beyond season 1 of the anime, so i can't really speak for extraordinary genius. My vote will stay the same for now though

Also, there do seem to be a number of people who disagree with this, so i think a list of those who disagree should be made

The COTE anime actually does a very poor job representing the intelligence of the verse and adapting the LN content. Season 1 is mostly faithful but also doesn't contain much in terms of solid feats so if your basis of Ayanokouji comes from that I fully understand why you feel EG is a bit much.

Let me know if you want any clarifications or explanations on feats, or LN context in regards to this.

And then there’s the gap between him and Yagami. Yagami is a Genius in his own right but was so below Koji that Koji didn’t even need to face him in person to get him expelled. He just exploited Yagami’s obsession with wanting to prove he was capable of beating Koji and executed the plan to get him expelled perfectly. Literally everything played out perfectly as he expected it to.

Definitely agree with this. Takuya certainly deserves a genius rating himself and Ayanokouji outscales him massively. So while a scaling chain isn't evidence on it's own to prove an EG rating we can just add it to the long list of evidence supporting such a rating.

 

[Phoenks]

I'll respond to new information tomorrow when I get the chance. I still don't see him as being EG though.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

So I'm personally okay with the E.G rating, but I did want to throw my 2 cents into this topic, I don't think the chess supercomputer feat should be a valid arguement at all for E.G.

Ayanokouji made 1 move better than a supercomputer. One. That's not impressive at all as real life chess players do that all the time. I'm going to quote a segment from a great document that talked about this incredibly in depth

In 1998, Veselin Topalov Vs Alexey Shirov, Linares España, Alexey Shirov Played 47.... Bh3!! , A move so brilliant and well calculated that Stockfish (The greatest chess engine to ever exist that would clobber COTE verse in chess literally hundreds of times, and has an estimated elo of 3600) couldn't even see on depth 50. After relaying it this move, it immediately changed its evaluation and deemed Black (Alexey) to be winning.

A Puzzle composed in 1970 by Dutch Endgame Composer Gijs van Breukelen had a solution that Stockfish (again) couldn't see when allowed to run on depth 60 for a long amount of time. The Great Mikhail Tal was the only person who solved it in a group of Super GMs.

In TCEC 2023, Stockfish (here we go again) played a game against LC0 (another God level engine, rated 2nd in the world) and blundered in such a way that it lost the game in another 50 - 60 moves. Here is an explanation by GothamChess himself :

What can be concluded from the following examples is that engines are also limited in their capacity and make blunders and are sometimes not even capable of finding moves like humans, even though the moves humans make stem from learning ability. Thus, does it mean that Stockfish or chess engines in general are inferior to human? No, sometimes the engines are not able to calculate freely and analyze positions that can be easy for humans, And for this very reason the fact that Kiyotaka made one move better than Computer scales to literally nothing because if it was just a simple move that came from imbalance analysis, then the Engine may have calculated wrong as engines nowadays rely on pruning and not on brute force computations , and thus making it irrelevant just like our real life examples. If we had info about the moves and the game, then the story would be different (although not much). I consider this to be completely an error.

I have a few more examples outside of this, such as:

• GothamChess could beat Martin (a 250 ELO chess bot) when all of Martin's pieces were queens and GothamChess had the normal pieces. If you run that exact same game with a 3200 ELO chess bot, Martin with all queens wins a majority of the time (I've ran this several times and Martin typically wins), yet GothamChess won on his first try, so GothamChess was able to make better moves than a 3200 ELO chess bot despite not being nearly close to that ELO himself
• There have been people that have beat extremely powerful chess engines, such as Garry Kasparov beating Deep Blue in 1996. Deep Blue is nowhere near as powerful as modern day chess computers and Deep Blue would go onto win in a rematch, but humans have outpreformed high-powered chess computers and beat them before
• Litteraly the only line in the entire LN that even suggests that a chess engine was being used was the word "machines". How do we know that the machines he was talking about was a high-powered chess engine? In the anime, there isn't even a reference to "machines", we litteraly just see a group of chess experts sitting around a bunch of computers making the predictions. Outpredicting some chess experts is something grandmasters do all the damn time
• People have watched and reviewed the chess game from the anime and have calculated that Ayano roughly has an ELO of 2,000. That's not even high enough to classify as a chess expert, let alone a grandmaster or a superhuman chess player

So although I'm not anti-Extraordinary Genius, I am anti using this chess feat as proof of that. Ayano is maybe grandmaster level at best, and is barely even a chess expert at worst

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I'll respond to new information tomorrow when I get the chance. I still don't see him as being EG though.

I do think this thread was born due to a poorly written Intelligence section on Ayanokouji's profile following his previous CRT like I said above. So if you want any more clarifications when you go through this tomorrow lmk.

 

[Mizuki67]

Overrated character. Yeah extraordinary genius is a no go for me

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

So I'm personally okay with the E.G rating, but I did want to throw my 2 cents into this topic, I don't think the chess supercomputer feat should be a valid arguement at all for E.G.

Ayanokouji made 1 move better than a supercomputer. One. That's not impressive at all as real life chess players do that all the time. I'm going to quote a segment from a great document that talked about this incredibly in depth

I'm glad you agree with the EG rating overall and I can try and clarify why the Chess Feat is a valid piece of evidence as part of that. Firstly claiming what he did isn't impressive just because it's possible irl is poor logic. By this logic Olympic athletes don't do anything impressive because what they do is possible for multiple people. So Ayanokouji doing something that ONLY GMs could possibly do is impressive.

Then using chess puzzles and human solutions to them is actually not a great way to compare what Ayanokouji did. This is because Chess Engines and humans think about moves differently (revelation of the century ik) but it actually makes a big difference in how you compare them. Engines evaluate something called move trees where each branch begins with a possible move from a current position and then evaluates different possibilities on each branch and eliminating the ones which it determines to have less value due to a rating system it assigns. It gains no benefits of recognizing patterns and no benefit from a move series. It's experience would come from a database with positions stored which an engine "might" be able to access. However higher depth or access to a database leads to more processing needed and any computer has limits on what it can process. Most puzzles which engines or even Stockfish struggle with fall into such traps where a repeated similar series of moves allows for a checkmate, or a series of easily calculated moves which extend beyond what an engine can calculate. No move is easier or harder for an engine to evaluate since it reliant on the processing power to do so, while for a human the complexity of the position is more important. A GM could easily calculate 40-50+ moves in an endgame while an engine might struggle due to the depth even if each move should be obvious. I say all that to point out how something like Martin with Queens or checkmate puzzles aren't a fully accurate comparison to a live game.

As for the proof for EG rating outperforming computers is specifically mentioned under its criteria and even if it was only 1 time he did outperform a computer 1 time. As such it serves as a valid piece of evidence for supporting his EG rating.

 

[wwereymy235]

Overrated character. Yeah extraordinary genius is a no go for me

Overhated character.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

I'm glad you agree with the EG rating overall and I can try and clarify why the Chess Feat is a valid piece of evidence as part of that. Firstly claiming what he did isn't impressive just because it's possible irl is poor logic. By this logic Olympic athletes don't do anything impressive because what they do is possible for multiple people. So Ayanokouji doing something that ONLY GMs could possibly do is impressive.

Then using chess puzzles and human solutions to them is actually not a great way to compare what Ayanokouji did. This is because Chess Engines and humans think about moves differently (revelation of the century ik) but it actually makes a big difference in how you compare them. Engines evaluate something called move trees where each branch begins with a possible move from a current position and then evaluates different possibilities on each branch and eliminating the ones which it determines to have less value due to a rating system it assigns. It gains no benefits of recognizing patterns and no benefit from a move series. It's experience would come from a database with positions stored which an engine "might" be able to access. However higher depth or access to a database leads to more processing needed and any computer has limits on what it can process. Most puzzles which engines or even Stockfish struggle with fall into such traps where a repeated similar series of moves allows for a checkmate, or a series of easily calculated moves which extend beyond what an engine can calculate. No move is easier or harder for an engine to evaluate since it reliant on the processing power to do so, while for a human the complexity of the position is more important. A GM could easily calculate 40-50+ moves in an endgame while an engine might struggle due to the depth even if each move should be obvious. I say all that to point out how something like Martin with Queens or checkmate puzzles aren't a fully accurate comparison to a live game.

As for the proof for EG rating outperforming computers is specifically mentioned under its criteria and even if it was only 1 time he did outperform a computer 1 time. As such it serves as a valid piece of evidence for supporting his EG rating.

You might just have to explain this to me like I'm 5 because I really don't see how that makes his feat valid, if anything that just confirms that he could outsmart computers because you pointed it out yourself that they have trouble calculating some moves due to its range and could fall into traps. Humans outsmart computers frequently, the olympic athlete comparison doesn't work because what olympic athletes do isn't possible for normal people. No regular average joe is clocking in at 27 mph like Usain Bolt. No everyday person is preforming a 10/10 dive. I never said that making a better chess move was something any novice 300 ELO player could do, I'm saying that it's something high-level chess playing humans do all the time and thus shouldn't be good justification for Extraordinary Genius.

If making just one move better than a supercomputer puts you above the supercomputer, then give Garry an Extraordinary Genius rating because he outsmarted the worlds most advanced chess computer at the time and won against it. How is that not classified as outsmarting a supercomputer but making just 1 move better than one is? If he doesn't classify for extraordinary genius off of litteraly winning against a powerful chess computer, I don't see why Ayano making a singular move better than it would count, even if the engine he's facing is better than Deep Blue.

Also again, you need to actually prove that he was facing a Stockfish level supercomputer. The only suggestion that there was even a chess computer involved in the first place was Ayano's dad saying "we had machines." What machines? Chess engines? Computers? In the anime that isn't even brought up, we just see a room of chess experts sitting around analyzing the game. Hell, Ayano has admitted before that he was being pressed by the one girl I forgot the name of, who is at most Grandmaster level, and that's being generous. Bro was STRESSING against her, and she has no feats suggesting anything superhuman at all.

Plus as Phoenks said earlier, being good at chess doesn't automatically translate to IQ. The 2nd best chess player alive has an IQ of 102. I have a higher IQ than that, yet he would slap the everloving god out of me in chess 1000/1000 games. Even if he's peak human in chess, that doesn't prove that he's suddenly peak human in intelligence.