Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

[wwereymy235]

Anyway I will change OP to genius even though I disagree with it.

That’s better. Although Ayanokoji still outperforms every human that’s ever lived in general intelligence.

 

[Phoenks]

That’s better. Although Ayanokoji still outperforms every human that’s ever lived in general intelligence.

Bro he's not even close LMAO. I'm out of here bro you got me laughing so hard.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Wait, are you saying William entering Harvard at 11 is not evidence or do you mean something else?

I think that using a child prodigy that went to Harvard at 11 years old is not good evidence for arguing that Ayanokouji does not have Genius intelligence

 

[AyeZ2]

I think that using a child prodigy that went to Harvard at 11 years old is not good evidence for arguing that Ayanokouji does not have Genius intelligence

Oh ok. Thanks for clarifying

 

[Huesito88]

Bro he's not even close LMAO. I'm out of here bro you got me laughing so hard.

So he stomps composite human then?

 

[wwereymy235]

Bro he's not even close LMAO. I'm out of here bro you got me laughing so hard.

Name a feat better than whiteroom Koji

 

[Tatsumi504]

"Touch some grass" well, isn't this ironic.

Remind everyone who is reducing actual genius feats to just gifted again. "Touch some grass" seems very suitable considering you had the bright idea to compare him to shounen protagonists

Okay, so you're wrong right off the bat.

True photographic memory has never been observed to exist. The maximum humans are capable of is Eidetic Memory, which is a far cry from photographic (Notice, even this page makes a distinction and restates that photographic memory doesn't exist)

I mentioned it being present to varying extents and you bring up true photographic memory.

I don't give a damn what you friend says lol, it's just not a thing.

I never said it was my friend's conclusion did I? It's my objective opinion about him now shush, I do not wish to soil his name further by even vaguely mentioning him here.

"Trustest sense of the word" can mean anything. Gotta be specific and bring scans, otherwise you're just yapping.

Wasn't it obvious from the start that I only came here to yap? "Truest sense of the word" refers to what everyone here will collectively refer to as "genius"

William James Sidis taught himself 8 languages by age 8 without having the supernatural ability of Perfect Memory.

Wow, an actual real life genius who under performed compared to a fictional character is being used to disprove said fictional character being a genius. I also asked for those between ages 2-6

It's not. Mental age of 20-30 is not impressive by these standards. At best it is just another feat of gifted intellect.

Honestly now I'm curious, what did you do between the ages of 10-13?

His ability to recall is a supernatural and unfair advantage that he was born with. Also, I didn't say is invalidated his feats. I said that is significantly reduces their impact.

"Unfair advantage" go tell that to all the athletes with one disorder or the other that makes them excel in their respective fields.
Want me to quote multiple messages with you using perfect memory to invalidate said feats? Invalidate, reduce same thing. I guess human beings aren't the most mentally developed organism simply because we have more developed brains than other organisms.

Please give the SS that it was a supercomputer and also show him consistently outperforming it in multiple areas, not just chess.

Nah, I'd win. I'm here to yap after all

Again, more yapping because you aren't proving it is anything more than a hype statement. Give scans that support it being anything more than that. Please.

Yep, that's me, mr yappy yappington

This was in regard to learning martial arts. I don't understand what is so hard to understand about perfect memory sufficiently aiding in being able to memorize a style of combat. It makes it far less impressive.

I sens genuine confusion here so I'll be serious. Memorizing a combat style ≠ mastering a combat style. Just cause you memorize football or basketball skills doesn't mean you can use them against athletes in real time. Learning to dribble by yourself/ against stationary objects isn't the same as doing it against the likes of CR 7 or the goat himself. If you can't understand that there's no saving you.

Children are capable of participating in martial arts training at age four.

I asked for children who mastered multiple martial arts, beat masters at it at that age. You really aren't helping yourself here. Participating isn't equal to mastering it. Playing princess ≠ actually mastering the etiquette, mannerisms and behaviors expected from one occupying such a position.

What separates Kouji is his memory. Also, saying memory doesn't aid anyone is mastering martial arts is absolutely HILARIOUS. Most of combat sports, and sports in general, is literally muscle memory.

All of what you mentioned here is significantly easier to master via Perfect Memory, btw. Literally all realms of human endeavor are.

Perfect memory is now the same as hand-eye coordination, superb motor skills, superior reflexes, ingrained instincts, well honed physical abilities? I guess a paraplegic with perfect memory can beat Usain bolt in a 100m dash now

Anyway I'm not responding to the rest of this. Also, I recommend that you chill out lol. Dude is just an anime character on a scaling website. Not need to get all furious xD.

I was chill, a fact which everyone seems to have missed. I rook that tone as well as this one in order to convey how much you are actually downplaying.

I'd simply ask for a single source of a human who has performed all of his feats or even come close to it before your points can be true because no human at the upper limit, peak is capable of or at the very least has yet to achieve it.

 

[AyeZ2]

That’s better. Although Ayanokoji still outperforms every human that’s ever lived in general intelligence.

The main thing that makes him scary is his ridiculous adaptation. He went from being like completely trash at skiing in Y2V8 to seeing someone do it once, analyzing how they did it, and replicating it so well to the point it was having Ryuen question why Ayanokoji even said he was new to skiing.

 

[Worthless]

The main thing that makes him scary is his ridiculous adaptation. He went from being like completely trash at skiing in Y2V8 to seeing someone do it once, analyzing how they did it, and replicating it so well to the point it was having Ryuen question why Ayanokoji even said he was new to skiing.

No joke but It's crazy to think that even his third leg is extra ordinary as well. Man took peak human to the next level

 

[wwereymy235]

The main thing that makes him scary is his ridiculous adaptation. He went from being like completely trash at skiing in Y2V8 to seeing someone do it once, analyzing how they did it, and replicating it so well to the point it was having Ryuen question why Ayanokoji even said he was new to skiing.

Exactly. He had PHD level professors leaving the whiteroom in just a few days because of how fast Ayanokoji learned the material. They had their heads down in defeat because they couldn’t believe what they had just witnessed. At the age of 9!

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah I think Ayanokouji is low-end Genius

 

[AyeZ2]

Exactly. He had PHD level professors leaving the whiteroom in just a few days because of how fast Ayanokoji learned the material. They had their heads down in defeat because they couldn’t believe what they had just witnessed.

He learned critical thinking at age 2. He beat 6 heavily trained armed whiteroom instructors completely bare handed as a child. Bro is just built different

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Koji is just extraordinary geniuses like Naruto and Zoro victim

Anyway agree with downgrade to Genius level.

 

[Dalesean027]

yeah I'm fine with very low end genius seeing everything up to now

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

You provided convincing logic overall, but there are a few things want to clarify.

This is due to his ability, which is perfect memory. This has nothing to do with intellect. It's a supernatural capability.

While it's true that a character having a perfect memory can be flimsy evidence of them being smart and a character can have photographic memory without incredible intelligence, it's still worth acknowledging that a person's capability to recall things plays a big part in achieving high intelligence. If we were inept at memorizing and recalling things, nothing advanced would go to long-term memory that we can effortlessly use because we wouldn't be able to train our brains to be familiar with information, so we wouldn't be able to get smart. Ayanokouji's ability completely bypasses any conflict involving needing to memorize something in order to get smart, so I think this is useful as supporting evidence.

Being gifted in chess is a hyper-specific area of human endeavor and being smart in chess does not equivalate to intelligence in other areas. This is perhaps best represented by real-world Grandmaster Hikaru Nakamura having an average IQ (102) despite being the #2 ranked player in the world.

A character being highly skilled at playing a game like chess proves they understand mind games and metagame. Obviously this alone wouldn't qualify for Extraordinary Genius, but it's relevant to more than solely playing the game.

Being knowledgeable in various fields isn't anything special. This is really vague as well. Again, not a supporting feat for Extraordinary Genius.

It's vague indeed, but it's potentially also one of the most important pieces of evidence. If those fields are important and different, then it makes Ayanokouji a polymath, which could be grounds for real people being classified as geniuses depending on how you judge such a thing. So, what fields Ayanokouji learned should definitely be looked into. I wouldn't know.

Another vague hype-statement that doesn't really mean anything in of itself.

That is true when judging it by itself, but if those many other characters have their own feats of brilliance, it gives context to the other statement about Ayanokouji being a genius among geniuses in a way that's significant.

My conclusion is that I vote to be neutral, but I'm likely to be convinced to agree, and I already agree that some of the information should be moved from the Intelligence section to the justification for photographic memory or be removed entirely.

 

[Rayfire]

Well this turned into a warzone quickly

 

[Rayfire]

It won’t

What if it does

 

[wwereymy235]

What if it does

Then people don’t know how to scale intelligence

 

[Worthless]

What if it does

There are two individuals here who is probably going flood this thread with future predictions through sheer mental calculations, outperforming a chess engine, and the vast amount of knowledge that Koji possesses in every field, in every categories

 

[wwereymy235]

There are two individuals here who is probably going flood this thread with future predictions through sheer mental calculations, outperforming a chess engine, and the vast amount of knowledge that Koji possesses in every field, in every categories

thehuntsman is going to comment on here later, he’s one of the people working on the koji doc

 

[Arceus0x]

Mid-end genius for sure. Phoenks lives in smartass land or sth cause in what world is a kid learning university level math and mastering sciences in a few days is gifted? Tf? Even if memory was not counted here, he'd still need to UNDERSTAND how science works so that he can actually apply it. He doesn't just screenshot shit, he uses what he remembers.
So we've got
-uni-level math at 4 y/o
-professors leaving in a few days because he learned their science
-learned a bunch of martial arts
-beat a futuristic chess super computer

The evidence against him being genius being an actual kid genius is hilarious.

Overall this CRT is a gross overestimation of what a genius is. The biggest geniuses on earth shouldn't be the minimum requirement of the genius intelligence mark.

 

[Arceus0x]

Anyways @Phoenks this you?

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

So OP gave a number of reasons why Ayanokouji should be downgraded to Genius or Gifted and based on rereading his profile it actually makes some sense. However that isn't because Ayanokouji deserves to be downgraded, rather because the correct justifications for his EG rating weren't coming across. As previously noted, OP didn't address any of the points from the CRT which made him EG in the first place and only what was on the profile, so I will lay out line by line with the VSBW definition of EG which OP also quoted any why Ayanokouji meets each of the criteria.

Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science – Ayanokouji studied a vast number of topics while in the White Room. The curriculum was constantly expanding and by age 5 he was already learning topics such as Mathematics, languages, natural and physical sciences, economics, and political science. We also know the topics of the White Room covered everything taught at ANHS while Ayanokouji was still a child. As such, Ayanokouji has a Graduate level education in a vast array of subjects which certainly qualifies as knowledge spreading over multiple fields, it is also important to note that even as a child his knowledge in each specific field was so great that "world class" instructors felt the need to leave the WR since they could not longer teach him anything.



Vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits – The human upper limit in terms of the WR curriculum is directly stated to be level 5. Anything higher than that has a 100% failure rate with Ayanokouji as the sole exception. This combined with his perfect memory, which is clearly different from a standard photographic memory, and his stated genetic mutation which allowed for him to succeed. As for him memory, his classification here as Photographic Memory isn’t consistent with its applications in the novels. He as the ability to actively manage which memories are recalled at will, he can organize his thoughts and memories to stop people from being able to cold read him, and his absorption of information is subconscious. Using the claim that his memory is merely photographic and that his basis of E.G. is grounded solely in that is both disingenuous and a strawman. Additionally claiming that Ayanokouji having a Perfect Memory makes his intelligence less valid is laughable ridiculous. This statement's lack of logical consistency is clear when we use it in other contexts. Having a power/ability can and does allow characters to qualify for different tiering and all of a sudden claiming that isn't true would be a blatant attempt to downgrade here under false pretenses.

NOT because he is smarter or more intelligent than normal people, no, but because he was just born with an unfair, supernatural advantage. It makes everything significantly easier.

At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, outperforming supercomputers – While Ayanokouji isn’t developing futuristic technology, he has shown many times that he can execute complex strategies even under high pressure. Escaping the White Room, Island Strategy, Paper Shuffle Strategy, Overall X Strategy, Knife Strategy with Housen, Second Island Exam, Voting Exam, and more. As for outperforming supercomputers there is the Chess Computer feat but VSBW defines this as such: “Outperforming supercomputers" is here used as an umbrella term for the ability to perform extremely advanced thought processes such as calculations and multitasking. Under this definition his aforementioned Perfect Memory encompasses this via his full memory recall feat (PMH) during V5. Here Ayanokouji, in an instant, searches his entire life’s memories for any trace of Arisu after she claims to know about him and the White Room. This is also supported by him in Y2V11 where he again references thinking through all his memories of his school life so far in that instant. Both cases show his extremely advanced through process through this massive amount of data management. While unlike the Chess Feat this isn’t a “calculation” it is representative of his thought process and his multitasking given his ability to do this during a normal conversation.



For those following this thread based solely on the information from Ayanokouji's profile and are unfamiliar with the source material or his specific strategies I can provide more detail if needed, however given how many there are and how involved it is to explain each one I'll leave that for a response if needed.

Even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations – Ayanokouji not only has multiple highly accurate prediction feats doing exactly this, but he also has a direct statement where he says he does this.



So in conclusion Ayanokouji's feats certainly do reach the level to qualify for Extraordinary Genius and his ability to do so has NOT been refuted by the OP. While he did point out why the profile wording isn't sufficient for portraying that and needs to be amended downgrading Ayanokouji from his EG rating would be incorrect. Given how this thread was formed on the basis of Ayanokouji not fulfilling the direct definition of EG according to VSBW standards this should clear up how he certainly does.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

thehuntsman is going to comment on here later, he’s one of the people working on the koji doc

I was predicted fr

 

[Qawsedf234]

Overall this CRT is a gross overestimation of what a genius is. The biggest geniuses on earth shouldn't be the minimum requirement of the genius intelligence mark.

To quote the page

Genius: Individuals with an exceptional capacity for knowledge and intelligence, usually in one area of varying depth. This level of intellect is the level of real-world geniuses, polymaths, and genuinely extremely prominent intellectuals, and, in the absence of better feats, should be the default intelligence category for fictional characters with exceptional or superhuman intelligence.

Being a polymath is enough to hit a Genius rating, which the character would qualify for. They just don't have the fictional levels of intelligence required for higher ratings. Calling them Gifted is seemingly a lowball.

So my vote would be a downgrade to Genius.

EDIT: Was made before the rebuttal.

 

[wwereymy235]

I was predicted fr

I’m literally Ayanokoji frfr

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

To quote the page

Being a polymath is enough to hit a Genius rating, which the character would qualify for. They just don't have the fictional levels of intelligence required for higher ratings. Calling them Gifted is seemingly a lowball.

So my vote would be a downgrade to Genius.

Except he clearly does have the qualifications for EG above just being a polymath. I went ahead and pointed out why he does have the level of intelligence and why relegating him to genius is incorrect based on that.

His higher rating is justified

 

[AyeZ2]

So OP gave a number of reasons why Ayanokouji should be downgraded to Genius or Gifted and based on rereading his profile it actually makes some sense. However that isn't because Ayanokouji deserves to be downgraded, rather because the correct justifications for his EG rating weren't coming across. As previously noted, OP didn't address any of the points from the CRT which made him EG in the first place and only what was on the profile, so I will lay out line by line with the VSBW definition of EG which OP also quoted any why Ayanokouji meets each of the criteria.

Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science – Ayanokouji studied a vast number of topics while in the White Room. The curriculum was constantly expanding and by age 5 he was already learning topics such as Mathematics, languages, natural and physical sciences, economics, and political science. We also know the topics of the White Room covered everything taught at ANHS while Ayanokouji was still a child. As such, Ayanokouji has a Graduate level education in a vast array of subjects which certainly qualifies as knowledge spreading over multiple fields, it is also important to note that even as a child his knowledge in each specific field was so great that "world class" instructors felt the need to leave the WR since they could not longer teach him anything.



Vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits – The human upper limit in terms of the WR curriculum is directly stated to be level 5. Anything higher than that has a 100% failure rate with Ayanokouji as the sole exception. This combined with his perfect memory, which is clearly different from a standard photographic memory, and his stated genetic mutation which allowed for him to succeed. As for him memory, his classification here as Photographic Memory isn’t consistent with its applications in the novels. He as the ability to actively manage which memories are recalled at will, he can organize his thoughts and memories to stop people from being able to cold read him, and his absorption of information is subconscious. Using the claim that his memory is merely photographic and that his basis of E.G. is grounded solely in that is both disingenuous and a strawman. Additionally claiming that Ayanokouji having a Perfect Memory makes his intelligence less valid is laughable ridiculous. This statement's lack of logical consistency is clear when we use it in other contexts. Having a power/ability can and does allow characters to qualify for different tiering and all of a sudden claiming that isn't true would be a blatant attempt to downgrade here under false pretenses.




At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, outperforming supercomputers – While Ayanokouji isn’t developing futuristic technology, he has shown many times that he can execute complex strategies even under high pressure. Escaping the White Room, Island Strategy, Paper Shuffle Strategy, Overall X Strategy, Knife Strategy with Housen, Second Island Exam, Voting Exam, and more. As for outperforming supercomputers there is the Chess Computer feat but VSBW defines this as such: “Outperforming supercomputers" is here used as an umbrella term for the ability to perform extremely advanced thought processes such as calculations and multitasking. Under this definition his aforementioned Perfect Memory encompasses this via his full memory recall feat (PMH) during V5. Here Ayanokouji, in an instant, searches his entire life’s memories for any trace of Arisu after she claims to know about him and the White Room. This is also supported by him in Y2V11 where he again references thinking through all his memories of his school life so far in that instant. Both cases show his extremely advanced through process through this massive amount of data management. While unlike the Chess Feat this isn’t a “calculation” it is representative of his thought process and his multitasking given his ability to do this during a normal conversation.



For those following this thread based solely on the information from Ayanokouji's profile and are unfamiliar with the source material or his specific strategies I can provide more detail if needed, however given how many there are and how involved it is to explain each one I'll leave that for a response if needed.

Even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations – Ayanokouji not only has multiple highly accurate prediction feats doing exactly this, but he also has a direct statement where he says he does this.



So in conclusion Ayanokouji's feats certainly do reach the level to qualify for Extraordinary Genius and his ability to do so has NOT been refuted by the OP. While he did point out why the profile wording isn't sufficient for portraying that and needs to be amended downgrading Ayanokouji from his EG rating would be incorrect. Given how this thread was formed on the basis of Ayanokouji not fulfilling the direct definition of EG according to VSBW standards this should clear up how he certainly does.

Always knew that Koji was smarter then Light in every way possible

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Always knew that Koji was smarter then Light in every way possible

While I don't necessarily disagree, there is a difference between Intelligence and Outsmarting. Koji happens to stomp Light in both but while here we are focused on Intelligence, SCD cares about Outsmarting.

 

[Rayfire]

Always knew that Koji was smarter then Light in every way possible