Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

[TheHuntsman1001]

It appears inconsistent to disregard the anime's visuals for the light novel, especially when we've previously considered them for other purposes. Not pointing fingers, but this feels like a case of selectively ignoring information, which comes across as somewhat biased.

I believe Reggor's point is that given the drastic differences between the LN and the anime making the blanket assumption that anime timeline events happen the same as in the LN in incorrect. Some examples:

40 students per class in the LN, 25 in the anime
Horikita helped Ayanokouji with the camera bluff in the Sudo trial, LN it was Ichinose
Horikita helped in the pool episode with the cameras, LN it was Kei
Planets Exam with 8 groups in the anime, Zodiac Exam 12 groups in the LN
Contruction site confrontation in the anime, Rooftop in the LN
etc.

So the point being that the Anime and LN are separate continuities that contain some similarities. If the anime offers additional information and context without replacing, contradicting, or otherwise breaking with the LN then some content can be used. However, when the content differs from the LN then it should be treated as a divergence from the source material and not used for scaling.

For the Chess Match, simply put the specific moves made in the anime are a divergence from the LN for the very reason that Arisu is a better chess player than any of the masters Koji beat in the WR. A true analysis of the anime match shows her ELO to be that of an intermediate player at best which is a clear break from the LN canon that contradicts that. What this argument is trying to do is override LN canon which states Arisu is a high level player and replace it with anime canon that she is intermediate. That is why such an argument is invalid.

The anime is just secondary canon, it is used for only timeframes for fight scenes or any additional information as long as it connects with the LN in any way. If two scenes differ greatly, then LN needs to be prioritized

Reggor can you confirm what I said above is correct.

 

[Worthless]

Horikita helped Ayanokouji with the camera bluff in the Sudo trial, LN it was Ichinose

I def remember it being Horikita and her realizing in the end that Ayanokoji led her to that action

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I def remember it being Horikita and her realizing in the end that Ayanokoji led her to that action

In the anime that is correct. In the LN that scene in the special building was Koji and Ichinose.

 

[Worthless]

In the anime that is correct. In the LN that scene in the special building was Koji and Ichinose.

This stuck me the most

“Hey, Ayanokouji-kun. Am I just your puppet?"

“My puppet? What are you talking about?”

“Ayanokouji-kun, you brought up the idea of surveillance cameras in the classrooms. Next, you took me to the special building and made me realize that there were no cameras. Then, you guided me to the idea of inventing false evidence, so that we could parse the truth from lies… When I look back on it now, that’s all I can think of.”

“You’re overthinking it. It’s just coincidence.”

“Who are you?”

“What do you mean, who am I? I’m just a guy who dislikes trouble, right?”

I realized that I had gotten involved a little too much this time. I’d need to reflect on that. The always-sharp Horikita probably guessed my thoughts, to some extent.
I had to dial it back a little.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

This stuck me the most

Yes. These are 2 separate scenes. Horikita went with him to the special annex and “got” the idea about cameras. But when he called the class C students out it was Ichinose who met them with him.

Later was this conversation about Horikita being manipulated.

 

[Worthless]

Yes. These are 2 separate scenes. Horikita went with him to the special annex and “got” the idea about cameras. But when he called the class C students out it was Ichinose who met them with him.

Later was this conversation about Horikita being manipulated.

I kind of remember the opposite, specially the part where she pretended there were cameras. But whatever it's been several years since the last time I read this vol

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

I believe Reggor's point is that given the drastic differences between the LN and the anime making the blanket assumption that anime timeline events happen the same as in the LN in incorrect. Some examples:

40 students per class in the LN, 25 in the anime
Horikita helped Ayanokouji with the camera bluff in the Sudo trial, LN it was Ichinose
Horikita helped in the pool episode with the cameras, LN it was Kei
Planets Exam with 8 groups in the anime, Zodiac Exam 12 groups in the LN
Contruction site confrontation in the anime, Rooftop in the LN
etc.

So the point being that the Anime and LN are separate continuities that contain some similarities. If the anime offers additional information and context without replacing, contradicting, or otherwise breaking with the LN then some content can be used. However, when the content differs from the LN then it should be treated as a divergence from the source material and not used for scaling.

For the Chess Match, simply put the specific moves made in the anime are a divergence from the LN for the very reason that Arisu is a better chess player than any of the masters Koji beat in the WR. A true analysis of the anime match shows her ELO to be that of an intermediate player at best which is a clear break from the LN canon that contradicts that. What this argument is trying to do is override LN canon which states Arisu is a high level player and replace it with anime canon that she is intermediate. That is why such an argument is invalid.

Reggor can you confirm what I said above is correct.

I'll reply to your other arguement later, but if this is the case and the LN & Anime are so vastly diffrent, why the f*ck are they on the same profile? You litteraly said that they are entirely seperate continuities. Why are we allowing feats from the anime in Ayanokouji's profile if that's the case? Shouldn't they have diffrent profiles if they differ to such a degree?

You're allowed to use things from the anime when it supports my point of view. But use it against me and oh nonononono, it's not actually canon and it is an entirely diffrent thing and how dare you ever even consider using things from the Anime to prove a point. But also if it offers additional information (that supports my point of view ofc) then yes you can fully use it 100% no questions asked

This is how you sound right now lmao

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I'll reply to your other arguement later, but if this is the case and the LN & Anime are so vastly diffrent, why the f*ck are they on the same profile? You litteraly said that they are entirely seperate continuities. Why are we allowing feats from the anime in Ayanokouji's profile if that's the case? Shouldn't they have diffrent profiles if they differ to such a degree?


This is how you sound right now lmao

Except I’m not using the anime to make my point. I’m saying if you need to use the anime to contradict the LN in making your point then you are making an invalid point.

Also idk why the LN and anime don’t have separate profiles but they do have separate keys. If you want to argue the anime key needs its intelligence section downgraded based on this go ahead, but doing so overall or for the LN is incorrect.

 

[Phoenks]

. What is the human limit for the curriculum. Now to your point about this information being possible to learn, just not by a child, which makes it less impressive. That is an incorrect evaluation of the WR curriculum. It isn’t just about being able to do this as a child or not, it’s about being able to maintain all that knowledge. While we don’t have much information about the specific curriculum of level 6-10 which were the levels deemed impossible and above human limits, we do know about level 4 (5th generation students did this) and the beta curriculum Koji did and we know 6-10 fall in between these. The main differences are the speed at which subjects are taught and how much they are expected to learn at once.

As for comparing this to “peak human” even the 5th gen students get very close to this and the 4th gen surpasses it by a lot. Peak Human Intelligence would be a polymath, someone who is highly adept in a variety of topics. 5th gen students reach this point by age 11-12, studying graduate level courses in their wide array of subjects. Unlike normal people who study just one or two subjects at this level, the WR continuously raises the difficulty over time until reaching this point. So by age 12 even the 5th gen has made its surviving students into polymaths + physical training. The 4th gen did this by age 5-6 with its students surpassing that peak human status after that. Since he has been mentioned before in this thread, we can refer to William James Sidis as an example of peak human which hasn’t been surpassed IRL.

So essentially it is vague, as I said, and there is no evidence so suggest these subjects are far beyond the peak human knowledge in these areas.

While I do think this is probably a good polymath feat valid for genius intellect, I don't see it being valid for Extraordinary Genius. There simply isn't enough evidence for that.

I don’t actually understand why you don’t agree with his memory being different from photographic given even your own points have his memory different from it. Otherwise, anyone with a photographic memory should be able to achieve results similar to Ayanokouji IRL, but that clearly isn’t the case. You are arguing that his memory is so advanced that he has feats above human limits only possible via his memory, but also claim his memory is not significantly different from a photographic memory. To be clear, I am arguing that Ayanokouji's Perfect Memory > Photographic Memory.

I am also under the belief that Ayanokouji's Perfect Memory is > Photographic Memory. I have been saying this since the beginning. This doesn't do you any good though. It just makes it even more beneficial to him in a way that makes his feats of learning information far less impressive.

What you seem to not realize is that nobody in the real world has photographic memory. It's a supernatural ability that doesn't exist, as I've stated and provided scans of earlier in this conversation. If it did exist, humans would 1000% be capable of what Kouji is capable of.

You are correct that Ayanokouji’s predictions are not the results of a supernatural ability, and that is exactly why it is valid for EG.

You misunderstand.

I'm saying that his level of prediction is not beyond human/reality. We see these kinds of predictions in the real world. Being able to decipher people's personalities and motives to predict them based on that information is not as impressive as you're trying to make it out to be.

 

[MCH2]

Wasn't there a feat where Ayanokouji beat a an advance chess supercomputer? Those supercomputers are more advanced than our IRL supercomputers and I've heard that modern chess bots can beat the best human Chess players in the world. I saw it in a TikTok video, it must be true.

Very specifically there are two sources to this:

1) A youtube slideshow video, which claimed he beat a supercomputer at 6, this is false. no mention of this exists in volume 0 whatsoever, in fact chess is barely mentioned.

2) During his match with Arisu Sakayanagi, who’s roughly equal to him in chess (according to both Sakayanagi and Kouji), the following is stated:

“He was planning to use a different move, at the time. An even better move than the best one we could’ve come up with. I had a significant number of personnel and even a dedicated machine in place, and we were still forced into making an extremely difficult decision.”

Excerpt From Classroom of the Elite Vol. 11

This has been a long cause of misinformation, with some people going as far that Ayanokouji out-computed a super computer. This is false, “making a better move than an engine on a machine” has been done before because engines evaluate moves differently than we do.

Lets also tackle the “Perfect Memory” : hyperbole and blatantly false, in fact just in the most recent volume, Ayanokouji forgot about the March class points from a year ago. Stating he forgot the exact amount (318 / 377) and remembering it as “around 350”. This is a piece of information he sees in Volume 11 and recalls in Volume 11.5.

Now lets circle back to what Ayanokouji DOES have :

- Academics :

- Math : HS Olympid math at 5, undergrad math at 6 and graduate level math at 7+

- Generally : The domains the WR covered were diverse, non inclusively including Japanese / English / Literature / Economics/ History / Social Studies / Mathmatics / Biology Physics / Chemistry.

- By the time he was 10+ professors were struggling to teach him, since he had already surpassed many of them. The knowledge he possesses is stated as being several fold what one possesses in a lifetime. and the WR reached their limit before he did.


- TLDR : College professor level knowledge in dozens of domains. Virtually limitless in knowledge.

- Memory :

- a lack of infantile amnesia and exceptionally well organized and managed memory. To the point he can select which memories to remember and which ones to discard, and to purposefully forget things that normally would be impossible to forget (someone you lived with for half your life). He still has ridiculous memory though given his academics. But “perfect” is hyperbole.

- TLDR : Beyond exceptional memory. Though it’s not 100% perfect.

- General intelligence :

- Chess : despite specializing in Japanese chess [LN V7.5] and not classical chess, he’s able to match Arisu who’s stated to be better than professional chess players, he’s also shown to make a better move than an engine. So one can say he’s IM as a lowball and mid-high GM as a fair estimate.

- Flash mental arithmetic : he casually exceeded the real life world record.

- “seeing ahead” : he does this, but extraordinary genius is more akin to precog to an extent. Every smart character possesses this to an extent, and Ayanokouji’s doesn’t reach Dazai’s foresight for example.


- Ability to create : he is completely incapable of this. Synthesizing new knowledge isn’t something he knows how to do. To the point that despite being an exceptional painter, he’s incapable of drawing anything out of his mind or creating an original painting.

- TLDR : Sky high general intelligence. Within a ballpark to L. Reliably can’t create new knowledge. the evidence to him outsmarting a supercomputer is flimsy at best.


The problem with putting someone like Kouji as an extraordinary genius is I’d argue he isn’t actually more of a genius than say, L (death note). He’s no rick.

 

[Deidalius]

Very specifically there are two sources to this:

1) a youtube slideshow video, which claimed he beat a supercomputer at 6, this is false. no mention of this exists in volume 0 whatsoever, in fact chess is barely mentioned.

2) during his match with Arisu Sakayanagi, who’s roughly equal to him in chess (according to both Sakayanagi and Kouji), the following is stated:

“He was planning to use a different move, at the time. An even better move than the best one we could’ve come up with. I had a significant number of personnel and even a dedicated machine in place, and we were still forced into making an extremely difficult decision.”

Excerpt From Classroom of the Elite Vol. 11

This has been a long cause of misinformation, with some people going as far that Ayanokouji out-computed a super computer. This is false, “making a better move than an engine” has been done before because engines evaluate moves differently than we do.

Lets also tackle the “Perfect Memory” : hyperbole and blatantly false, in fact just in the most recent volume, Ayanokouji forgot about the March class points from a year ago. Stating he forgot the exact amount (318 / 377) and remembering it as “around 350”. This is a piece of information he sees in Volume 11 and recalls in Volume 11.5.

Now lets circle back to what Ayanokouji does have :

- Academics :
- Math : [LN V0] he was doing AM-GM problems at 5. [Anime] he was proving e is irrational using Taylor expansion and a proof by contradiction at 6. [LN Y2V1] and he was solving graduate level math problems as a small child.
- Generally : The domains the WR covered were diverse, econ / polici / psychology / etc. by the time he was 10+ professors were struggling to teach him, since he had already surpassed many of them. The knowledge he possesses is stated as being several fold what one possesses in a lifetime.

- Memory : a lack of infantile amnesia and exceptionally well organized and managed memory. To the point he can select which memories to remember and which ones to discard, and to purposefully forget things that normally would be impossible to forget (someone you lived with for half your life). He still has ridiculous memory though given his academics. But “perfect” is hyperbole.

- General intelligence :
- Chess : despite specializing in Japanese chess [LN V7.5] and not classical chess, he’s able to match Arisu who’s stated to be better than professional chess players, he’s also shown to make a better move than an engine. So one can say he’s IM as a lowball and mid-high GM most likely.

- Flash mental arithmetic : casually exceeded real life world record

- “seeing ahead” : he does this, but extraordinary genius is more akin to precog to an extent. Every smart character possesses this to an extent, and even Ayanokoji has failed to anticipate moves.


The problem with putting someone like Kouji as an extraordinary genius is I’d argue he isn’t actually more of a genius than say, L (death note).

Wow, you're right, I have been misinformed then. In that case, I don't think Ayanokouji is an extraordinary genius, at least with that evidence.

 

[Phoenks]

Anyway this thread is getting pretty lengthy, hoping to wrap this up. Don't know what staff I should call though. Actually, I think I already have 2 staff votes, don't I?

Hm

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Very specifically there are two sources to this:

1) A youtube slideshow video, which claimed he beat a supercomputer at 6, this is false. no mention of this exists in volume 0 whatsoever, in fact chess is barely mentioned.

2) During his match with Arisu Sakayanagi, who’s roughly equal to him in chess (according to both Sakayanagi and Kouji), the following is stated:

“He was planning to use a different move, at the time. An even better move than the best one we could’ve come up with. I had a significant number of personnel and even a dedicated machine in place, and we were still forced into making an extremely difficult decision.”

Excerpt From Classroom of the Elite Vol. 11

This has been a long cause of misinformation, with some people going as far that Ayanokouji out-computed a super computer. This is false, “making a better move than an engine on a machine” has been done before because engines evaluate moves differently than we do.

Lets also tackle the “Perfect Memory” : hyperbole and blatantly false, in fact just in the most recent volume, Ayanokouji forgot about the March class points from a year ago. Stating he forgot the exact amount (318 / 377) and remembering it as “around 350”. This is a piece of information he sees in Volume 11 and recalls in Volume 11.5.

Now lets circle back to what Ayanokouji DOES have :

- Academics :

- Math : HS Olympid math at 5, undergrad math at 6 and graduate level math at 7+

- Generally : The domains the WR covered were diverse, non inclusively including Japanese / English / Literature / Economics/ History / Social Studies / Mathmatics / Biology Physics / Chemistry.

- By the time he was 10+ professors were struggling to teach him, since he had already surpassed many of them. The knowledge he possesses is stated as being several fold what one possesses in a lifetime. and the WR reached their limit before he did.


- TLDR : College professor level knowledge in dozens of domains. Virtually limitless in knowledge.

- Memory :

- a lack of infantile amnesia and exceptionally well organized and managed memory. To the point he can select which memories to remember and which ones to discard, and to purposefully forget things that normally would be impossible to forget (someone you lived with for half your life). He still has ridiculous memory though given his academics. But “perfect” is hyperbole.

- TLDR : Beyond exceptional memory. Though it’s not 100% perfect.

- General intelligence :

- Chess : despite specializing in Japanese chess [LN V7.5] and not classical chess, he’s able to match Arisu who’s stated to be better than professional chess players, he’s also shown to make a better move than an engine. So one can say he’s IM as a lowball and mid-high GM as a fair estimate.

- Flash mental arithmetic : he casually exceeded the real life world record.

- “seeing ahead” : he does this, but extraordinary genius is more akin to precog to an extent. Every smart character possesses this to an extent, and Ayanokouji’s doesn’t reach Dazai’s foresight for example.


- Ability to create : he is completely incapable of this. Synthesizing new knowledge isn’t something he knows how to do. To the point that despite being an exceptional painter, he’s incapable of drawing anything out of his mind or creating an original painting.

- TLDR : Sky high general intelligence. Within a ballpark to L. Reliably can’t create new knowledge. the evidence to him outsmarting a supercomputer is flimsy at best.


The problem with putting someone like Kouji as an extraordinary genius is I’d argue he isn’t actually more of a genius than say, L (death note). He’s no rick.

Honestly I'd say this changes my mind as well. He's highly intelligent, definetly peak human level intellect, but none of these feats scream "Extraordinary Genius" to me, just very very high Genius.

And thank you for mentioning the chess stuff, he at most has around a 2400 - 2600 ELO. Definetly impressive but not superhuman. Magnus Carlson still stomps in a chess game even while drunk

 

[XxZetsuxX]

In the E.G description, It says you need to be an expert at various fields

Koji at age 5 learned and mastered liberal arts which contains all of these



Not only that but he learned way more stuff than these including martial arts