Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

[RoggerReggor]

Noticed what?

The half of the OP is just about Kiyotaka doing his achievements based on his memory, which he VERBATIM debunks, but it has been ignored for like a couple of pages now.

 

[wwereymy235]

this made the text so big i unintentionally glossed over it

What text?

 

[HelloThere1089]

What text?

Idk. Maybe it's a prank.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Another thing we know is that Kiyotaka has a learning ability of basically only developing and developing, so if he countered a chess engine for once, he would do it collectively afterwards, which we may not know due to just the next move after the move being argued on, if messed up, would be a forced checkmate by Arisu and she would win. Debate with Huntsman about this if you want. You are making no new point now; this was addressed months ago and the debate just spiked up after the anime was released.

Bro is deflecting to me lol...but yeah you are right here. Based on his adaptability feats, if he continued to play a chess engine he would learn how to counter it.

This is because of a misinterpretation you made.

According to Tsukishiro’s evaluation, Ayanokouji made a better move than professionals using a machine. He never outplayed or outperformed a machine.

“Making a better move than an engine” has happened before, by people whom would never beat Stockfish in a million years. Again, this stems in the differential in how we vs engines view positions and moves.

Actually the one making a misinterpretation of this feat is you. Tsukishiro directly notes that he prepared many professionals and computers to account for Ayanokouji's options, so claiming that he didn't make a move better than an engine makes no sense on your part. In fact, having professionals along with the engines removes any possibility that the engine would pick a bad move or that it could be tricked as that is the point of human assistance. By specifically noting the professionals Tsukishiro employed you are giving reason for the feat to be even more solid.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

The half of the OP is just about Kiyotaka doing his achievements based on his memory, which he VERBATIM debunks, but it has been ignored for like a couple of pages now.

The other half was about Ayanokouji not meeting the other qualifications of an EG which has also been disproved. The different parts of the EG definition, which the OP also quoted in trying to show why Koji didn't fulfil it, were all listed out multiple times in this thread with each point explained with feats and LN scans to prove why Koji qualifies.

Honestly, I see no reason why this thread needs to continue since it should clearly be closed and rejected since all OPs claims regarding the downgrade from EG have been disproven and invalided with proof.

 

[wwereymy235]

TikTokers going to go crazy with this thread

 

[Phoenks]

I stopped replying to the "arguments" because we started going around in circles. I've already replied to what I felt was necessary to reply to. At this point, we are just waiting for staff to go to the thread and make a decision.

Also, again, my point was never that memory invalidated his feats. I only stated that it made them less impressive.

But, let me tell you something. Even disregarding memory from my argument entirely, and taking it to be a form of intelligence, Ayanokouji still wouldn't qualify. You've still yet to provide sufficient evidence that his academic knowledge surpasses the peak of humanity. You've honestly yet to provide anything that showcases Ayanokouji being at that level. The only aspect of him that is beyond humans is his memory. I'm sure you know by now what I think of that.

Qawsed himself also commented that being a polymath by itself is only a genius level of intelligence.

I'm also not insulting you. What I said before was just my observation. It seems to me that most of the neutral people on this thread agree with it, while those who support Kouji disagree. I was unaware that the term "fanboy" would be derogatory, but that's all I mean.

 

[NARONG_SUVAN]

I think question here is simple.

Does only being polymath and genius in multiple fields valid feat enough for EG?

Because from what I understand he never outperformed super computer or create any hyper-technology.

 

[Robo432343]

this thread has been derailed to death
we just need 1 more staff member

 

[LLA1400]

Bro sta deviando verso di me lol...ma sì, hai ragione. Sulla base delle sue imprese di adattabilità, se continuasse a giocare a un motore di scacchi imparerebbe a contrastarlo.

In realtà, chi sta interpretando male questa impresa sei tu. Tsukishiro nota direttamente di aver preparato molti professionisti e computer per tenere conto delle opzioni di Ayanokouji, quindi affermare che non ha fatto una mossa migliore di un motore non ha senso da parte tua. Infatti, avere dei professionisti insieme ai motori elimina ogni possibilità che il motore scelga una mossa sbagliata o che possa essere ingannato, poiché questo è lo scopo dell'assistenza umana. Notando specificamente i professionisti impiegati da Tsukishiro, stai dando ragione al fatto che l'impresa sia ancora più solida.

Huntsman your interpretation of CF was already debunked widely in SCD why are you trying to bring it here
anyway it seems they already took their decision, I think it's right to put Koji in genius category, although he's in a very high tier of it

 

[Phoenks]

I have updated the scoreboard.

It is currently 25 in agreement, to 5 in disagreement.

Among them, only 1 staff member has made a vote. That being Qaswed, who said he'd be genius, though this was relatively early in the thread.

Apologies for the mass ping.

 

[Phoenks]

By the way, I will mention that even in the case that it is accepted that Kouji will remain an Extraordinary Genius, his entire intelligence section would still need to be changed to reflect why.

You all already acknowledged that Ayanokouji's intelligence section is awful. Both those who agree and disagree with this thread seem to think that to be the case, so there's no reason for this thread to be closed.

I suggest that supporters start coming up with ways to reword his intelligence section now, so that it reflects his best traits and abilities first, without unnecessary statements.

 

[Worthless]

It is currently 25 in agreement, to 5 in disagreement.

Just saying, but the majority of them didn't bother waiting to see the opposition argument before voting, so I don't think it counts

 

[Phoenks]

Just saying, but the majority of them didn't bother waiting to see the opposition argument before voting, so I don't think it counts

And apparently I'm the one "coping." This is hilarious.

You're wrong, by the way. Majority of these people have seen the discourse surrounding the intelligence.

 

[Robo432343]

ngl that was some hard cope right there

 

[Worthless]

And apparently I'm the one "coping." This is hilarious.

You're wrong, by the way. Majority of these people have seen the discourse surrounding the intelligence.

There are more than eight people who didn't even bother waiting to hear what the main supporters had to say and that's supposed to be coping?

 

[Vietthai96]

I predicted many variable possiblities in my life, i always planning ahead how to use my money, what events could happen tomorrow, back when i still in school i always consider what subject i should focus in order to take exams, of which many of these predictions come true, these ***** happen all days to me, doesn't make me Gifted, let alone Extraordinary Genius. Predict and prepare what would come is a thing we human do all day lol, idk why it being argued as Extraordinary Genius, EG is when you can accurately predict future through your intelligence, or in short, perform Future Sight hax via sheer Intelligence, and Ayano never did this, so discussion about this point should be stopped

Anyway, there are some parts i disagree with OP, such as Ayano's memories being supernatural, people with good memory exist in real life, and especially within the context and foundation of the verse, having that good memory is considered natural, just because it is slightly more absurb than real life doesn't make it less natural, what important is how the verse considered it being natural or supernatural, then compare it to our standard. But i agree that using memory to support intelligence is wrong

Now come to chess, sure chess do involving intelligence, but it not major to the point that it dictate your IQ, can be used as minor suppporting evidence depending on contexts and feats, statements, but definitely not the main point. So from all the arguments presented so far in the thread, this point should be removed, cause we have little informations about this, and no please don't throw me the argument: "but this verse setting is in the future, so the computer must be advanced". This is a leap in logic, considering we have multiple verses that have setting in the future yet technology hardly advanced or advanced in a wierd ways, such as Fallout verse, this verse can't even invented transitor which are now crucial for computer, but have laser guns, rocket that fire mini nuke, etc.... Anyway just because a verse is set in the future doesn't mean every aspect of the world is more advanced than our real world, some progressed, some don't. Also we don't even know how far in the future COTE is set compare to our.

These is some of my arguments, i will post more when i have time

 

[HelloThere1089]

I predicted many variable possiblities in my life, i always planning ahead how to use my money, what events could happen tomorrow, back when i still in school i always consider what subject i should focus in order to take exams, of which many of these predictions come true, these ***** happen all days to me, doesn't make me Gifted, let alone Extraordinary Genius.

Naw bro, you're EG fr fr.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I predicted many variable possiblities in my life, i always planning ahead how to use my money, what events could happen tomorrow, back when i still in school i always consider what subject i should focus in order to take exams, of which many of these predictions come true, these ***** happen all days to me, doesn't make me Gifted, let alone Extraordinary Genius. Predict and prepare what would come is a thing we human do all day lol, idk why it being argued as Extraordinary Genius, EG is when you can accurately predict future through your intelligence, or in short, perform Future Sight hax via sheer Intelligence, and Ayano never did this, so discussion about this point should be stopped

Anyway, there are some parts i disagree with OP, such as Ayano's memories being supernatural, people with good memory exist in real life, and especially within the context and foundation of the verse, having that good memory is considered natural, just because it is slightly more absurb than real life doesn't make it less natural, what important is how the verse considered it being natural or supernatural, then compare it to our standard. But i agree that using memory to support intelligence is wrong

Now come to chess, sure chess do involving intelligence, but it not major to the point that it dictate your IQ, can be used as minor suppporting evidence depending on contexts and feats, statements, but definitely not the main point. So from all the arguments presented so far in the thread, this point should be removed, cause we have little informations about this, and no please don't throw me the argument: "but this verse setting is in the future, so the computer must be advanced". This is a leap in logic, considering we have multiple verses that have setting in the future yet technology hardly advanced or advanced in a wierd ways, such as Fallout verse, this verse can't even invented transitor which are now crucial for computer, but have laser guns, rocket that fire mini nuke, etc.... Anyway just because a verse is set in the future doesn't mean every aspect of the world is more advanced than our real world, some progressed, some don't. Also we don't even know how far in the future COTE is set compare to our.

These is some of my arguments, i will post more when i have time

we got irl EG before GTA6

 

[Phoenks]

Anyway, there are some parts i disagree with OP, such as Ayano's memories being supernatural, people with good memory exist in real life, and especially within the context and foundation of the verse, having that good memory is considered natural, just because it is slightly more absurb than real life doesn't make it less natural, what important is how the verse considered it being natural or supernatural, then compare it to our standard. But i agree that using memory to support intelligence is wrong

I've already thoroughly provided proof on this end. Photographic memory doesn't exist in reality. Photographic memory on the level of Kouji is so far beyond human ability it is inaccurate to call it natural in any capacity.

Does Photographic Memory Exist?

www.scientificamerican.com

There's No Such Thing as a Photographic Memory

Although there's no such thing as photographic memories, some children can see a picture in their mind's eye for a few minutes.

www.psychologytoday.com

If you agree that memory shouldn't be used to support here, then that's all the more reason to agree with my OP statement, not disagree with it.

Now come to chess, sure chess do involving intelligence, but it not major to the point that it dictate your IQ

I believe my OP statement already clarified that it actually doesn't have much to do with IQ.




Anyway, good to see you here. I just wanted to clarify some things to you before we go further.

 

[Vietthai96]

I've already thoroughly provided proof on this end. Photographic memory doesn't exist in reality. Photographic memory on the level of Kouji is so far beyond human ability it is inaccurate to call it natural in any capacity.

Iirc, isn't someone posted that his memory is not that perfected and not on the level of Photographic Memory??, also from what i know of the verse, it considered his level of memory is natural in the setting, that is the part i disagree with because i think his memory level, isn't something supernatural. But other than that i don't disagree with your point as memory should not be considered as intelligence, it could be used as conjunction with intelligence to achieve intelligence feats of course, but itself alone isn't

Anyway i will look back further to see more, but overall i agree that he should be downgraded to Genius, sure his feats is impressive and i believe he is mid-end to high-end Genius, but he not qualify for EG

About Combat IQ, i will tackle it later, if the thread is still open

 

[Vietthai96]

Edit: before that i think we should settle his normal IQ rating first being doing combat IQ, that is my opinion, this thread is 9 pages long already

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Huntsman your interpretation of CF was already debunked widely in SCD why are you trying to bring it here
anyway it seems they already took their decision, I think it's right to put Koji in genius category, although he's in a very high tier of it

This is an outright LIE so I don’t appreciate you claiming as such. There was never a valid debunk for chess feat in SCD. The 2 large attempts publicly failed. KK went circular immediately and all his debunk arguments were invalidated. As for Farhen, his were even worse. That guy was just lying about the context of the feat and faking information to try and debunk. Farhen was literally making things up in his so called debunks.

Just people people fought chess feat because they didn’t appreciate Koji scaling higher doesn’t mean it was validly debunked.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I stopped replying to the "arguments" because we started going around in circles. I've already replied to what I felt was necessary to reply to. At this point, we are just waiting for staff to go to the thread and make a decision.

Also, again, my point was never that memory invalidated his feats. I only stated that it made them less impressive.

The arguments you have not responded to:

Proof that Ayanokouji’s memory doesn’t make his feats less impressive that Reggor made. This is a main focus of your argument still and Reggor has debunked it more than once without your response.



Proof that Ayanokouji meets the following parts of the EG definition contrary to the OP post:

Knowledge in vast number of fields - you have agreed

Above human limits - you initially disagreed but you didn’t respond to the validation here

Many capable of technology - agreed Koji doesn’t meet this but it is many not all

Outperforming supercomputers/high levels of calculation - you have disagreed with chess feat but have been pushing for his perfect memory, and as such haven’t responded to his memory recall feats.

Complex strategies under pressure - you asked for more context and I provided but you didn’t respond.

Predicting the future - This has been a strange point, since Koji has multiple feats of doing such and a scan which has him explain how he considers all possibilities of a situation to determine how it will play out. Neither his future predictions nor the scan has been disproven. The claim that the line “it’s not that I see the future” was him pointing out that he can’t LITERALLY look into the future via supernatural means, so this is also not disproven.

So as of right now, the only point of EG which Koji doesn’t meet is the “futuristic technology” one and we have already established how that doesn’t apply to all EGs.

Ok, so talking about this. So, the entire "Kiyotaka's Learning Ability is due to Memory" argument comes from this single statement, or should I better refer to it as a theory:

Now, to provide the context. This statement/theory is given by Suzukake, the Generation 4 head instructor. Now, the thing about this is that Suzukake has already made a very bad statement by underrating Kiyotaka's emotional intelligence and saying that he didn't know what most people did, but as everyone who read the novel probably knows, Kiyotaka never really showed that he cared, and he was always attentive to others and used to make his own deductions upon people's emotions and even analyzed emotions in V0 monologues.

Funnily, Kiyotaka verbatim debunks this entire theory all by himself:

Here, in this statement by Kiyotaka himself. He implies that focusing on memorization without actually applying the basics wasn't really the thing to learn. He draws a fine line between him and other natural geniuses like Yuki and Shiro who got results all by their "sense", but he himself mentions that it was still possible to surpass them, and we know he does surpass them later on.

So again, first of all, Kiyotaka himself mentions that it isn't just memorization, but actually focusing on learning and applying the things learnt to yourself.

Now, going with the memory, so bidding on the fact that Photographic Memory can actually help you learn is not the best of the arguments. Firstly, Photographic Memory is an ability to learn things by just taking a glance at them, but let's be real, if a Photographic Memory user memorizes something in a glance, then it can be memorized by a normal human as well, just not with the same speed as the former, meaning that memorizing should ultimately be the key to learning, which is just false, because even if you were to memorize the basics, you may fail to apply them, which is the thing.

Also, Suzukake mentioned that Kiyotaka would face some consequences if he was really doing his learning via memorization, he would face negative effects of it, which he basically never does reportedly, and his learning is unwavered.

 

[Vietthai96]

So as of right now, the only point of EG which Koji doesn’t meet is the “futuristic technology” one and we have already established how that doesn’t apply to all EGs.

He doesn't meet more than just futuristic technology bruhh, EG require you to do future sight hax via sheer intelligence, predict the future with almost 100% accuracy, simply predicting variable possibilities based on existing elements like predicting exams or some ***** isn't going to land you into Genius, let alone EG. The chess feat isn't get elaborated upon, and nothing proved he beat supercomputer at all, and before you throw me "the verse set in the future so technology is more advanced" is a big leap in logic.

Only two things left is excel in all fields and above human upper limit, and lastly is making complex strategies under heavy pressure which you could argue about the former, but i hardly see the evidences for the later cause half the thread filled with unnecessary comments

 

[Phoenks]

Proof that Ayanokouji’s memory doesn’t make his feats less impressive that Reggor made. This is a main focus of your argument still and Reggor has debunked it more than once without your response.

The only thing he proved is that ayanokouji's memory allows him to selectively choose what he remembers. If anything it just makes the ability more broken.

EVEN regardless of his arguments, the point remains that even if you were to discard ALL of my memory arguments, it still wouldn't be evidence for Koji being Extraordinary Genius.

Knowledge in vast number of fields - you have agreed

Above human limits - you initially disagreed but you didn’t respond to the validation here

These two go together.

And, no, you haven't validated anything. He is close to if not a polymath. That alone is genius intelligence.

There is no proof or evidence of his knowledge equaling or surpassing humanity's greatest minds in the fields he is in.

Outperforming supercomputers/high levels of calculation - you have disagreed with chess feat but have been pushing for his perfect memory, and as such haven’t responded to his memory recall feats.

His memory is literally an ability.

Hell, even if it isn't an ability and this is just genuinely his wild capability to process his own memories, that is still NOT EVEN COMPARABLE to outperforming a supercomputer.

The chess feat itself has been debunked and destroyed so many times on this thread it is quite literally just useless for your argument. Drop it already.

Complex strategies under pressure - you asked for more context and I provided but you didn’t respond.

Not of the strategies provided are anything outside the realm of human endeavor. They're good supporting arguments for a genius rating, but not an Extraordinary Genius one.

Even Light Yagami and L have faaaaaaaaaaaar greater planning and strategic abilities.

Predicting the future - This has been a strange point, since Koji has multiple feats of doing such and a scan which has him explain how he considers all possibilities of a situation to determine how it will play out. Neither his future predictions nor the scan has been disproven. The claim that the line “it’s not that I see the future” was him pointing out that he can’t LITERALLY look into the future via supernatural means, so this is also not disproven.

As both I and Vietthai96 have stated, being able to predict other people's actions in the way he has is not equivalent to the "future prediction" that E.G requires. Nor is it anything outside the realm of what human beings are capable of. Many fields in the real world require such predictions. Business, Economy, Forecasting, etc. all require predictive measures using pre-absorbed information.




Everything I've said here, I've already said once before. Please stop wasting my time and crowding the thread by repeating yourself.

 

[Vietthai96]

I mean, predicting future via existing informations could land you into EG, but the requirement is extremely high, and definitely not what Ayano have ever done based on his feats, so this is out of question, and like @Phoenks have said we predict things all day depend on what we does, we not Gifted at all. Peoples with experiences could also predict things based on their experiences and knowledges gained over time, doesn't always translate to IQ either, let alone make them E.G

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Idk where the thread is at or concluded or not, i haven't gone through the whole 9 pages of the thread, but just in case if I miss smth plz let me know, since @Antvasima is the one who handles most of the self-evident intelligence revision thread I have asked about Ayanokouji's intelligence rating in past and this is what he said

Self-evident intelligence revisions thread

Quilge Opie is confirmed as the combat instructor of the Sternritter, does this bump up his intelligence? It seems like combat intelligence, at least with only limited information available. 🙏 What would Yagyu's intelligence be based on these screenshots of her thought process: Please...

vsbattles.com

 

[Phoenks]

Idk where the thread is at or concluded or not, i haven't gone through the whole 9 pages of the thread, but just in case if I miss smth plz let me know, since @Antvasima is the one who handles most of the self-evident intelligence revision thread I have asked about Ayanokouji's intelligence rating in past and this is what he said

Self-evident intelligence revisions thread

Quilge Opie is confirmed as the combat instructor of the Sternritter, does this bump up his intelligence? It seems like combat intelligence, at least with only limited information available. 🙏 What would Yagyu's intelligence be based on these screenshots of her thought process: Please...

vsbattles.com

Doesn't change anything. Ayanokouji doesn't surpass real-world humanity in any capacity aside from his memory.


@Antvasima what do you make of this thread? It is pretty lengthy, but given you put yourself on the knowledgeable members list for intelligence, perhaps you could be of some use here.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

He doesn't meet more than just futuristic technology bruhh, EG require you to do future sight hax via sheer intelligence, predict the future with almost 100% accuracy, simply predicting variable possibilities based on existing elements like predicting exams or some ***** isn't going to land you into Genius, let alone EG. The chess feat isn't get elaborated upon, and nothing proved he beat supercomputer at all, and before you throw me "the verse set in the future so technology is more advanced" is a big leap in logic.

Only two things left is excel in all fields and above human upper limit, and lastly is making complex strategies under heavy pressure which you could argue about the former, but i hardly see the evidences for the later cause half the thread filled with unnecessary comments

You are providing a head canon definition for the predicting the future qualification. The definition says “accurately predicting the future through mental calculations” which is EXACTLY what Koji does. Predicting the exact words, actions, and interactions of a group of people going into a conversation should qualify even under your definition. This is a similar feat to what Lelouch did to Mao and Schneizel in Code Geass but Koji did it to a room full of people at once.

As for the complex strategies piece I made a previous post explaining in more detail.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

There is no proof or evidence of his knowledge equaling or surpassing humanity's greatest minds in the fields he is in.

There is. I previously explained how the WR instructors are geniuses at the tops of their specific fields and also stated to be abke ti represent their fields on a global stage. Ayanokouji surpassed them to such a degree they ran out of things to teach and left the WR in shame.

 

[RoggerReggor]

He doesn't meet more than just futuristic technology bruhh, EG require you to do future sight hax via sheer intelligence, predict the future with almost 100% accuracy, simply predicting variable possibilities based on existing elements like predicting exams or some ***** isn't going to land you into Genius, let alone EG. The chess feat isn't get elaborated upon, and nothing proved he beat supercomputer at all, and before you throw me "the verse set in the future so technology is more advanced" is a big leap in logic.

Only two things left is excel in all fields and above human upper limit, and lastly is making complex strategies under heavy pressure which you could argue about the former, but i hardly see the evidences for the later cause half the thread filled with unnecessary comments

Being able to perform 100% future prediction is impossible, at least with mental calculations.

For example, your basic point in the thread is that Arisu and Ryuuen, who both were trying to have Kiyotaka's strategy fail by participating in a "Expel or get expelled context", but there was basically nothing which can even lead to the mental calculation of doing that.

The only way you can do it is via "intuition", which isn't a mental calculation but literally just the feeling of your gut.

And half the thread is filled with nonsense instead of arguments, which includes jokes, sarcasm-associated messages, biased views for both sides I would say and failed analogies for joking purposes which waste the time of everyone and has successfully helped this thread reach 9 pages.

I remember coming here when it was 3-4 pages already.

Secondly, Huntsman already explained the points about complex strategy (with a 26-factor complexity to be taken care of), and three more strategies where he was the perfect counter, but no one, literally not a single soul has given any fair respect to the messages of Huntsman except a few, and there were no counter-arguments to that in any way, so even considering it as "debunked" is crazy.

At this point, it feels like majority of the messages are being ignored than being responded with meaningful criticism.

 

[HelloThere1089]

There is. I previously explained how the WR instructors are geniuses at the tops of their specific fields and also stated to be abke ti represent their fields on a global stage. Ayanokouji surpassed them to such a degree they ran out of things to teach and left the WR in shame.

The smartest people on earth have also surpassed some fields or the other and have no peers. But that doesn't make them EG. The characters need to demonstrate that their knowledge surpasses real world upper limit not just them being stated to be the upper limit of their verse. There are geniuses smarter than other geniuses. Just a blanket statement that Koji is smarter than all the other geniuses in his own verse means nothing in terms of EG. You need to show that Koji's expertise in these specific fields far surpasses real world upper limits. For example if someone "invented completely green energy without any drawbacks and is more feasible and efficient than current energy options". This demonstrates that his knowledge and expertise surpasses real world upper limits because this hasn't been done yet.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Secondly, Huntsman already explained the points about complex strategy (with a 26-factor complexity to be taken care of), and three more strategies where he was the perfect counter, but no one, literally not a single soul has given any fair respect to the messages of Huntsman except a few, and there were no counter-arguments to that in any way, so even considering it as "debunked" is crazy.

At this point, it feels like majority of the messages are being ignored than being responded with meaningful criticism.

I haven’t seen a SINGLE response to that post, which OP asked for since he wanted additional explanation of the complex strategies part, aside from him just saying Light/L are better with no explanation, no reasoning, and just saying such strategies are possible irl. Given that COTE takes place in a world similar to ours…ofc events from the verse are possible irl.

The second point is what I was trying to point out earlier. OP made initial arguments and those were responded to. From there many of those counter arguments were never refuted. OP just restated their original premise, and claimed any evidence for EG shown is “not sufficient” or “sufficient for Genius but not EG”. The entire point is that on their own, many of those point would only qualify for Genius, but since Ayanokouji has ALL these factors he is EG.

 

[Worthless]

There is. I previously explained how the WR instructors are geniuses at the tops of their specific fields and also stated to be abke ti represent their fields on a global stage

I don’t remember the details anymore, as it's been many years, but I’m sure there was a statement in volume 11 that said he is good at thi certain thing to the extent that his level in it is are at a national representative level, which the narratives implies his level is more than that

 

[RoggerReggor]

These two go together.

And, no, you haven't validated anything. He is close to if not a polymath. That alone is genius intelligence.

There is no proof or evidence of his knowledge equaling or surpassing humanity's greatest minds in the fields he is in.

About 1 page ago... I already tried to explain how it is just not even a fair comparison.

Every White Room instructor is a professional in their field.

By the age of 12, any White Room subject who was in Generation 4 and survived beyond age 9 was metaphorically referred to as a "monster", and basically outperformed all of the researchers and leaders, who would be instructors.

These instructors are said to have superficial knowledge in their respective fields, meaning that if we were to have them characterized in terms of real-world standards, they would go beyond master's degrees or PhDs. Kiyotaka was taught everything by them and surpassed them, meaning that the knowledge Kiyotaka possesses is above the collective knowledge of every instructor (who would be professionals in their own fields), considering the amount of knowledge and the fields in which he has them, he would already be a polymath (or basically beyond it).

Kiyotaka heavily outclasses the likes of polymaths like Leonardo da Vinci as well, especially because the amount of knowledge da Vinci learnt cannot be compared to Kiyotaka's. da Vinci was living in 1400s while the maximum research done in science and technology was from 1600s to today. Fields like magnetostatics and electrostatics were revolutionized mainly in 1800s to 1900s and Kiyotaka had to learn about 600 more years of history, sciences and mathematical discoveries, which would basically be much more and almost 10 times more than what da Vinci learnt. In fact, even current polymaths like Nathan Myhrvold, Stephen Hawking, Elon Musk, Art Garfunkel, would fall way beyond in comparison to Kiyotaka.

Kiyotaka is beyond just a polymath, and you can never argue against it. Regarding him as polymath may as well just be an understatement.

Even Light Yagami and L have faaaaaaaaaaaar greater planning and strategic abilities.

Alright, after this thread, let's do a Kiyotaka vs Light Yagami outsmarting battle in a VS thread (though it already happened and I don't know where people were around that time).

The basic premise to prove this statement wrong would be by getting Ayanokouji just close to Light, meaning that the "faaaaaaaaaaaar" adjective would literally be just an overstatement, would be very funny if someone actually gets Kiyotaka's planning and strategic abilities above them.

About L, it may be done later on.

The smartest people on earth have also surpassed some fields or the other and have no peers. But that doesn't make them EG. The characters need to demonstrate that their knowledge surpasses real world upper limit not just them being stated to be the upper limit of their verse. There are geniuses smarter than other geniuses. Just a blanket statement that Koji is smarter than all the other geniuses in his own verse means nothing in terms of EG. You need to show that Koji's expertise in these specific fields far surpasses real world upper limits. For example if someone "invented completely green energy without any drawbacks and is more feasible and efficient than current energy options". This demonstrates that his knowledge and expertise surpasses real world upper limits because this hasn't been done yet.

If any criticizer read the entire thread, or even his profile, and that too, WELL-READ, then you would realize that he verbatim has a statement where his knowledge is characterized to be above what a human can obtain in their entire life, just at the age of 16, so no, this wouldn't even be an argument.

And no, the futuristic technology point is not for every E.G., the wiki describes it as "many make futuristic inventions", not "all should make futuristic inventions".

 

[Vietthai96]

Being able to perform 100% future prediction is impossible, at least with mental calculations

It is because exactly it is near impossible to do that, that why character capable of doing such feat get E.G. And before you jump on me, there are characters capable of doing so

You are providing a head canon definition for the predicting the future qualification

Sorry, but you saying me providing headcanon, yet do not prove why it is headcanon

The definition says “accurately predicting the future through mental calculations” which is EXACTLY what Koji does

This is what you think it is, but what you personally think isn't mean it is fact

Predicting the exact words, actions, and interactions of a group of people going into a conversation should qualify even under your definition

Did you even read my definition, and what @Phoenks said, these things not gonna land you into E.G

Anyway i'm busy cause i have my CRT need to be applied, i probably will return way later

 

[RoggerReggor]

I haven’t seen a SINGLE response to that post, which OP asked for since he wanted additional explanation of the complex strategies part, aside from him just saying Light/L are better with no explanation, no reasoning, and just saying such strategies are possible irl. Given that COTE takes place in a world similar to ours…ofc events from the verse are possible irl.

The second point is what I was trying to point out earlier. OP made initial arguments and those were responded to. From there many of those counter arguments were never refuted. OP just restated their original premise, and claimed any evidence for EG shown is “not sufficient” or “sufficient for Genius but not EG”. The entire point is that on their own, many of those point would only qualify for Genius, but since Ayanokouji has ALL these factors he is EG.

Very true.

Also, the 100% prediction stuff caught me off guard. That would mean that any E.G. who got outsmarted even for once, even slightly would never meet the "prediction" criteria if you actually needed 100% prediction. This would mean that Sora who is basically Supergenius, who got outsmarted by Stephanie but didn't receive any major loss and just got deceived slightly wouldn't be meeting the E.G. prediction criteria itself, lmao, look where we got.

Tony (or Iron Man) would be the same because I remember that when I read the Galactus scheme, he was unsuccessful in fully understanding it, meaning that he also would never meet it.

Dazai, a god of intuition, couldn't predict Fyodor's actions in the recent arc.

So, yeah, I would repeat again, LOOK WHERE WE GOT.

 

[RoggerReggor]

It is because exactly it is near impossible to do that, that why character capable of doing such feat get E.G. And before you jump on me, there are characters capable of doing so

I address this just a message prior. The 100% criteria cannot be a thing and will never be, unless you had the intuition of a god (which would be outright something supergenius) or omniscient intelligence to its most definite degree.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Very true.

Also, the 100% prediction stuff caught me off guard. That would mean that any E.G. who got outsmarted even for once, even slightly would never meet the "prediction" criteria if you actually needed 100% prediction. This would mean that Sora who is basically Supergenius, who got outsmarted by Stephanie but didn't receive any major loss and just got deceived slightly wouldn't be meeting the E.G. prediction criteria itself, lmao, look where we got.

Tony (or Iron Man) would be the same because I remember that when I read the Galactus scheme, he was unsuccessful in fully understanding it, meaning that he also would never meet it.

Dazai, a god of intuition, couldn't predict Fyodor's actions in the recent arc.

So, yeah, I would repeat again, LOOK WHERE WE GOT.

I wasn’t even thinking of it this way but LOL that’s true.