Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

[TheHuntsman1001]

Anyways after skimming through the arguments, I would agree with a genius rating. I think a lot of these feats have the "implied growth" issue. It shows you insane levels of knowledge at a preliminary stage but that doesn't mean that said character grows. It's like measuring someone in skill at sports who can play on the level of NBA all stars at the age of 18. We look at a player like that and think "he could be the greatest of all time" because he does great things from young but this doesn't mean said person will his reach his "potential."

I would prefer if there was more evidence of Koji being at full capacity in his current stage rather than "he was a master at multiple martial arts before reaching the age of 10."

The main point from this is Ayanokouji did the training/learning which puts him in line with an EG rating at a young age. It isn’t a matter of “implied growth” since the growth we do know about is enough to show that.

His knowledge level in the vast number of subjects we have discussed is above the level of geniuses in their respective fields. While this is while Koji is age 10-11 that doesn’t really matter. You are right that he did continue to improve for another 4-5 years and the exact limits of that are unknown, but this level matches the definition of EG so it doesn’t matter.

Yeah tbh, it feels absurd given the people that are in gifted (the re zero cast etc) and how even more absurd the feats of people in EG combat are (Mori Dan, Taskmaster etc)

Honestly comparing to other profiles and saying X is above or below them doesn’t seem like valid reasons to downgrade or upgrade. This same logic wouldn’t be a valid reason to upgrade a profile, so if you really think profiles with “Gifted” have characters above Koji then make a CRT for them. But using that as basis for his downgrade seems invalid.

 

[Robo432343]

why do we have to say that he is gifted in battle intelligence on the profile????

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Honestly comparing to other profiles and saying X is above or below them doesn’t seem like valid reasons to downgrade or upgrade. This same logic wouldn’t be a valid reason to upgrade a profile, so if you really think profiles with “Gifted” have characters above Koji then make a CRT for them. But using that as basis for his downgrade seems invalid.

Why? Gifted characters have a standard limit and Kouji isnt even close to the top. Instead of oversaturating the "Genius" rating just so we could add one more character it did make more sense for the lesser skilled one to just join the gifted tier
Plus, its not like all of the gifted characters more skilled than Kouji deserve a genius rating so your argument doesnt even make sense

 

[Hixkaryana]

The main point from this is Ayanokouji did the training/learning which puts him in line with an EG rating at a young age. It isn’t a matter of “implied growth” since the growth we do know about is enough to show that.

His knowledge level in the vast number of subjects we have discussed is above the level of geniuses in their respective fields. While this is while Koji is age 10-11 that doesn’t really matter. You are right that he did continue to improve for another 4-5 years and the exact limits of that are unknown, but this level matches the definition of EG so it doesn’t matter.

Even with the growth implied he doesn't have the necessary feats to even classify as an EG, he's missing several necessary criterias "At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology" seen nowhere, "and even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations." seen nowhere. His only feats of "predictions" are assumptions based on very frail probabilities.

Honestly comparing to other profiles and saying X is above or below them doesn’t seem like valid reasons to downgrade or upgrade. This same logic wouldn’t be a valid reason to upgrade a profile, so if you really think profiles with “Gifted” have characters above Koji then make a CRT for them. But using that as basis for his downgrade seems invalid.

It's effective to have a standing point whether or not he should be an EG, if we put him as an EG he should at least have a chance to rival against other EG's. And if we put him as Gifted he should be comparable to other Gifted etc...

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Why? Gifted characters have a standard limit and Kouji isnt even close to the top. Instead of oversaturating the "Genius" rating just so we could add one more character it did make more sense for the lesser skilled one to just join the gifted tier
Plus, its not like all of the gifted characters more skilled than Kouji deserve a genius rating so your argument doesnt even make sense

To be clear him not speaking from the perspective of his BIQ, and I don’t pretend to know about all the Gifted characters on the wiki. But Koji EASILY DESTROYS the wiki definition of Gifted so if you think there are gifted characters above him, they deserve a CRT but are NOT grounds to downgrade Koji.

Gifted: Characters who demonstrate high reasoning ability, can master difficult concepts with few repetitions, and display high performance capability or notable mastery in intellectual or specific academic fields, which makes them equivalent to real-world experts in these areas.

 

[Hixkaryana]

To be clear him not speaking from the perspective of his BIQ, and I don’t pretend to know about all the Gifted characters on the wiki. But Koji EASILY DESTROYS the wiki definition of Gifted so if you think there are gifted characters above him, they deserve a CRT but are NOT grounds to downgrade Koji.

Gifted: Characters who demonstrate high reasoning ability, can master difficult concepts with few repetitions, and display high performance capability or notable mastery in intellectual or specific academic fields, which makes them equivalent to real-world experts in these areas.

So you would put him at Genius-level in Combat? You're saying his proficiency and skills in battle are equal to his mathematical, social and academical skills? That's just crazy.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Even with the growth implied he doesn't have the necessary feats to even classify as an EG, he's missing several necessary criterias "At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology" seen nowhere, "and even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations." seen nowhere. His only feats of "predictions" are assumptions based on very frail probabilities.

For the futuristic technology piece, it specifically says “many are capable” not “all are” or “they are”. There are characters who have an EG rating without creating technology and Koji meets the other criteria.

For predicting the future, this isn’t flimsy. I already posted scans in this thread for 2 of his prediction feats with one of them being a DIRECT statement of his ability to consider all variables in a situation and use them to predict future events.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

To be clear him not speaking from the perspective of his BIQ, and I don’t pretend to know about all the Gifted characters on the wiki. But Koji EASILY DESTROYS the wiki definition of Gifted so if you think there are gifted characters above him, they deserve a CRT but are NOT grounds to downgrade Koji.

Gifted: Characters who demonstrate high reasoning ability, can master difficult concepts with few repetitions, and display high performance capability or notable mastery in intellectual or specific academic fields, which makes them equivalent to real-world experts in these areas.

Yeah the issue is that they arent Genius and do not fulfill the requirements FOR being genius in combat skill but absolutely destroy Ayanokouji in pure raw skill, its to the point that it is debatable if Kouji would even manage to land a single hit on them, stat equalized.

Genius: Individuals with an exceptional capacity for knowledge and intelligence, usually in one area of varying depth. This level of intellect is the level of real-world geniuses, polymaths, and genuinely extremely prominent intellectuals, and, in the absence of better feats, should be the default intelligence category for fictional characters with exceptional or superhuman intelligence.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

So you would put him at Genius-level in Combat? You're saying his proficiency and skills in battle are equal to his mathematical, social and academical skills? That's just crazy.

No, I agree his academic abilities are above his martial ones. However, his record of thousands of fights, his knowledge of a large number of disciplines, his combat adaptability, and his ability to analyze other’s fighting skills all lend themselves to a Genius level of combat intelligence.

He is an EG in intelligence and Genius in combat.

 

[Robo432343]

Koji gets some of his battle intelligence scaling from Shiba
Look at how dry Shiba's combat intelligence is
"possibly Genius in combat. (A skilled teacher in martial arts. Was able to act as an ordinary teacher while teaching Class 1-D. Shiba is always calm and composed, being able to make difficult decisions quickly and without hesitation. Is implied to be a White Room instructor in combat, with White Room instructors being geniuses and masters of their respective subjects.)"

this doesn't qualify for genius combat at all

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Yeah the issue is that they arent Genius and do not fulfill the requirements FOR being genius in combat skill but absolutely destroy Ayanokouji in pure raw skill, its to the point that it is debatable if Kouji would even manage to land a single hit on them, stat equalized.

I see your point. I don’t think a genius in combat is based solely on skills though. It’s also based on combat adaptability, the amount of knowledge on combat they have, and their learning ability.

So idk which characters you are referring to and whether they deserve a Genius rating in combat. Also I’m pretty sure noting a difference is usually for characters with e.g, average intelligence but Genius in Combat. I haven’t seen Genius and up characters have a “separate” combat intelligence rating before.

 

[Hixkaryana]

For predicting the future, this isn’t flimsy. I already posted scans in this thread for 2 of his prediction feats with one of them being a DIRECT statement of his ability to consider all variables in a situation and use them to predict future events.

He didn't know the future, this is more a strategy feat than an intelligence one. He basically took every variable and made solutions for them, he couldn't guess what variable was gonna drop, that's not seeing the future.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I see your point. I don’t think a genius in combat is based solely on skills though. It’s also based on combat adaptability, the amount of knowledge on combat they have, and their learning ability.

I will take Elsa as an example, any attack she sees once will never be able to work on her again because of her adaptability. Even if they are in danmaku afterwards

Gifted (Elsa has freakish skill[17] which lets her avoid attacks, in a cellar with very little room to move around. Has godlike skill which lets her counter Puck's countless ice attacks, she paired with what Puck could do in number with an overwhelming degree of skill[5]. Despite being attacked in her blind spot[5], at the right moment and angle, she easily avoid it. Can easily counter attacks aimed behind her[5], that she can't even see. Even under the effects of Shamak, which affects the senses[9], was still able to not only accurately target her enemies vitals[9], but also avoid an attack which destroyed the entire room she was in[9]. Every technique she sees in battle doesn't work twice[4], even if done in overwhelming numbers. She has overwhelming combat intuition[4], and impossibly fine control over her own body)

She can also dodge an AoE which fills up the entire room and blasts it to pieces..without exiting said room

Kouji has NO chance of hitting her at all, that is just how big of a freakish gap there is in between them

So idk which characters you are referring to and whether they deserve a Genius rating in combat. Also I’m pretty sure noting a difference is usually for characters with e.g, average intelligence but Genius in Combat. I haven’t seen Genius and up characters have a “separate” combat intelligence rating before.

if its a different rating then it should be made clear on the profile, if it isnt for certain characters then thats just a sign of a bad profile

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

He didn't know the future, this is more a strategy feat than an intelligence one. He basically took every variable and made solutions for them, he couldn't guess what variable was gonna drop, that's not seeing the future.

When he says he didn’t see the future, he means literally. I thought that much was obvious, as in he doesn’t have the ability to see into the future. However, right afterward he talks about considering every possibility to determine how the exam would play out in advance.

 

[Hixkaryana]

When he says he didn’t see the future, he means literally. I thought that much was obvious, as in he doesn’t have the ability to see into the future. However, right afterward he talks about considering every possibility to determine how the exam would play out in advance.

Yes and I got that part thank you, but if he took his probabilities to the furthest point he could've guessed what variable event would've happened, not only gathering all possibilities but also accurately predicting the future.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Yes and I got that part thank you, but if he took his probabilities to the furthest point he could've guessed what variable event would've happened, not only gathering all possibilities but also accurately predicting the future.

That is exactly what he did though. He considered the variables surrounding the exam e.g. what people would do and how they would react at different staged, then he used that to accurately predict how the events would play out.

 

[Hixkaryana]

That is exactly what he did though. He considered the variables surrounding the exam e.g. what people would do and how they would react at different staged, then he used that to accurately predict how the events would play out.

Well he clearly said he gathered all possible endings and variations, he never said ONE was going to forcefully happen, he just knew what would happen in a continuity of events. Also to add he's been shown to be inconsistant at times, especially in V.5 where he didn't expect for some participants to forfeit from the Sports Festival, which is one variable he didn't see coming.

 

[Zabazab]

I will take Elsa as an example, any attack she sees once will never be able to work on her again because of her adaptability. Even if they are in danmaku afterwards

She's probably getting Genius (eventually)

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

here.

Aizen is a cosmic fuckton above Ayano in intelligence, kid Aizen would be smarter than all of COTE.

 

[Phoenks]

I'm completely fine with Genius in overall intelligence and knowledge with Gifted battle intelligence. Sounds fair to me.

I will call back the staff who participated

@CrimsonStarFallen @Dalesean027 @Qawsedf234

Idk who else really cares in the staff team though.

 

[MCH2]

The way Ayanokouji operates is that he has plans and adjustments based on most possibilities. he isn’t seeing the future. There are things he fails to anticipate, etc.

The way he approached the EoY Special exam recently was similar, no matter which class won or lost he was planning to intervene accordingly. But he failed to anticipate that Ryuen and Arisu would bet that the loser would leave the school.

If we say Koji sees the future, than Patrick Jane and Baku also see the future. I think the standard for “seeing the future” is more akin to precog, or Dazai knowing what’s happening outside the jail through sheer prediction.