Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

[TheHuntsman1001]

Anyways after skimming through the arguments, I would agree with a genius rating. I think a lot of these feats have the "implied growth" issue. It shows you insane levels of knowledge at a preliminary stage but that doesn't mean that said character grows. It's like measuring someone in skill at sports who can play on the level of NBA all stars at the age of 18. We look at a player like that and think "he could be the greatest of all time" because he does great things from young but this doesn't mean said person will his reach his "potential."

I would prefer if there was more evidence of Koji being at full capacity in his current stage rather than "he was a master at multiple martial arts before reaching the age of 10."

The main point from this is Ayanokouji did the training/learning which puts him in line with an EG rating at a young age. It isn’t a matter of “implied growth” since the growth we do know about is enough to show that.

His knowledge level in the vast number of subjects we have discussed is above the level of geniuses in their respective fields. While this is while Koji is age 10-11 that doesn’t really matter. You are right that he did continue to improve for another 4-5 years and the exact limits of that are unknown, but this level matches the definition of EG so it doesn’t matter.

Yeah tbh, it feels absurd given the people that are in gifted (the re zero cast etc) and how even more absurd the feats of people in EG combat are (Mori Dan, Taskmaster etc)

Honestly comparing to other profiles and saying X is above or below them doesn’t seem like valid reasons to downgrade or upgrade. This same logic wouldn’t be a valid reason to upgrade a profile, so if you really think profiles with “Gifted” have characters above Koji then make a CRT for them. But using that as basis for his downgrade seems invalid.

 

[Robo432343]

why do we have to say that he is gifted in battle intelligence on the profile????

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Honestly comparing to other profiles and saying X is above or below them doesn’t seem like valid reasons to downgrade or upgrade. This same logic wouldn’t be a valid reason to upgrade a profile, so if you really think profiles with “Gifted” have characters above Koji then make a CRT for them. But using that as basis for his downgrade seems invalid.

Why? Gifted characters have a standard limit and Kouji isnt even close to the top. Instead of oversaturating the "Genius" rating just so we could add one more character it did make more sense for the lesser skilled one to just join the gifted tier
Plus, its not like all of the gifted characters more skilled than Kouji deserve a genius rating so your argument doesnt even make sense

 

[Hixkaryana]

The main point from this is Ayanokouji did the training/learning which puts him in line with an EG rating at a young age. It isn’t a matter of “implied growth” since the growth we do know about is enough to show that.

His knowledge level in the vast number of subjects we have discussed is above the level of geniuses in their respective fields. While this is while Koji is age 10-11 that doesn’t really matter. You are right that he did continue to improve for another 4-5 years and the exact limits of that are unknown, but this level matches the definition of EG so it doesn’t matter.

Even with the growth implied he doesn't have the necessary feats to even classify as an EG, he's missing several necessary criterias "At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology" seen nowhere, "and even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations." seen nowhere. His only feats of "predictions" are assumptions based on very frail probabilities.

Honestly comparing to other profiles and saying X is above or below them doesn’t seem like valid reasons to downgrade or upgrade. This same logic wouldn’t be a valid reason to upgrade a profile, so if you really think profiles with “Gifted” have characters above Koji then make a CRT for them. But using that as basis for his downgrade seems invalid.

It's effective to have a standing point whether or not he should be an EG, if we put him as an EG he should at least have a chance to rival against other EG's. And if we put him as Gifted he should be comparable to other Gifted etc...

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Why? Gifted characters have a standard limit and Kouji isnt even close to the top. Instead of oversaturating the "Genius" rating just so we could add one more character it did make more sense for the lesser skilled one to just join the gifted tier
Plus, its not like all of the gifted characters more skilled than Kouji deserve a genius rating so your argument doesnt even make sense

To be clear him not speaking from the perspective of his BIQ, and I don’t pretend to know about all the Gifted characters on the wiki. But Koji EASILY DESTROYS the wiki definition of Gifted so if you think there are gifted characters above him, they deserve a CRT but are NOT grounds to downgrade Koji.

Gifted: Characters who demonstrate high reasoning ability, can master difficult concepts with few repetitions, and display high performance capability or notable mastery in intellectual or specific academic fields, which makes them equivalent to real-world experts in these areas.

 

[Hixkaryana]

To be clear him not speaking from the perspective of his BIQ, and I don’t pretend to know about all the Gifted characters on the wiki. But Koji EASILY DESTROYS the wiki definition of Gifted so if you think there are gifted characters above him, they deserve a CRT but are NOT grounds to downgrade Koji.

Gifted: Characters who demonstrate high reasoning ability, can master difficult concepts with few repetitions, and display high performance capability or notable mastery in intellectual or specific academic fields, which makes them equivalent to real-world experts in these areas.

So you would put him at Genius-level in Combat? You're saying his proficiency and skills in battle are equal to his mathematical, social and academical skills? That's just crazy.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Even with the growth implied he doesn't have the necessary feats to even classify as an EG, he's missing several necessary criterias "At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology" seen nowhere, "and even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations." seen nowhere. His only feats of "predictions" are assumptions based on very frail probabilities.

For the futuristic technology piece, it specifically says “many are capable” not “all are” or “they are”. There are characters who have an EG rating without creating technology and Koji meets the other criteria.

For predicting the future, this isn’t flimsy. I already posted scans in this thread for 2 of his prediction feats with one of them being a DIRECT statement of his ability to consider all variables in a situation and use them to predict future events.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

To be clear him not speaking from the perspective of his BIQ, and I don’t pretend to know about all the Gifted characters on the wiki. But Koji EASILY DESTROYS the wiki definition of Gifted so if you think there are gifted characters above him, they deserve a CRT but are NOT grounds to downgrade Koji.

Gifted: Characters who demonstrate high reasoning ability, can master difficult concepts with few repetitions, and display high performance capability or notable mastery in intellectual or specific academic fields, which makes them equivalent to real-world experts in these areas.

Yeah the issue is that they arent Genius and do not fulfill the requirements FOR being genius in combat skill but absolutely destroy Ayanokouji in pure raw skill, its to the point that it is debatable if Kouji would even manage to land a single hit on them, stat equalized.

Genius: Individuals with an exceptional capacity for knowledge and intelligence, usually in one area of varying depth. This level of intellect is the level of real-world geniuses, polymaths, and genuinely extremely prominent intellectuals, and, in the absence of better feats, should be the default intelligence category for fictional characters with exceptional or superhuman intelligence.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

So you would put him at Genius-level in Combat? You're saying his proficiency and skills in battle are equal to his mathematical, social and academical skills? That's just crazy.

No, I agree his academic abilities are above his martial ones. However, his record of thousands of fights, his knowledge of a large number of disciplines, his combat adaptability, and his ability to analyze other’s fighting skills all lend themselves to a Genius level of combat intelligence.

He is an EG in intelligence and Genius in combat.

 

[Robo432343]

Koji gets some of his battle intelligence scaling from Shiba
Look at how dry Shiba's combat intelligence is
"possibly Genius in combat. (A skilled teacher in martial arts. Was able to act as an ordinary teacher while teaching Class 1-D. Shiba is always calm and composed, being able to make difficult decisions quickly and without hesitation. Is implied to be a White Room instructor in combat, with White Room instructors being geniuses and masters of their respective subjects.)"

this doesn't qualify for genius combat at all

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Yeah the issue is that they arent Genius and do not fulfill the requirements FOR being genius in combat skill but absolutely destroy Ayanokouji in pure raw skill, its to the point that it is debatable if Kouji would even manage to land a single hit on them, stat equalized.

I see your point. I don’t think a genius in combat is based solely on skills though. It’s also based on combat adaptability, the amount of knowledge on combat they have, and their learning ability.

So idk which characters you are referring to and whether they deserve a Genius rating in combat. Also I’m pretty sure noting a difference is usually for characters with e.g, average intelligence but Genius in Combat. I haven’t seen Genius and up characters have a “separate” combat intelligence rating before.

 

[Hixkaryana]

For predicting the future, this isn’t flimsy. I already posted scans in this thread for 2 of his prediction feats with one of them being a DIRECT statement of his ability to consider all variables in a situation and use them to predict future events.

He didn't know the future, this is more a strategy feat than an intelligence one. He basically took every variable and made solutions for them, he couldn't guess what variable was gonna drop, that's not seeing the future.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I see your point. I don’t think a genius in combat is based solely on skills though. It’s also based on combat adaptability, the amount of knowledge on combat they have, and their learning ability.

I will take Elsa as an example, any attack she sees once will never be able to work on her again because of her adaptability. Even if they are in danmaku afterwards

Gifted (Elsa has freakish skill[17] which lets her avoid attacks, in a cellar with very little room to move around. Has godlike skill which lets her counter Puck's countless ice attacks, she paired with what Puck could do in number with an overwhelming degree of skill[5]. Despite being attacked in her blind spot[5], at the right moment and angle, she easily avoid it. Can easily counter attacks aimed behind her[5], that she can't even see. Even under the effects of Shamak, which affects the senses[9], was still able to not only accurately target her enemies vitals[9], but also avoid an attack which destroyed the entire room she was in[9]. Every technique she sees in battle doesn't work twice[4], even if done in overwhelming numbers. She has overwhelming combat intuition[4], and impossibly fine control over her own body)

She can also dodge an AoE which fills up the entire room and blasts it to pieces..without exiting said room

Kouji has NO chance of hitting her at all, that is just how big of a freakish gap there is in between them

So idk which characters you are referring to and whether they deserve a Genius rating in combat. Also I’m pretty sure noting a difference is usually for characters with e.g, average intelligence but Genius in Combat. I haven’t seen Genius and up characters have a “separate” combat intelligence rating before.

if its a different rating then it should be made clear on the profile, if it isnt for certain characters then thats just a sign of a bad profile

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

He didn't know the future, this is more a strategy feat than an intelligence one. He basically took every variable and made solutions for them, he couldn't guess what variable was gonna drop, that's not seeing the future.

When he says he didn’t see the future, he means literally. I thought that much was obvious, as in he doesn’t have the ability to see into the future. However, right afterward he talks about considering every possibility to determine how the exam would play out in advance.

 

[Hixkaryana]

When he says he didn’t see the future, he means literally. I thought that much was obvious, as in he doesn’t have the ability to see into the future. However, right afterward he talks about considering every possibility to determine how the exam would play out in advance.

Yes and I got that part thank you, but if he took his probabilities to the furthest point he could've guessed what variable event would've happened, not only gathering all possibilities but also accurately predicting the future.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Yes and I got that part thank you, but if he took his probabilities to the furthest point he could've guessed what variable event would've happened, not only gathering all possibilities but also accurately predicting the future.

That is exactly what he did though. He considered the variables surrounding the exam e.g. what people would do and how they would react at different staged, then he used that to accurately predict how the events would play out.

 

[Hixkaryana]

That is exactly what he did though. He considered the variables surrounding the exam e.g. what people would do and how they would react at different staged, then he used that to accurately predict how the events would play out.

Well he clearly said he gathered all possible endings and variations, he never said ONE was going to forcefully happen, he just knew what would happen in a continuity of events. Also to add he's been shown to be inconsistant at times, especially in V.5 where he didn't expect for some participants to forfeit from the Sports Festival, which is one variable he didn't see coming.

 

[Zabazab]

I will take Elsa as an example, any attack she sees once will never be able to work on her again because of her adaptability. Even if they are in danmaku afterwards

She's probably getting Genius (eventually)

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

here.

Aizen is a cosmic fuckton above Ayano in intelligence, kid Aizen would be smarter than all of COTE.

 

[Phoenks]

I'm completely fine with Genius in overall intelligence and knowledge with Gifted battle intelligence. Sounds fair to me.

I will call back the staff who participated

@CrimsonStarFallen @Dalesean027 @Qawsedf234

Idk who else really cares in the staff team though.

 

[MCH2]

The way Ayanokouji operates is that he has plans and adjustments based on most possibilities. he isn’t seeing the future. There are things he fails to anticipate, etc.

The way he approached the EoY Special exam recently was similar, no matter which class won or lost he was planning to intervene accordingly. But he failed to anticipate that Ryuen and Arisu would bet that the loser would leave the school.

If we say Koji sees the future, than Patrick Jane and Baku also see the future. I think the standard for “seeing the future” is more akin to precog, or Dazai knowing what’s happening outside the jail through sheer prediction.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I'm completely fine with Genius in overall intelligence and knowledge with Gifted battle intelligence. Sounds fair to me.

I have only ever seen profiles where a combat intelligence is shown separately when the general intelligence of the character is much lower so I don’t know why it’s needed to separate them here. I’m not necessarily opposed to the idea but I don’t think it’s needed since his general intelligence is high enough.

As for overall intelligence, for the numerous reasons I have posted about before, even ignoring the chess calculation feat, I haven’t seen a valid reason to deny his overall EG rating. He meets all the criteria for EG as per the VSBW definition which was what the OP formed the thread based on.

I agree that getting staff opinions at this point is fine and I am happy to provide any more context if they need any.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I will address the combat intelligence in another thread. Not because I am afraid that I am not having enough arguments, but just that I know that this thread has become a thread for slandering Kiyotaka now and just from the start, it might get downplayed heavily and the number of pages would be crazy.

But as of now, it would be terribly wrong just to point out some random feats from random characters and try to slander him.

And no, regarding him as "Gifted" is not good at all.

Anyways after skimming through the arguments, I would agree with a genius rating. I think a lot of these feats have the "implied growth" issue. It shows you insane levels of knowledge at a preliminary stage but that doesn't mean that said character grows. It's like measuring someone in skill at sports who can play on the level of NBA all stars at the age of 18. We look at a player like that and think "he could be the greatest of all time" because he does great things from young but this doesn't mean said person will his reach his "potential."

I would prefer if there was more evidence of Koji being at full capacity in his current stage rather than "he was a master at multiple martial arts before reaching the age of 10."

He was above the level of a White Room instructor who is stated to be a professional, and in literally every single field.

An NBA player would falter due to being in a bad form or being in a form too good at the time of display. You are talking about consistency in plays and comparing it here, which is false because Kiyotaka never faltered, in like 14 years, you have to be perfect to stay in the White Room.

I agree with Rogger. I'll see if I have time to give reasoning as to why I believe the OP is wrong soon.

Vzearr agreeing with me was never on my bucket list. Thanks though.

Missing any memories is Y1V5. There's a huge difference between him not missing any important memories / events / people / knowledge / etc. And him being able to remember a trivial fact like what the precise number of class points last year was. he forgot that later and it turned from "377 / 318" into "around 350". him not remembering it is his exact words in his monologue.

I am talking about the feat from Y1V5. Huntsman has already explained regarding the points.

Missing context.
During The Match:

• Even position
• Arisu makes a move, Ayanokouji comments that she's more interested in discovering how skilled he is than winning. this can't be discarded.
• Ayanokouji finds the move he needed to play.

After the match:

• Arisu suggests that if they played 10 times, they'd go 5-5
• Ayanokouji agrees, then monologues that it'd go exactly as she said and that he found it interesting they were equal in classical chess

This decisively suggests she's equal to him in chess skill.

My point is that this wouldn't logically make sense if you interpret it that way lol.

Kiyotaka was able to be above the level of a chess machine and made an escape from the move Arisu made, Arisu never did it, never for once, meaning that she would be outclassed almost every time.

This is just ignoring the fact that Kiyotaka, who canonically has accelerated development and can surpass people with more and more adaptability, and they would just go farther from him. Kiyotaka himself knows this, but he gave an "assessment". Let's not really forget that this was written when Kiyotaka had no mentions of his V0 ADs.

Kiyotaka's evaluation is likely based off the fact that he outplayed her only in the endgame and that, they were evenly matched in the most part (though it decided the game). He based off his analysis on the basis of

There are times when he was making the audience confused against even Ichika in Y2V11, but he surpassed her. Kiyotaka bases off his narratively spoken analysis off his achievements most of the times.

This is the problem with Kouji, even when Kouji himself says something in his monologue, it has to be misinterpreted or modified to fit other misinterpretations.

It isn't. It's canonical that he sometimes does plot deception, but not applicable here. It's an "assessment" which he confirmed with Arisu, not really any interpretation of his metacognitive application.

And if your interpretation, suppose was to be taken as true, then it would be disagreeing with the V0 statements.

Close to this, he had statements even in Y1V7 where he says that Ibuki could land him in concussion with her kicks, but it would be entirely debunked with the AP-Durability relation and just logic alone.

The best VSI feat is her visualizing the whole island down to the terrain level and in 3d and then simulating the movements and precise paths that various groups are taking on it. Ayanokouji VSI (and WMI) is upscaled to this.


And this isn’t an interpretation, this is something that was blatantly stated as being something she’s doing.

He was himself able to run simulations on his own and reached Tsukishiro and Shiba by being aware of the entire map. This is better than Arisu based on the results.

He doesn't upscale to Arisu's feat, only the process part of her feat is used to explain Kiyotaka's feat, because, it's plain and basically the only way.

I am not that familiar with Old Maid's possibilities, I remember it but I am not familiar with its breakdown. Takuya's tablet "feat" is another giga wank similar to Arisu recall and the like.

Takuya's tablet "feat" isn't wanked. He legit took Tsubaki's tablet to know about all the information about location of the maximum students and he even uses it later on in his strategy. It's basically confirmed now.

let's be very clear here. "Kouji gaps L in FSIQ" is a complete outlier opinion from everything I've seen, excluding pure COTE scalers. I am certain that CTW L wouldn't just match, he would likely take FSIQ, but how much does his specs differ from Cannon L (DN main series + side stories) I am not precisely certain.

but even if one withdraws L, the larger point remains the same. One may take Baku, PJ, Hannibal, etc. All have a "genius" intelligence rating, and all are within a ballpark of Kouji in FSIQ. Baku has Air Poker CPI, Hannibal has thousands of massive and vivid memory palaces.....

I would want to address this, but this might get derailing.

 

[Hixkaryana]

The way Ayanokouji operates is that he has plans and adjustments based on most possibilities. he isn’t seeing the future. There are things he fails to anticipate, etc.

The way he approached the EoY Special exam recently was similar, no matter which class won or lost he was planning to intervene accordingly. But he failed to anticipate that Ryuen and Arisu would bet that the loser would leave the school.

If we say Koji sees the future, than Patrick Jane and Baku also see the future. I think the standard for “seeing the future” is more akin to precog, or Dazai knowing what’s happening outside the jail through sheer prediction.

Exactly.

 

[DivineAura44]

An NBA player would falter due to being in a bad form or being in a form too good at the time of display. You are talking about consistency in plays and comparing it here, which is false because Kiyotaka never faltered, in like 14 years, you have to be perfect to stay in the White Room.

I agree the analogy isn't necessarily perfect but you are missing the point it seems. My argument isn't about the level of skill displayed. My point is that we shouldn't use "he did x at the age of seven" unless said feat is actually EG. Lower levels of genius at younger ages is not proof of higher levels of genius at higher ages. For example "learning Judo at the age of 3." Impressive no doubt, but it's not EG.

You are arguing about how a White Room Instructor compares to an NBA Player. Different argument entirely.

 

[DivineAura44]

The main point from this is Ayanokouji did the training/learning which puts him in line with an EG rating at a young age. It isn’t a matter of “implied growth” since the growth we do know about is enough to show that.

Some of these feats themselves are not EG, they are genius at best.

 

[MCH2]

Kiyotaka was able to be above the level of a chess machine and made an escape from the move Arisu made

This is because of a misinterpretation you made.

According to Tsukishiro’s evaluation, Ayanokouji made a better move than professionals using a machine. He never outplayed or outperformed a machine.

“Making a better move than an engine” has happened before, by people whom would never beat Stockfish in a million years. Again, this stems in the differential in how we vs engines view positions and moves.

Kiyotaka's evaluation is likely based off the fact that he outplayed her only in the endgame and that, they were evenly matched in the most part (though it decided the game). He based off his analysis on the basis of

Except when she said that 10 games between them would go 5-5, he agreed and then he monologues:

1) It’d go exactly as she said.
2) They were equal in chess ability, which he found interesting.

Takuya's tablet "feat" isn't wanked. He legit took Tsubaki's tablet to know about all the information about location of the maximum students and he even uses it later on in his strategy. It's basically confirmed now.

It’s wanked in interpolating PSI, extremely. A lot of the information that it has him deducing on the spot could have been inducted easily beforehand.

But it’s irrelevant / pointless to this larger discussion.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

She's probably getting Genius (eventually)

doesnt help your case considering that is going to be with feats from new content
The rating YOU agreed with for all of the current feats on the profile is gifted.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

The way he approached the EoY Special exam recently was similar, no matter which class won or lost he was planning to intervene accordingly. But he failed to anticipate that Ryuen and Arisu would bet that the loser would leave the school.

Except that he did anticipate the bet. This has been hinted at all the way since Y2V6 and as well as Ayanokouji’s knowledge of it. This is newer analysis but I’ll share some of it with the explanation of why Ayanokouji did know about the bet:

In y2v6, Arisu and Koji had their conversation.
Here are some statements from the volume, in contrast to statements made in y2v11.

Arisu: “So you’re trying to create the strongest class with your own two hands, Ayanokouji -kun, is that right?”

Koji confirmed this, and Arisu replied:
I can’t say that I haven’t considered that before, but… it does leave me with some questions.”

We will skip a bit, to the following statement by Koiji:
“I’m living my life at this school according to my own plans. The fact that you came to my room today, and that you showed interest in my plan, along with the possibility that you’d arrive at the answer, and that there would be a route to arrive at that conclusion - that was all part of that plan too.”

Basically, Koji prompted Arisu to think about and rationalize his plans in this way. What way exactly? It was revealed to us in y2v11:
“The competition between the four classes that Ayanokoji idealized had become impossible when the bet with Ryuen was decided. Even if Ayanokoji transferred and steered towards balancing the forces, considering Ichinose’s declining class, there wouldn’t be enough players”

Quite the jump to make. From thinking Koji is looking to build the strongest class, to a 4 way battle.

In other words. Koji knew Arisu will eventually figure out his plan and try to sabotage it. He provided her a way to sabotage his plans while simultaneously finding a solution by creating a way to blackmail her later (special lesson)

So, how does this all fit in so far?

We know the Arisu Ryuen bet was changed for a few reasons:
It doesn’t fit Katsuragi’s personality, there’s no way he’d agree to such a deal anyway, and it was stated he is unaware. (And honestly seems kind of odd. Ryuen has potential to get 3rd place, and he randomly agrees to an offer to bet his life in the school? It’s risky, too risky, even for Ryuen).

Arisu didn’t fully understand Koji’s plan during the Island exam. It was shown to us in y2v6 - she confirmed that she believed Koji is trying to build a strong class, not balance the forces between the classes. How does taking down Ryuen help sabotaging that?

So, why did they wait so long?

After the events of y2v6, Arisu figured out Koji’s plans and proposed Ryuen to change the contents of their bet. But at first, Ryuen wasn’t a fan of the idea. Like I stated earlier, I believe this bet is too risky even for Ryuen. So, why did he change his mind? The answer is Hashimoto.
In y2v11, Hashimoto stated the following:
“Of course, I didn’t take such an invitation seriously at first. However, right after that, I heard from Ryuen that if I didn’t move classes, I’d definitely regret it at the end of the school year.”

Ryuen waited for Hashimoto to make a decision. And Hashimoto indeed chose in y2v10, which prompted Ryuen to accept the new bet after the events of the exchange camp.

I’d like to make one more point, before I end this analysis.

In y2v9.5, Hashimoto approached Koji with an offer to move up to class A.

Koji: “If she’s going to pull me (he’s talking about Arisu here) to class A, it’s more than a great proposal.”

Hashimoto: “That’s what I mean. If class A is inviting you, would you accept? Even if it’s just hypothetical, let’s hear it.

Koji: “I’d positively consider it if I was offered an invitation to class A.”

We can see here that Koji pushed Hashimoto to beef with Arisu over his transfer. Koji had full analysis on the whole situation. He knew how Ryuen would feel about the deal, and that he’d approach Hashimoto since they both had analysis on Hashimoto’s character. And then, Koji said what he needed to say to push Hashimoto in that direction. He orchestrated the whole thing, and ensured it all went according to plan.

So at first, Arisu proposed a different bet to Ryuen, which was accepted by both him and Katsuragi. Koji knew Arisu will eventually come at him, and try to sabotage his plans. After the Unanimous exam, he realized Arisu and Ryuen plan to battle it out, and made some sort of a bet. He then planned a conversation with Arisu, where he induced her to reason his plans in this direction. He made her connect the dots during their conversation, as he himself stated later.

This got Arisu to suggest a bet change to Ryuen. He was not a fan of the idea at first, but After Hashimoto chose his side, Ryuen felt comfortable enough to accept the bet. Due to the change in bet, Katsuragi isn’t aware, and the reason it took them so long to finalize the details is because Arisu changed the bet after y2v6.

Koji orchestrated the whole thing, which means he already had a way to nullify the bet since y2v6 - infact, he created it right then and there. Both Arisu and Ryuen are key components in his plan, he won’t let them get expelled.

Then as of Y2V12 this was further confirmed when Ayanokouji mentioned how he had prepared different strategies for a variety of outcomes regarding how the EoY special exam could play out.

He foresaw the fact that the class leaders could engage in a competition, and therefore he prepared his Sakayanagi contingency against a competition which he envisioned after the whole thing in Y1V10 when Arisu lost by doing his conversation there which influenced her mentality in the future, knowing from the start she'd win the final exam

He said he didn't predict them to actually go through with it to the point of expulsion NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, which means his passive strategy which would have succeeded without their bet is already destroyed, therefore he has to use his contingency

This also shows that Kiyotaka has some sort of abduction regarding how final exams work every year, seeing the one from Y1 + what Nagumo told him. This is supported by him saying: "no matter which class wins or loses, I have strategies prepared in advance"

Sorry for the long response on this but I wanted to show the connected events back to Y2V6 which show how the bet DID NOT catch Koji off guard and to the contrary was something he anticipated and prepared for long in advance.

 

[MCH2]

Except that he did anticipate the bet. This has been hinted at all the way since Y2V6 and as well as Ayanokouji’s knowledge of it. This is newer analysis but I’ll share some of it with the explanation of why Ayanokouji did know about the bet:

Year 2 Volume 12:

The end-of-year special exam was finally set for next week.
The details of the rules were still unknown, but the fluctuations of class points would clearly be significant.
The winners would laugh, and the losers would cry.
Honestly, as it was an exam, either outcome was within expectations.
However, there was one point I did not originally anticipate. It involved Sakayanagi and Ryūen; whichever of them lost, regardless of the exam content, would drop out of school.

Ayanokouji in Year 2 Volume 6 didn't steer Arisu into uncovering his plan. He told her that he predicted and anticipated that she'd uncover his plan. he failed to predict just how far she's willing to go to screw over his plan, the bet was explicitly outside of his expectations.

 

[AyeZ2]

Probably should wrap this thread up soon

 

[Worthless]

Gifted (Elsa has freakish skill[17] which lets her avoid attacks, in a cellar with very little room to move around. Has godlike skill which lets her counter Puck's countless ice attacks, she paired with what Puck could do in number with an overwhelming degree of skill[5]. Despite being attacked in her blind spot[5], at the right moment and angle, she easily avoid it. Can easily counter attacks aimed behind her[5], that she can't even see. Even under the effects of Shamak, which affects the senses[9], was still able to not only accurately target her enemies vitals[9], but also avoid an attack which destroyed the entire room she was in[9]. Every technique she sees in battle doesn't work twice[4], even if done in overwhelming numbers. She has overwhelming combat intuition[4], and impossibly fine control over her own body)

Some of these are only possible because of her superhuman movements and strength though. Anyway OP should make a separate thread for Combat IQ. This doesn't looks like Intelligent EG no more

 

[Phoenks]

I don't need a separate thread I already tackled the entire intelligence section in the OP. That's pointless.

Anyway, from the looks of it every single "EG feat" has been thoroughly debunked multiple times over now. It's mostly just what I perceive to be the Koji fanboys hanging onto those beliefs.

Meanwhile pretty much everyone else seems to be in unanimous agreement that he isn't extraordinary genius.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I don't need a separate thread I already tackled the entire intelligence section in the OP. That's pointless.

Anyway, from the looks of it every single "EG feat" has been thoroughly debunked multiple times over now. It's mostly just what I perceive to be the Koji fanboys hanging onto those beliefs.

Meanwhile pretty much everyone else seems to be in unanimous agreement that he isn't extraordinary genius.

Man, I’m sorry but this is pure cope on your part.

There are multiple outstanding posts in this thread that you both haven’t responded to and haven’t been debunked in ANY fashion. There have been numerous examples of how Ayanokouji meets the standards of the VSBW definition of EG of which nobody here have been able to debunk.

The main “debunk” points that have been made are how his chess feat is invalid (which I previously pointed out doesn’t even matter) or that his perfect memory invalidates his intelligence (which Reggor disproved with scans) so claiming everything is debunked is just incorrect.

Claiming everyone who isn’t agreeing to downgrade are just “Koji fanboys” and that “everyone else” is in unanimous agreement is a ridiculous claim. Instead of being able to provide actual debunks you resorted to just calling the people defending Koji’s EG rating with his proper feats, LN scans, and explanation of his feats “fanboys”.

I realize that these threads can become heated, but when you fail to make your point you should accept that the other side has some merit instead of just insulting anyone who disagrees with you.

In fact the only point of the EG rating that has been accepted as not applying to Koji is “creating futuristic technology” and that is specifically mentioned in the VSBW definition to apply to MANY EGs, but not ALL. So Koji not doing so is fine and in line with many other EGs.

This thread has NOT proven by any means that Koji isn’t an EG.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Some of these are only possible because of her superhuman movements and strength though. Anyway OP should make a separate thread for Combat IQ. This doesn't looks like Intelligent EG no more

superhuman movements come under skill and nothing on her intelligence section is a strength based feat

 

[RoggerReggor]

I agree the analogy isn't necessarily perfect but you are missing the point it seems. My argument isn't about the level of skill displayed. My point is that we shouldn't use "he did x at the age of seven" unless said feat is actually EG. Lower levels of genius at younger ages is not proof of higher levels of genius at higher ages. For example "learning Judo at the age of 3." Impressive no doubt, but it's not EG.

You are arguing about how a White Room Instructor compares to an NBA Player. Different argument entirely.

You can use "He did X at this age." for an argument for E.G. if it necessarily is very hard, or almost impossible to be done at a very young age with an undeveloped brain of a child. For example, if an 18-year-old basketball player is outplaying some NBA players, then it might not be the best comparison because at 18, you are already considered an adult, and you basically have the mature mind of an adult coupled with all the information which you can possess at that time. This person may be above average-gifted, but let's consider a guy who is outplaying NBA players at the age of 9, now, that would be a genius. At age 9, your body itself isn't well developed, your mind will have mental maturity of a 3rd grader, and even if you were having a raw IQ of 200, you would still be able to think at a mental age of 18 only.

This is very similar to William James Sidis's feats (he could do university level stuff at 11 and could read a newspaper from the age of a year or so), and could converse in about 25 languages, and that's why, he's regarded as the smartest person in history even though his official IQ was never tested.

Now, this would get badly outclassed by Kiyotaka. This guy was able to store information of a few adults talking at the time when he didn't understand language, then after having stored it, when he learnt language finally, he finally interpreted it. He was also able to have an understanding of emotions from being a newborn and could consciously think as well (in fact, he was able to think about human behaviors and was already mentally maturing). By the age of 9, he surpassed each of the instructors who taught him everything in fighting. By the age of 12, every White Room subject who stayed in the White Room after age 9 was determined to surpass every instructor in everything, Kiyotaka not only did it much faster than presumed, but through this feat, he would outclass Sidis so hard that it wouldn't even be a debate. Sidis mainly studied mathematics, linguistics, history of his country and the world, and law. Kiyotaka outclasses this because he was already knowing college level mathematics in most branches, same for his scientific knowledge, learnt liberal arts (which is being stupidly proficient in linguistics and vocational training, which is IRL skills and practical knowledge, and you even learn to maximize your creativity in it) and he knows most of the sports, and the ones he doesn't know, he learns them instantly by just observing them once. He also is said to be able to take over the entire Japan and lead it to being the best, such is his knowledge and power of intellect.

No one in the real world has comparable talent to Kiyotaka. Just saying "he's almost a polymath" isn't enough, he is A POLYMATH.

Proof:

Every White Room instructor is a professional in their field.

By the age of 12, any White Room subject who was in Generation 4 and survived beyond age 9 was metaphorically referred to as a "monster", and basically outperformed all of the researchers and leaders, who would be instructors.

These instructors are said to have superficial knowledge in their respective fields, meaning that if we were to have them characterized in terms of real-world standards, they would go beyond master's degrees or PhDs. Kiyotaka was taught everything by them and surpassed them, meaning that the knowledge Kiyotaka possesses is above the collective knowledge of every instructor (who would be professionals in their own fields), considering the amount of knowledge and the fields in which he has them, he would already be a polymath (or basically beyond it).

Kiyotaka heavily outclasses the likes of polymaths like Leonardo da Vinci as well, especially because the amount of knowledge da Vinci learnt cannot be compared to Kiyotaka's. da Vinci was living in 1400s while the maximum research done in science and technology was from 1600s to today. Fields like magnetostatics and electrostatics were revolutionized mainly in 1800s to 1900s and Kiyotaka had to learn about 600 more years of history, sciences and mathematical discoveries, which would basically be much more and almost 10 times more than what da Vinci learnt. In fact, even current polymaths like Nathan Myhrvold, Stephen Hawking, Elon Musk, Art Garfunkel, would fall way beyond in comparison to Kiyotaka.

Kiyotaka is beyond just a polymath, and you can never argue against it. Regarding him as polymath may as well just be an understatement.

Sure, you may say that this is due to Perfect Memory, but Perfect Memory isn't just Photographic Memory (lol), it is having a control over your brain so high, that you can manipulate your memories and store them any way you want, like you can erase memories you want, and retain your memories of any time at any time and basically not forget anything. Photographic Memory, however, is only the ability to remember things very fast (such as in a glance or just having seen it once), which doesn't guarantee retention of memories at any time, and never guarantees memory manipulation.

Also, the argument that his Learning Ability is purely based on his Perfect Memory (which is like the main point of this thread) has been VERBATIM debunked by Kiyotaka himself.

This is because of a misinterpretation you made.

According to Tsukishiro’s evaluation, Ayanokouji made a better move than professionals using a machine. He never outplayed or outperformed a machine.

“Making a better move than an engine” has happened before, by people whom would never beat Stockfish in a million years. Again, this stems in the differential in how we vs engines view positions and moves.

Tbh this was discussed in the first few pages itself but let me repeat myself.

There are specifically people in this world who have outplayed Stockfish once or twice, but that's in the evaluation of positions differently, for example, sometimes you may play a better move than Stockfish, purely because that position itself is a special position where Stockfish takes more time to evaluate moves and consider the future moves, but the chances of this happening in endgame is almost none, due to shear amount of pieces left in the endgame.

Plus, Tsukishiro said it after an entire evaluation that he outplayed a chess engine. We cannot even argue this that the statement should be considered along with the factors of that position being a "special position" like I mentioned, because there's no narrative or logical implication of that whatsoever.

Another thing we know is that Kiyotaka has a learning ability of basically only developing and developing, so if he countered a chess engine for once, he would do it collectively afterwards, which we may not know due to just the next move after the move being argued on, if messed up, would be a forced checkmate by Arisu and she would win. Debate with Huntsman about this if you want. You are making no new point now; this was addressed months ago and the debate just spiked up after the anime was released.

Except when she said that 10 games between them would go 5-5, he agreed and then he monologues:

1) It’d go exactly as she said.
2) They were equal in chess ability, which he found interesting.

I already mentioned about how it was based on "achievements" and not purely metacognition. Want some examples of Kiyotaka monologuing and then proving his own analysis based on achievements "wrong"?

In volume 0, when a group of adults walk in to fight Kiyotaka, Kiyotaka realizes that all of them were much better than his past opponents and could fight in an uphill battle and possessed the physical ability higher than him. He makes a general statement about whether a fight was to happen, they would slam a 100 of 100 times.

But we know what happens next,

He fodderizes all of them adults in a 1v6 fight and without even being slightly tired and having no adrenaline rush whatsoever or any feelings of pity.

So yes, it would MEAN A LOT if you were to disregard basically most of Kiyotaka's monologued statements of him losing. He overhypes his opponents and then destroys them fully.

And yes, would win a 100 of 100 fights is a statement pretty close to the level of "we would go 5-5".

Kiyotaka bases his statements off achievements and primary observations. In case of the achievement against Sakayanagi, it was still a high diff for Kiyotaka because the match was levelled most of the time and he only outplayed her in the end.

We cannot also disregard the fact that Sakayanagi herself was unsure of her own evaluation and had to ask Kiyotaka about it.

It’s wanked in interpolating PSI, extremely. A lot of the information that it has him deducing on the spot could have been inducted easily beforehand.

Ayo what?

There's literally nothing which could have been known before due to inductive reasoning. What would he induct? The locations of other students based on just intuition?

He isn't Dazai who would come up with reasonings straight out of nothingness lmao.

But it’s irrelevant / pointless to this larger discussion.

It is very relevant lmao.

If Takuya were to have this feat, then coupled with his feats in polymathy, he would be an "At least Genius", which he is iirc based on his achievements in the recorded feats, and Kiyotaka heavily outclassing him narratively would just provide support to Kiyotaka's E.G. rating.

 

[RoggerReggor]

The main “debunk” points that have been made are how his chess feat is invalid (which I previously pointed out doesn’t even matter) or that his perfect memory invalidates his intelligence (which Reggor disproved with scans) so claiming everything is debunked is just incorrect.

True. I will get this straight with higher size font so people can see it and not ignore it.

The Perfect Memory argument is VERBATIM debunked by Kiyotaka himself and the entire argument about it in the OP or in the thread against it is based on a theory given by another character who himself said that if Kiyotaka was doing it based on memory, then he would face problems with it (which he canonically never did).

Further, Kiyotaka himself criticizes those who do it based on memory, and mentions that more than the memorization and grasping power, it was the application of basics to yourself which mattered more, meaning that his achievements are more favored by it than his memorization.

Being based on theory, this thread will just be pushing on an assumption (which is falsified by a character statement itself) and trying to debunk it based on it.

Secondly, Perfect Memory can be proven to be intelligence (based on Gardener's concepts which is an intelligence concept), Photographic Memory isn't.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

True. I will get this straight with higher size font so people can see it and not ignore it.

The Perfect Memory argument is VERBATIM debunked by Kiyotaka himself and the entire argument about it in the OP or in the thread against it is based on a theory given by another character who himself said that if Kiyotaka was doing it based on memory, then he would face problems with it (which he canonically never did).

Further, Kiyotaka himself criticizes those who do it based on memory, and mentions that more than the memorization and grasping power, it was the application of basics to yourself which mattered more, meaning that his achievements are more favored by it than his memorization.

Being based on theory, this thread will just be pushing on an assumption (which is falsified by a character statement itself) and trying to debunk it based on it.

Secondly, Perfect Memory can be proven to be intelligence (based on Gardener's concepts which is an intelligence concept), Photographic Memory isn't.

this made the text so big i unintentionally glossed over it

 

[RoggerReggor]

this made the text so big i unintentionally glossed over it

At least you noticed it...

 

[HelloThere1089]

Noticed what?