Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

[HelloThere1089]

If any criticizer read the entire thread, or even his profile, and that too, WELL-READ, then you would realize that he verbatim has a statement where his knowledge is characterized to be above what a human can obtain in their entire life, just at the age of 16, so no, this wouldn't even be an argument.

I am starting to think none of the COTE readers have reading comprehension. The statement is "My knowledge far exceeds the amount learned in a lifetime". And this statement confirms to you that he has surpassed the upper limit of irl humans?

And no, the futuristic technology point is not for every E.G., the wiki describes it as "many make futuristic inventions", not "all should make futuristic inventions".

Again, read my comment better. I gave that as an example not as a requirement. The example was of a way to demonstrate that the upper limit has been surpassed. It doesn't need to be an invention outright.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I am starting to think none of the COTE readers have reading comprehension. The statement is "My knowledge far exceeds the amount learned in a lifetime". And this statement confirms to you that he has surpassed the upper limit of irl humans?

It is? He has the amount of knowledge which an IRL human cannot even fathom of storing in their entire life.

If you are talking about the part of being able to make something which humans don't even know, then that comes under the "futuristic invention" or knowledge regarding the "future invention" part.

Again, read my comment better. I gave that as an example not as a requirement. The example was of a way to demonstrate that the upper limit has been surpassed. It doesn't need to be an invention outright.

If the notion of your argument is that it must be something futuristic, then no, that's wouldn't or even surpass the upper limit of the real world, as it would mean that knowing anything which the real world doesn't know would meet this criterion.

VSBW itself defines this knowledge as having knowledge in multiple fields of science and technology, without them being unknown with the real world. That would mean that if you have a character who basically makes something or has a knowledge of something which doesn't exist in the real world, then that would make them have an E.G. criteria fulfilled.

I am talking the quantity of knowledge, which is the scientific measure of knowledge.

 

[Phoenks]

I would like the supporters to do something that will be useful regardless of the decision made by this thread.

Write an replacement for intelligence section for Ayanokouji using feats and scans that best represent his intelligence.

Regardless of whether or not this thread downgrades his rating, this will be a positive addition. We can discuss it while we wait for staff to appear, rather than continuing in circles like this.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Very true.

Also, the 100% prediction stuff caught me off guard. That would mean that any E.G. who got outsmarted even for once, even slightly would never meet the "prediction" criteria if you actually needed 100% prediction.

What? No, that just mean whoever outsmart the EG person, is just as smart to deceive them, that's not a anti-feat.

The examples you give also makes zero sense, like wtf you talking about.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

What? No, that just mean whoever outsmart the EG person, is just as smart to deceive them, that's not a anti-feat.

The examples you give also makes zero sense, like wtf you talking about.

This is circular logic though.

If someone outsmarts/deceives a “100% accurate prediction” then the prediction wasn’t 100% accurate.

So doing so isn’t a feat of beating a 100% accurate prediction since it wasn’t 100% accurate.

 

[RoggerReggor]

What? No, that just mean whoever outsmart the EG person, is just as smart to deceive them, that's not a anti-feat.

The examples you give also makes zero sense, like wtf you talking about.

I predicted this. And that is why I used the example of Stephanie and Sora as well.

Well, Stephanie is quite literally a very low tier in the NGNL intelligence tiers. () In fact, she's useD as a GAG character for the most of the series who's gullible.

And no, my examples make 100% sense, if we are talking about 100% prediction, then if you get outsmarted for once, then you DON'T have 100% predictions, that's as simple as that, no matter what you say.

If you are trying to reason that with the examples I mentioned, then why not use the logic with COTE as well? Why not think of Arisu and Ryuuen (who are actually high tiers in the verse) actually having a good enough resistance to Kiyotaka's strategy to not get curbstomped?

 

[MCH2]

I fully agree with the notion that the intelligence section should be rewritten regardless of the verdict here.

Proposal,
1) Verdict should be made here. we already have presented not only arguments for both sides but I’ve also fully detailed Kiyotaka’s abilities as well. Arguing more is pointless. The information in this thread is more than enough for a judgement. I’d also like to remind everyone that this isn’t just about Ayanokouji’s abilities, but also about the definition of EG used in this wiki and how it’s currently being applied.

2) Another thread, specifically to rewrite his intelligence section. I am willing to do that, using the current section as a baseline and modifying it to better fit a literal interpretation of the text. In addition to adding to it things it’s missing.

 

[Fezzih_007]

If someone outsmarts/deceives a “100% accurate prediction” then the prediction wasn’t 100% accurate.

So doing so isn’t a feat of beating a 100% accurate prediction since it wasn’t 100% accurate.

Ok actually I gonna avoid to argue, to not clog this thread with more useless discussion, but this logic really don't hold.

I predicted this

I wish I could dropkick you.

 

[Vapidhoe]

Nothing in the intelligence section on Ayanokouji's page fits the bill for Extraordinary Genius. He's not even close.

Here is the definition of EG, refer back to this definition as you read this post:



I am an intelligence connoisseur and I will not stand for this!

Ayanokouji does not exceed the real world's upper limits in anything but his perfect memory, which is an ability, rather than intelligence. He is, at maximum, gifted, in a few areas. He can't create futuristic technology nor does he outperform supercomputers or anything like that. I will go through every part of his intelligence section.



This means nothing by itself so can be discarded. "Genius" as a word can mean a lot of things and is often used incredibly loosely. The wiki's definition of "genius" is also much higher than what it is typically used for, encompassing individuals who are practically at the peak of human intellect in specific fields.



This is impressive for a child but just being able to do complex math equations is not even close to peak human level's of knowledge or intelligence. Anyone gifted in modern mathematics would be capable of this much. Especially someone who was literally trained from birth to be capable of such things.



This isn't... impressive? At all? Like, this might be the least impressive thing here because that just means he is on the same level as an average 20-30 year old mentally.



This is due to his ability, which is perfect memory. This has nothing to do with intellect. It's a supernatural capability.



Being gifted in chess is a hyper-specific area of human endeavor and being smart in chess does not equivalate to intelligence in other areas. This is perhaps best represented by real-world Grandmaster Hikaru Nakamura having an average IQ (102) despite being the #2 ranked player in the world.



What kinds of measurements do they even have access to and why are they relevant? Also, "trouble" doesn't really mean much. In the real world organizations have trouble measuring IQs over 160, but that doesn't really... mean anything in particular for that person's overall intelligence.



All of this is definitely impressive for a child but none of it is really anything more than gifted intellect, especially considering he is literally gifted with perfect memory. He's just exceptionally prodigious.



Being knowledgeable in various fields isn't anything special. This is really vague as well. Again, not a supporting feat for Extraordinary Genius.



Another vague hype-statement that doesn't really mean anything in of itself.



An explanation of Photographic Memory, which is an ability, not an aspect of his intellect.



Impressive for a child, no doubt, but again, this is simply prodigious levels of intelligence, and is heavily, heavily aided by him having perfect memory. It's another gifted feat on its own.



Further support for gifted combat intelligence. He is beating other gifted fighters and has a lot of knowledge in fighting, but none of this really transfers over to general intelligence ratings nor is any of this exceptionally impressive in the realm of martial arts. The average shounen protagonist has 10000x better feats than this lmao.

Overall, I went through the entire intelligence section and ended up with practically nothing that supports him having intelligence that surpasses the real-world upper limits of humanity, nor him being comparable to supercomputers in processing, or even having exceptional knowledge in multiple fields of science. Not to mention, the stuff he does have is HEAVILY, HEAVILY aided by him having a supernatural ability, that being PERFECT memory. That in of itself takes away from a lot of these feats even more.

Honestly, I am inclined to say Ayanokouji is just high into Gifted, maybe Genius at the absolute most. But Extraordinary Genius intellect is in another dimension from him entirely.

Even looking to the examples of EG listed on the Genius page, you can immediately tell Koji has NO PLACE next to these people. Seriously, putting t a guy who has "learned various fields" and "mastered languages at 4" in the same category as Aizen, Batman, Bulma, and Iron Man? LOL. I mean, that's just blatantly ridiculous, isn't it? Doesn't take a genius to see the HUGE difference between Koji and the others in that Extraordinary Genius category.

So, yeah, my suggestion is that he be downgraded to Genius.


List of People that Agree (26): @CloverDragon03, @Deidalius, @Dalesean027, @DaReaperMan, @Grabbing_dragon, @AyeZ2, @HelloThere1089, @Rayfire, @Spicy78, @MasqueTLDF, @Dinozxd, @Nierre, @DaReaperMan, @EldemadeDityjon, @Arceus0x, @Qawsedf234, @ReaperAndBlues, @SatellaTheWoE, @Robo432343, @ThePrimalHunter, @Tomfer, @Hixkaryana, @MCH2, @DivineAura44, @LLA1400, @Vietthai96

List of People that Disagree (5): @TheHuntsman1001, @Worthless, @RoggerReggor, @TheOrangeGuy09, @XxZetsuxX

I agree with everything you said

and also there's never an instances of him beating a supercomputer, these glazers be making up feats

 

[HelloThere1089]

It is? He has the amount of knowledge which an IRL human cannot even fathom of storing in their entire life.

Humor me. If I say my knowledge in powerscaling exceeds that a person acquires in their lifetime. Does that guarantee that I have more knowledge in powerscaling than anyone in the world? Assume I'm telling the truth.

If you are talking about the part of being able to make something which humans don't even know, then that comes under the "futuristic invention" or knowledge regarding the "future invention" part.

If the notion of your argument is that it must be something futuristic, then no, that's wouldn't or even surpass the upper limit of the real world, as it would mean that knowing anything which the real world doesn't know would meet this criterion.

No it's not the notion.

 

[MCH2]

Humor me. If I say my knowledge in powerscaling exceeds that a person acquires in their lifetime. Does that guarantee that I have more knowledge in powerscaling than anyone in the world? Assume I'm telling the truth.

The statement you are objecting to is correct and factual in the series. We have statements not just from him, but from third parties in addition to supporting evidence (solving grad level math problems, with him stating he did that as a small kid).

Ayanokouji’s knowledge spans dozens of domains and surpasses the people who taught him. Geniuses, researchers and professors.

The key nuance here is that the major thing about his knowledge is more about the width of it, than the depth. It’s more that he is professor level in a dozen or more fields, than that he possesses unknown or undiscovered knowledge.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Humor me. If I say my knowledge in powerscaling exceeds that a person acquires in their lifetime. Does that guarantee that I have more knowledge in powerscaling than anyone in the world? Assume I'm telling the truth.

Context-specific. Here, we know that Kiyotaka was learning them in science and technology, liberal arts, history and politics, meaning that his knowledge is in these sectors, and fulfills the VSBW criteria, and basically, it wouldn't take a genius to come to the same conclusion as that statement with just the raw data.
He has the knowledge of every instructor in these fields (which I addressed are already at professional level; PhD/master's degree at the least). These instructors took an entire time of their life till that point to learn that, and he outclassed them, and the combined knowledge of all of them would basically be more than what a human can learn in a lifetime.
But it's obvious that Kiyotaka would not have the knowledge required to do literally anything, that's omniscience. He probably doesn't know fictional characters in the first place. He canonically lost an anime quiz to some guys.

No it's not the notion.

It's fine then.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Context-specific. Here, we know that Kiyotaka was learning them in science and technology, liberal arts, history and politics, meaning that his knowledge is in these sectors, and fulfills the VSBW criteria, and basically, it wouldn't take a genius to come to the same conclusion as that statement with just the raw data.
He has the knowledge of every instructor in these fields (which I addressed are already at professional level; PhD/master's degree at the least). These instructors took an entire time of their life till that point to learn that, and he outclassed them, and the combined knowledge of all of them would basically be more than what a human can learn in a lifetime.
But it's obvious that Kiyotaka would not have the knowledge required to do literally anything, that's omniscience. He probably doesn't know fictional characters in the first place. He canonically lost an anime quiz to some guys.

Read my comment again. I am not talking about knowing everything. I am talking about knowing more than anyone in this world. Depth or width, doesn't matter.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Read my comment again. I am not talking about knowing everything. I am talking about knowing more than anyone in this world. Depth or width, doesn't matter.

He knows more than anyone in this real-world quantity-wise. Yes. If that's what you want to know.

 

[HelloThere1089]

He knows more than anyone in this real-world quantity-wise. Yes. If that's what you want to know.

That's what you got from my statement? Bruh. Anyways no point in continuing this tbh.

 

[RoggerReggor]

That's what you got from my statement? Bruh. Anyways no point in continuing this tbh.

I did regard it as a possibility about what you may mean. If your entire argument is about knowing more than anyone in this is collectively knowing more than every human in the world (which would ultimately result to knowing everything in this world), then I am sorry dude, but you are talking about the real-world entire civilization limit, we are talking about human limit/limit of an individual in the amount of knowledge they have, and in multiple fields of sciences, there's literally no need for him to have the bogus or unneeded knowledge as well (though this comment doesn't really mean to suggest that none of the information is needed).

The VSBW standards itself talk about having knowledge in "multiple fields of science" and not "all fields of science", which would practically mean "knowing more than anyone in this world. So, imho this interpretation is not the best.

Forget about E.G. which is not entirely knowledge and capabilities based, I can give you 10 supergenius characters who have these gaps in their knowledge.

And no, there's absolutely a point in continuing this, we cannot even argue if we don't get the standards straight.

 

[HelloThere1089]

I did regard it as a possibility about what you may mean. If your entire argument is about knowing more than anyone in this is collectively knowing more than every human in the world (which would ultimately result to knowing everything in this world), then I am sorry dude, but you are talking about the real-world entire civilization limit, we are talking about human limit/limit of an individual in the amount of knowledge they have, and in multiple fields of sciences, there's literally no need for him to have the bogus or unneeded knowledge as well (though this comment doesn't really mean to suggest that none of the information is needed).

The VSBW standards itself talk about having knowledge in "multiple fields of science" and not "all fields of science", which would practically mean "knowing more than anyone in this world. So, imho this interpretation is not the best.

Forget about E.G. which is not entirely knowledge and capabilities based, I can give you 10 supergenius characters who have these gaps in their knowledge.

And no, there's absolutely a point in continuing this, we cannot even argue if we don't get the standards straight.

Bruh. I never said everyone combined. I said anyone. Single person.

Humor me. If I say my knowledge in powerscaling exceeds that a person acquires in their lifetime. Does that guarantee that I have more knowledge in powerscaling than anyone in the world? Assume I'm telling the truth.

Read my comment again. I am not talking about knowing everything. I am talking about knowing more than anyone in this world. Depth or width, doesn't matter.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Bruh. I never said everyone combined.

Then can you please enlighten me by providing an example?

For example, I remember the powerscaling example you mentioned. So, if I want a character get upgraded, then even if they possess knowledge in multiple fields of science and the amount of knowledge they have surpasses the quantity-wise knowledge of every individual in science and technology in the real world individually, then would that not classify for E.G. knowledge criterion if they wouldn't know powerscaling?

 

[HelloThere1089]

Then can you please enlighten me by providing an example?

For example, I remember the powerscaling example you mentioned. So, if I want a character get upgraded, then even if they possess knowledge in multiple fields of science and the amount of knowledge they have surpasses the quantity-wise knowledge of every individual in science and technology in the real world individually, then would that not classify for E.G. knowledge criterion if they wouldn't know powerscaling?

It could. The key point to prove would be the knowledge surpasses the upper limit quantity wise. Which in your example is likely to be the case unless your example doesn't include dead people.

 

[RoggerReggor]

It could. The key point to prove would be the knowledge surpasses the upper limit quantity wise. Which in your example is likely to be the case unless your example doesn't include dead people.

Ah, so Kiyotaka's knowledge surpasses what can be learnt in an entire lifetime at the age of 16, meaning that he surpasses the upper limit of a human very easily because the same statement can be used to infer that his knowledge surpasses what can be gained in a lifetime by a normal human, meaning that a normal human is limited by something so that they cannot have that amount of knowledge in a lifetime, and that too, in multiple fields of science. This means that his knowledge surpasses the upper limit quantity wise.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Ah, so Kiyotaka's knowledge surpasses what can be learnt in an entire lifetime at the age of 16, meaning that he surpasses the upper limit of a human very easily because the same statement can be used to infer that his knowledge surpasses what can be gained in a lifetime by a normal human,

No. I am asking you to prove he surpasses what can be gained in a lifetime by the most knowledgeable person irl, not a normal person irl. The absolute upper limit. It is pretty clear from your earlier evidence that Koji surpasses what the average person can gather in their lifetime. While you're at it, provide me with source too if you don't mind. I'd rather not go back every page since you said you have already provided all the evidence there is in this thread. I have been a bit busy these few days.

 

[RoggerReggor]

No. I am asking you to prove he surpasses what can be gained in a lifetime by the most knowledgeable person irl, not a normal person irl. The absolute upper limit. It is pretty clear from your earlier evidence that Koji surpasses what the average person can gather in their lifetime. While you're at it, provide me with source too if you don't mind. I'd rather not go back every page since you said you have already provided all the evidence there is in this thread. I have been a bit busy these few days.

It's pretty clear. He didn't say "average person", he said "far exceeds the amount learnt in a lifetime".

If you want feats, consider his instructors who would have professional knowledge in their fields. Kiyotaka collectively has a higher knowledge than all of them, combined. There's no one in this world who has the collectively higher knowledge and would remember each and every fact that they learnt in their lives. Even if you consider polymaths, they don't really have that many fields in their arsenal to be considered a competition in the first place.

This is just some of the courses he learnt, but he learnt sciences, mathematics, liberal arts and linguistics by professionals.

If you want me to get him above any polymath, then you can request it.

For the source, read this:

Every White Room instructor is a professional in their field.

By the age of 12, any White Room subject who was in Generation 4 and survived beyond age 9 was metaphorically referred to as a "monster", and basically outperformed all of the researchers and leaders, who would be instructors.

These instructors are said to have superficial knowledge in their respective fields, meaning that if we were to have them characterized in terms of real-world standards, they would go beyond master's degrees or PhDs. Kiyotaka was taught everything by them and surpassed them, meaning that the knowledge Kiyotaka possesses is above the collective knowledge of every instructor (who would be professionals in their own fields), considering the amount of knowledge and the fields in which he has them, he would already be a polymath (or basically beyond it).

Kiyotaka heavily outclasses the likes of polymaths like Leonardo da Vinci as well, especially because the amount of knowledge da Vinci learnt cannot be compared to Kiyotaka's. da Vinci was living in 1400s while the maximum research done in science and technology was from 1600s to today. Fields like magnetostatics and electrostatics were revolutionized mainly in 1800s to 1900s and Kiyotaka had to learn about 600 more years of history, sciences and mathematical discoveries, which would basically be much more and almost 10 times more than what da Vinci learnt. In fact, even current polymaths like Nathan Myhrvold, Stephen Hawking, Elon Musk, Art Garfunkel, would fall way beyond in comparison to Kiyotaka.

Kiyotaka is beyond just a polymath, and you can never argue against it. Regarding him as polymath may as well just be an understatement.