Doremy Sweet vs Kirby

[Kirby71]

He has the ability to harm normally non-corporeal beings, also Kirby has more ways to get rid of low-godly regen like eficiente said.

 

[Sarvaughan]

Like what? I've already explained (multiple times) how she can counter them. And harming a specific type of non corporeal being does not mean you can harm all of them. And so far most people including Eficiente agree (or just haven't disproved yet) the many ways Doremy can kill Kirby, including erasing beyond resistance and summoning too hax characters.

 

[Kirby71]

Remember Cal's comments he also explained this,and Kirby still has more methods to win.

 

[Sarvaughan]

Like I've already said times before, I disproved Cal's thinking of non corporeality. I'm not saying he was wrong, he's very knowledgeable. It's just that the way Youkai in touhou's non corporeality works was different from the one Cal was explaining. And please explain these ways to win that if you read the whole thread will see like 3 lists when I debunked them with how Doremy can easily counter. And no one had countered my list of the ways Doremy can kill Kirby (especially with the summons)

 

[Eficiente]

If Kirby can affect Doremy with his haxes then he wins, if not then he loses. Sarvaughan says he can't, from what I know he should and Cal says he can (and isn't interested in being here).

So...should we call someone to clarify this or what? Apparently arguing and claiming answers to this is completely useless.

 

[Sarvaughan]

I've even gone as far to asking to limit Doremy's summoning since she can summon 3A characters.

 

[Sarvaughan]

We should get someone who's knowledgeable on both verses (and not bias to either) to read the whole thread and give their thoughts.

 

[Eficiente]

No offense but don't think you have disapproved Cal's comments, he is not here and we don't know his opinion about it.

We don't need to disapprove how Doremy can kill Kirby because she can definitely annihilate him, the only question is whether or not he can affect her with all his powers.

 

[Sarvaughan]

Ok. I can be reasonable with that. I never straight up debunked Cal, just gave lists and sources on how she could counter and not be affected by Kirby's transfiguration.

Eficiente what about Doremy summoning Kaguya to use eternity manipulation on her to where she's unaffected to change? That's one of Kaguya's powers.

 

[Eficiente]

I dunno.

 

[Sarvaughan]

........................

 

[Sarvaughan]

........ we need insight on this thread

 

[Fllflourine]

Holy shit yikes. A shitton of responses since I was gone. But anyways, seems that things need to be clarified, at least on Doremy's part:

Unless Kirby has shown the ability to remove the non-corporeal "mind" of something, Doremy can regenerate even if its transmutation. The body of a youkai, regardless of what happens to it, will not inconvenience the "mind", even if it is totally destroyed, which is worse than any sort of transmutation. Their mind can operate independently of the body.

Souls =/= Mind. Kirby being able to see souls/spirits/ghosts is irrelevant when fighting youkai, so it shouldn't affect Doremy that much. Unless Kirby can affect the soul of someone when it's still in their body, in other words: being able to hit ghosts =/= being able to punch out the soul of the enemy. The protagonists, who can kill phantoms with their regular attacks, are not able to kill youkai normally. In fact, Marisa states that the best way to actually kill a youkai is to get an evil spirit to possess them. Just as there are different intangibilities, there are different non-corporeals.

As for AP, she's implied to be billions of stars level by managing the Dream World and being able to manipulate the dreams in it.

Her summoning is literally just teleporting the Dream World version of someone.

While Kirby DOES have more methods to win by virtue of having much more powers, Doremy still has her arsenal in play. Including that BFR + Her other powers, like summoning Yukari.

 

[Sarvaughan]

...... well Fllf just explained what I had been trying to say in the past few hours better in only one comment.

.......... I think I'll go cry in a corner now

 

[Eficiente]

How does Kirby still has more methods to win? His hax versatility depends way too much on transmutation which wouldn't kill her, would that momentarily incapacitate her or something?

 

[Fllflourine]

Well Kirby does have a far greater array of powers and abilities, giving him more options.

While finding her body getting transmuted may inconvenience her a bit (As only Mamizou has done it to her so far), she'll probably just regenerate a new one on the spot once she knows whats going on, which should be quick enough, since she ain't no Cirno.

 

[Kirby71]

We forgot one thing,Kirby has possesion and emphatic manipulation,Doremy can become Kirby's slave,but im meaning more the possesion,Kirby can posses Doremy.

 

[Sarvaughan]

I agree that Kirby naturally has more abilities than Doremy. But her summoning kind of evens it out as she had access to utilize other touhou characters' powers

 

[Sarvaughan]

We forgot one thing,Kirby has possesion and emphatic manipulation,Doremy can become Kirby's slave,but im meaning more the possesion,Kirby can posses Doremy.

Empathetic manipulation is a form of mind manipulation which Doremy is resistant to, plus she had that non corporeal mind that normal possession couldn't really affect. And like Fllf said possession would only be harmful with evil spirits. Also what could Kirby even do then? Doremy can just discard her body and hax kill the old one with Kirby in it.

 

[Fllflourine]

Well, Doremy does not have an answer to possession, but empathic manipulation, see: Her mindhax resistance. Youkai can resist the Moon, which has a lethal, madness inducing effect on humans.

Altho that shouldn't rly matter here, as he's getting haxxed.

 

[Sarvaughan]

She doesn't have a clear cut resistance to possession, but like I said couldn't she discard her old body and hax Kirby while still in it?

 

[Eficiente]

If transmutation is nothing but a small inconvenience I'm voting Doremy. There are a couple of things I could clarify in Kirby's favor but nothing relevante to change the outcome.

 

[Sarvaughan]

What's the count now? I think it's 5-3-0 in Doremy's favor

 

[Kirby71]

Well Eficiente didnt change the vote to Doremy yet,he says he will change if trasmutation is proven to do not make fatal damage to Doremy.

 

[Eficiente]

I already change my vote to her, Kirby's doomed here.

 

[Sarvaughan]

What else would be needed to explain why it doesn't? I'm just asking to clarify

 

[Eficiente]

Fllflourine's clarification is more than enough I believe.

 

[Sarvaughan]

So it's 5-3-0?

 

[Kirby71]

Well,we are all alone here,lets see if someone comes here, nearby 200 comments but nobody came.

 

[Sarvaughan]

@Kirby71

Is there any specific reason you're still voting Kirby? There's nothing wrong with it, just wondering

 

[Kirby71]

Im waiting for now but im about to change vote at this rate.

 

[Sarvaughan]

Ok. All good

 

[Andykhang]

Okay...just to clarify, Doremy is only known for destroying thing in the Dream world itself, by eating dream, that's her entire shtick. Being practically a dream god doesn't mean the same would applied to the physical world, and eating people's dream just make people wake up at best. And putting aside whether she could summon dream version or not, it's not guarantee that the same people would listen, or even not trying to kill her the moment they been called, so they're not a consistent source of power.

 

[Sarvaughan]

The dream world in Touhou is a physical plane. The physical world itself has nothing to do with the battle as it takes place in her world anyway. And when she can summon the dream world version of a character how could they not listen to her when they aren't sentient and don't have the mentality of the real version? They're just a physical copy of the person that has all of their powers and strengths. She summons them to attack or use their ability.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Inflicting madness isn't similar to Kirby's empathic hax, which just forces anyone to be his friend. Also, I don't see her void hax trumping his resistance. Her summoning someone like Yukari, but I honestly think that should be removed from her profile as from what I've heard and seen on her profile, it's purely theoretical and she's never done that before.

Putting Kirby in a dream is an Auto win for Kirby actually, as the Star Rod forces it to be a good dream for him, which would involve beating her.

About AP, Kirby is scaled to Dark Mind, who, while blowing up and beaten mostly to death, creates a nigh-limitless amount of stars as a pathway just to run away from Kirby. I could wank that far above 4-A, but Kirby definitely has the AP advantage.

You know you can't regenerate from something that doesn't destroy your body, right? It's why transmutation is useful on Mid-Godly characters. And I haven't seen evidence that any Youkai can just discard their body rather than just having their mind be active if it's gone and can come back from that, nor have I seen evidence that a Youkai's mind would remain conscious from transmutation on Kirby's level, when unlike Mamizou, Kirby's victims don't remain sentient.

 

[Sarvaughan]

Doremy doesn't have void hax. If summoning is ever removed that may make it a different story, but until it's done in a revision thread, I'll consider it to be valid. And AP has little to compare to hax that you have no resistance to (absolute death, destruction, time erasure, boundary manipulation, etc.). And if you can't regenerate when you don't have a body, how do you explain every youkai touhou character being able to do so if you look at their profile? Also I've never seen Kirby's power work on a non corporeal mind, so how is there evidence it would work now? If he can only harm physically non corporeal ghosts how does that correspond with minds? And if AP was brought up and no one has agreed with my requests what's stopping Doremy from summoning Hecatia to universe AP one shot Kirby?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I've already created a talk page, but I'll make a CRT if need be. Which would affect all that above (since no Eirin, Sakuya, Hecatia, and Yukari). That's not what I said. I said you can't regenerate if you weren't hit by something that would require Regenerationn. As in there's nothing to activate the regen, because you didn't get destroyed, just changed. Your body was just turned into something else. And I'm really not understanding this non-corporeal mind thing. I'm not doubting it, just asking for an understanding.

 

[Eficiente]

Doremy being a unique case for Kirby was one thing, but how would his haxes, like Empathic Manipulation, suddenly not affect the minds of his non-corporeal enemies?

 

[Sarvaughan]

Like I and others have already said, empathic manipulation is a form of mind manipulation. Doremy and other youkai are resistant to that as they aren't affected by the true moon which drives minds crazy and causes humans to die. And it's not non-coporeal enemies that I say Kirby has no evidence of affecting, it's non-corporeal MINDS themselves which don't follow the same laws as regular minds. Only reality warping or conceptual erasure can do that, neither of which Kirby has. If there is a misunderstanding look up what non-corporeal is on the wiki. But I'll try my best to explain. Non corporeality is basically meaning your physical body doesn't matter to you as you exist as something beyond that. This applies to physical non corporeality such as demons or ghost. A non corporeal mind means your mind exist above normal laws. For example, trying to mind erase one wouldn't work as the target's mind isn't on the same plane of existence as normal minds (sorry, this is kind of hard to explain in words to others.) If there is still confusion, try asking someone like Fllfourine.

 

[Sarvaughan]

However, it is possible to still somewhat interact with them as youkai like Koishi and Satori can do it. But tbh I don't know if it's different since they have non corporeal minds too.