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Ok. We just need a vote tally. I feel this is going back and forth forever. I'm still voting Doremy.
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Doremy Sweet vs Kirby
- Thread starter Saikou_The_Lewd_King
- Start date
- Status
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I don't see why, but currently he can with his Warp Star which he summons or creates.
Can it travel inbetween 4D Brane Worlds? While I don't see universal/dimensional travel that can do such on his profile, I'll take your word for it.
Kirby still scales to Dark Nebula and Drawcia, so who has the AP & dura advantages here?
Doremy is on a high end 4-A, capable of creating dozens of dreams at once, and even a single one of them can contain several stars and nebulae, of which she can nuke casually. It's not too much of a stretch to say that she can go much further in non-spellcard fights. She also manages the entire Dream World, which has all the dreams of all living beings on the Earth and the Moon, and being able to manipulate dreams, its implied she can manipulate all of it.
Also, not quite sure if Doremy can be beaten through transmutation. Her Low Godly regen is more than just regen; since her body is pretty much meaningless, her true self being her disembodied "mind". If her current one is transmuted she can simply regenerate a new one.
As for Empathic Manipulation and putting her to sleep, it should also be noted that versatility means someone is less likely to use certain powers, even if they're bloodlusted (and a bloodlusted combatant always goes for the most effective method first, altho both combatants do not have prior knowledge here at the start of the fight). Kirby also has powers that are better suited for combat than empathic manipulation and sleep manipulation, such as transmutation.
As for danmaku, it's been answered previously; Touhou is on a whole nother level compared to most other franchises when it comes to danmaku (even in casual, friendly play) and Kirby's ability to reflect danmaku can be countered with forcefields.
Finally, how good is Hypernova's void manipulation?
Can it travel inbetween 4D Brane Worlds? While I don't see universal/dimensional travel that can do such on his profile, I'll take your word for it.
Kirby still scales to Dark Nebula and Drawcia, so who has the AP & dura advantages here?
Doremy is on a high end 4-A, capable of creating dozens of dreams at once, and even a single one of them can contain several stars and nebulae, of which she can nuke casually. It's not too much of a stretch to say that she can go much further in non-spellcard fights. She also manages the entire Dream World, which has all the dreams of all living beings on the Earth and the Moon, and being able to manipulate dreams, its implied she can manipulate all of it.
Also, not quite sure if Doremy can be beaten through transmutation. Her Low Godly regen is more than just regen; since her body is pretty much meaningless, her true self being her disembodied "mind". If her current one is transmuted she can simply regenerate a new one.
As for Empathic Manipulation and putting her to sleep, it should also be noted that versatility means someone is less likely to use certain powers, even if they're bloodlusted (and a bloodlusted combatant always goes for the most effective method first, altho both combatants do not have prior knowledge here at the start of the fight). Kirby also has powers that are better suited for combat than empathic manipulation and sleep manipulation, such as transmutation.
As for danmaku, it's been answered previously; Touhou is on a whole nother level compared to most other franchises when it comes to danmaku (even in casual, friendly play) and Kirby's ability to reflect danmaku can be countered with forcefields.
Finally, how good is Hypernova's void manipulation?
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Vote Tally currently:
Doremy: 4 (Me, Sarv, Glass, and ScarletM. Not counting Kuularne's due to him being banned)
Kirby: 2 (Cal, Zach)
Inconclusive: 1 (Efi)
Doremy: 4 (Me, Sarv, Glass, and ScarletM. Not counting Kuularne's due to him being banned)
Kirby: 2 (Cal, Zach)
Inconclusive: 1 (Efi)
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I know I was told earlier that it was, but is Doremy restricted from summoning? It's not in the op or anything.
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^ You were answered by Kuularne, not the OP. The OP doesn't say anything about summoning being restricted so I'd assume it's fair game.
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Well...... This just made it depressing for Kirby. Not only does he have to go against lowball 6 bloodlusted Doremy, but other Touhou characters? : Sakuya Yukari Yuyuko Flandre = Kirby RIP x1000
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No existence erasure resistance or mid high Regenerationn is going to save him from absolute death manipulation or destruction. Then a time stop from the maid with time erasure....
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He travels from one universe to another, nothing more.
Kirby is half of a galaxy levels of 4-A, which is why he sometimes fights 3-C characters, without anything similar to that he one-shots naturally.
How does Kirby doesn't also transmute her mind?
Pretty sure that being bloodlusted and having a genius intelligence (accepted some Kirby threads ago, still not added) would make Kirby use any power with a unique ability.
"just saying"
Nothing special for Hypernova.
Well, we need more information about her Low-Godly regen. In the worst scenario Kirby just can't kill her, but, again, this wasn't a problem with Jedah.
Kirby is half of a galaxy levels of 4-A, which is why he sometimes fights 3-C characters, without anything similar to that he one-shots naturally.
How does Kirby doesn't also transmute her mind?
Pretty sure that being bloodlusted and having a genius intelligence (accepted some Kirby threads ago, still not added) would make Kirby use any power with a unique ability.
"just saying"
Nothing special for Hypernova.
Well, we need more information about her Low-Godly regen. In the worst scenario Kirby just can't kill her, but, again, this wasn't a problem with Jedah.
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But she could easily kill Kirby once she summons someone like Yuyuko. That character had absolute death manipulation that you can't regenerate or revive from. It's absolute unless you have taken the Hourai Elixir (you don't have a concept of death) or have boundary manipulation like Yukari. Then she has Sakuya who can time stop Kirby and Flandre who has the destruction of anything and everything ability.
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Okey, but Ghost Kirby is immune to death manipulation and the Kirbys that Kirby summons and his duplicates have the same powers as the real Kirby.
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Yuyuko can still control souls and as stated in her profile her ability ignores all resistances. And still doesn't stop a summoned Yukari Yakumo to delete the boundary of ghost Kirby's death factor.
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I think it still leans to Doremy though. Kirby has quite a few ways to beat her, mainly void deletion, but Doremy had so many ways to counter him and bypass all of his hax resistances.
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Pretty sure that being bloodlusted and having a genius intelligence (accepted some Kirby threads ago, still not added) would make Kirby use any power with a unique ability.
But which one will he use first out of his plethora of ways to take this? Doremy will surely go for instantaneous BFR for her first move, and as Sarvau said previously, this will still buy time for Doremy to use her other moves, like summoning Yukari/Kaguya/Another haxxed 2hu.
How does Kirby doesn't also transmute her mind?
Has Kirby transmuted beings with incorporeal minds before?
Well, we need more information about her Low-Godly regen. In the worst scenario Kirby just can't kill her, but, again, this wasn't a problem with Jedah.
Doremy and other Youkai can regenerate from simply their disembodied mind. It need not matter if their body is completely erased. So long as the mind is intact, they can just regenerate on the spot. Physical attacks will do nothing ultimately, you need mind/soul attacks for it, preferably anti-evil/demon busting ones, and Youkai still have some decent mindhax resistance on top of it
But which one will he use first out of his plethora of ways to take this? Doremy will surely go for instantaneous BFR for her first move, and as Sarvau said previously, this will still buy time for Doremy to use her other moves, like summoning Yukari/Kaguya/Another haxxed 2hu.
How does Kirby doesn't also transmute her mind?
Has Kirby transmuted beings with incorporeal minds before?
Well, we need more information about her Low-Godly regen. In the worst scenario Kirby just can't kill her, but, again, this wasn't a problem with Jedah.
Doremy and other Youkai can regenerate from simply their disembodied mind. It need not matter if their body is completely erased. So long as the mind is intact, they can just regenerate on the spot. Physical attacks will do nothing ultimately, you need mind/soul attacks for it, preferably anti-evil/demon busting ones, and Youkai still have some decent mindhax resistance on top of it
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^ Unless the transmutation can affect beings with disembodied minds, it won't have an effect on Doremy (+She can duplicate).
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There's a character in touhou that specializes in transfiguration. Mamizou. Whenever a touhou character is transformed they still maintain their mind. And Doremy has a non corporeal mind. Kirby has no way to affect it. Thus she doesn't even need her body to exist. While Kirby's busy eating an item he thinks is Doremy, she's already reformed and able to one shot him with a summon.
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@Efic What type of ghost are they portrayed as? Can you give a video?
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Looks like the current tally is:
Doremy: 5 (Me, Glass, Sarv, Scarlet, Efi)
Kirby: 2 (Cal, Zach)
Inc: 0
Doremy: 5 (Me, Glass, Sarv, Scarlet, Efi)
Kirby: 2 (Cal, Zach)
Inc: 0
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- Thread starter
- #103
From what I see, the Cook ability doesn't appear in any game where ghosts appear.
Even then, Kirby can normally hit all of those ghost enemies. And the ability to hit non-corporeal enemies isn't on his profile, so that would need a different thread to be added. Kirby hitting non-corporeal would also be contradictory, since one specific kind of ghost enemy can't be killed due to their non-corporeal status.
Also, I'm not sure if hitting Souls would be enough to kill a Youkai, given that a "Mind" =/= Soul in Touhou. And spiritual damage when it comes to Youkai is mostly represented as Mental and not Soul-based. Whether or not Youkai have souls/needs one to exist, however, is unknown.
Even then, Kirby can normally hit all of those ghost enemies. And the ability to hit non-corporeal enemies isn't on his profile, so that would need a different thread to be added. Kirby hitting non-corporeal would also be contradictory, since one specific kind of ghost enemy can't be killed due to their non-corporeal status.
Also, I'm not sure if hitting Souls would be enough to kill a Youkai, given that a "Mind" =/= Soul in Touhou. And spiritual damage when it comes to Youkai is mostly represented as Mental and not Soul-based. Whether or not Youkai have souls/needs one to exist, however, is unknown.
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Non corporeal is completely different from intangiblity (look up its page). I agree that Kirby can physically interact with Doremy, but not permanently kill her without void suck. With a non corporeal mind, you'd need an extremely high amount of mind manipulation, reality warping, or conceptual erasure. Kirby only has one of those with void erasing while Doremy has multiple ways of putting him down.
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That's a weakness for Mamizou rather than a plus for 2hu characters (like Majin Buu)Sarvaughan said:
Also, I don't think summoning fully sentient characters like Sakuya or waif-I mean Yukari is well...allowed.
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Yes cause her mind wouldn't be affected so she could transform back. She also doesn't need her body to exist so she could just reform outside of the item she was turned into.
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That's a weakness for Mamizou rather than a plus for 2hu characters (like Majin Buu)
Also, I don't think summoning fully sentient characters like Sakuya or waif-I mean Yukari is well...allowed.
Maybe so for Mamizou, maybe not (I'm not really a expert on her, not a fan of her). But that doesn't change that Doremy's mind can still exist letting her take action. And for summoning, it isn't restricted in the op so it's allowed. And about her summoning, it doesn't copy that character's mentality or sentience. It's just a way for Doremy to use another person's power. And she does know what the summoned person can do as she's been in their dreams.
Also, I don't think summoning fully sentient characters like Sakuya or waif-I mean Yukari is well...allowed.
Maybe so for Mamizou, maybe not (I'm not really a expert on her, not a fan of her). But that doesn't change that Doremy's mind can still exist letting her take action. And for summoning, it isn't restricted in the op so it's allowed. And about her summoning, it doesn't copy that character's mentality or sentience. It's just a way for Doremy to use another person's power. And she does know what the summoned person can do as she's been in their dreams.
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So she's not summoning the character, just the powers? That's allowed then. About the transmutation thing, you don't retain sentience upon transmutation, so her mind wouldn't be left intact.
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For her it does. She has a non corporeal mind which simple transmutation couldn't affect. You'd need high reality warping or conceptual erasure.
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Mind really just means sentience, dude. While she doesn't need a brain, she needs sentience. Conceptual erasure is overkill.
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Non corporeality means any physical change done to the person will not affect them. Their existence is in a higher plane of form. With this mind she can still reform with her god regen. And then she could summon Kaguya, whose eternity manipulation makes it where Doremy is unaffected to any outside force of change.
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There are tier 2 non-corporeals that are affected by transmutation, my friend. Also, last part w/ Kaguya becomes NLF real quick.
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It's not me that trying to NLF Kaguya. That's literally just her ability in her page and the touhou wiki. Her power is to manipulate eternity. Thus makes where change to her or other things are nulled as their form is stuck in that moment of time. She can also manipulate instantaneous by basically removing the time it takes for something to happen between the effect it would have. So Doremy could use Kaguya's ability to make danmaku hit nigh instantly or summoning time too.
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It's cause the dream world. As she rules over it, she has knowledge on most if not all touhou characters through their dreams. And since she can replicate these dreams (which are physical in her world) she could also summon the dreamer's form itself.
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Did she do this before?
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In game for a character summoning, no. It would kind of be unfair with spellcard rules. As for summoning what's in the dreams physically, yes. That's why it's listed as potentially summoning the dream world self of any character.
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