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Doremy Sweet vs Kirby
- Thread starter Saikou_The_Lewd_King
- Start date
- Status
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Just how would it not avoid it if empathic manipulation is mind manipulation? And just what would Kirby do if it did? Cause making her his friend wouldn't really be something a bloodlusted person would do. But first I need a reason or example of how Kirby's empathy manipulation is different from others unless it's a scientific biological form of it which I doubt.
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Me and Cal already say it, it's not more complicated than that. And also, "Bloodlust refers to a state where a character is fighting without any inhibitions, and cares about nothing other than defeating the enemy." and "A bloodlusted character will not be victim to Character Induced Stupidity", so yeah I can see Kirby using it here.
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I still fail to understand how mind manipulation would work on a mind manipulation resistant character unless it's stronger than that resistance, which for Kirby I doubt it is. And since it's like that bloodlust, what's to stop Doremy from putting Kirby to sleep (which he has no resistance to) and then proceed to attack or hax him to death?
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I agree that a simple topic of "mind" is vast, but it's that exactly which has me skeptical on how empathy manipulation does not cover it in resistance. If resisting a moon which can cause people to totally go insane, how is making someone become happy, sad, depressed, etc. any worse?
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Use Empathic Manipulation to turn someone into your friend by unspecified forms can be interpreted in many ways, turn someone insane can be interpreted in many, many other ways. It's not correct to say that if someone can resist one then it can also resist the other.
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Inflicting madness isn't similar to Kirby's empathic hax, which just forces anyone to be his friend.
...It doesn't matter. It is still mindhax.
Putting Kirby in a dream is an Auto win for Kirby actually, as the Star Rod forces it to be a good dream for him, which would involve beating her.
The Dream World is also not like a literal dream, as stated previously.
Her summoning someone like Yukari, but I honestly think that should be removed from her profile as from what I've heard and seen on her profile, it's purely theoretical and she's never done that before.
See her talk page and Saikou's clarification on it.
You know you can't regenerate from something that doesn't destroy your body, right? It's why transmutation is useful on Mid-Godly characters. And I haven't seen evidence that any Youkai can just discard their body rather than just having their mind be active if it's gone and can come back from that, nor have I seen evidence that a Youkai's mind would remain conscious from transmutation on Kirby's level, when unlike Mamizou, Kirby's victims don't remain sentient.
The body of a youkai is nothing more than a tool to them. They were VERY close to being outright Non-corporeal instead of having regen.
That's because the core of a youkai is not its body, but its mind.
"Even if I die I'll just be reborn, and if I can't be reborn I'll be fine as a phantom."
For what's it worth, their bodies are also said to be different from the ones we're used to:
Merry said that if we refer to the world we humans observe, which is dominated by photons, as "the world here," then there are also countless "worlds beyond" dominated by other types of particles. And in those "worlds beyond," there are life-forms living there as well.
"Those life-forms that are invisible, but exist very close to us, and can appear to us via fluctuations are youkai, in my opinion."
She said the attacking youkai came soaring through the sky, just like formless quantum particles racing to and fro in a vacuum.
Although to admit, Kirby does have the foolproof method of putting Doremy down, and that is possession. Which, in Marisa's words, is the best way of killing a youkai for good.
...It doesn't matter. It is still mindhax.
Putting Kirby in a dream is an Auto win for Kirby actually, as the Star Rod forces it to be a good dream for him, which would involve beating her.
The Dream World is also not like a literal dream, as stated previously.
Her summoning someone like Yukari, but I honestly think that should be removed from her profile as from what I've heard and seen on her profile, it's purely theoretical and she's never done that before.
See her talk page and Saikou's clarification on it.
You know you can't regenerate from something that doesn't destroy your body, right? It's why transmutation is useful on Mid-Godly characters. And I haven't seen evidence that any Youkai can just discard their body rather than just having their mind be active if it's gone and can come back from that, nor have I seen evidence that a Youkai's mind would remain conscious from transmutation on Kirby's level, when unlike Mamizou, Kirby's victims don't remain sentient.
The body of a youkai is nothing more than a tool to them. They were VERY close to being outright Non-corporeal instead of having regen.
That's because the core of a youkai is not its body, but its mind.
"Even if I die I'll just be reborn, and if I can't be reborn I'll be fine as a phantom."
For what's it worth, their bodies are also said to be different from the ones we're used to:
Merry said that if we refer to the world we humans observe, which is dominated by photons, as "the world here," then there are also countless "worlds beyond" dominated by other types of particles. And in those "worlds beyond," there are life-forms living there as well.
"Those life-forms that are invisible, but exist very close to us, and can appear to us via fluctuations are youkai, in my opinion."
She said the attacking youkai came soaring through the sky, just like formless quantum particles racing to and fro in a vacuum.
Although to admit, Kirby does have the foolproof method of putting Doremy down, and that is possession. Which, in Marisa's words, is the best way of killing a youkai for good.
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- Thread starter
- #209
Do you guys not realize how meaningless Versatility is here? There is a reason why White Face can win against people with literal walls of abilities: None of them can counter his Power Nullification.
Versatility only matters in long matches. This is a hax match with bloodlusted characters. If Kirby can't survive BFR or Doremy's major powers, he won't have time to try every single minute powers of his until he falls on the very few ones that will do jackshit.
Also:
-Star Rod: Meaningless. Kirby can't Reality Warp an actual physical realm with it.
-Transmutation: Meaningless. Youkai do not need physical bodies. They were VERY close to just be outright Non-Corporeal instead of having Low-Godly.
-Empathic Manip: See my versatility argument above. And Doremy survived something that would drive people insane. Simple Empathic Manipulation won't affect her.
-Andykhang: Stop. Go away. Don't come back. Go make a thread if you so adamantly believe that. But do not bring it up in a goddamn VS Thread.
Versatility only matters in long matches. This is a hax match with bloodlusted characters. If Kirby can't survive BFR or Doremy's major powers, he won't have time to try every single minute powers of his until he falls on the very few ones that will do jackshit.
Also:
-Star Rod: Meaningless. Kirby can't Reality Warp an actual physical realm with it.
-Transmutation: Meaningless. Youkai do not need physical bodies. They were VERY close to just be outright Non-Corporeal instead of having Low-Godly.
-Empathic Manip: See my versatility argument above. And Doremy survived something that would drive people insane. Simple Empathic Manipulation won't affect her.
-Andykhang: Stop. Go away. Don't come back. Go make a thread if you so adamantly believe that. But do not bring it up in a goddamn VS Thread.
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I disagree with the Empathic Manipulation argument, just saying Mind Hax covers all this and more, which she cannot resist, Kirby's EM is not different.
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- Thread starter
- #211
So you're saying Empathic Manip is just one aspect of mind hax, which Doremy resists? Then why would that be remotely effective here?
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- #213
If you can resist having your mind be manipulated, then manipulating it in a more specific way won't do anything. Especially since inducing madness is pretty damn close to Empathic Manipulation.
What even IS Kirby's Empathic Manipulation? Is it remotely relevant?
What even IS Kirby's Empathic Manipulation? Is it remotely relevant?
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That's what I am saying. It says on EM's page it's a form of mind manipulation unless it's in the biology changing form which considering Kirby's verse, I don't think it is.
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I vote Doremy for Flourine's and Sarvaughn's reasons.
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- Thread starter
- #216
Don't use my reasons. I'm not voting, since I'm the OP. I'm just debunking those very...poor reasons.
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Ok but your explanation basically made the reasonings for Kirby pretty much invalid.
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I still disagree, you don't give Resistance to all types of Mind Manip to someone who resisted mind based Illusions or have his memories altered. And in terms of Mind Manipulation there are too many ways to induce madness.
As for how relevant this is, it's not.
As for how relevant this is, it's not.
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- #219
Resistance to Illusions is Resistance to Illusion. Memory Manip can fall under Mind Manip.
No there aren't. Not with Mind Manip. Saying that she doesn't resist Empathic Manip despite resisting something that inflicts madness directly is just extreme nitpicking.
No there aren't. Not with Mind Manip. Saying that she doesn't resist Empathic Manip despite resisting something that inflicts madness directly is just extreme nitpicking.
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Anybody know the current tally? Also @Kirby71 did you change your vote?
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They not, because dream self isn't what you think. They're essentially the same people but, due to the nature of dream, they lack self-restrain, and is always honest. That doesn't mean they're any less sentient, or incapable of putting a cap in her head the moment they have been called forth. It's practically wild card here.Sarvaughan said:
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- #222
The alternate versions are fully sentient and exactly equal in all respects to their original counterpart except for their lack of restraint and honesty. But I doubt they'd turn against Doremy.
Though honestly, Doremy would likely try and BFR first instead of summoning people.
Though honestly, Doremy would likely try and BFR first instead of summoning people.
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Doremy: 6 (Me, Glass, BlueTrek, Sarv, Scarlet, Efi)
Kirby: 3 (Cal, Zach), plus Kirby71, but not sure if he changed his vote. He said that at this rate he'll change it but I would like an explicit statement.
Inconclusive: 0
Kirby: 3 (Cal, Zach), plus Kirby71, but not sure if he changed his vote. He said that at this rate he'll change it but I would like an explicit statement.
Inconclusive: 0
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can't Kirby just Hypernova everything?
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Doremy can teleport and create portals to be out of Kirby's range.
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>If you can resist having your mind be manipulated, then manipulating It in a more specific way won't do anything.Saikou The Lewd King said:
Resisting a type of mind manipulationÔëáGetting the guarantee of resisting every kind of mindhax, im sure there exists a character resistent to a specific mindhax but its a affected by a mindhax user with another type of mindhax.
Also inducing madnessÔëámaking you to be a friend,mostly because its illusion resistance which isn't remotely close to directly being transformed in a friend.
Again illusionÔëáx1000 to "hahaha i slave you to be my friend"
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https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1263522
Coming from Verses with rules where this isn't the case I can see the confusion in that matter, I must say.
Coming from Verses with rules where this isn't the case I can see the confusion in that matter, I must say.
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Ok first off, when was Doremy's teleportation and BFR debunked? Am I going crazy from the moon or something? Also causing someone to go insane still changes their feelings. They'd go through a multitude of emotions ranging from confusion, to fear, to anguish, to down a right mental break down. This is like saying resisting damage to your soul doesn't mean you can resist damage to your spirit. Or like resisting a time stop doesn't mean you can resist time slowing.
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Having been to dozens of Homura threads, they aren't automatically the same thing. But besides that, Kirby still wins via having more ways to win quicker. Because only way she can put Kirby down for good is via summoning, which requires her to transport them into the dream world (which in itself might screw her over because again, Star Rod's own dream hax), summon someone capable of winning, and then having them be assigned hax Kirby to death. While each one happens really quickly, nothing's stopping Kirby from teleporting over to her and possessing her. Because Kirby only needs A to win, and while Doremy only needs C, she needs to go through A and B first.
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Um. They're already in the dream world. It says so in the op. And Doremy still can put Kirby to sleep herself, duplicate and erase him beyond his resistance, and bfr his items out of his range. And Doremy can teleport too and create portals. What can Kirby even do really to permanently put Doremy down?
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And since when is an item that can manipulate dreams to a limit better than a person themselves being a ruler over them?
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Really, the only things I see Kirby doing to beat Doremy is void suck and possession. But she can counter both of those. For sucking, she can teleport and portal herself away. For possession he would need to be ghost Kirby, which would never happen in the first place with a summoned Yuyuko. And summoning someone who causes absolute death as a get go would be a very bloodlusted thing to do.
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-_-
please look at my posts early in the thread
please look at my posts early in the thread
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I mentioned her duplicating herself several times
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How wouldn't duplicating yourself with each clone being just as powerful help. If you've seen how much one touhou character can overwhelm someone from gameplay, imagine 6 and more
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Yeah we purposely estimated Doremy to be able to do six when in her dream world she could clearly do more
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