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Doremy Sweet vs Kirby

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It does when the power being talked about here is a matter of circumstances, which are unknown for the sake of a minigame or a challenge. I'm not denying a feat of destruction or speed from Kirby in a minigame, I'm denying that Kirby gaining specific ability for a challenge that requires said ability should be used as a proof that Kirby can pull out Copy Abilities from nowhere at all times.
 
>The fact that those are obviously disconnected from the main plot.

Which still changes nothing since we take that into consideration.

>What's telling us Kirby didn't swallow or in any way prepare this ability beforehand? Or the fact that this copy ability is automatically granted when ones enter a specific challenge? Especially if you're pulling this ability out of a goddamn title screen.

What is shown to us is vastly clear for this.

>I'm saying it again: Kirby being able to automatically chooses all of his abilities at any time without needing to absorb an enemy not only contradicts nearly the whole series, but it goes against the whole concept of the character: Swallowing an enemy to get their powers.

Except that he still does that, having that power doesn't change his habits. And he has done this in Milky Way Wishes. Also he also goes against that concept of the character without his habits in more than 12 games.

>I think that it's clear that Kirby automatically getting an ability that matches the challenge he enters is game mechanic and not Kirby simply using his so-called ability to summon any and all of his copy abilities freely and that he just "forgot" to use it at any time in the series outside of those.

It isn't that clear since that interpretation its no better than the other one, which has showed consistency.

>I'm denying that Kirby gaining specific ability for a challenge that requires said ability should be used as a proof that Kirby can pull out Copy Abilities from nowhere at all times

You're seriously over complicating this.

Also one of the argument of this was that the Copy Palette's limited space was supposed to be infinitely bigger, literally.
 
Kirby CAN avoid that BFR, Kirby's dimensional travel was accepted but its not added yet,its obvious you cant see it in his profile.
 
Everything above was accepted in previous Kirby threads, except Popstar being the size of a star.

Also, this profile, he has a feat of going from one universe to another.
 
The Warp Star only has dimension hopping, not universe. It s range however is universal but that still can't compare to instantaneous bfr and multi-universe range. Is the warp star an actual vehicle or a magical item able to be summoned? Cause nothing would stop Doremy from BFRing it way permanently if there's only one of it.
 
"Universal & Dimensional Travel" was accepted for all its users as Magolor's dimension is both things (and also Superpower Wiki has no page for the first one.) I have no idea where the "Universal" range comes from.
 
>Transmutation

The fact that transmutation is a viable argument against people like effing Lucemon, Arceus, and Lavos show that the fact of the "mind" being able to neg it is bs, no offense.

>Dimension hopping

I never once claimed that the Warpstar can do that. I claimed that the Crystal Shards can do so. And to answer Sara's question, he can create Warp Stars at will.

>Instant copy abilities

Honestly, the fact that you're debating this when it's at least shown to do that, even though the crux of Doremy's argument relies on something she's never done, isn't cool.

>>Contradicts his whole character

Yeah, so does infinite speed Sonic. Doesn't make it any less legit. Your point?

>BFR

Not only have I constantly said that the Star Rod has been used as a Get Out of Dreams Free Card as a crucial plot point, but why would BFR to the Lunar Capital matter? That's in the physical world, irrc, and for either one of their speeds, getting to the battlefield is easy. Furthermore, BFR is a form of spatial manipulation, which Kirby hard resists. Keep in mind that your argument about empathic and mind comes into play here.

>Danmaku

I've said it a thousand times: Mirror make that work in Kirby's favor. Hope Doremy enjoys all of her projectiles onto her.

>Range

If 20 meters, no way is she going to get out of dodge quick enough, or try any of that before attacking.

>Arguments that I've missed

Time stop, and unlike Doremy, he doesn't need to summon anyone for it. And before the Time Beam argument comes up, Flavor text of some of the rods show that Kirby really just needs to raise his rod in the air. Information manipulation screws her over as well. So does Baton, and Kirby's ability to fuse her with his abilities.
 
Doremy has attack reflection too you know? And she can also erase danmaku. I have no side on the whole copy thing but bringing up she can't summon although in two threads she was proven she could isn't a viable argument. And why does she have to dodge when she can instant teleport or bfr Kirby? And not only have we said her dream world isn't just some normal dream, but a physical plane so the Star Rod would not work. And resisting teleporting/changing an environment around an opponent is something Kirby has never shown. He's resisted space based ATTACKS not a dimension change. Resisting your mind being changed is one thing, but saying resisting black holes and similar attacks means you can resist environmental change is another.
 
Doremy doesn't have attack reflection. It's not on her profile. Nor is the ability to erase danmaku. I've looked for these summoning threads and still haven't seen them (other than that talk page I opened). Whether it being a physical or spiritual plane, IT DOESN'T MATTER, because it's still a dream world, and Kirby used the Star Rod to get him out of a place where someone was going to kill him in his sleep. Spatial thing, both, Galacta Knight and Magolor, open up giant pockets of space on Kirby. So again, whether or not it's a spiritual plane or not, Kirby still has hard counters, whether its his resistance to pocket realities and spatial manipulation or the Star Rod's dream control.
 
Basically, Kirby wins because, similar to TFS!Piccolo in Dead Zone Abridged, unlike her, he doesn't need help.
 
Look at the Antimony of Common Flowers revision thread by Fllfourine and you'll see exactly what I mean. She can summon as proven by the results of your talk page and that thread. The star rod has never once shown to "get him out of" a physical plane. And the star rod's dream control is absolute fodder compared to Doremy's. So in the end winning because of summoning doesn't matter if it's a win that hax screws your opponent who has no counters to them. As for the attack reflection/danmaku erasure it's all through summoning characters.
 
Do I need to Taikyoku this thread? I will if you all cannot play nice.

"Basically, Kirby wins because, similar to TFS!Piccolo in Dead Zone Abridged, unlike her, he doesn't need help."

But does Kirby have the cloth beam? If not your argument is invalid. :P
 
What exactly stops Doremy from summoning Eirin to use the Ultramarine Elixir orb as she has knowledge on her and her creations?
 
@Dragon. Lol. But in all seriousness, I'm not getting mad at Sara, who's a good debater.

@Sara.

>Common Flowers thread

Was in that revision. We all agreed, and the fact that I made that talk page (which btw, wasn't concluded), means that people can change their minds. Even Saikou himself said "potentially".

>Has NEVER shown to get him out of a physical plane

Yet it has been shown to get him out of a Dream World. Also, literally the climax of Fright to the Finish

>Fodder dream hax in comparison

Does Doremy's presence alone result in reality warping of dreams of everyone across the planet? (Honest question, because idk)

>Summoning

I know I mentioned this above, but quite frankly, it's still not a good point. Like, it's almost as bad as SB Janemba, if not, worse, because at least we've seen him make copies of others. We're one, not sure she can do it, two, not sure their dream world selves are equal, and three not sure they'll obey her. Not to mention that all of her counters rely on that, and if she doesn't summon, she's dead. And unlike say, a Pokémon Trainer, it's far from her first move, bloodlust or no. She gets time stopped long before that.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Do I need to Ahura Mazda this thread? I will if you all cannot play nice.

"Basically, Kirby wins because, similar to TFS!Piccolo in Dead Zone Abridged, unlike her, he doesn't need help."

But does Kirby have the cloth beam? If not your argument is invalid. :P
Click to expand...
Corrected your mistake Dragoon
 
It's shown to get out of a mental world only. Just because they're both called dream worlds doesn't automatically make them the same. Presence alone, I'm not certain but only slight movements such as a shrug can do it across multiple worlds/dimensions (whatever you consider the planes in Touhou). For summoning, I just see that they're supposed to be equal to their real counterparts and don't have the mentality of them, so controlling them is no issue. And if we take out character summoning, she can still summon items. As she has knowledge on most if not all Touhou characters, she has knowledge on Eirin's elixir and other items used by characters. As she manipulate what's in and appears in her world, making items as such is no problem.
 
Kirby CAN avoid that BFR, Kirby's dimensional travel was accepted but its not added yet,its obvious you cant see it in his profile.

Using what? I concede on Kirby being able to travel inbetween universes, but Doremy has an instantaneous BFR that can send you all the way across universes.

Also, this profile, he has a feat of going from one universe to another.

Alrighty. Is the dimensional travel instantaneous?

The fact that transmutation is a viable argument against people like effing Lucemon, Arceus, and Lavos show that the fact of the "mind" being able to neg it is bs, no offense.

Arguably, transmuting someone is killing them, as it is no longer their body. But bigger issue is that this is a red herring/association fallacy, and also assumes that a Youkai's non-corporeality is mechanically similar to these 3 Tier 2s.

Honestly, the fact that you're debating this when it's at least shown to do that, even though the crux of Doremy's argument relies on something she's never done, isn't cool.

Please see what Saikou said, or ask him for more clarification on Doremy. He was behind the upgrade, after all. Not me.

Furthermore, BFR is a form of spatial manipulation, which Kirby hard resists.

Wait, Doremy's BFR is spatial manipulation now? It's not specified at all as to what it is, unless we want to accept every teleportation and portal creation instance as being "hard-resisted" by Kirby. Also, Kirby's spatial manipulation resistance comes from not getting cut in half by spatial attacks, not due to resisting BFR.

but why would BFR to the Lunar Capital matter? That's in the physical world, irrc

Its an Otherworld, a brane world that is separated from the main universe.

I've said it a thousand times: Mirror make that work in Kirby's favor. Hope Doremy enjoys all of her projectiles onto her.

And Doremy has force-fields. Your point?

Was in that revision. We all agreed, and the fact that I made that talk page (which btw, wasn't concluded), means that people can change their minds. Even Saikou himself said "potentially".

Nevermind that. Please see Saikou's wall if you want more clarification.

And unlike say, a Pokémon Trainer, it's far from her first move, bloodlust or no. She gets time stopped long before that.

1. Bloodlusted means that the character will only use the most efficient means to take down their opponent. Of course she'll summon.

Bloodlust refers to a state where a character is fighting without any inhibitions, and cares about nothing other than defeating the enemy.

2. A bad time stop at that, as I've heard you need to hit the opponent to build up power and then hit them again to time stop... He'd be better off just using possession, as that is a fool-proof method of putting Doremy down.

Anyways, since this argument is going around in circles at this point with over 300 replies, we'll see if anyone changes votes after the grace period ends, as most people have already agreed one side would win: 7-3-2, with Doremy leading by 4.
 
Transmutation isn't necessarily killing, in some cases it's more like forcing you to take a different form. Like, if you turn someone into a chicken they are alive until dinner you kill the chicken form. If you turn them into, say, a chair they should count as dead.
 
"Transmutation isn't necessarily killing, in some cases it's more like forcing you to take a different form. Like, if you turn someone into a chicken they are alive until dinner you kill the chicken form. If you turn them into, say, a chair they should count as dead."

Well yea, but in some cases it will count as death as you said. Although in this match it shouldnt rly matter.
 
I'm gonna go with Doremy for Flo's reasons, with mid to high difficulty.
 
>I concede on Kirby being able to travel inbetween universes, but Doremy has an instantaneous BFR that can send you all the way across universes.

How can the BFR be instantaneous with equal speed?

>Also, Kirby's spatial manipulation resistance comes from not getting cut in half by spatial attacks, not due to resisting BFR.

Some of the black holes he has resisted send him to another place.

>A bad time stop at that, as I've heard you need to hit the opponent to build up power and then hit them again to time stop... He'd be better off just using possession, as that is a fool-proof method of putting Doremy down.

Kirby uses this with his Team, with both using duplication at least one Kirby will use that. His strategy is one or more Kirbys stopping time and everyone attacking when that happens.
 
A move that has instantaneous effect isn't equalized in a speed equalized match. If it was light speed or whatnot yeah that's different. If the black hole he resisted sent him to another place he resisted the crushing force of the hole, not it's transportation. That just proves BFR works in him. Did you forget Doremy can duplicate as well and time stopping one of them isn't going to do much especially when she can just make another. Plus she's just as capable of locking him in time (Kaguya and Sakuya).
 
"How can the BFR be instantaneous with equal speed?"

Just like how teleportation is instantaneous even with equal speed. If it instantly transports you somewhere, then it's not effected by speed equalization. Especially if it's thought based.
 
Ok. I thought that instantaneous was a way of saying for her BFR, but

>Did you forget Doremy can duplicate as well and time stopping one of them isn't going to do much especially when she can just make another.

If Kirby stops time all of them will be stopped.
 
Kirby uses this with his Team, with both using duplication at least one Kirby will use that. His strategy is one or more Kirbys stopping time and everyone attacking when that happens.

I know about the duplication, but how does his timestop work? Is it like what I've heard of, is it like Homura's shield, or is it more like Dio's The World?
 
It's definitively pathetic in comparison to DIO's; all of his opponents have a meter which stops time when being completed, doing so is easy but it requires hitting any opponent at least twice with the same move, and that's at his best.
 
So it's all dependent on whether it hits or not. It shouldn't be too pressing to dodge with instantaneous bfr and teleportation. And considering this is a Touhou character, dodging is a natural instinct.
 
yeeaah........ this thread needs to end already. At least it's still not as bad as Sans vs Beerus. That was a nightmare.
 
@Megamangohan With both profiles incomplete this thread is a disaster. It might seem that Kirby has more haxes to win but many of them require to transmute his opponents, which may not kill Doremy. This working is being debated by Cal and there are also other things that will probably don't change the result of this. (I mean, sure Doremy's methods of killing Kirby are overkills but the transmutation thingy changes the whole thread.)
 
This thread has passed Grace Period for quite some time, is 350 replies long and the counter-arguments keep going in circles and keeps using debunked arguments. Closing this and proposing it to be added.
 
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