Doremy Sweet vs Kirby

[Eficiente]

Kirby has more victory methods, and resistances, changing my vote to him.

 

[Sarvaughan]

What methods are these? The only thing I see him doing to kill Doremy is possibly void suck. Doremy still has sleep inducement, cloning, bfr, erasure, and summoning. These summons can have the following: Time Stop, Absolute Death, Destruction of anything and everything, Boundary manipulation, Eternity/Instant manipulation, etc.

 

[Eficiente]

What methods are these? The only thing I see him doing to kill Doremy is possibly void suck.

Here's a list of things Kirby could do to win easily:

This.

 

[Eficiente]

When I mention Empathic Manipulation and Existence Erasure as methods to win for the second time you should have said how it wouldn't work, and I find hard to believe that you have ignored Cal's comments.

 

[Sarvaughan]

┬À Doremy can teleport ┬ÀSame as before, and with portals ┬À Duplication, summons, and bullet hell makes this hard to do ┬ÀDoremy can transform or bfr the suit out of Kirby's range ┬ÀIs a form of mind manipulation which Doremy is resistant to.Would be pointless with non corporeal mind that regenerates. Also Kirby would never do this as he's bloodlusted ┬ÀDoremy can make portals and has multi universal range ┬ÀDoremy would regenerate with her non corporeal mind or transform herself back or use Kaguya to make her unaffected to change ┬ÀLow Godly Regenerationn ┬ÀKoishi's subconscious manipulation and Nue's ability to mask the identity of people ┬ÀAgain, Regenerationn, eternity manipulation, and non corporeal mind means she doesn't need a body ┬ÀKaguya's ability works on foes too and Sakuya's time powers ┬ÀAgain, teleport and portals ┬ÀWould be useless against a dream world ruler

Plus Doremy's dream insight and Satori's mind reading lets her know all of Kirby's abilities

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Kirby can still steal her powers, btw. Copy (as in the ability, rather than the power called Copy Ability) and basic inhale (or Bubble for that matter)

 

[Sarvaughan]

┬À Doremy can teleport

┬ÀSame as before, and with portals

┬À Duplication, summons, and bullet hell makes this hard to do

┬ÀDoremy can transform or bfr the suit out of Kirby's range

┬ÀIs a form of mind manipulation which Doremy is resistant to; would be pointless with non corporeal mind that regenerates. Also Kirby would never do this as he's bloodlusted

┬ÀDoremy can make portals and has multi universal range

┬ÀDoremy would regenerate with her non corporeal mind or transform herself back or use Kaguya to make her unaffected to change

┬ÀLow Godly Regenerationn

┬ÀKoishi's subconscious manipulation and Nue's ability to mask the identity of people

┬ÀAgain, Regenerationn, eternity manipulation, and non corporeal mind means she doesn't need a body

┬ÀKaguya's ability works on foes too and Sakuya's time powers

┬ÀAgain, teleport and portals

┬ÀWould be useless against a dream world ruler

Plus Doremy's dream insight and Satori's mind reading lets her know all of Kirby's abilities

 

[Eficiente]

>Doremy can teleport

Literally not a problem for Kirby and it's not an op ability.

>Duplication, summons, and bullet hell makes this hard to do

Removing the nlf of his Duplication Kirby's seems to be better. bullet hell isn't a problem if you don't scale to a something close to Galaxy level.

>Doremy can transform or bfr the suit out if Kirby's range

??? and Kirby's armor aren't that important.

>Would be pointless with non corporeal mind that regenerates.

Cal's comments.

>Also Kirby would never do this as he's bloodlusted

"IIRC Bloodlusted is defined as simply going for the most effective means of victory" Fllflourine

>Doremy would regenerate with her non corporeal mind or transform herself back or use Kaguya to make her unaffected to change ┬ÀLow Godly Regenerationn

Cal's comments.

>Koishi's subconscious manipulation and Nue's ability to mask the identity of people ┬ÀAgain, Regenerationn, eternity manipulation, and non corporeal mind means she doesn't need a body ┬ÀKaguya's ability works on foes too and Sakuya's time powers

Summoning characters with more powers =/= Having those powers yourself, it's just Summoning.

>Plus Doremy's dream insight and Satori's mind reading lets Doremy know all of Kirby's abilities

One is already discussed of not being that effective and same as before with the other.

Everything else is fine, but it's not superior to Kirby's victory methods.

 

[Sarvaughan]

Kirby can still steal her powers, btw. Copy (as in the ability, rather than the power called Copy Ability) and basic inhale (or Bubble for that matter)

Doremy can still time stop him or use Kaguya's eternity manipulation. And Reisen causes Kirby to hallucinate everything and go insane.

 

[Sarvaughan]

Plus she can teleport from suck and use Nue to have Kirby not even know what Doremy is or what she can do.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Honestly, if she's never done this before, idk why it's on her profile... It's like Yhwach and Sternritters...at best...

 

[Eficiente]

Doremy can still time stop him or use Kaguya's eternity manipulation. And Reisen causes Kirby to hallucinate everything and go insane.

"Can move in frozen time" was also accepted but not implemented (and also Resistance to Mind Control, but I assume that isn't useful).

Again, winning via summoning someone to do something op is still a 1 method to win and doesn't remove the fact that Kirby has more.

 

[Sarvaughan]

┬ÀTeleporting out of your opponent's range is kind of op

┬ÀBullet hell kind of is a problem since Doremy is massively above baseline multi solar system level. And Kirby is barely multi solar system, much less galaxy

┬ÀThen why mention the suit

┬À Already explained how cal's argument is invalid with non corporeality

┬À Empathy manipulation is not the best means of winning and is a form of mind manipulation which Doremy is resistant to

┬À Never said she has the powers herself. Touhou characters can use their abilities on others. It's literally how they fight.

┬ÀWas never discussed how mind reading is ineffective. Kirby doesn't just think about food. He wouldn't even be able to fight or build space ships if he did.

Doremy has much more counters and ways to kill

 

[Eficiente]

>And Kirby is barely multi solar system, much less galaxy

Kirby one-shots her.

 

[Sarvaughan]

"Can move in frozen time" was also accepted but not implemented (and also Resistance to Mind Control, but I assume that isn't useful).

Again, winning via summoning someone to do something op is still a 1 method to win and doesn't remove the fact that Kirby has more.

If it's not listed I don't see it coming into play. And not noticing something subconsciously isn't mind control. When summoning includes bonus abilities of multiple characters it kind of does. With that Doremy has more ways of winning than Kirby especially since she counters most of his methods.

 

[Sarvaughan]

To be fair, I'll give Kirby his ability to move in time. That still doesn't stop absolute death manipulation, absolute destruction, boundary manipulation, or Sakuya summoning alternate timeline versions of herself added that to Doremy's clones.If you've ever seen ONE touhou character shooting danmaku in lunatic mode, much less dozens, you'd know how pressed Kirby would be simply trying to DODGE. And this is without considering the fact in a non spellcard battle, touhou characters can make bullet patterns that are undodgeable.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Kirby doesn't need to dodge sheen he can put up a she'd and not only are all the bullets reflected, but try home onto the original source

 

[Sarvaughan]

If Doremy is on the high end of muti solar system level as stated by Fllf and Kirby is barely baseline, how does he one shot? This is without mentioning her godly regen.

 

[Eficiente]

>Teleporting out of your opponent's range is kind of op

If you know the range of your opponent, yes, but ok.

>Bullet hell kind of is a problem since Doremy is massively above baseline multi solar system level. And Kirby is barely multi solar system, much less galaxy

Dark Nebula is still a thing.

>Already explained how cal's argument is invalid with non corporeality

Your last comment on that was "Non corporeality means any physical change done to the person will not affect them. Their existence is in a higher plane of form." followed by Cal saying "There are tier 2 non-corporeals that are affected by transmutation, my friend.". Also why would he mention Bubble Kirby if that were the case?

>Empathy manipulation is not the best means of winning

Is one of.

> and is a form of mind manipulation which Doremy is resistant to

By the description of her profile this doesn't seem to be the case.

Make a list of ways she would win.

>If it's not listed I don't see it coming into play.

So is Ghost Kirby.

>That still doesn't stop absolute death manipulation, absolute destruction, boundary manipulation, or Sakuya summoning alternate timeline versions of herself added that to Doremy's clones.If you've ever seen ONE touhou character shooting danmaku in lunatic mode, much less dozens, you'd know how pressed Kirby would be simply trying to DODGE. And this is without considering the fact in a non spellcard battle, touhou characters can make bullet patterns that are undodgeable.

Ghost Kirby, dura/Resistance to Existence Erasure, and also... Summoning other Kirbys kinda multiplys his methods of victory (removing summoning said Kirbys from that obviously).

>If Doremy is on the high end of muti solar system level as stated by Fllf and Kirby is barely baseline, how does he one shot?

Dark Nebula being half of a galaxy levels of 4-A.

 

[Sarvaughan]

Kirby doesn't need to dodge sheen he can put up a she'd and not only are all the bullets reflected, but try home onto the original source

Doremy has attack reflection too you know? And reflecting an attack that much above your ap end wouldn't work in the first place. And sakuya has the ability to erase danmaku anyway.

 

[Eficiente]

If you will keep downplaying Kirby's AP & dura do a thread about it to downgrade him.

 

[Sarvaughan]

Ghost Kirby wouldn't come into play anyway with Yuyuko's absolute death that you can't regenerate or revive from. And multiplying yourself vs an opponent who can do the same + summon other characters doesn't work out well.

 

[Sarvaughan]

I'm not the one downplaying Kirby. If you see the recent Kirby possible upgrade thread then you'll see what I mean

 

[Sarvaughan]

And if I do assume Kirby is stronger, ap doesn't mean anything against hand full of haxs that bypass your resistances and deletes the possibility of your ghost form.

 

[Eficiente]

I already mentioned the immunity to death manip, elaborate.

>And multiplying yourself vs an opponent who can do the same + summon other characters doesn't work out well.

??? I had to mention Kirby's Duplication methods since nobody has done it before, apparently it's better than her's. The point is still there.

>If you see the recent Kirby possible upgrade thread then you'll see what I mean

I participated there. What's more, a few months ago I made a thread talking about the inaccurate stuff of the verse, Dark Nebula included, and it was discussed to be valid. DDD's feat should have been removed at that time, but Cal is too busy to edit Kirby's profile.

The only things that happened in the thread you mentioned was that we make a rule against scaling Kirby to Magolor and we removed DDD's feat from his profile and Kirby's.

 

[Eficiente]

Again, make a list of her methods to win.

 

[Sarvaughan]

┬ÀGhost Kirby is immune to death manipulation. If yuyuko used her powers on Kirby his death would be absolute and he wouldn't be able to turn into ghost Kirby in the first place. And hax ways Doremy could kill kirby (look up the listed characters if needed):

1. Sleep inducement then kill

2. Duplicate and existence erase Kirby beyond his resistance

Summoning: 1. Yuyuko (absolute death)

2. Flandre (destruction)

3. Kaguya (instantaneous attacks and summoning)

4. Reisen (wave manipulation, illusions, and insanity)

5. Yukari (nough said)

6. Hecatia (ap destroy Kirby)

7. Shinki or any other pc98 character (same as above,but may not work since in a different canon, not sure)

8. Remilia (fate manipulation)

9. Sakuya (time erasure)

10.Suika (density manipulation)

 

[ALRF]

Does she do that in character?

******* hell forgot bloodlusted ignore this shit

 

[Eficiente]

Excellent. I will not argue against her existence erase being beyond Kirby's resistance to it but her Duplication seems to be counter by Kirby's, and if we don't take death via op Summoning as 1 method then those of Kirby are increased to what the other Kirbys can do as well, even if that means having repeated methods. How many characters she can summon in battle? If she can just summon everyone at the same time then that's a different story.

 

[Sarvaughan]

With no spellcard rules, that honestly could become nlf. I just WANT to say (to try to be fair) she'll do as many as we said she could duplicate, which is six. We can limit it if it's totally necessary. But I don't really think it would change the outcome too much.

 

[Eficiente]

Same amount as Kirby without a Replica, so we can ignore this factor.

 

[Sarvaughan]

Even with number equalized that doesn't change how there are now six characters who hax obliterates Kirby. And only one summon is needed as Hecatia overkill one shots Kirby

 

[Eficiente]

I'll wait for Cal to see if Kirby's transmutation hax and others really don't work with Doremy as that would change everything.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Only came because of a namedrop. Dude, I unfollowed a while ago. I do think Transmutation would work, but that's because well...it normally does.

Also, if she never did that summoning before, I'll make a talk page on her wall.

 

[Sarvaughan]

I still say that physical transmutation would work on Doremy just that it wouldn't be effective as non corporeality ignores needing a body. It even says on its page that the only way to kill a non corporeal being is high reality warping or conceptual destruction. None of which Kirby has. MAYBE void could count as conceptual destruction but not unless its stated for Kirby. And for summoning I think it's valid. Since she can summon any part of a dream physically, it should include the dreamer themself in that dream too.

Also we should REALLY restrict Doremy's summoning now that I think about it. In a bloodlusted battle Kirby gets stomped as it would quickly become a battle of Kirby vs Doremy and multiple universe busters with Hecatia and others of her tier. It should be restricted to where Doremy can't summon above her and Kirby's tier.

 

[Sarvaughan]

..... I mean if it's fine with everyone, then this might as well be an auto win for Doremy. Which is why I say there needs to be a tier restriction.

But with all that said I still vote Doremy for non corporeality, hax characters summon and erasure beyond Kirby's resistance.

 

[Kirby71]

I still say that physical transmutation would work on Doremy just that it wouldn't be effective as non corporeality ignores needing a body. It even says on its page that the only way to kill a non corporeal being is high reality warping or conceptual destruction. None of which Kirby has. MAYBE void could count as conceptual destruction but not unless its stated for Kirby. And for summoning I think it's valid. Since she can summon any part of a dream physically, it should include the dreamer themself in that dream too.
Also we should REALLY restrict Doremy's summoning now that I think about it. In a bloodlusted battle Kirby gets stomped as it would quickly become a battle of Kirby vs Doremy and multiple universe busters with Hecatia and others of her tier. It should be restricted to where Doremy can't summon above her and Kirby's tier.

>The only way to kill non-corporeal being is high reality warping or conceptual destruction.

Fighting a non-corporeal being is a normal thing in Kirby

>MAYBE void could count as conceptual destruction but not unless its stated for Kirby.

NLF everywhere.

 

[Sarvaughan]

┬À Kirby fights ghost, who only have physical non corporeality which can be dealt with easily for him. And non of said characters have god Regenerationn.

┬À Please explain how Kirby not having any the ways listed on the page to beat mental non corporeality is a NLF

 

[Eficiente]

Wat

 

[Sarvaughan]

Wat

What's wrong?