Doom Eternal - The Ancient Gods - Part Two CRT (Spoilers Ahead)

[Axxtentacle]

Doesn’t really matter? He started off at tier 9 and got stronger to the point of no-selling a tier 7. That’s still a massive jump nonetheless.

When that said person lifts the same amount of weights to go from 7-C to 7-B why would those same weights put him from 7-B to 2-B?

It doesn’t matter?? He went from not being damaged by a tier 7 to fighting a tier 2 and winning.

 

[DTG499]

Doesn’t really matter? He started off at tier 9 and got stronger to the point of no-selling a tier 7. That’s still a massive jump nonetheless

That’s because he received sentinel training, some very softener and better than what he had before.

It doesn’t matter?? He went from not being damaged by a tier 7 to fighting a tier 2 and winning

You keep saying it doesn’t matter but it absolutely does because we need this to be CRT proof, it’s not there yet. I rushed a tier 6 rating for doomguy last time thinking it didn’t need to be any more air tight and it got taken down. You think you are working for the doom upgrade but you are actively working against it because of your unneeded resistance to what we are trying to do here.

You cant use what the feat is try and explain how he did it. That’s like asking a body builder how he was able to bench 300 and him telling you that he just moved up and down. Your argument is self defeating.

 

[Axxtentacle]

That’s because he received sentinel training, some very softener and better than what he had before.

The same sentinels that are tier 8-C :hmm:

You keep saying it doesn’t matter but it absolutely does because we need this to be CRT proof, it’s not there yet. I rushed a tier 6 rating for doomguy last time thinking it didn’t need to be any more air tight and it got taken down. You think you are working for the doom upgrade but you are actively working against it because of your unneeded resistance to what we are trying to do here.

You cant use what the feat is try and explain how he did it. That’s like asking a body builder how he was able to bench 300 and him telling you that he just moved up and down. Your argument is self defeating.

It literally doesn’t matter how he did it. It’s not self defeating. How’d he do it? He gets stronger. We don’t need a method for how he got stronger from RPL, we just know he did. I don’t see what’s so bad about that. He got unquantifiably stronger from tier 7 and killed a tier 2. He got unquantifiably stronger from tier 8/9 and killed a tier 7. It’s not that hard.

Are we going to scale the old icon of sin to the current icon of sin? Then downscale the Doomguy’s weapons and physicals to low 2-C because of that? There’s no indication the current Icon is any physically stronger, and it was alive longer. It would logically be that strong, right?

The Icon does not scale to something that didn’t happen yet.

 

[DTG499]

The same sentinels that are tier 8-C :hmm:

Turns out we were both wrong doomguy became 8-C from the training not 7-C.

It literally doesn’t matter how he did it. It’s not self defeating

The refusal to go into further detail with Doomguy’s power creep is a very bad idea because there are a lot of people on this wiki who are in favor for downgrading doom. Not just weekly. You keep saying it doesn’t matter over and over again with out elaborating any further than that.

He got unquantifiably stronger from tier 8/9 and killed a tier 7. It’s not that hard.

I know that’s what happened, everybody knows that. I’m trying to increase the detail of those facts so we it can become far more consistent.

Then downscale the Doomguy’s weapons and physicals to low 2-C because of that? There’s no indication the current Icon is any physically stronger, and it was alive longer. It would logically be that strong, right?

The Icon does not scale to something that didn’t happen yet

Hugo said doomguy empowers his weapons in a stream. So yes. Before you say it, no we aren’t going to scale the regular demons to his guns. Just like we don’t scale endgame Dragonborn to the bear that killed him. Yes we do actually because we have on unified power source for demons, so any low 2-C feats that tie back to the icons argent energy would scale to him.

It doesn’t matter if it didn’t happen it was stated that it was, that’s all we need, that’s why we have low 2-C listed on the icon’s profile. Yes I’m aware the profile doesn’t scale it to his physicals but it not happening didn’t stop it from being listed. A statement is all we need.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Turns out we were both wrong doomguy became 8-C from the training not 7-C.

Yeah.. which he then got unquantifiably stronger and got a tier 7 feat. Same situation here except with tier 2.

The refusal to go into further detail with Doomguy’s power creep is a very bad idea because there are a lot of people on this wiki who are in favor for downgrading doom. Not just weekly. You keep saying it doesn’t matter over and over again with out elaborating any further than that.

Because there IS no further elaboration to be had.

I know that’s what happened, everybody knows that. I’m trying to increase the detail of those facts so we it can become far more consistent.

But there isn’t anything.

Hugo said doomguy empowers his weapons in a stream. So yes. Before you say it, no we aren’t going to scale the regular demons to his guns. Just like we don’t scale endgame Dragonborn to the bear that killed him. Yes we do actually because we have on unified power source for demons, so any low 2-C feats that tie back to the icons argent energy would scale to him.

So... the original Doomguy from DOOM 2 is low 2-C. Despite having to dodge attacks from normal demons. Guess everyone and their mothers are low 2-C now! Don’t forget the Sentinels in there too.

It doesn’t matter if it didn’t happen it was stated that it was, that’s all we need, that’s why we have low 2-C listed on the icon’s profile. Yes I’m aware the profile doesn’t scale it to his physicals but it not happening didn’t stop it from being listed. A statement is all we need.

It was stated that it was GOING TO HAPPEN. Not that it is ACTIVELY HAPPENING. Big difference there.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think the supposed almighty multiversal guy being some dude in a mech suit is extremely funny.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I still think it wasn't the best choice tho, his design and the fight could have been better

 

[Axxtentacle]

Should Doomguy's speed for the new key have an "at least" since we know he got a lot stronger?

 

[Jared1111]

They explained that they had to rush out the final expansion because of the One Year Pass, that and COVID forced them to work from home and caused time and budget restrictions. He was supposed to be far more grand and epic, like the final boss of Dusk or Turok 3.

Hell, even a 1v1 death match final boss like in Quake 3.

Damn virus ruining my video games.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Should Doomguy's speed for the new key have an "at least" since we know he got a lot stronger?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

no indication of speed increase. Strength ≠ speed

 

[Axxtentacle]

no indication of speed increase. Strength ≠ speed

Ok.

I'm assuming it'd be fine to make the changes now?

 

[Cyberblader90]

i think so

 

[Jared1111]

Yeah I’d say go ahead, we’ll address the Icon of Sin later

 

[Axxtentacle]

Ok. Does anyone have a list of Powers & Abilities that the new key should get?

 

[watstha248]

Hey guys:

Around the first minute, the sky and ambiance changes from blue to brownish. Would this count as the Icon starting to damage our reality? The next arena goes back to the blueish color but gradually gets a bit more chaotic until the Icon dies and suddenly the rest of Hell´s influence (Pentagrams on the Earth´s surface which were comprised of lava pits, sky tentacles and floating buildings) vanishes.

I think I should bring this up as well, because the second dlc shows us that Earth was pretty much free of demonic influence, with clear water, vegetation growing over petrified Hell flesh, etc. which is in tune with the ending of the base game, but during the second phase of Davoth´s fight, it goes back to be heavily invaded, with lava pits, chaotic skies, sky tentacles, etc. Would this count as Davoth bending reality? Especially since he´s the one who transported us there in the first place?

I´ve been trying to ask this to Hugo on the streams, because I don´t want to state anything, just provide the small tidbits that I notice to help a bit.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Eh? I feel like that doesn't mean that the Icon would scale to destroying the universe. Since well, we still explitictly see it punch buildings and they don't break.

 

[watstha248]

Eh? I feel like that doesn't mean that the Icon would scale to destroying the universe. Since well, we still explitictly see it punch buildings and they don't break.

No, I was referring to the process of breaking down space time around the planet that would eventually create the black hole.

Think it was the beginning stage?

 

[Axxtentacle]

No, I was referring to the process of breaking down space time around the planet that would eventually create the black hole.

Think it was the beginning stage?

Oh. Yeah. It is just the beginning stage.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Jumping from 7-B to low 2-C to 2-B is better than a flat out jump from 7-B to 2-B. If we can make things more air tight we should absolutely do it.

it really isn't man
there is still an infinite distance between the two no matter how you spin it

 

[DTG499]

Yeah.. which he then got unquantifiably stronger and got a tier 7 feat. Same situation here except with tier 2.

No. A 9-A going to an 8-C makes perfect sense. When doomguy came out of the divinty machine he was 7-C then he proceeded to absorb demons and use his RPL for billions of years and then proceeded to become 7-B. Then he went through the same process that made him go from 7-C to 7-B and used it to go from 7-B to 2-B, that is the issue.

Because there IS no further elaboration to be had.
But there isn’t anything.

We need to put more detail on how he got to this point or we are at risk of a downgrade for doomguy. Quit being lazy about this.

So... the original Doomguy from DOOM 2 is low 2-C. Despite having to dodge attacks from normal demons. Guess everyone and their mothers are low 2-C now! Don’t forget the Sentinels in there too.

Not what I said at all, not even close to what implied. I even tried my best to make it clear that is the exact opposite of what I said.

It was stated that it was GOING TO HAPPEN. Not that it is ACTIVELY HAPPENING. Big difference there.

How is it different when the icon previously did the same thing before and the statement is that he has the ability to do it.

 

[DTG499]

You need to slow down and read my comments more throughly. Because you are misinterpreting what I type or flat out just saying I said the opposite.

Remember how you started an argument with me when I said right from the start that I agree with saying his power increase was because of his RPL and absorption. But you didn’t read that part so you went on a 2 hour rant.

 

[DTG499]

it really isn't man
there is still an infinite distance between the two no matter how you spin it

Well 7-B to 2-A is two infinite gaps. 7-C to low 2-C to 2-A is just one to one. It is way better

 

[watstha248]

How is it different when the icon previously did the same thing before and the statement is that he has the ability to do it.

This is why I was asking if the change in the environment during his boss fight counted as him starting said process.

 

[DTG499]

Yeah it could

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Why are you arguing how a 7-C can become a 2-B within a short amount of time? Goku went from 4-B to 3-A in a single transformation. Tons of characters make insane jumps in power within really short amounts of time. It's not uncommon.

 

[DTG499]

Why are you arguing how a 7-C can become a 2-B within a short amount of time? Goku went from 4-B to 3-A in a single transformation. Tons of characters make insane jumps in power within really short amounts of time. It's not uncommon.

We have reasoning for how he made that jump, it was the super Saiyan god ritual. Goku didn’t just do the same exact type of training he did for whole series and become a 3-A. There was a distinct change. I’m saying we need to define that for doomguy.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Can we just cut this shit out, wrap this CRT up and move on to the next planned CRT please? This isn't at all necessary and is a complete waste of time.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

@DTG499 While your concerns are absolutely valid and I agree with them...also agree with Dante and Cyber....but we should discuss that in another thread....let this one finish.

 

[DTG499]

Can we just cut this shit out, wrap this CRT up and move on to the next planned CRT please? This isn't at all necessary and is a complete waste of time.

Last time I did that doomguy got downgraded. I’ve seen what happens when we don’t patch up the cracks.

 

[DTG499]

Sure I’ll drop it. But be ready for the downgrade CRT

 

[Axxtentacle]

Patch up the cracks with literally anything else lmao

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still think Ovens is making sense here; also I mentioned on multiple threads the the policy on outliers should less to do with number of feats or big gaps, and more to do with the contextual evidence of each and every feat. And they mostly exist to avoid scaling an overwhelming chunk of the verse as dependent on one feat. If the premise of the character is they're always constantly getting stronger and stronger with each and every fight they do, then it's not too controversial for their strongest keys to scale from their strongest feats.

And I can see why people are skeptical or; as it is iffy for First Person Shooter verses to have protagonists stronger than Tier 9/8. But Doom, Borderlands, and Destiny are exceptions given that they tend to have RPG like plots and stuff. And Doomguy's own bare hands are stronger than all his guns, pretty much like Spawn or Shadow the Hedgehog.

 

[DTG499]

Patch up the cracks with literally anything else lmao

Go back and read what I said caps-lock Carl

 

[Axxtentacle]

Because the Icon still does not scale. There being a plothole doesn't mean the scaling and feats are wrong. Can you please not turn this into the old DOOM revisions and draw it out for 10+ pages?

 

[DTG499]

If the premise of the character is they're always constantly getting stronger and stronger with each and every fight they do, then it's not too controversial for their strongest keys to scale from their strongest feats.

I agree with that but there still lacks a defined pivotal factor for his growing power to change in such a rapid pace.

And Doomguy's own bare hands are stronger than all his guns

I think Hugo said in a stream that he empowers his guns.

 

[DTG499]

Because the Icon still does not scale. There being a plothole doesn't mean the scaling and feats are wrong. Can you please not turn this into the old DOOM revisions and draw it out for 10+ pages?

You went in a circle, read it again.

 

[Shmooply]

Because the Icon still does not scale. There being a plothole doesn't mean the scaling and feats are wrong. Can you please not turn this into the old DOOM revisions and draw it out for 10+ pages?

Oh no, we're actually reaching ten pages.

 

[DTG499]

Hey I said I was gonna drop it but he decided to keep going. I’ll go to 20 pages if he wants to.

 

[Axxtentacle]

You went in a circle, read it again.

I didn't go in a circle...