DMC PoC continued

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

The arguments for adding to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence Souls (9-D): Pinnacle of Combat has a lore info in a loading screen regarding how souls function and how they're supposed to be a 9-D form from a higher dimension beyond the eightfold path.

High Godly regen for strong demons: Another PoC lore info regarding demons being able to restore their souls, names, and bodies as long as they persist. And some other random feats like Nelo Angelo regenerating from his entire body vanishing with an assumption that Dante couldn't see his soul therefore he destroyed it but vergil came back after 10 years, and Mundus being destroyed but coming back in DMC1.

Arguments against being added to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence for Souls (9-D): Souls being portrayed like this is severely inconsistent for the series given in the mainline games souls are shown to be the devil arms Dante uses throughout the games. And this is a thing for literally every single devil arm but they're never shown or portrayed to be from a higher dimensional source as normal people can easily interact with them given Dante sells his weapons to random people and these people who lack natural magic in the series can just interact with these supposed higher dimensional souls.

High Godly regen for strong demons: It's not consistent with the mainline games given you have numerous showings of demons dying when their soul is destroyed, such as Nightmare in DMC 1, Griffon in DMC 1, Nightmare Griffon and Shadow in DMC 5, Dante despite being a strong demon is getting his soul sucked away by the Neo Generator in DMC 3 to which the game shows it being a threat while Dante is in Devil Trigger state, yet he still dies despite being able to channel his DT all because his soul is removed from his body.

Here's the rest of the abilities being argued in the previous thread which was closed thanks to the derailment.

Also refer to Tony's comment above since he also has his own arguments on souls and HDE stuff. Other than that this should be the entire argument in the CRT for both sides.

@SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @SamanPatou

What do you think about this? I personally think that Glassman's arguments against High-Godly Regeneration and HDE seem more reliable.

 

[KLOL506]

That doesn't seem like anywhere near sufficiently solid evidence for such an extreme rating as High-Godly Regeneration, "just" Mid-Godly in itself.

Basically Demon Souls in DMC aren't like normal souls, they're conceptual in nature, Souls are a container of a Demon's name, mind, memories and information. Name being the most important content in the container as DMC3 establishes a Demon's name to be its power)

In DMC, losing your physical body is Low-Godly, and regenerating from losing any one of the container's content- either name, mind, memory or information is Mid-Godly, since the contents are of the same level of abstract and are just as abstract as the container itself (I.e. the soul) AFAIK. That's what they're currently rated as (It was done in another CRT long ago unrelated to PoC). Which Glass doesn't have a problem with.

However, by the PoC scan's logic, if the demons lose their souls, it'd effectively be destroying all aspects of their existence, and regenerating from having all your aspects of existence wiped out is High-Godly. And the PoC scan says Demons can regenerate from that. Which Glass does have a problem with, as he reasons that demons have never been able to survive having the container i.e. the soul itself being busted which in turn would nuke all the contents within as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I don't think that we can make exceptions in our soul-regenerating rule though, unless the demons also regenerate from being completely erased from history or their completely defining underlying greater concepts. The justifying screencapture image that I saw also seemed too unspecific for my taste. It may just have been an ill-considered statement that does not fit with what is otherwise shown in the series.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay. I don't think that we can make exceptions in our soul-regenerating rule though, unless the demons also regenerate from being completely erased from history or their completely defining underlying greater concepts.

So is that a disagreement with High-Godly or is that a disagreement with Mid-Godly too? Because AFAIK the "erased from history/completely defining underlying greater concepts" part is exclusively kept for High-Godly.

Whereas Mid-Godly is body, mind and ordinary soul (AKA the esoteric stuff and not the conceptual/abstract stuff), the latter of which in DMC is handled by the "name" aspect, as was accepted in this CRT. Also the contents of the soul are also conceptual just like the soul itself (Name, memory, mind and information, they're all conceptual, Name being the most important), but High Godly requires you to survive all your concepts being nuked, no?

Also AFAIK being erased from all concepts or being erased at the conceptual level counts for High-Godly, and we make exceptions for verses that treat souls that way instead of treating them like normal esoteric materials that we widely know souls as.

The justifying screencapture image that I saw also seemed too unspecific for my taste. It may just have been an ill-considered statement that does not fit with what is otherwise shown in the series.

That's PoC for you. It loves being specific with its details because Chinese developers got their hands on it. Otherwise the series generally peaks out at Mid-Godly based on the definition above.

 

[Antvasima]

I only think that High-Godly seems exaggerated, and that it requires stronger evidence. I am personally fine with Mid-Godly.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I only think that High-Godly seems exaggerated, and that it requires stronger evidence. I am personally fine with Mid-Godly.

I don't see any problems. Body, mind, soul, concept..when everything is destroyed and regenerates...thats high godly.

The statement is exactly that... body, soul, mind, memory, information, name(type 1 Concept). This is not even mentioning Soul in DMC >= Type 1 Concepts and contain everything inside it that is not body...Name, Information, Mind, Memory.

This is blatant textbook statement for high godly...if this doesn't qualify then nothing on this site does. We might as well nuke high gidly regeneration off of this site entirely.

 

[KLOL506]

I only think that High-Godly seems exaggerated, and that it requires stronger evidence. I am personally fine with Mid-Godly.

But DMC is already Mid-Godly without needing the destruction of the DMC soul tho.

Currently DMC demons have Mid-Godly regen via being able to come back from having their Names radically altered or destroyed, and their name is conceptual, as DMC3 itself states that a Demon's Name is its power, and the name is tied to the soul, despite the alteration/destruction of the name not necessarily equating to the soul being harmed in anyway. NVM, They actually come back from their soul, which is conceptual.

Basically, Souls in DMC are conceptual, so are its contents: The Name, the Mind, the Memory and the Information (They are all conceptual as well). Name is the most important content inside the soul and is tied to the soul due to the whole "Demon's name is its power" thing, which is why DMC Demons right now already have Mid-Godly regen. You don't seem to have a problem with this, do you? NVM, I got it wrong, the demons can survive without a name, but they die without their conceptual soul.

Generally destruction of all the underlying greater concepts responsible for your existence equates to High-Godly, destroying the soul in DMC essentially does exactly that: destroy all the concepts responsible for your existence, since the DMC Soul itself is conceptual and so are its contents (The Name, the Mind, the Memory and the Information) responsible for a Demon's existence.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Name is the most important content inside the soul and is tied to the soul due to the whole "Demon's name is its power" thing

Power and existence...or Truth as its also called.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Maybe. It seems too easy to destroy them to remotely qualify for high-godly though, and the displayed evidence seems flimsy and imprecise at best.

Which staff members think what so far here?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

It seems too easy to destroy them to remotely qualofy for high-godly

Eehhh? How did you deduce that? That doesn't have any logic.

 

[KLOL506]

Hmm. Maybe. It seems too easy to destroy them to remotely qualify for high-godly though, and the displayed evidence seems flimsy and imprecise at best.

What about the current justifications we use for Mid-Godly tho? What about those?

But DMC is already Mid-Godly without needing the destruction of the DMC soul tho.

Currently DMC demons have Mid-Godly regen via being able to come back from having their Names radically altered or destroyed, and their name is conceptual, as DMC3 itself states that a Demon's Name is its power, and the name is tied to the soul, despite the alteration/destruction of the name not necessarily equating to the soul being harmed in anyway.

Basically, Souls in DMC are conceptual, so are its contents: The Name, the Mind, the Memory and the Information (They are all conceptual as well). Name is the most important content inside the soul and is tied to the soul due to the whole "Demon's name is its power" thing, which is why DMC Demons right now already have Mid-Godly regen. You don't seem to have a problem with this, do you?

Ignore the above part. I got that wrong.

Which staff members think what so far here?

Glass is already fine with the Mid-Godly regen justifications above that we accepted in this CRT which is not at all related to the High-Godly proposals.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we need further input here. I still think that the text in the single scan that I was shown as validation for High-Godly seemed too unspecific and not as sufficiently strong evidence for such an extreme ability.

As I mentioned earlier, we need more staff input here, so a list of all the staff members who have commented here so far would be helpful.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, we need further input here. I still think that the text in the single scan that I was shown as validation for High-Godly seemed too unspecific and not as sufficiently strong evidence for such an extreme ability.

I am not asking about High-Godly here. I am asking whether our current justifications in use for Mid-Godly is fine to use as we accepted in this CRT.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Antvasima Just to clarify Ant, characters in Anima have Mid Godly for coming back when all that’s left is their soul, and in that series souls and concepts are the same thing. Shouldn’t the same apply here given a conceptual part of demon’s being is in their soul?

 

[Antvasima]

I think so, yes. It seems like we would use a loophole in our definitions otherwise. Also, extraordinary abilities require extraordinary evidence, and the single piece that we have available is likely too vague/unspecific.

 

[KLOL506]

I think so, yes. It seems like we would use a loophole in our definitions otherwise. Also, extraordinary abilities require extraordinary evidence, and the single piece that we have available is likely too vague/unspecific.

Again, the scan is for the High-Godly proposals.

I am asking whether the current justifications that we use for Mid-Godly DMC is fine or not.

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure. Like I said, we need further knowledgeable staff input.

Is somebody willing to write a list of the people who have helped out so far, or should I send out a more general notification again?

 

[KLOL506]

I am not sure. Like I said, we need further knowledgeable staff input.

Is somebody willing to write a list of the people who have helped out so far, or should I send out a more general notification again?

These are the current justifications for Mid-Godly regen that we use that was accepted in said CRT.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but that still doesn't help me out with what I asked for here.

 

[Theglassman12]

Just contact any other staff members who hasn’t commented. The more staff we get the faster we can finish this discussion since it’s been going on for over a month

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Antvasima]

The arguments for adding to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence Souls (9-D): Pinnacle of Combat has a lore info in a loading screen regarding how souls function and how they're supposed to be a 9-D form from a higher dimension beyond the eightfold path.

High Godly regen for strong demons: Another PoC lore info regarding demons being able to restore their souls, names, and bodies as long as they persist. And some other random feats like Nelo Angelo regenerating from his entire body vanishing with an assumption that Dante couldn't see his soul therefore he destroyed it but vergil came back after 10 years, and Mundus being destroyed but coming back in DMC1.

Arguments against being added to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence for Souls (9-D): Souls being portrayed like this is severely inconsistent for the series given in the mainline games souls are shown to be the devil arms Dante uses throughout the games. And this is a thing for literally every single devil arm but they're never shown or portrayed to be from a higher dimensional source as normal people can easily interact with them given Dante sells his weapons to random people and these people who lack natural magic in the series can just interact with these supposed higher dimensional souls.

High Godly regen for strong demons: It's not consistent with the mainline games given you have numerous showings of demons dying when their soul is destroyed, such as Nightmare in DMC 1, Griffon in DMC 1, Nightmare Griffon and Shadow in DMC 5, Dante despite being a strong demon is getting his soul sucked away by the Neo Generator in DMC 3 to which the game shows it being a threat while Dante is in Devil Trigger state, yet he still dies despite being able to channel his DT all because his soul is removed from his body.

Here's the rest of the abilities being argued in the previous thread which was closed thanks to the derailment.

Also refer to Tony's comment above since he also has his own arguments on souls and HDE stuff. Other than that this should be the entire argument in the CRT for both sides.

@DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @Dino_Ranger_Black @JustSomeWeirdo @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @QuasiYuri @The_Impress @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @UchihaSlayer96 @Confluctor

Would you be willing to help evaluate this please? We have been going in circles for a long time here.

 

[Damage3245]

I wouldn't consider myself knowledgeable on this. I doubt I can help get this resolved.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm unsure about High-Godly regeneration, as I have noted conceptual level stuff aren't things I have my head wrapped around. Though conceptual erasure does sound like High-Godly. But the HDE still sounds legit.

 

[KLOL506]

@DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @Dino_Ranger_Black @JustSomeWeirdo @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @QuasiYuri @The_Impress @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @UchihaSlayer96 @Confluctor

Would you be willing to help evaluate this please? We have been going in circles for a long time here.

LordGriffin is neutral. Elizhaa and Ultima agreed AFAIK.

Sir_Ovens seems to have disagreements, but this was before we confirmed that 1-C AP was not being proposed to begin with, only HDE.

And Moritzva said that she had issues with the 1-C stuff (But that's been debunked since we're not proposing 1-C AP, only HDE) and that there were strong grounds for accepting High-Godly regen based on Dienomite's points.

 

[Theglassman12]

The arguments for adding to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence Souls (9-D): Pinnacle of Combat has a lore info in a loading screen regarding how souls function and how they're supposed to be a 9-D form from a higher dimension beyond the eightfold path.

High Godly regen for strong demons: Another PoC lore info regarding demons being able to restore their souls, names, and bodies as long as they persist. And some other random feats like Nelo Angelo regenerating from his entire body vanishing with an assumption that Dante couldn't see his soul therefore he destroyed it but vergil came back after 10 years, and Mundus being destroyed but coming back in DMC1.

Arguments against being added to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence for Souls (9-D): Souls being portrayed like this is severely inconsistent for the series given in the mainline games souls are shown to be the devil arms Dante uses throughout the games. And this is a thing for literally every single devil arm but they're never shown or portrayed to be from a higher dimensional source as normal people can easily interact with them given Dante sells his weapons to random people and these people who lack natural magic in the series can just interact with these supposed higher dimensional souls.

High Godly regen for strong demons: It's not consistent with the mainline games given you have numerous showings of demons dying when their soul is destroyed, such as Nightmare in DMC 1, Griffon in DMC 1, Nightmare Griffon and Shadow in DMC 5, Dante despite being a strong demon is getting his soul sucked away by the Neo Generator in DMC 3 to which the game shows it being a threat while Dante is in Devil Trigger state, yet he still dies despite being able to channel his DT all because his soul is removed from his body.

Here's the rest of the abilities being argued in the previous thread which was closed thanks to the derailment.

Also refer to Tony's comment above since he also has his own arguments on souls and HDE stuff. Other than that this should be the entire argument in the CRT for both sides.

This is my last comment, this thread is going nowhere and you people keep posting despite being wrong instead of letting Staff evaluate this shit.

I made a proposal in the sever based on the regeneration discussion here, basically normal demons get the regeneration proposed by the OP just fine, the twins and any hybrid between human and demon will only get High-Godly overtime in base (up to 10 years based on Nelo) and/or in Devil Trigger State as that's their true form and the true expression of their demonic power, the rest of the regen for them stays the same.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dmc-poc-continued.127739/post-4311768 in this post is the proposal for the soul hax and its scaling to tier 1

The rest of the hax seems uncontested and videos/scans have been linked accordingly in other comments iirc.

Everything here is the summary of the points in this CRT

 

[Confluctor]

Definitely against high godly myself. From the description, it doesn't seem like it. There is nothing that indicates Regen on that level.

Higher dimensional souls... If the verse has 9D cosmology, should work. Although the scan itself wouldn't be enough on its own. And also depends on how the verse treats higher Dimensions.

 

[Crabwhale]

I wouldn't consider myself knowledgeable on this. I doubt I can help get this resolved.

This is my stance as well. Sorry.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

I wouldn't consider myself knowledgeable on this. I doubt I can help get this resolved.

Same, this isn't my forte

 

[Starter_Pack]

Yeah, I don't think I can help with such high-level standards such as this.

Sorry.

 

[Vietthai96]

Sorry for invading a staff discussing thread, but as a person who participated in Conceptual Manipulation stuff revision with DontTalk. Conceptual type 3 regen now is not High Godly anymore, and from the look of it, each soul contain their personal concept, which is limited in scope itself, because they limited to personal soul. Thus those concept are type 3 by default, so regen from that is Mid Godly

 

[Theglassman12]

You need to ask permission to comment on a staff thread next time.

 

[LordGinSama]

Honestly I'd settle for a At Least Mid Godly, Likely higher.


I'm pretty sure that High Godly requires the total destruction of your own reality (basically having your entire Verse destroyed.), so this strikes me as a higher than baseline form of Mid-Godly. I'd even be willing to accept this as higher D Mid-Godly regen tbh.

This is a lot like the issues I ran into with my Trigun Regeneration CRT. The short summary was that instead of Mid-Godly being granted for Knives we decided to go with 4-D Low Godly, which is Infinitely higher than Baseline Low-Godly and would require 4-D Negation to bypass. So I think this is the same case more or less, but with the argument that a 9-D Negation and or range would require to bypass this. Although to be frank I'm not really sure if 9-D range is an actual thing or not.


By the way I'm pretty sure Ant doesn't have an issue with me commenting here.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Sorry for invading a staff discussing thread, but as a person who participated in Conceptual Manipulation stuff revision with DontTalk. Conceptual type 3 regen now is not High Godly anymore, and from the look of it, each soul contain their personal concept, which is limited in scope itself, because they limited to personal soul. Thus those concept are type 3 by default, so regen from that is Mid Godly

Thats all irrelevant. Range is irrelevant in determining the nature and form concepts.
Besides names are Type 1 because they are independent of reality.

And most importantly this subject is completely irrelevant here because it isn't the subject of discussion.

 

[Vietthai96]

You need to ask permission to comment on a staff thread next time.

Sorry, i just want to clarify some stuff, i also a fan of DMC series though.

Also there is another thing i want to say. There is some contradiction regarding soul regen stuff in the main series. Sparda was dead but not return, same with the Sparda in Beastheads reality, also many other individuality Demon like Arkham doesn't regen when dead. If we take PoC statement as literal, the only type of Demon that can regen is generic, fodder Demon we kill all days in the game

Thats all irrelevant. Range is irrelevant in determining the nature and form concepts.
Besides names are Type 1 because they are independent of reality.

Personal scope is not range, why are you even interpreted it as range? You need to prove that the concept in the soul govern reality as a whole, and it is not dependant on personal level. Here soul was stated to hold its information and concept, that is type 3 as each soul have it own personal information and concept which is type 3 in nature

 

[LordGinSama]

It also honestly might be a good idea to put this on hold since we're currently revising our concept Manipulation and information Manipulation pages.


I'll also be making a thread about our regeneration page for the Godly levels in the near future.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Also there is another thing i want to say. There is some contradiction regarding soul regen stuff in the main series. Sparda was dead but not return, same with the Sparda in Beastheads reality, also many other individuality Demon like Arkham doesn't regen when dead. If we take PoC statement as literal, the only type of Demon that can regen is generic, fodder Demon we kill all days in the game

The statement talks about regeneration not ressurection. The statestatement concerns living demons who have lost all states of existence. Demons don't die unless regen negged. So this is a non sequitur.

Personal scope is not range, why are you even interpreted it as range? You need to prove that the concept in the soul govern reality as a whole, and it is not dependant on personal level. Here soul was stated to hold its information and concept, that is type 3 as each soul have it own personal information and concept which is type 3 in nature

Yes it is. And again...make your own thread this not the topic of discussion.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

The currently accepted for DMC is Type 1, and this is no revision to change that. It's already complicated enough

 

[Vietthai96]

It also honestly might be a good idea to put this on hold since we're currently revising our concept Manipulation and information Manipulation pages.


I'll also be making a thread about our regeneration page for the Godly levels in the near future.

The revisin about Concept was already done a while ago, along with Information

The statement talks about regeneration not ressurection. The statestatement concerns living demons who have lost all states of existence. Demons don't die unless regen negged. So this is a non sequitur

Then who neg both Sparda's regen???

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Then who neg both Sparda's regen???

If we knew that..it wouldn't be a mystery among the fandom riddled with fan theories now would it?? We only concern ourselves with evidence at hand and known information or something that can deciphered out of it with other context.