Devil May Cry: Low 1-C

[Qawsedf234]

The entire structure was said to be infinite. Would you consider infinite universe as "2-dimensionally infinite but still universal-sized aka 93 billion light-years"?

I would consider it 3D infinite, not infinite in the 4th Dimension without further information.

don't have any idea why this situation is any simple as that. You want me to put the author at gunpoint and ask him: "Hey, tell me if this statement is talking about uncountable, continuous, infinity on higher dimensional scale"?

No, since that would be against the WoG rules /s

But for the thread, sometimes there's just not enough to meet our standards. I'm not saying that DMC doesn't, but that the light ray piece of evidence isn't a significant 5D justification.

Chaos Timeline is explicitly described as the space between universes which functions as a rift where the normal laws of space and time as we know do not apply. By its nature, it cannot be treated as part of a standard 4D universe as it is structurally distinct.

Functionally, it behaves as a fifth-dimensional axis along which universes are separated. Any movement or activity within it such as Helfilth who lives in there is stated to be wandering beyond time and space. Therefore, it is ontologically outside a single 4D spacetime.

What are the actual scans for Chaos Space. While the description is helpful, I also want to see what the source material says.

There is nothing qualitative to it.

If you read my comment, then you'd see I wasn't suggesting it was qualitative. I was correcting a user on what the word means on the site now and said it would be an quantitative difference.

He is implying it can be qualitative which is dedicated to 1-As.

I wasn't.

Lol, anyway Agnaa said to me that you don't need such explitcit statement since most fiction isn't this explicit.

I don't see where Agnaa's statement is relevant in this CRT. The FAQ is explicit here and, other than Chaos Space, I don't see a justification for it being 5D.

What direction to be precise?

I said "all directions" in my quote.

This doesn't tell me much. Can you provide the evidence that the space in question is talking about axis rather then Euclidean space?

You can read them here or here

 

[Thermor]

I would consider it 3D infinite, not infinite in the 4th Dimension without further information.

If it's not infinite, it doesn't count as significant? What about the structure being universe in size?

 

[Vietthai96]

I don't see where Agnaa's statement is relevant in this CRT. The FAQ is explicit here and, other than Chaos Space, I don't see a justification for it being 5D.

I mean, if the space is 5D, then you don't need an explicit statement like all direction/dimension/axis is significant, just the space being significant is enough

 

[Qawsedf234]

If it's not infinite, it doesn't count as significant? What about the structure being universe in size?

The issue we have with any tier above High 3-A is that we're dealing with arbitrary standards based on what amounts to be general vibes that tbe early power scaling community was built on.

Universe sized is used as the standard as that's the bare minimum, by having an endless containing is implying at least a countably infinite spatial size. The issue is, even if we know a space has a 4th axis, its difficult to assume that the axis is infinite without a solid foundation. Temporal snapshots will get you +1D, but just general statements lf the zone being infinite in sized hasn't been enough unless you can reasonably link them to every spatial axis.

mean, if the space is 5D, then you don't need an explicit statement like all direction/dimension/axis is significant, just the space being significant is enough

I know, and other than maybe Chaos Space, I don't see a qualifier that would make the space significant. It can do everything suggested with the light ray with a compacted fifth dimension.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I would consider it 3D infinite, not infinite in the 4th Dimension without further information.

4th dimension is time which is not what people usually refer to. We are only talking about space here, not time.

No, since that would be against the WoG rules /s

But for the thread, sometimes there's just not enough to meet our standards. I'm not saying that DMC doesn't, but that the light ray piece of evidence isn't a significant 5D justification.

But it does signify the higher dimensional status of the space that occupies all universes.

What are the actual scans for Chaos Space. While the description is helpful, I also want to see what the source material says.

Everything is available in the OP.

If you read my comment, then you'd see I wasn't suggesting it was qualitative. I was correcting a user on what the word means on the site now and said it would be an quantitative difference.

I don't even know the purpose of bringing that even. Felt quite odd to me.

I wasn't.

Fair.

I said "all directions" in my quote.

All direction doesn't have to mean axis. It can simply Euclidean since we are overcomplicating simple matters.

You can read them here or here

I don’t follow your reasoning. Your first scan explains how dimensions conceptually work, fine. Your second scan illustrates perceiving the top of a mountain from higher-dimensional perspectives. But nowhere does it prove that "directions" automatically correspond to physical axis in the sense that would limit the higher-dimensional space.

Let me put the issue for you here: Everything can be interpreted in different ways but common sense should prevail. The Demon World (or Chaos Timeline) is described as a space separating universes, preventing them from collapsing into each other and serving as a medium we can traverse. By its very nature, that makes it a 5D space regardless of whether the source explicitly maps every axis. Infinity along each dimension is implied because the space functions as an independent, unbounded structure.

It’s not asking for some "full-flesh infinity" in a pedantic sense, it’s basic reasoning. If a space exists to contain, separate and allow traversal of multiple universes, it must have a higher-dimensional structure and its axis must be unbounded to serve that purpose.

 

[Qawsedf234]

4th dimension is time which is not what people usually refer to. We are also talking about space here, not time.

Time on the wiki is treated as the Eternalism, or that time exists in both directions forever containing all series of events that have or can take place. This results in the baseline of that spatial area (like a universe) having an uncountable infinite number of iterations of itself, which to contain them all there must be an infinite sized 4th dimensional volume.

So while time is not a 4th spatial axis in most works, the result of a timestream will give a universe a 4th spatial axis on the wiki.

But it does signify the higher dimensional status of the space that occupies all universes.

It can be a higher dimensional axis while also being compacted. It's why superstring and bosonic string theory doesn't give a work a High 1-C/1-B rating on there own.

Everything is available in the OP.

Then it should be easy to repost them.

don't even know the purpose of bringing that even. Felt quite odd to me.

Alright? I was correcting terminology to avoid future confusion for that user.

I don’t follow your reasoning. Your first scan explains how dimensions conceptually work, fine. Your second scan illustrates perceiving the top of a mountain from higher-dimensional perspectives. But nowhere does it prove that "directions" automatically correspond to physical axes in the sense that would limit the higher-dimensional space.

You were asking for evidence of a valid higher axis, so I gave two examples from a work featuring a higher spatial axis and proof those axis work in a spatial fashion. The mountain is just showing that when the work is talking about the second dimension they're referring to geometry.

The Demon World (or Chaos Timeline) is described as a space separating universes, preventing them from collapsing into each other and serving as a medium we can traverse. By its very nature, that makes it a 5D space regardless of whether the source explicitly maps every axis. Infinity along each dimension is implied because the space functions as an independent, unbounded structure.

I never disputed that Chaos Time can get you 5D. I asked for scans of it and said the light ray quote isn't enough for a 5D rating.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

snip

What verse was these scan from again? I think I seen this somewhere before, kinda like World of Darkness.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What verse was these scan from again? I think I seen this somewhere before, kinda like World of Darkness.

Dungeons and Dragons. Iirc it was by a TES and WoD writer as well. He's just a Hilbert Space enjoyer.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Time on the wiki is treated as the Eternalism, or that time exists in both directions forever containing all series of events that have or can take place. This results in the baseline of that spatial area (like a universe) having an uncountable infinite number of iterations of itself, which to contain them all there must be an infinite sized 4th dimensional volume.

So while time is not a 4th spatial axis in most works, the result of a timestream will give a universe a 4th spatial axis on the wiki.

Remind me later that I need to clarify how hypertimeline works on the wiki and what I need to prove it. Perhaps I can ask your assistance in evaluation beforehand over it.

It can be a higher dimensional axis while also being compacted. It's why superstring and bosonic string theory doesn't give a work a High 1-C/1-B rating on there own.

Which is why I'm saying that Compactification makes no sense here at all when the entire bulk of space is stated to be infinite and meant to separate space-time continuums. I don't even know what else is there to prove that the space needs to be uncountably infinite? This method should work out by itself.

It's not that I'm against you or anyone but it's like... So many different opinions and instances are there that it's hard to keep track of what works and what not.

Then it should be easy to repost them.

Here you go:

What is a Chaos Timeline?​

Chaos Timeline is the "cracks" between worlds or realms of Underworld, a place we first seen during Vergil's chapter where he was teleported as a last escape attempt from a deadly attack of Demon Lord Pluto through an artifact called Broken Gear which has the powers to go between past and future and teleport you through alternate timelines.

Next time we see this place is when Dante meets a girl named Lily who possesses the ability to see the future. Together, they set off on a journey during which they encounter Broken Gear. Lily attempts to control its power but she is unable to withstand it and is accidentally transported into the Underworld.

Dante then followed her by traversing the portals Lily left behind through Broken Gear. Eventually, he finds her and Lily explains that they are now in a place known as the Chaos Timeline—a rift between worlds where the laws of space and time are different. In short, it functions as a 5-D interdimensional crossroad between universes. Within Chaos timeline, there is a section of it called "Nightmare Space". This is a space that is ruled by Demon Lord Helfilth whose description states that he is a spirit that is "wandering beyond time and space". Lastly, we also have Demon World and Human World treated as upper and lower realms respectively as a sort of supporting evidence which should seal the deal for any kind of doubts over its transcendent nature by now.

Since we have established a proper 5th dimensional space as well as implications of its transcendent nature to back it up without any single glimpse of being part of other space-times or realms. Now, I would like to discuss why it should rightfully be significant. In this particular scan, we are met with two worlds. These are called Light and Darkness or in better terms, Human and Demon World. There are two details to note here:

1. The Darkness (Demon World) was bluntly stated to be endless in its entirety, not that it expands endlessly. There is a difference between both ideas unless we start declaring infinite universe statement as finite from now on. The raws also says it's infinite Darkness.
2. The description particularly treats Human World as a line which is essentially the same as saying it's a "slice" as per FAQ mentioned above and thus, qualify it for a lower dimensional object in comparison as lines are fundamental for defining higher dimensions in geometry and mathematics.

With this in mind, I believe it is more than enough evidence to go on with. I have no reason to expand over it from here; that's literally as simple as you can go for this. Unless, we start applying semantics to it.

Here are few points to note before you make your judgement:

1. The chapter where different laws of space and time, Nightmare Space and Helfilth who lives in there was taken from called "Chaos Timeline" which is repeatedly occurred place throughout the story and Dante was traversing that specific place for the whole chapter.
2. The "wandering beyond space and time" part was taken place from a special mode where we were first introduced Helfilth in his nightmare space as a boss fight outside of the story. His description states that he is the master of dimensional rift and as said before, usually lives beyond time and space. Only such location that meets the description would be Chaos Timeline that takes place inside Underworld or for better terms, Chaos Timeline is the underworld itself.
3. It is currently accepted that the universes within Demon World (or Chaos Timeline for that matter) are full-fleshed space-times soo there's that fact.
4. There is also another place inside Demon World called Mundus' palace, a special dimension that exists outside the flow of time with Void Mundus from alternate timeline within that same palace was noted to exists freely from even the flow of time as well. If that accounts to something then I can give you that scan too.

Alright? I was correcting terminology to avoid future confusion for that user.

I'm just talking in general. It's most likely he doesn't know about standards well.

You were asking for evidence of a valid higher axis, so I gave two examples from a work featuring a higher spatial axis and proof those axis work in a spatial fashion. The mountain is just showing that when the work is talking about the second dimension they're referring to geometry.

Yes but where is the "direction" part? Moreover, what implies that it is infinite as a whole and is any different then what I'm arguing here? Dimensions exists everywhere that's not an issue however, not many fictional verses are that blunt as you just stated here:

Dungeons and Dragons. Iirc it was by a TES and WoD writer as well. He's just a Hilbert Space enjoyer.

I know both verses you mentioned and I have discussions on experts over it more often. The verse is meant to be more mathematical and abstract in nature so perhaps you might have vibes that it may be talking about real deal here but that hardly scratches the point I'm trying to make.

My point is that many verse that currently have Low 1-C are not that blunt. You need to understand that fact by now. I believe calling the bulk infinite should mean it is fully infinite under normal interpretation.

I never disputed that Chaos Time can get you 5D. I asked for scans of it and said the light ray quote isn't enough for a 5D rating.

The line of light was there to provide evidence of some sort of dimensional difference. You are fine to ignore that but the real point diverges up to significance which is where the usual nuisance lies at.

 

[Ommf_Deity]

So how is it going?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I think I might finally get what you were saying with the OP.

1. The Chaos Timeline contains the Low 2-C structures in the DW. (Insignificant 5-D)

2. The Chaos Timeline contains a celestial body of some kind. (Bigger than a planet, I think significant size requires more than that; this is just there to show some size)

3. The Demon World contains the Chaos Timeline. (5-D)

4. The Demon World is infinite.

Am I getting all this?

bump?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Remind me later that I need to clarify how hypertimeline works on the wiki and what I need to prove it. Perhaps I can ask your assistance in evaluation beforehand over it.

Are... you trying to argue for a hyper-timeline here?

Here you go:

Alright, so I see where you're getting at now.

So overall, this is my view:

• There are infinite areas within the Demon World
• The Chaos Timeline lets you go to different iterations of the Demon World areas that are still within the Demon World

So the totality of the Demon World I can see as being Low 1-C. As it's spatially large enough to contain (presumably) infinite iterations of an infinite number of fourth-dimensional realms while maintaining its own time axis.

The line of light was there to provide evidence of some sort of dimensional difference. You are fine to ignore that but the real point diverges up to significance which is where the usual nuisance lies at.

In no circumstance is the line of light enough for Low 1-C from what I've seen. It's just fundamentally not small enough to get there.

 

[Vietthai96]

The Chaos Timeline lets you go to different iterations of the Demon World areas that are still within the Demon World

From what i see, no, it is just another area of the Demon Realm (Underworld), just have different rule of time and space and is a crack of worlds, rift between world. That is all i can see from the scan, it is an alternate dimension within the Demon Realm

The OP argument is that
1. Chaos Timeline is rift between worlds, crack of worlds which can be accessed with portals so it must be a space/dimension that separate other 4D structures (worlds). Thus it is a 5D space
2. Demon Realm contains Chaos Timeline and other 4D worlds in it thus it is both the container and the separator that separate 4D worlds. Thus Demon Realm is 5D space as the Chaos Timelime which is 5D space, is a part of Demon Realm.
3. Demon Realm is stated to be infinite, and is 5D, so it is infinite 5D = Low 1-C

 

[Hellformer]

From what i see, no, it is just another area of the Demon Realm (Underworld), just have different rule of time and space and is a crack of worlds, rift between world. That is all i can see from the scan, it is an alternate dimension within the Demon Realm

The OP argument is that
1. Chaos Timeline is rift between worlds, crack of worlds which can be accessed with portals so it must be a space/dimension that separate other 4D structures (worlds). Thus it is a 5D space
2. Demon Realm contains Chaos Timeline and other 4D worlds in it thus it is both the container and the separator that separate 4D worlds. Thus Demon Realm is 5D space as the Chaos Timelime which is 5D space, is a part of Demon Realm.
3. Demon Realm is stated to be infinite, and is 5D, so it is infinite 5D = Low 1-C

You agree with the OP right (just a confirmation)?

 

[Vietthai96]

You agree with the OP right (just a confirmation)?

For now yeah though i disagree with the ray of light argument

Still i need to see where this discussion is going to

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

From what i see, no, it is just another area of the Demon Realm (Underworld), just have different rule of time and space and is a crack of worlds, rift between world. That is all i can see from the scan, it is an alternate dimension within the Demon Realm

The OP argument is that
1. Chaos Timeline is rift between worlds, crack of worlds which can be accessed with portals so it must be a space/dimension that separate other 4D structures (worlds). Thus it is a 5D space
2. Demon Realm contains Chaos Timeline and other 4D worlds in it thus it is both the container and the separator that separate 4D worlds. Thus Demon Realm is 5D space as the Chaos Timelime which is 5D space, is a part of Demon Realm.
3. Demon Realm is stated to be infinite, and is 5D, so it is infinite 5D = Low 1-C

I mean if Chaos space contains multiverses and itself is entirely contained within a finite space in a larger structure, that larger structure would be Low 1-C. As you have a finite within finite space-time going on.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

From what i see, no, it is just another area of the Demon Realm (Underworld), just have different rule of time and space and is a crack of worlds, rift between world. That is all i can see from the scan, it is an alternate dimension within the Demon Realm

The OP argument is that
1. Chaos Timeline is rift between worlds, crack of worlds which can be accessed with portals so it must be a space/dimension that separate other 4D structures (worlds). Thus it is a 5D space
2. Demon Realm contains Chaos Timeline and other 4D worlds in it thus it is both the container and the separator that separate 4D worlds. Thus Demon Realm is 5D space as the Chaos Timelime which is 5D space, is a part of Demon Realm.
3. Demon Realm is stated to be infinite, and is 5D, so it is infinite 5D = Low 1-C

For now yeah though i disagree with the ray of light argument

Still i need to see where this discussion is going to

Didn't agnaa point out this type of reasoning is going against the standards themselves? Also containing another insignificant and only technically 5-D thing isn't really grounds for the tier either since it still leads to exact same issues

 

[Vietthai96]

Didn't agnaa point out this type of reasoning is going against the standards themselves?

From what i see, Agnaa problem is Demon Realm simply being a container of worlds, and every 4D structure is separated by a 5D axis doesn't make DR a Low 1-C space. From his comment, i still don't know his stance on the argument that since the Demon Realm is infinite in size, can it make DR a Low 1-C structure. He did replied to my summarise and said it is insufficient but point me to the 2-A DR thread instead

Also containing another insignificant and only technically 5-D thing isn't really grounds for the tier either.

Idk about the exact standard for that, or other staff opinion, but imo if you can contain a 5D thing, insignificant or not, you must be 5D. So the issue go back to, is the structure only need to be significant in size to qualify for Low 1-C?. Or you need extreme specific statement such as all dimensions/axes are significant, the 5th axis/dimension of the space is significant, the space is significantly large in all its axes/directions, the space extend significantly large at the 5th direction/axis/dimension

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

From what i see, Agnaa problem is Demon Realm simply being a container of worlds, and every 4D structure is separated by a 5D axis doesn't make DR a Low 1-C space. From his comment, i still don't know his stance on the argument that since the Demon Realm is infinite in size, can it make DR a Low 1-C structure. He did replied to my summarise and said it is insufficient but point me to the 2-A DR thread instead

the 2-A thread also covered a possibly low 1-C rating afaik and he pretty much disagreed with that too

Idk about the exact standard for that, or other staff opinion, but if you can contain a 5D thing, insignificant or not, you must be 5D. So the issue go back to, is the structure only need to be significant in size to qualify for Low 1-C?. Or you need extreme specific statement such as all dimensions/axes are significant, the 5th axis/dimension of the space is significant, the space is significantly large in all its axes/directions, the space extend significantly large at the 5th direction/axis/dimension

complicated and idk if agnaa even wants to bother here to clarify more since he got caught up in something he didnt wanna go further on

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Again, this is what Qawsed said on the matter

I mean if Chaos space contains multiverses and itself is entirely contained within a finite space in a larger structure, that larger structure would be Low 1-C. As you have a finite within finite space-time going on.

My point is that a light ray isn't evidence for Low 1-C.

At this point it would be a matter of how one or another interprets stuff

 

[Vietthai96]

the 2-A thread also covered a possibly low 1-C rating afaik and he pretty much disagreed with that too

I don't exactly remember the argument for Low 1-C in that thread, but the 2-A iirc is because Demon Realm is infinite, it can also contains multiple Low 2-C worlds, so theoretically it must be able to contains infinite amount of these Low 2-C worlds.

The chaos timeline stuff wasn't in that thread if i'm not wrong

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I don't exactly remember the argument for Low 1-C in that thread, but the 2-A iirc is because Demon Realm is infinite, it can also contains multiple Low 2-C worlds, so theoretically it must be able to contains infinite amount of these Low 2-C worlds.

The chaos timeline stuff wasn't in that thread if i'm not wrong

yea i dont remember chaos timeline. but i very well might be misremembering on low 1-C part

 

[Random-Helper323]

The Chaos Timeline stuff is new. Never been raised before.

 

[Vietthai96]

At this point it would be a matter of how one or another interprets stuff

His interpretation is wrong, because Chaos Timeline isn't contain the multiverse. There is no proof for it at all, it is literally show in the OP to be another area of the Demon Realm, an alternate dimension

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Agree: @Planck69, @KingTempest, @Qawsedf234 (?)
Neutral: @DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree: @Vietthai96 @Agnaa (?)

 

[Vietthai96]

Agree: @Planck69, @KingTempest, @Qawsedf234 (?)
Neutral: @DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree: @Vietthai96 @Agnaa (?)

Qaw seem to think about hypertimeline stuff

I, Planck and KingTempest agreed with Low 1-C via Demon Realm being 5D space that contains and separates 4D worlds and is infinite

DDM is neutral yeah

Agnaa full-on disagree

 

[HelloThere1089]

Viet and Qaws both seem to agree but for different reasons. So there are 4 agrees and 1 disagrees. Let this god forsaken 12 page CRT be locked now. Unless some pages need to be changed, which doesn't seem to be proposed.

 

[Hecky2222]

Viet and Qaws both seem to agree but for different reasons. So there are 4 agrees and 1 disagrees. Let this god forsaken 12 page CRT be locked now. Unless some pages need to be changed, which doesn't seem to be proposed.

Qaws wasn't entirely clear at his position. so i doubt if he voted to agree or disagree there.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Qaws wasn't entirely clear at his position. so i doubt if he voted to agree or disagree there.

See his last reply here. He reviewed what Sonic sent him and said he can see low 1C DW.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Maybe ask both Vietthai and Qawsedf to clarify.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Maybe ask both Vietthai and Qawsedf to clarify.

Vietthai already gave clarification on his stance in his latest comment. Qawsedf seemed to as well but you can ask further ig.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Sorry I was busy. Tell me the current tally again? @Tony_di_bugalu, @Random-Helper323

 

[Random-Helper323]

Sorry I was busy. Tell me the current tally again? @Tony_di_bugalu, @Random-Helper323

Agree: Planck, KingTempest

Disagree: Agnaa

Not sure about Vietthai and Qawsedf.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Sorry I was busy. Tell me the current tally again? @Tony_di_bugalu, @Random-Helper323

If you don't mind me telling you:
Agree: @Vietthai96 @KingTempest @Planck69
Disagree: @Agnaa
Neutral: @DarkDragonMedeus
Uncertain: @Qawsedf234

 

[KLOL506]

Agree: Planck, KingTempest

Disagree: Agnaa

Not sure about Vietthai and Qawsedf.

Vietthai clarified in this comment he agreed with Low 1-C via Demon Realm being 5-D

 

[Ommf_Deity]

Agree: Planck, KingTempest

Disagree: Agnaa

Not sure about Vietthai and Qawsedf.

Vietthai said he agree, like multiple times

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Okay so Vietthai, Planck, KingTempest and seemingly Qaw agreed too.

Disagreement comes from Agnaa.

Neutral is DDM

 

[HelloThere1089]

Tbh regardless of Qawsedf vote (even tho it is much appreciated) the majority still seems to agree. And the grace is over so......

 

[KLOL506]

I personally would wait for some more votes and for Qawsedf to clarify his stance.

Ignoring Qaws's vote, I don't think we've ever let a Tier 1-related CRT pass on a mere 2 vote gap.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I personally would wait for some more votes and for Qawsedf to clarify his stance.

Ignoring Qaws's vote, I don't think we've ever let a Tier 1-related CRT pass on a mere 2 vote gap.

I'm tired after yesterday's discussion. It can be whatever at this point. I'll wait for more votes however.