Introduction
Shinza exist.
I decided to revise it.
This is the first CRT of the series of revisions to come.
Shinza Gods are 1-A.
I think they shouldn't.
Here's why.
Note: Besides the ones we already had, all of the translations you'll see here are provided by either
@Qliphoth_Bacikal in the official translation thread or in private and by
@TISSG7Redgrave in this same thread. Seriously, it was a huge number of scenes overall, translators are way too undervalued. Big thanks to them.
1-A current reasons
There are basically two main arguements for Taikyoku to be 1-A to begin with:
Taiji is the root of all things. "Physics" are mere Laws. Taiji is more than just random Laws, since if one became Taiji, all of creation would be affected by it. Because of this and the world showing higher dimensions, Taiji is 1-A.
Quoting the post itself:
Their laws being "unlimited expansion/overwrite" applies to simply any-D structures. Taikyoku is a force that allows users to paint over all there is or at least exist above and manipulate all existence, it doesn't matter how many "layers" are piled up. This is essentially showcased by Soujirou's attempt to slash Akuro and Yakou's attempt to block Ootake's attack. Taikyoku is something else."
While I'll answer the later part below, let's see what the thing about Taiji being more than "random Laws" and suchlike is. The original post had lots of discord links attached, but I'm lazy so I'll just link
the entire scene (in case timestamp doesn't work, it's at 36:30). While the whole scene gives a bit more context, I'll just go with what was actually used in the post.
"Of course, in this World, a near infinite number of Laws exist, it doesn't mean that each one of those can be called Taikyoku
In reality, cutlery carries a Law called "cutting", fire has a Law called "burning". In the case of the Law that exists while underwater, something like pulmonary respiration cannot happen. Such assorted Laws are mere physics.
What's important is scale, density. The denomination of the form the Law takes is, by standard, "universe", therefore, getting to become an independent World is Takyoku's definition.
It's not difficult talk at all. If the aforementioned Law that exists underwater were to change into Taikyoku, All of Creation's underwater areas would also be changed to comply.
My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku.
This Law is called a Colour, it's decision is a man's thought. What oneself longs for, what oneself would want to become. Such prayers and desires, called Cravings, become the driving force behind the genesis of Taikyoku."
Not every laws are Taiji. They mostly are mere physical phenomenons that just "happen". Taiji in different in that it's fueled by one's desire, a desire taking precedence over the world and disconnecting yourself from it. The power of Taiji is great enough to affect All of Creation.
First thing is that, while this is all cool, it doesn't hint "a conceptual or existential level" of transcendance. In fact it doesn't even talk about a transcendance factor. All that is said is that your law would take over all of creation and be disconnected to it. Anyone with good law manipulation and a range equating that of the setting could do the exact same. Of course Gudou Gods do have the fact that they are freed from the world's law and all even more, but nothing 1-A with that; and it wasn't used for the "upgrade" anyway.
Second one is that we already have similar explanations of the same phenomenon,
which is that of Be'riah. Briah/Creation Figment is, in essence, nothing but a downscaled version of your Emanation, Taiji. You have the rejection of laws, the fact that you aren't limited by physics, etc... And the Aziluth degree is basically seen as your Briah but boosted (with the Briah and Aziluth info log mentionning how Aziluth is like "your creation figment is now universal" for Hegemony).
Of course it's a simplification. Gods have abilities such as Legion that no Briah users can access. However, the basic idea of Taiji used here is the exact as the one used for Briah. The only difference is truly the range/power.
Why does it matters? Well, Shinza Gods are currently at their tier because they are supposed to meet the "Characters who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy realms or states that fully transcend infinitely-layered hierarchies and/or dimensional levels on a conceptual or existential level," criteria.
Problem here is that if it was the case, if one's emanation is conceptually above everything, it merely being downscaled wouldn't change a thing. Creation Figment still reject the entire world, even going against the laws of the actual god, albeit for a short time. Yet it wouldn't give any form of 1-A rating.
In both cases, it is a "mere rewrite" of pre-existing laws just like in the first point. Not a form of transcendance of your law, and absolutely not a 1-A one.
Throne being Chō-Jigen, which apparently refers to "Beyond-Dimensional"
If you check the meaning, while Chō-Jigen words are litteraly "Transcend/Super/Ultra/Hyper" and "Dimensions", it merely means Transdimensional. In fact, I think I never saw Chō Jigen (超次元) be used for anything remotely similar to 1-A.
https://www.wordsense.eu/超次元/
Which just means something higher than 3-D (which is why Solaris from Sonic isn't 1-A, or part of why Tenchi Muyo was downgraded).
https://www.wordsense.eu/transdimensional
Of course, if just refuting what was said in this post was enough, it wouldn't have passed. So let's go to the actual important part of this post. You can also consider this one as optionnal (or as a mere extention of the introduction) if it helps, since it's not really the main focus.
Evidences linking to 1-B / Higher Dimensionality
Tbh most if not all the evidences against 1-A can be summed in two word: Higher dimensions. They are a big part of why Shinza is at the tier it is, and hopefully, it is a term loved by the verse.
Gods higher dimensionnal nature
One of the most obvious case I can think of is that of Tenma Akuro, a Hadou God (pseudo one), is litteraly stated to be higher dimensional; with his scene being the evidence of dimensions having a Reality-Fiction difference.
なのに無傷 。 まったく無傷 。 薄皮一枚切り裂けない 。 それは紫織の 拳を受け止めたときと同様で 、 頑強さと言うより別位相の物理を目に したかのようだった
"And yet, he was unharmed. Completely unharmed. Not even a thin layer of skin was torn off. It was the same as when he received Shiori's fist, and it was as if I saw another phase of physics rather than stubbornness."
喩えるなら 、 絵の中でどれだけ猛火を描写しようと 、 それが現実の 人間を燃やせるわけがないのと同じ 。
To put it in another way, no matter how raging the fire is depicted in a painting, it can't burn a real person.
立っている場所がそもそも違うという断絶感。
A sense of disconnection, that the place where we are standing isn't the same to begin with.
そして 、 絵に現実は害せなくても 、 現実が絵を破壊することは容易 に出来る 。
And even if the picture can't harm the reality, reality can easily destroy the picture.
高次元から低次元への攻撃は 、 赤子の手を捻るよりも通しやすい 。
An attack from a higher dimension to a lower dimension is easier to get through than twisting a baby's hand.
I can see an arguement like "The difference between them is just referred like Higher-Dimensional/Lower-Dimensional difference, that doesn't have to mean they are bound by dimensions" being made
(can see it because someone already said this before).
The previous thread justified it as
"Interestingly, the difference between Soujirou and Akuro was actually called "Phase Difference" which, despite being visibly the same, is a gap much greater in scale compared to Dimensional Difference. This could also be simplified as "Taikyoku vs Non-Taikyoku difference".
Which could make sense, if you ignored the context. First thing Soujiro mentions about Akuto is how he has seen "another phase of physics rather than stubbornness", which clearly implies the charecter in question being higher dimensional, with it still being within physics, unlike what was argued in the thread which made them keep their rating.
There's also the fact that "phase" (位相) was actually used for the world or Yakou's dimensionnal dislocation/fault, hinting to the fact that it IS meant to indicate higher dimensionnal difference and making the idea of it being something else flat out wrong.
空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.
位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.
The following quote describing the difference between Higher and Lower dimension to explain what was happening there just further proves it.
Then you have others things pointing toward the higher dimensionnal nature.
Soujirou's Distortion
And the first of these is Soujiro's Unknown Distortion (which can even cut Tenmas) being stated to be Higher-Dimensional:
基本的な斬撃という水準を遥か超越した一閃。単純な威力や規模という意味ではなく、切断するという面においてより高次元の概念を帯一びているかのようだった。
A slash that goes far beyond the basic level of slashing. It was not simply in term of power and scales, but was more like a higher dimensionnal concept of cutting.
感じる波動は、純粋にただ斬るという一念のみ。
The only thing I feel is pure slashing.
あれは効く、絶対に断つ。詳しく説明はできそうもないが、この剣載はそういうものだと確信した。相手が天魔であろうと関係なく、両断する未来を幻視して、
It'll works, I will definitely cut it. I don't think I can explain it in detail, but I am convinced that this is the case. Imagine a future that cuts off, regardless of whether the opponent is a Tenma,"
If someone doubts the translations, Soujiro's page says roughly the same thing for these scans
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Soujirou_Mibu ("Unknown Distortion" part)
So in addition to Akuro being considered higher dimensional, a higher dimensionnal slash is considered to be able to harm even the Tenmas.
And since we talked about offense, let's talk about defense now.
Madara's dimensionnal barriers
To go further, Yakou was actually able to block attacks from not only one but overall 3 Tenmas (Morei, Sukuna, Ootake. There's a typo for the last one on his profile btw) with his dimensionnal fault/dislocation/call it how you want. It is something we even acknowledge on his profile
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yakou_Madara
And yes, in all the cases they "had their Taiji on"/was when they were actually using their Law, as you'll see in the scenes.
Morei's flames/Law instance
節操無しが。恥知らずめ。おまえに矜持はないというのか──
Honorless. Shameless. They had no pride in themselves--
ゆえに今直ぐ討たんと旋回する母禮に対し、夜行は牽制の術を放ちながらため息をついた。
Thus Yakou sighed while releasing a restraining technique against Morei (母禮), who turned around immediately.
変わらない不遜な笑みと、視線だけで焼却する魔の眼光が交差する。
That unchanging arrogant smile intersected with the demonic eyes that can incinerate in their line of sight.
「相も変わらずつれないな。いったい誰と戦っている？」
"This has not changed. Who are you fighting?"
「御身の相手は、この私だぞ母禮殿」
"Your opponent is me, Morei-dono."
「どけいッ！」
"Out of my way!!"
大喝と共に、雷と炎の剣が眼前にある物すべてを薙ぎ払っていく。
With a thunderous roar, the swords of lightning and fire reaped everything in her sight.
宙にある大気、僅かな塵芥、更には空間そのものさえも消滅してのけるほどの業火。
The atmosphere in the air, small amounts of dust, even space itself were being extinguished.
以前夜行が相対した時に勝負を決した攻撃に、勝るとも劣らないその連撃は――
The continuous attack was no less than the attack that decided the match against Yakou previously--
されど、もはや届かない。
But it no longer came.
空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.
位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.
「――──」
"---"
驚愕は止められたことではなかった。これらの背を押すアレの存在、それをいま確信したから….
Her astonishment did not stop there. She was certain that there was something behind them.
「一度見せながら殺し損ねたのは失敗だったな。御身らの法、すでに私には読めている」
"It was a mistake to not kill me after showing it once. Your Law (法) has already been read by me."
Sukuna + Ootake instance
両面の鬼が大地を揺るがし、三つ首の虎が死の息を吐く。
The two-sided Oni shook the earth, and the three-headed tiger let out a breath of death.
収束する波動に天地鳴動が引き起こされた。
The converging surge caused heaven and earth to shake.
攻撃の予備動作に生じる圧力、それのみで兵が次々と身体を潰され、ひしゃげて散る。
The pressure created by the preliminary movements of the attack was enough to crush the bodies of the soldiers one after another, causing them to crumble and scatter.
血の花が咲き乱れる中、随神相が見下ろす先は豆粒の如き二人の男。
In the midst of blooming blood, the Kamunagara (随神相) stared at the two men who looked like peas in a pod.
宿儺は四つの銃口でそれを狙い──
大獄は口蓋から暗い破滅の光を凝縮し──
Sukuna (宿儺) aimed their four muzzles at them--
Ootake (大獄) condenses the dark light of destruction from his palate--
遥か上空から見下ろした試験は傲慢の極みだろうか。否、これこそ鬼神。
Was this the arrogance of those who look down from above as a test? No, this was the Kishin (鬼神).
人の都合を欠片の解さず路傍の蟻よと踏み砕く、天空の頂きに腰掛ける者の特権なのだ。
This was the privilege of those who atop the heavens, they who do not care of the conveniences of others, crushing them like ants on a roadside.
巻き添えに弱卒の屍を撒き散らしながら迫る破壊光。
The light of destruction approached while scattering the corpse of weak soldiers in the way.
小国ならば滅亡必至の烈しき負の閃光を前に──
In the face of this negative flash of light, a small country would inevitably face extinction--
「笑止千万──侮りすぎだ」
"So preposterous--you underestimate us."
躱す必要一切無しと、応えたのは摩多羅夜行。
It was Yakou Madara who had responded without hesitation.
雅にかざした掌にて具現したのは時空の暇いとまによる障壁。
What was embodied in the palm of his hand that was held gracefully was a barrier of space-time.
随神相の一撃さえ、そよ風の如しと防ぎきった。
Even the blow of the Kamunagara can be repelled as if it were like a gentle breeze.
And a little Ootake one (although in this case it was also because of them having the same Colour so it's not as good of a feat as the two previous. Take it as a bonus).
かつて用いた次元断層による防御は、同種の波動により大獄の破滅を相殺した。
The defense of the dimensional dislocation (次元断層) used before offset the destruction of Ootake (大獄) with the same kind of surge (波動).
So we have dimensionnal fault/barrier/dislocation actually blocking Gods attacks, which support the idea of higher dimensionality for Gods in general and them being around something like 1-B, in opposition to what they currently are.
Miscellaneous stuff
Now there's others things supporting this, but small enough to all be in the same category.
-Continuing on Madara, there's the fact that you can't understand Taiji without reaching it, because you are faced with a geometric space that only those with divinity can understand which is even directly linked to Taiji, implying once again the Gods/Taiji relationship with dimensions (we also acknowledge it in Yakou's profile).
「行かなくては……夜行様の元に」
"I need to go...to Yakou-sama."
そう思い、一歩踏み出した途端に世界が一変した。
The world changed completely as soon as she thought of it and took the first step.
複雑に編まれた曼荼羅模様。
It changed into an intricately knitted mandala (曼荼羅) pattern.
圧倒的な、到達したもの以外の理解を拒む幾何学空間。
An overwhelming geometric space that prevents those from understanding it other than those who have reached it.
曰く太極。それは御前試合を終えた折、この視点に摘み上げられた記憶そのままの姿だった。
Taikyoku (太極), it was called. It was exactly as she recalled when she was taken from this perspective after the Gozenjiai was over.
いや、正確にはより完成度を増しているのだろう。
No, it was more precise to say that it had become more complete.
なぜなら龍水も感じている。この絵図、この曼荼羅、ここに必要なものは後一つしかないと、半ば呆然としながら直感し──
Ryuusui also felt it. This picture, this mandala, with an instinct she had while partially dazed, knew that there was one more thing she had to do--
-While it's considered outside of everything and all, the Twilight Beach is stated to
be a place with frozen time (the constant everlasting, unchanging etc... stuff coming from this too),
even being called "another temporal plane".
I'm mentionning this because
the beach is the singularity of the world of Foreknowledge. Meaning it would go against the idea of 1-A transcendance over all concepts and be more logic with everything above (I know that you can technically be 1-A and have time under the current system, but another evidence is never a bad thing).
-Last comes from Paradise Lost, with Angels and anything related such as Sin (which we scales directly to the Throne, the Abyss it is located in and the Sefirot)
being constantly stated to gain higher-dimensionnal power from it. Something we already accept since it is on their profiles (the explanations they have also are pretty neat, so you can take a look at them too). This also include Keter, realm of the Throne being called higher-dimensionnal as well as these higher dimensionnal powers being able to kill Gods in Lyle's case.
I could also include stuff like the hole to the Singularity being called a "dimensional hole" in K3 or the different levels of the Singularity being called different dimensions, but it would just be using the word again when I think that what's in the post is more than enough.
Conclusion
Overall, I think that Shinza Gods should be downgraded to something around 1-B (either thanks to Yakou's feats or the Singularity) because of the following points:
-The idea of "
Their laws being "unlimited expansion/overwrite" applies to simply any-D structures. Taikyoku is a force that allows users to paint over all there is or at least exist above and manipulate all existence, it doesn't matter how many "layers" are piled up." is law manipulation on the level on the setting, not a form of transcendance, and especially not an 1-A one.This is without considering the points below.
-The Throne being Chō Jigen (超次元) somehow meaning 1-A is wrong. It just means transdimensional, which apply to anything above the third dimension.
-Higher dimensionnal nature for the Gods
-Higher dimensionnal attack being able to hurt them
-Higher dimensionnal barrier blocking their attacks
-Godhood being linked to the comprehension of higher geometric space
-Minor evidences Singularity being called a temporal plane in Dies Irae or basically just being another higher dimension in ParaLost.
Basically, we put Shinza Gods, the Singularity and the Throne as 1-A because of being supposedly conceptually above all higher dimensions no matter how much, while in fact they are on a higher dimensionnal level themselves, and were both shown and stated to be countered or hurt by attacks of this nature.
Now let's see how it'll goes.
May it not be another 7 pages war.
