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Discord vs Joker (Ren Amamiya)
- Thread starter Angeltripper
- Start date
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Nope. Considered a "special ailment".YungManzi said:
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Why are we still arguing about this when Discord clearly doesn't have any, ya know, wincons?
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Absolutely.YungManzi said:
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Because the thread's still open. Therefore, people are gonna try and argue as much as they can in favor of their favorite character of the two.Lightbuster30 said:
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Discord can't affect abstracts. And if can't affect abstracts then none of his powers are doing anything period. End of story. There is no wincon.Multipize said:
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I cannot make a clear vote until We get more supporters on what bother can do so my vote is incon
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Bump
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this is too long so can someone give me the run down on what the arguments for both sides have been? obvs thats if you want. please and thank you
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People think this is a stomp beacause Discord can't interact with PersonasAllanShadow78 said:
Yet Joker has no resistance to BFR or Transmutation
Joker One-Shots with Death-Hax after most likely trying other spells and failing
Which would give discord said time to try teleporting or changing Joker's form to something incapable of using magic like your standard earth pony (could this not work probably)
He could still teleport him somewhere else out even out of the meta-verse.
Joker Charismas his way out.
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People think this is a stomp beacause Discord can't interact with Personas
Yet Joker has no resistance to BFR or Transmutation
Joker might have resistance to transmutation if that Rattled status ailments and its timer are anything to go by, but that sounds iffy. But yeah, absolutely no resistance to BFR.
Yet Joker has no resistance to BFR or Transmutation
Joker might have resistance to transmutation if that Rattled status ailments and its timer are anything to go by, but that sounds iffy. But yeah, absolutely no resistance to BFR.
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People think this is a stomp beacause Discord can't interact with Personas
Yet Joker has no resistance to BFR or Transmutation
Joker might have resistance to transmutation if that Rattled status ailment and it's timer are anything to go by, but that sounds iffy. But yeah, absolutely no resistance to BFR.
Not again...
Yet Joker has no resistance to BFR or Transmutation
Joker might have resistance to transmutation if that Rattled status ailment and it's timer are anything to go by, but that sounds iffy. But yeah, absolutely no resistance to BFR.
Not again...
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Abstract. Existence. If he's immune to anything that is not CM then teleport is gonna fail.
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The teleportation doesn't work like that afaik. It just allows Joker to enter the hearts of extremely warped people.Multipize said:
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@multipize thanks for filling me in.
what i can say, is, regarding the BFR and transmutation resistance, i have no idea.
Joker can one shot with insta kills so thats a plus for him. That and he can learn of his opponents affinities' when he enters the fight and how their strength compares to him before the fight starts, idk how that would affect his decision making but just wanted to add that.
For now my vote goes to inconclusive
what i can say, is, regarding the BFR and transmutation resistance, i have no idea.
Joker can one shot with insta kills so thats a plus for him. That and he can learn of his opponents affinities' when he enters the fight and how their strength compares to him before the fight starts, idk how that would affect his decision making but just wanted to add that.
For now my vote goes to inconclusive
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Joker resists CM,
For now it is type 4, but after revisions it will be resistance to type 2 conceptual manipulation (I got this from some of the knowledgable members on Persona)
For now it is type 4, but after revisions it will be resistance to type 2 conceptual manipulation (I got this from some of the knowledgable members on Persona)
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The teleportation doesn't work like that afaik. It just allows Joker to enter the hearts of extremely warped people.
afaik?
and that sounds like a win-con
I'm only somewhat experienced with Persona 5's lore and powers, and I don't want to be wrong because I ignored some obscure yet crucial piece of Persona/SMT lore. So, yeah. As far as I know, the teleportation doesn't work like that. And the whole "entering the hearts of the warped" isn't really a wincon.
The way it works is that an extremely warped person's heart will generate what is called a "Palace", or a collection of that person's desires, as well as their perceptions of a certain place. To get into Discord's palace, Joker would need to use an app called the Metaverse Navigator and enter 3 pieces of information:
The name of the Palace's owner, in this case that would be Discord.
He'll also need a location, which would be the physical location of the Palace, like a school, a person's house, or any place that they view in a warped manner.
Lastly, he needs a distortion, or what they think that location is, like a castle, a tomb, or even someplace off-planet entirely, such as a spaceport.
Then you can go inside, find the Palace Owner's inner self that lives within the Palace, and kill that. Sounds great, right? You'd be right, except Joker wouldn't have the time to figure out Discord on such a deep level. He might be able to use his charisma to get info out of Discord, but I don't know.
Sorry for the Great Wall of Text, this is the best I can do.
afaik?
and that sounds like a win-con
I'm only somewhat experienced with Persona 5's lore and powers, and I don't want to be wrong because I ignored some obscure yet crucial piece of Persona/SMT lore. So, yeah. As far as I know, the teleportation doesn't work like that. And the whole "entering the hearts of the warped" isn't really a wincon.
The way it works is that an extremely warped person's heart will generate what is called a "Palace", or a collection of that person's desires, as well as their perceptions of a certain place. To get into Discord's palace, Joker would need to use an app called the Metaverse Navigator and enter 3 pieces of information:
The name of the Palace's owner, in this case that would be Discord.
He'll also need a location, which would be the physical location of the Palace, like a school, a person's house, or any place that they view in a warped manner.
Lastly, he needs a distortion, or what they think that location is, like a castle, a tomb, or even someplace off-planet entirely, such as a spaceport.
Then you can go inside, find the Palace Owner's inner self that lives within the Palace, and kill that. Sounds great, right? You'd be right, except Joker wouldn't have the time to figure out Discord on such a deep level. He might be able to use his charisma to get info out of Discord, but I don't know.
Sorry for the Great Wall of Text, this is the best I can do.
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I swear i saw it on his page a while ago, the heck did it go??Multipize said:
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Is it on his page? or the revisions
Not yet, and it likely won't be until this wiki peaces off of Fandom.
Not yet, and it likely won't be until this wiki peaces off of Fandom.
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In this context, my guess is Chaos Manipulation. As for the warping thing, I guess the idea is that Discord could erase the phone from Joker's hand or disable the logic that allows Joker to use the MetaNav to warp in the first place. I don't know if I trust this "Logic Manip" stuff, but that's what people have been arguing back and forth over.
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- Thread starter
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^ conceptual manipulation
IDW Discord has Abstract Existance Type 2 so maybe they can just fight for all eternity :^)
IDW Discord has Abstract Existance Type 2 so maybe they can just fight for all eternity :^)
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Is it? I didn't see that, sorry.
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Maybe. That would set this fight as inconclusive, right?Angeltripper said:
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Would logic negation by it's own definition be interaction with abstract forces with no true form?
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Wait a second, I just found this: Abstract Existence (Type 1. A Persona's true form is the abstract portions of their user's psyche, and their physical forms are mere projections of it).
That's their abstract existence? Being the abstract portions of the mind? Oh hell no, his abstract existence ain't saving him here then. The laws of logic are more abstract than anything the mind will ever be.
That's their abstract existence? Being the abstract portions of the mind? Oh hell no, his abstract existence ain't saving him here then. The laws of logic are more abstract than anything the mind will ever be.
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Still shouldn't negate Charisma, Intelligence, or Third Eye, since all of those are either part of his body or who he is as a person. It'd make no more sense than disabling the picking up of a can of soda, either causing space to bend itself around the can or just disabling collision with the can altogether. And if that's plausible with Logic Manip, we have a different problem on our hands altogether. This "Logic Manipulation" stuff must have a weakness, right? Some kind of limit? Otherwise it sounds suspiciously like a No Limits Fallacy, if I understand how that sort of thing works. But, that's not what I wanted to talk about in this reply.
If this fight is started in a manner conducive to stealth, Joker should win. Discord shouldn't be able to see Joker when he's invisible, and Joker would ABSOLUTELY use stealth right out of the gate if at all possible. It's shown in the anime and game that Joker absolutely adores abusing his Stealth Mastery and he's very well aware of how to do so. He could either just Death Hax Discord from the shadows (unlikely, but still kinda worth mentioning), or he could use his gun for a chance at a status ailment like shock, which is more likely than death haxxing right out of the gate and would give him a considerable advantage over Discord, or he could, to his detriment, attempt to do something like decapitate Discord, which would probably do nothing more than piss Discord off and definitely lead to a loss on Joker's part.
If this fight is started in a manner conducive to stealth, Joker should win. Discord shouldn't be able to see Joker when he's invisible, and Joker would ABSOLUTELY use stealth right out of the gate if at all possible. It's shown in the anime and game that Joker absolutely adores abusing his Stealth Mastery and he's very well aware of how to do so. He could either just Death Hax Discord from the shadows (unlikely, but still kinda worth mentioning), or he could use his gun for a chance at a status ailment like shock, which is more likely than death haxxing right out of the gate and would give him a considerable advantage over Discord, or he could, to his detriment, attempt to do something like decapitate Discord, which would probably do nothing more than piss Discord off and definitely lead to a loss on Joker's part.
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He disables logic. Not superpowers. I explained this already. Superpowers just get negated as a side effect.
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Discord still knows he has to fight. He doesn't need to see someone to negate their powers. Stealth ain't helping since Discord is gonna neg regardless whether he sees Ren or not.
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So, you're telling me Discord's overconfident-as-hell self is gonna neg right out of the gate against an enemy he isn't aware is a threat, let alone that he's even there? If that's what you're suggesting, then https://youtu.be/jSdimIa6Y_
Seriously though, if I'm reading his profile right, that kind of behavior is extremely OoC. Discord likely wouldn't use LM until Joker visibly presents a threat to Discord, at which point if Joker plays his cards right, it should be too late anyways.
And if he "still knows he has to fight", why did we write a Declaration of Independence and a half about Joker's charisma if it's irrelevant anyway?
Furthermore, I'm not seeing any resistances on Discord's Page. So why can't Joker just despair/fear+ghastly wail once it's in-character for him to do so? Or he could brainwash Discord, and then death hax him. Again, once it's in-character.
There's also Joker's Fate Manipulation, which could potentially activate in response to Discord trying to neg, but that's difficult to judge since neither have really shown any kind of limits. I mean, Joker's fate manip activated to save him from a fated death in response to Joker being placed in an unwinnable situation. And Discord's LM hasn't shown any kind of limits at all, so I don't know if LM can disable FM like that.
On another note, you haven't responded regarding Discord's LM being a NLF. So, what's up? Does Discord's LM have limits in-verse or not? Because if it doesn't, this match was pretty much rigged from the start, and thus never should have happened to begin with.
Seriously though, if I'm reading his profile right, that kind of behavior is extremely OoC. Discord likely wouldn't use LM until Joker visibly presents a threat to Discord, at which point if Joker plays his cards right, it should be too late anyways.
And if he "still knows he has to fight", why did we write a Declaration of Independence and a half about Joker's charisma if it's irrelevant anyway?
Furthermore, I'm not seeing any resistances on Discord's Page. So why can't Joker just despair/fear+ghastly wail once it's in-character for him to do so? Or he could brainwash Discord, and then death hax him. Again, once it's in-character.
There's also Joker's Fate Manipulation, which could potentially activate in response to Discord trying to neg, but that's difficult to judge since neither have really shown any kind of limits. I mean, Joker's fate manip activated to save him from a fated death in response to Joker being placed in an unwinnable situation. And Discord's LM hasn't shown any kind of limits at all, so I don't know if LM can disable FM like that.
On another note, you haven't responded regarding Discord's LM being a NLF. So, what's up? Does Discord's LM have limits in-verse or not? Because if it doesn't, this match was pretty much rigged from the start, and thus never should have happened to begin with.
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He does have mind resist because the pony that invades dreams can't get inSmashkabab said:
Joker's fate manip works by someone saying he's fated lose or die He doesn't do it invalidates pre-cog and (probably the death note as well) that's it so it's not applicable here
also if you watch any fight against big bads in mlp you would notice a theme if wasn't for discord's character or him not knowing about the situation or just having his magic stolen he could've just ended the threat so I'm 90% sure there is no real limit to it because No one have even beaten him without the elements Hax or without his magic
BUT
Discord was persuaded into helping Tirek wins or just flat out telling the main characters where the only weapon that can defeat him is. Discord doesn't lose fights because his opponent has has a higher power level He givesthem chances
Which because he has Alice and Anubis one chance is all Joker needs, and he has the means to get there.
I vote Joker
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