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Dio vs Geralt

Actually it's usually most recent if not specified, not strongest. Doesnt change what I said in that usually we use similar tiers if the character has them. I mean you wouldnt use a 6-A tier for a character against a 7-B if both characters have a 7-B. Much in the same way we generally just equalize speed.

Like I'm assuming we're doing here because mind you, speed isnt equal yet.

Not that it'd matter much I dont think, both start off in 8-C+, so both keys are vulnerable to Dio and likely wouldnt last a full length time stop from High Dio.
 
M3X said:
>tens of thousands of punches would still do someone in only 4x stronger.
I want to know where this was ever stated on this wiki, please. We are talking about someone who is almost baseline High 8-C against a 8-C+ character. What is Dio's AP? 1.7 tons? Geralt has tanked a bunch of punched and attacks from people stronger than himself.
Click to expand...
A 4x advantage is big but it doesnt make you invulnerable, so yeah, thousands of punches can do the trick
 
Ask chariot dude, he is the Jojo expert here. 4 times is something he said, not something stated by SBA or match rules for inumerous punches
 
>I want to know where this was ever stated on this wiki, please. We are talking about someone who is almost baseline High 8-C against a 8-C+ character. What is Dio's AP? 1.7 tons? Geralt has tanked a bunch of punched and attacks from people stronger than himself.

How about common sense? A character aint surviving tens of thousands of direct blows (at minimum mind you, we could easily hit hunreds of thousands of blows) if they're not even 2x as strong. Are you actually siggesting that any character in general, if they're not even a full 2x stronger, can survive thousands, tens of thousands, hell even millions or billions if numbers dont matter, of blows from a character encroaching on them in strength? This aint a 9-B Vs. A 8-A or 7-B. It's two characters within the same tier, Geralt aint so much stronger he's walking off hundreds of thousands of blows to the face or chest.

>He was talking about Geralt being 4x stronger....

Oh 4x? No I was making a point, the gap is much less than that, I was saying that even hypothetically if Geralt was over 4x as strong (I was assuming in this ypothetical Dio was baseline), that wouldnt be big enough a difference to survive that many blows directly. Hell Whitesnake aint even 4x weaker than Geralt, he's only like 2.5x weaker, Base The World is less than 2x Geralt and The World likely got a bit f a boost when Dio got one as well.
 
>When he's poisoned by potions. In base he scales above that 1.9 ton feat.

Thousands if not Tens of thousands of blows per second is a lot of blows for someone with a 11 second time stop.

And technically speaking, Dio scales above the feat he's scaling off by being quite a bit stronger so it probably evens out a bit.
 
Sorry Chariot but I not gonna waste my time reading this. A 8-C+ can't damage a High 8-C+ character no matter what. I don't care if Dio can one shot this character or this other character, he is still limited by 8-C Tier.

If you think Dio can damage a High 8-C+ character, you should create a CRT for that and put this specific abilitie as High 8-C+.
 
And then, again, you are considering Dio would pass trought Quen, but as you said, you don't have enough info to say he can or enough info to say that he can't.
 
Uh, what? I mean I'm all for tiers and the like but Geralts base is only 8-C so either way a bit of a moot point.

And you realize tiers dont work like that unless it's actually a big gap? A 1.9 ton 8-C can still harm and ultimately kill a 2 ton High 8-C for example. Tiers are benchmarks, not immunities to lower tiers, especially if the gap between said tiers aint much.

Hell see Street level and Peak human or alternatively Large Mountain and Island. Large Mountain is only a 4x gap, someone at the top of the tier below and someone at the tier above can fight, although the one above is at a considerabe advantage, theyarent exactly immune to any and all damage.

Edit: Actually Geralt being able to take blows from characters above him is actually an example to prove my point, even though the characters are technically in different tiers with Geralt being at the top of 8-C while theyre High 8-C, he can still survive despite the tier difference because the gap isnt actually that big. Of course A High 8-C and a 8-C can be a super stomp if the gaps big enough, I mean a 10 tonner is gonna **** up a 2 tonner. Really just depends how big the power gap is.
 
>And then, again, you are considering Dio would pass trought Quen, but as you said, you don't have enough info to say he can or enough info to say that he can't.

Actually I said you dont have enough info. I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt and saying it possibly can, 50/50 Yes, but the same goes for you. You ultimately dont have enough info to say that Quen would hinder The World's phasing in the slightest. See the issue? Let's not make this a point when it'll go nowhere.

Edit: I should note I aint even voting for Dio, atm I'm just listing off shit that everyone seemed to ignore, or werent aware of anyway. Really all I'm here for is to list things Dio can do or has done.
 
Stands are the manifestation of users life energy or it essentially means they can get tired if they use their stands for a long period of time

and that period of time might be less than ten minutes and as chariot stated the fight with dio and jotaro was barely 2 minutes long and dio was exhausted as hell unable to even use time stop to counter attack star platinum

Sure, there are some expections but not in dio's case

And life energy is also what mages and sorcerses get their magical power and quen can block these attacks at a 7-B scale
 
>Stands are the manifestation of users life energy or it essentially means they can get tired if they use their stands for a long period of time

Literally never shown to be the case in any circumstance. Actually, show me an example of a Stand User getting tired from using their Stand for long periods of time (There's plenty of Stand users who tend to have their Stands out at nearly all times, with said Stands being of the same class as The World). The only example I can think of is Jotaro getting tired due to repeated usage of time stop and it's specified he only gets tired from using time stop and it's also only a weakness Jotaro has, not Dio, due to him being human.

>and that period of time might be less than ten minutes and as chariot stated the fight with dio and jotaro was barely 2 minutes long and dio was exhausted as hell unable to even use time stop to counter attack star platinum

Dio wasnt exhausted at any point in the fight, the only time Dio had issues with anything was when he had his skull smashed in in base, and that didnt hinder him from stopping time at all. Dio never failed to counter Star Platinum with time stop, in fact he succeeded in using time stop in every instance he tried to do so, it's just as time went on Star Platinum began moving within stopped time. Example, when Dio tried to stop time to counter Star Platinum caving his skull in, Dio did stop time, he successfully stopped time but that didnt stop Star Platinum's punch, it kept on going and collided with his skull as by then Star Platinum could already move within it.

>Sure, there are some expections but not in dio's case

Dio is the biggest exception of them all, he's never shown to tire. Him having his head blown in isnt him getting tired, that's him getting his head blown in.

>And life energy is also what mages and sorcerses get their magical power and quen can block these attacks at a 7-B scale

And yet Stands are a cut above life energy and ghosts in their own series as far as phasing and interaction with them is concerned, not the same thing.


Actually though, you're trying to say something that literally never happened, Dio never got tired in their fight? The fight ended with him being a cocky smug asshole with a grin on his face in good condition. The only thing I can assume you're talking about is when Plat smashed his head in but that wasnt him getting tired nor did he fail to stop time to counter Star Platinum, he did stop time just Plat kept on going (He even stops time while his head is caved in moments later to grab a taxi). Not to mention this is High Dio, he doesnt have the healing and body adaption weakness, dude literally sticks a finger through his own skull and laughs at it showing head trauma isnt an issue anymore.
 
That's why we avoid to make matches with Jojo characters. No one deserves this essays. Schnee, feel free to close the thread
 
>close the thread.

But there's been zero fighting? I explained why what he said was wrong, pointed out that his claim never actually occured. I also explained what happened in the fight, I even went back and read the arc to see if maybe Dio did get tired at some point. He never did, nor did he fail to use time stop in any instance, the only time his time stop failed was not because time wasnt stopped but because Star Platinum could move within stopped time and did so. Hell I even went through every Stand to see if any actually effected their User's stamina, I have the list if you want it?

I'd also argue that essays are better than simply saying you're wrong without explaining why.
 
Chariot don't get me wrong, not personal. I just don't like the way you act in a VS match with a Jojo character. No need to write big wall of texts for such simple stuff. The best you can get here is a inconclusive result.
 
M3X said:
Chariot don't get me wrong, not personal. I just don't like the way you act in a VS match with a Jojo character. No need to write big wall of texts for such simple stuff. The best you can get here is a inconclusive result.
Click to expand...
why are you on vs battle then everybod post long comments like this

people cant explain something with only yes,no,maybe
 
I've done nothing wrong here mate, I explained why the claim was wrong and went into detail why. I could always opt not explain anything at all and just say no, the claim is wrong. But that isnt how Vs. matches work. And this aint even unique to JoJo, it's a stance I take on most things, dont really bother with much outside of JoJo though on the wiki (Was gonna try and update Okami a bit tho), but when I do I tend to try and cover everything at once (idk only other verse I've really partaken in is Nintendo things, you could probably look back at some Xerneas CRT and Rayquaza discussions). I'm acting how I usually act, it's odd though in this case as I'm making an effort to keep it civil.

Did I not clarify that I'm not even voting and the only reason why I commented in the first place is because of the ignorance of what High Dio is even capable of? Actually, looking through the thread nobody made mention of what Dio could do which isnt how matches should go, should be discussion on both sides, even if one is simply devil's advocate.
 
Anyway here's another long winded response about the whole Stand's take stamina thing (It looks a lot longer then it is though due to the list of Stand names being spaced apart though).

I'm going through every single Stand and I've yet to come across one that made the User tired with excessive use with the exception of Jotaro's time stop (And that's only time stop, and only because he's human. Using Star Platinum alone is fine). Hell I've come across many that are usually always out like Sex Pistols, Paisley Park, RHCP with no known ill effects on the user. The only thing that I've found in regards to a Stand draining energy is simply having the force of will to properly control it, with sufficient fighting spirit, even an old hag like Enya can control her Stand for long peroids of time with no known limit or effort as she has a strong will, without it is when the Stand begins to **** with the user. Dio is not only shown to be of incredible will but he doesnt even have the time stop weakness Jotaro has due to having an immortal body (It's also why his time stop can go past 5 seconds, he's not limited to human limitations like Jotaro).

I have compiled a list of Stands that have been shown to stay active for prolonged periods of time with no ill effect on the host and no effect on stamina (Not withstanding I havent come across one yet that effects the host upon being active, these one's just happen to be shown to stay active for awhile, only going away when the user is defeated/killed or desummoned on purpose after prolonged use because the reason for them being out is no longer needed).

Hierophant Green

Silver Chariot

Strength

Yellow Temperance

Hanged Men

Empress

Wheel of Fortune

Justice

Lovers

The Sun

Death 13

High Priestess

Geb

Khnum

Tohth (Although this one is always active, probably doesnt count)

Atum

Tenore Sax

Aqua Necklace

Bad Company

Harvest

RHCP

Surface

Love Deluxe

The Lock

Highway Star

SHA

BTD

Cheap Trick

Achtung Baby

Superfly and Anubis (Both are unbound Stands though).

Sex Pistols.

Moody Blues.

Black Sabbath

Soft Machine

Clash

Talking Head

Green Day

Oasis

White Album (Although he has an ability that costs him a lot of energy, it only applies to that one ability, much like Jotaro's time stop).

Baby Face

Mr. President

Grateful Dead

Burning Down The House

Weather Report

Whitesnake

C-Moon

Made In Heaven

Manhatten Transfer

GGD

JJF

Limp Bizkit

Dragon's Dream

YYM

Jail House Lock

Underworld

Scary Monsters

Hey Ya

Catch The Rainbow

Tatoo You

Ticket to Ride

Love Train

20th Century Boy

Paisley Park

Fun Fun Fun

Milagro Man

Brain Storm

Are the (Canon) Stands that have stayed active for long periods of time, up to even hours and days in some cases and a few, forever, like 20th Century Boy. While at the same time I only found two examples out of all Stands that drain Stamina, and it's only two specific abilities (White Album's Sub ability and looking into it, Jotaro's time stop doesnt even make him tired, it just has a cooldown of a second or two unlike Dio who can spam it, it doesnt actually tire him out at all. And White Album's ability is said to weaken his Stand power for a bit after it's used, but the user isnt shown to actually be effected by it all, dude just says this ability takes a lot of power so he doesnt use it often then proceeds to be fine). There's also Stands that have had their powers active without being visible, like Sticky Fingers, for hours at a time.

And there's more cases as well, but I didnt include Stands like F.F, stray cat or Atom Heart because F.F is a weird case although technically speaking, the Stand has always been active, same with the other two example. I also didnt include Stands that are implied to have been out for a long while but isnt confirmed due to time jumps like Heavens Door or Echoes.
 
Phasing is incredibly out of character for DIO (He always leads with MUDA barrages and time-stop). Even Jotaro used it only once.
 
Phasing isnt out of character though? Phasing The World's fist into someone's chest is out of character. The mere act of phasing though Isnt. Jotaro does it more than once, ignoring the heart thing with Joseph and himself, he does it elsewhere as well like with phasing Star Platinum to steal jewelry in the lovers arc (Or phasing Star Platinum through a truck). Or there's things like Whitesnake phasing through prison bars or Chariot phasing through obstacles to get to their target. If there's a forcefield up and The World is capable of phasing through it, The World is gonna phase through it, it may not even be a conscious choice, pretty sure Stands phase through things by default, which is why they generally cant be touched by anything that isnt a Stand.

You're confusing phasing being out of character with how phasing is used being out of character. Phasing isnt ooc, only certain ways that it can be utilized is.
 
Nobody is saying The World is going to use phasing for combat purposes though? He wont, phasing to kill isnt something most Stand users do. Phasing in general isnt combat purposes though.

Unless you're saying that The World isnt gonna phase to get around something like a wall or a forcefield or something? In which case not how it works, the default state is phasing, The World would have to actively choose not to phase (and even then I dont even think that's how it works, pretty sure it's selective), it's a Stand, the default state is being intangbile and noncorporal, obstacles and the like dont hinder it because they cant interact with it and it goes right through them, it's literally how Stands work, especially power type Stands. And even then your main point, if I'm reading it correctly, doesnt really hold up because Stands have phased to get to their target before if their target is behind something. See Whitesnake, yeah he may not phase his arm into someone's head to rip their brain out but he just walks through walls, prison bars and all that like they arent even there. You're suggesting the world basically turns off his Stand properties.
 
The ghosts in Hearts of Stone are non-corporeal, they're basically souls now.

And normal humans like Shani couldn't see or even hear them.
 
What's that gotta do with you saying Stands dont phase through things in character? I have no issue with Quen being able to possibly stop phasing in general, I already said it possibly could at least 4 times (although it possibly being able to by definition means it possibly cant as well. Dont forget that Stands for some reason are treated above normal ghosts and all that within JoJo, which is where the issue of it may or may not working lies). But that wasnt the point you were making initially.
 
Alright saw the entirety of JJBA part 3 fight scenes and aside from some intangible stands (Examples being cream, the hanged man, high preistess, yellow temperance, and sethan) there wasn't much phasing of any kind the fighting stands could still interact with walls, objects and living creatures

So i do think quen can block the worlds muda
 
Uh yeah? Ignoring the fact all Stands are intangible as a rule of thumb with very few exceptions (High Priestess and Yellow Temperance are literally a few of those exceptions though so I have no idea why you're bringing up corporal Stands as an example of intangible Stands, those Stands cant phase) Stands can interact with things but things can't interact with Stands. You clearly dont know how this works, no offense. If a Stand punches something that something is destroyed, in every other situation the Stands acts like the obstacle isnt even there. Several of the Part 3 fighting Stands show as much, it's inherent to all Stands with the exception of Bound Stands.

Here's some examples, there's plenty more but those are just a few off the top of my head I dont see brought up nearly as much as they should. A Stand is always in an intangible state. The World is no exception, in fact he's probably an example given he and Star Platinum share the same skill set and are expies of each other. If there is an obstacle such as a wall, a Stand can throw a punch and have said punch phase through the obstacle but still inflict damage on the thing recieving the punch. It's literally why Stands have selective intangiblity, they choose what they interact with and they can make it so only the force from their blow is what is interacting (That's the base state). There's examples of Stands that cant just phase through anything but it's either because they're bound Stands (Stands bounded to a physical object), Stands that are made up of a physical substance (Aqua Necklace) or a super rare example like Requiem in which it's fully corporal and can be seen and touched by anything.

If a character has a forcefield up, generally speaking, and theyre fighting a Stand. The Stand would throw a punch, their arm would go through the forcefield but hit their target. That's how Stands work and that's also how Stand users in general react to things like that in general, it's considered common knowledge amongst Stand Users and in cases where there's an obstacle a Stand will just go through it, especially if they need to do so to attack or defend, only times where that situation happens and the Stand doesnt do that is when it's an automatic Stand, which is a weakness of those Stands. They're stupid, they follow a command blindly and dont have any intellect and only do one thing albeit taht one thing super well. Put simply The World is always in an intangible state yet can still punch something while simutaneously phasing, it isnt unique to The World, that's how Stands in general function, especially one that has the same powers as Star Platinum.
 
> there wasn't much phasing of any kind the fighting stands could still interact with walls, objects and living creatures

Basically yeah, that's the point? Stands choose what they interact with, otherwise they dont interact at all and even then theyre still intangible even while interacting unless they exert energy to bodyblock an attack meant for their user. If not, nothing can touch them even while theyre attacking. Though I dont know what you mean by objects, the only time a Stand in Part 3 is harmd, hit by, or restrained by an object is if said objects come from a Stand (Strength, Emperor, WOF) or are imbued with Stand energy (Anubis, Ebony Devil, and the most famous example, although not from Part 3, is Sex Pistols, who imbues bullets with Stand Energy according to Part 7 of all places).

If you need an example of a Stand throwing attacking while phasing (Ignoring things like Chariot stabbing through a table or a bed while phasing through the object itself while attacking or Plat punching a truck), Marilyn Manson tends to phase into people's shadows (sometimes not even, sometimes the dude just comes out of a wall) and attacks, unlike Black Sabbath who is bound to shadows and is a shadow and all that, Marilyn Manson just does it for show and only sometimes.
 
But you're missing a crucial point

Because the stands can in fact interact with physical objects but not Quen

You've just proven me that stands much like wraiths can phase whenever they want and where ever they want and can interact with objects whenever they please but not a single wraith in the entierty of the games and books has ever phased through quen or even managed to break it

Quen is made from geralt's life force as you might call it much like the stands in JJBA

Magic in witcher 3 in general isdirectly tied with users life force and it's shown when that force is drawn out the user either feels dizzy or outright collapses much like JJBA too

Signs are essentially stands that are created by witchers and there isn't any case when a stand has ever phased through another stand to directly attack their users now has there?

So no, the world cannot phase through quen and because of quens ability to keep even wraiths out of it's range and having the same source of creation has the stands no i don't think dio will ever be able to time stop and muda geralt
 
>Because the stands can in fact interact with physical objects but not Quen

Uh, pretty sure that's a fallacy, that or you're wording your point wrong. If a Stand can selectively interact with an object, doesnt mean that a forcefield can stop them. You're drawing a conclusion from two unrelated pieces of information.

>You've just proven me that stands much like wraiths can phase whenever they want and where ever they want and can interact with objects whenever they please but not a single wraith in the entierty of the games and books has ever phased through quen or even managed to break it

Yes, I did prove Stands can phase through basically whatever they want despite your initial contradictory claims. Yes, except here's the issue with that. Stands arent wraiths, they may seem similiar on paper but Stands can even phase through what would be the JoJo equilavent of wraiths. stands arent just life energy or spiritual, not even the spiritual, like ghosts and revenants can interact with Stands, with one major exception (But said exception isnt a ghost nor revenant, in fact it's made quite clear it's neither but rather an inescapable law, we to this day do not know what it is). Just because something like a Wraith can't phase through it doesnt mean something with such potent intangibility that not even things similar in nature like Ghosts, which are also capable of phasing, can stop a Stand. The only way this wouldnt be true is if Wraiths have shown to be untouchable by things like ghosts.

>Quen is made from geralt's life force as you might call it much like the stands in JJBA

That line has been retconned (And then murdered and burned Post Part 5), that line was said when Stands were meant to be an evolved form of a type of Hamon, which is what Hamon is, life energy. (It's also why the Kanji for Stands early on is literally Ghostly Ripple/Hamon, it was meant to be the next step above Hamon but was quickly changed). Using an out of date line from the first debut of a Stand before the rules were established fully isnt exactly making a case for yourself.

>Magic in witcher 3 in general is directly tied with users life force and it's shown when that force is drawn out the user either feels dizzy or outright collapses much like JJBA too

Good for the Witcher then, if we were using Hamon you'd have a point, or a Stand like Hermit Purple which is based on Hamon, but we aren't. Also Like JJBA too? You still going on about Stands being used for prolonged periods of time drain a user's energy when that has literally never been the case unless using a super specific special power like Gently Wheeps (And even then it doesnt drain stamina, only Stand Power, making the Stand temporarily a bit weaker or needing a cool down of a few seconds) but rather the opposite has been shown to be true, with Stands being active for increasingly long periods of time with no visible or even implied hinderance. Unless you're talking about the damage to a Stand reflects onto a user. Which isnt why that's a thing, false analogy, not a comparable example between two different sets of power. Damage reflects onto the user because Stands are a facet of the soul, and in JoJo, damage to the soul reflects onto the body as well, it's an evolution of that. Stands just have the added benefit of, unlike ordinary souls in JoJo like Reimi or Yoshiro, are immune to nearly everything in their verse except other Stands and things imbued with Stand energy, like Mista's gun.

>Signs are essentially stands that are created by witchers and there isn't any case when a stand has ever phased through another stand to directly attack their users now has there

Ignoring the false equilavence and how that isnt the case at all, not how it works. Stands are intangible to ghosts and normal souls, which is the proper comparison, if the things The Witcher has is analogous with things that Stands cant be harmed by, the result would be the opposite of your conclusion. Quen has stopped things that are equilavent to ghosts, now if Stands were equal with ghosts you'd have a point but no, not even intangible souls can harm a Stand, only Stands within JoJo, can harm a Stand, not even youkai, revenants or ghouls (all of which exist in JoJo). Also I'm not even sure that's entirely true either, given Diver Down has phased into a Stand before and contrary to popular belief, his ability is actually storing attacks and energy into objects and releasing it at a later time and treating the objects he phases into as malleable like a liquid (hence the dive part).

>So no, the world cannot phase through quen and because of quens ability to keep even wraiths out of it's range and having the same source of creation has the stands no i don't think dio will ever be able to time stop and muda geralt

Just because you say it doesn't mean you're right. Witcher magic and Stands don't have the same source of creation, Hamon is technically closer to life force than Stands are.You think Dio would never be able to is moot as well, Dio's faster on the draw here, he can get time stop out, especially in character (given while High it's the very first thing he does, it's also the first thing he does when trying to kill an opponent, he doesnt even hint that he's stopping time if his opponent isnt already aware of it as well), faster than Geralt can get Quen out which looking through all the footage I've found, always has him doing a bit of a hand motion. Not that it would matter, dont know if you picked up on this but given I said so as much as 4 times now, The World being capable of phasing through Quen or not is a 50/50, there's not enough info either or. Also I'm not even sure that's 100% true, looking through footage and walkthroughs, pretty sure I've seen Wraiths clip through Quen or fly through it immediatly after attacking, which I can't tell if it's a glitch, it being a matter of which state the Wraith is in (Given they have two explicit forms, physical and non-corporal) or something else entirely. I'd appreciate it if you could possibly supply an example of Quen blocking a Wraith in it's non-corporal state as well as it simply moving through/past Geralt in that form.

Although I've been looking into Wraiths there seems to be a bit of discrepancy between being non-corporal and manifesting physically, because they have two clearly defined states. Also why does the Witcher Wiki explicitly say Quen can't block physical damage from things like punches (Even citing a source, Last Wishes)? I'm just gonna assume it's wrong though given from what I've researched it clearly does, but one thing I did notice though is that Quen can only take so many hits. While it protects against hits with little to no issue, it can only deflect so many hits, it isnt a what can break it but rather how many can it take till it breaks, which is like what? Ten distinct hits? I dont know why nobody has bothered to mention that Quen while it would protect Geralt from basically any damage given the tier, it only does so so many times before being needed to reapply or recharged, and that's kinda a huge flaw against someone who can hit it countless times within a time stop or stop time the moment it wears out but before it can be recharged or reapplied. I also want to point out, according to the profile.

>Weaknesses: Lethal injuries that would otherwise kill a man take him months to recover. Is quite honorable in battle and rarely uses some of his Witcher signs like Quen or Axii unless it greatly fits the situation and is normally rather willing to start the fight with his swordsmanship.

As well as his standard tatic section. Which explains that Quen usually only comes out in character against opponents with aoe or long ranged magic/attacks.

There's a huge chance Geralt may not even use Quen, at least not till he thinks he either absolutely needs to or thinks it would be extremely beneficial but that's the problem, High Dio leads with his wincondition, time stop (And given they start within eyesight range, that's extremely dangerous), if Geralt opts to not even use his best chance at survival then that's a pretty huge issue outlined directly on the profile and is even considered his weakness. And do note, Geralt isnt aware Dio can stop time or he has a Stand, as far as Geralt is concerned he's fighting a homoerotic buff dude with a banana hammock, he may be cautious but he's not gonna assume the worst and definitely not a fisticuff time stopping invisible buff dude. Although I still stand by my point of most Stands possibly being able to phase anyway. But that's a completey moot point if Quen may not even come out till it's to late or Quen being only able to protect so many times in one go.
 
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