Dies Irae Revisions

[Infera28]

Removing 5-A keys

so we currently have Wilhelm Ehrenburg, Ren Fuji, Machina' Eleonore and Wolfgang Schreiber at 5-A cuz Boosted Wilhelm being capable of destroying Methuselah's jaws of darkness and scaling Ren Fuji and Commanders to him. however that is wrong. as context told us only reason for Einherjar Willhelm being capable of both touching and harming Methuselah was 1- having connection with Claudia 2- Methuselah believing Claudia as the light, sun and being powerless before her

it even sated having Gladshiem's supply and 8K souls isn't enough for harming Methuselah and only person capable of breaking Methuselah is Reinhard

not to mention Schreiber's law manip allowed him for intracting with Methuselah too but he still wasn't capable of heavily damaging him (cuz Methuselah durability). it even stated only reasoning for Schreiber not being able to heavily harming Methuselah was lacking enough firepower.

so Wilhelm being capable of damaging Methuselah and destroying parts of his body with 8k souls is pretty doubtful as Schreiber has over 185k souls and he could't that much damage Methuselah.

so we need to removing 5-A keys of everyone but Methuselah.

Agree: (3) Ricky365, Matthew Schroeder, Trexalfa29

Disagree: (10) Warren Valion, Tony di bugalu, Accelerate420, PsychoWarper, TISSG7Redgrave, Veloxt1r0kore, Qliphoth Bacikal, Paul Frank, Nepuko, Ionliosite

adding conceptual manip to entire of Ewigkeit users
it stated Holy Relics are accomulated within concepts [1] and made of souls and concepts [2] even Ren Fuji called his own Holy Relic as a concept [3]

not only that but Wolfgang Schreiber's Briah allowed him for intracting with Methuselah (concept of darkness) and damaging him and he inflicted wounds on Methuselah too he only wasn't capable of heavily damaging Methuselah cuz his durability. nothing more.

although idk that is which type of conceptual manip and we should add resistance to conceptual manip for everyone or not.

Agree: (1) Ricky365

Disagree: (10) Warren Valion, Tony di bugalu, Accelerate420, PsychoWarper, TISSG7Redgrave, Veloxt1r0kore, Qliphoth Bacikal, Paul Frank, Ionliosite, Nepuko

adding 1-A via LLT to Valeria Trifa's profile
so we know Valeria has Reinhard's LLT which is 1-A. but people are used to thinking his LLT is weaker than Reinhard. but not only that never stated in novel but his LLT pierced Marie who is 1-A and stabbed her all way back to Twilight Beach. [4]

claim: Valeria's LLT wasn't capable of killing Ren Fuji so his LLT isn't 1-A

debunk: it stated "as doubts sprung forth in the user's craving to be the Gold's twin, the supposedly perfectly accurate and fatal superhead missed by a slight margin" Valeria was doubtful about his craving (becoming Reinhard aka true owner of LLT) and it depowered his LLT [5]

claim: Machina dodged Valeria's LLT

debunk 1: this one is kinda complicated. Valeria believed LLT's power to be absolute yet at same time by fixing LLT's power into the a framework he could understand contradicted himself and it depowered LLT again. it even stated "By believing the shine to be absolute. Valeria Trifa was contradicting himself." "The faiht and the conflicting underestimation. That is the reason you lost" "While believing the power he was blessed with to be without equal, he made light of the originator, The Priest fixed his Lord's might into a framework he could understand." [6]

Debunk 2: as stated in scan Valeria Trifa tried to disobeying and betraying to Reinhard by trying to Killing Machina who was under Reinhard's comment and one with him. trying to killing Machina (one with Reinhard) by LLT (Reinhard's power) caused a paradox and it depowered LLT too "He was warped as both a rebel and a borrower of his master's power"

Agree: (14) Ionliosite, Ricky365, Warren Valion, Tony di bugalu, Accelerate420, PsychoWarper, TISSG7Redgrave, Veloxt1r0kore, Qliphoth Bacikal, Trexalfa29, EmperorRorepme, Paul Frank, Nepuko

Disagree:

 

[Ionliosite]

This looks fine to me, although I would like to hear others oppinions regarding the 3-B.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Everything looks good to me, but I feel for the Trifa 1-A LLT thing we should maybe add in the weaknesses that he has a tendency to depower LLT due to his own mentality and doubt or something like that.

 

[Ricky365]

Agree with all 3

 

[Warren_Valion]

I disagree with one and two. I agree with 3.


The problem with your argument for number 1 is that you are equating Meth's Jaws of Darkness to Meth's entire being.

Wilhelm isn't 5-A for harming Meth - he's 5-A for destroying Meth's Jaw's of Darkness.

Meth's durability is At least 3-B. All this implies is what we have on the profile - that Meth is a stone wall, which Wilhelm can't beat with his own strength.

But it also suggests that Pre-Berlin Ritual Reinhard might be 3-B because his "quantity" would be comparable to Meth. So that's something, I guess.


And the reason I disagree with the second one is for the reasons that conceptual attacks and resistances were removed on this thread.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

You already know my thoughts on this, I disagree with 1 because of what I said on the discussion thread and what Warren said. I could go on depth why tho.

For the others, Warren FRA I guess.

 

[Accelerate420]

Looks good except I'm with Warren on 1 and 2.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Hmm I guess ill change my vote to Warren reasoning.

So no on 1 and 2 but yes on 3.

 

[Infera28]

about second one. as stated in that topic: "However, ALRF/SleepyT said that the "concepts" in their Holy Relics takes up the form of a poison that negates/greatly hinders their Regenerationn" this is still conceptual manipulation. they transform concepts into the poisons.

mentioned topic missed this feat too and never debunked it:

Wolfgang Schreiber's Briah allowed him for intracting with Methuselah (concept of darkness) and damaging him and he inflicted wounds on Methuselah too he only wasn't capable of heavily damaging Methuselah cuz his durability.

as stated in scans: "Creation Figment created a rule. It was a power that made one's ideal pulverize all common sense, so "obvious" ideas such as the indestructibility of darkness shouldn't have applied to Schreiber" "in fact, Albedo might've actually been damaging him"

it stated Schreiber inflicted wounds on him and was capable of tearing through parts of him

"These wounds are all rather shallow" "there was a limit to the area it could tear."

but as stated in scan he only failed in heavily damaging and tearing through him because Methuselah's durability was far higher than Schreiber's firepower.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Also, Pscyho is right in stating that Trifa's LLT should have a weakness based on his mentality.

Which is frankly consistent to what we see with Marie in a different part of the story.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Your taking the statement to literally and out-of-context. "Those concepts" are the creation figments themselves. They emanate a posion that hinders the regernation process of other Die Ewigket users. They don't alter concepts, they negate Regenerationn.

And the fact that Machina's ability being explicitly stated to uniquely affect concepts and ideas, and that is one of the reaons as to why is his power so special and terrifying, also goes to show that the LDO do not all have system-wide concept manipulation - only Reinhard, Machina, Mercurius, (and maybe Ren?) have it.


Also, as for Wolfgang touching Meth - I believe it to be an outlier/plothole/inconsistency as a significant plot point of the story is Wilhelm only being able to touch Meth do their connection to Claudia - not to mention all the moments in the story where Wilhelm tried to touch Meth and wasn't able to.

Wolfgang and Wilhelm's powers come from the same source of magic, there isn't anything different about them, so it seems to imply that an inaccuracy in the plot. And thus, it isn't a vaild reason for your argument.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

It is explained that Wolffy was trying to attack Meth as the God of Darkness, he lacks the AoE tho deal with the body of his as what he is doing is "dispersing" the darkness around him.

Think of it like this, I'm trying to hit the water of a pool but I can only punch one point and run to the other side to punch the other, I lack the proper "firepower" or AoE to deal with everything at once because it is an element, a part of nature that I can't hit all at once. It even mentions how he lacks the physical form to affect.

As for Wilhelm, he is attacking Meth, not like the God of Darkness but as his kinsman, he isn't attacking the whole being of Methusela but rather the "body" which used to be Ludwig. This is all thanks to the blood pact they have through Claudia.

 

[Warren_Valion]

It is explained that Wolffy was trying to attack Meth as the God of Darkness, he lacks the AoE tho deal with the body of his as what he is doing is "dispersing" the darkness around him.
Think of it like this, I'm trying to hit the water of a pool but I can only punch one point and run to the other side to punch the other, I lack the proper "firepower" or AoE to deal with everything at once because it is an element, a part of nature that I can't hit all at once. It even mentions how he lacks the physical form to affect.

As for Wilhelm, he is attacking Meth, not like the God of Darkness but as his kinsman, he isn't attacking the whole being of Methusela but rather the "body" which used to be Ludwig. This is all thanks to the blood pact they have through Claudia.

This actually makes the most sense.


As when Wihelm did say when punched through Meth it was like trying to touch vapor or a gas. Most likely based on Meth's sheer density that he's even touchable even in the slightest of forms.

 

[Infera28]

alright then someone give me a suitable good explanation for Valeria's weakness please. something like this but better: "Valeria doubting about his own craving or contradicting it depowers his LLT."

 

[Accelerate420]

alright then someone give me a suitable good explanation for Valeria's weakness please. something like this but better: "Valeria doubting about his own craving or contradicting it depowers his LLT."

Don't really see what there is to say because you're right. He can't aim it at the Three Commanders or Reinhard because it's still his spear (unless he gives an exception) and the Spear didn't hit Ren, it hit Marie. So, not sure why this is an argument. It's still LLT.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

first and second disagree FRA. Third i agree due to it being LLT. The issue at the time was the commanders iirc were a part of reinhard and the spear would dodge anything that is reinhard or part him bending away. And the fact trifa's mentality is a weakness cuz ren didn't die per say and sorta missed him so that should be trifa's own weakness in his briah

 

[Infera28]

bump

 

[SleepyTBubble]

About the second one

The only thing you can give them for this is limited interaction with conceptual beings while in Briah but i am iffy on this part

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Yeah, Warren make sense here about 1st and 2nd points so i say i disagree with it too, rest is fine so yeah

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

The thing is Machina's conceptual attack isn't just a conceptual attack. It's conceptual erasure. There's a difference so it isn't really a counter-argument.

The first scan is saying that overtime Holy Relic develop a poison through accumulated "concepts". I think this is just referring to the fact that Holy Relics are created from extreme will projected on an item.

Second scan is the same really. It's more so the collective will overtime projected on an item that gives it power then literally eating concepts.

The third scan is legit but it refers to Briahs not the Holy Relics.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with removing 5-A.

 

[Warren_Valion]

The thing is Machina's conceptual attack isn't just a conceptual attack. It's conceptual erasure. There's a difference so it isn't really a counter-argument.

Except that's not how it's stated in the novel at all.

It's stated as, "Not only could it affect living beings and buildings - it could also end fire, lightning, and even thoughts and concepts".

It's not about the ability being conceptual erasure vs conceptual attacks - it adamantly states that Machina's power is special because it can affect everything, even things like thoughts and concepts.

So you are wrong.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I agree with removing 5-A.

That reasoning was debunked, Matthew.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

I also disagree with 1 and 2, but I definitely agree on 3.

 

[Infera28]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Warren

So what are the summarised conclusions here?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with removing 5-A.

That reasoning was debunked, Matthew.

Trex and EMC agreed it was wank and I believe on them far more than anyone else on this wiki with Masada.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Trex and EMC agreed it was wank and I believe on them far more than anyone else on this wiki with Masada.

Nothing against these guys, but unless Trex and EMC come here and debunk my debunking, then frankly, their "word" means jack shit.

And who you trust is irrelevant. You can't just shut down an argument without proposing a proper counter, that's not how debating works.

Believe or don't believe in the present arguments, not with someone's word.

The propsal for removing 5-A from the profiles is based on the belief that Wilhelm (and those that scale to him) are 5-A for damaging Meth, and that the scans posted in the OP refute this by stating that Meth is much stronger than what Wilhelm can affect.

The reason this line of logic is incorrect because Wilhelm (and those that scale to him) aren't 5-A for injuring Meth, but destroying his attack, The Jaws of Darkness. Meth's durability scales to 3-B, so the scans stating that Meth is > Wilhelm is a belief that is already represented on our profiles.

And thus, the proposal is debunked.

 

[Warren_Valion]

@Warren
So what are the summarised conclusions here?

The propsal to remove the 5-A keys from the profiles has been debunked because it was based on a misunderstanding on the AP reasoning.

The proposal to add concept manipulation to the LDO has been debunked as well. As it is heavily contradicted within the novels, and is taking figurative language too literally.

And the addition of a 1-A LLT for Trifa was agreed upon on the condition that a specific weakness is also stated, that being the power of the LLT depends on the emotional stated of Trifa. If he isn't emotionally stable, then the spears power isn't 1-A. This is supported by the same thing happening to Marie and her death curse in a different part of the story.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine then, although I would obviously prefer if the Masadaverse experts that Matthew mentioned give input here as well.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Okay. That is probably fine then, although I would obviously prefer if the Masadaverse experts that Matthew mentioned give input here as well.

That's completely fine.

 

[Infera28]

alright i will ask them for commenting here but i don't know if they have time or any interest for doing that.

 

[Infera28]

@warren

do you can write a suited explanation for adding as Valeria's weakness?

or do you think this one is good enough? "he has a tendancy to depower LLT due to his mentality and doubt and he can't aim LLT at Reinhard or his Einherjar"

 

[Warren_Valion]

Saying "tendency" implies that it is a common occurrence, which in most scenarios, it really shouldn't be, so I think something like this might be better:

"If Trifa is made too emotionally unstable, the 'almighty' power of the LLT can be diminished to the point where its aim and potency are drastically reduced".

 

[Trexalfa29]

What's with this totally arbitrary divide you put between jaws of darkness and Lui himself? The fundament is the same: they are made up of the mystery of countless nights. They are not dissociable, Lui=his darkness and Bey could only destroy the jaws due to the blood contract, with Claudia as an intermediary. The game is telling you Bey's available firepower is not going to cut it, not when Schreiber who has a lot more fares worse. If this doesn't get debunked, prepare for the absurdity that is "planet level EVERYONE" in Dies irae, which is absurd.

Similarly, this "conceptual poison" for Ahnenerbe has shit to do with Briah. Why would that be refering to Briah, when the concept of Ewigkeit's third degree hadn't been introduced at that point? That's speaking of origins of Ahnenerbe: regular objects which become sentient through accumulation of history/concepts/feelings (prayer and malice included) within them, similarly to Nasu's Conceptual Weapons. And this grants them the special capability mentioned during the bridge chase.

Also, the Spear in Kasumi's Route killed Ren. This is absolute fact. Marie being yeeted back to Twilight Beach does nothing to lessen this fact. And Ren's soul stayed in Valhalla for a while before Kemono-dono showed mercy towards Kasumi's pleas because of this.

 

[Warren_Valion]

>What's with this totally arbitrary divide you put between jaws of darkness and Lui himself? The fundament is the same: they are made up of the mystery of countless nights. They are not dissociable, Lui=his darkness and Bey could only destroy the jaws due to the blood contract, with Claudia as an intermediary. The game is telling you Bey's available firepower is not going to cut it, not when Schreiber who has a lot more fares worse. If this doesn't get debunked, prepare for the absurdity that is "planet level EVERYONE" in Dies irae, which is absurd.

Arbitrary? I think not.

The difference comes from the fact that Meth embodies the totality of his nights, while the Jaws of Darkness are each comprised of only a hundred nights.

There's a clear difference - one result is Large Planet Level, the other is Multi-Galaxy level.

The scans state that Wilhelm can't defeat Meth, but it also shows that he was able to destory the Jaws of Darkness at the expense of his entire soul stock + arm, that Glads regenerated instantly.

Mean the fact that we have Wilhelm (and those who scale from him) on the same level as the Jaws of Darkness, and not on the same level as Meth's entire being, is correct. The scans imply this.

Lui = His Darkness, that's true.

But none of Lui's attacks are equal to the totality of his darkness, each are comprised of a specific amount of nights.

Meth's Nihil Est Qui Nihil Amat works similarily, in which he takes 500,000 of his nights to make 500,000 layers to keep Machina occupied while he dealt with the LDO. He didn't make the nigh-infinite layers of night that comprises Meth's totality.

>Similarly, this "conceptual poison" for Ahnenerbe has shit to do with Briah. Why would that be refering to Briah, when the concept of Ewigkeit's third degree hadn't been introduced at that point? That's speaking of origins of Ahnenerbe: regular objects which become sentient through accumulation of history/concepts/feelings (prayer and malice included) within them, similarly to Nasu's Conceptual Weapons. And this grants them the special capability mentioned during the bridge chase.

Umm, I'm not really sure what's your stance here. Are you for concept manipulation, or against it?

>Also, the Spear in Kasumi's Route killed Ren. This is absolute fact. Marie being yeeted back to Twilight Beach does nothing to lessen this fact. And Ren's soul stayed in Valhalla for a while before Kemono-dono shoeed mercy towards Kasumi's pleas because of this.

Same as the last question, what's your stance here?

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I agree with 5-A staying and Trifa's Briah being 1-A.

 

[Trexalfa29]

The problem is that you keep insisting totality of nights=Lui's durability. It is not. Most of his feats are REGEN feats, not durability ones. And he has shitload of mystery to draw on for that. And guess what? Only one who scales, being able to one shot it all at once, is Reinhard (with the honorary exception of Machina). Those jaws of darkness just contain a portion of Lui's mystery but the thing is... they are not separate from him at all. They are just extensions, and extensions can suffer damage via Bey's attacks the same way Lui himself can, due to the blood contract. Lui is darkness, thus jaws are just manifestations of darkness that were grafted unto his nature due to mankind's prejudice. Becoming Einherjar did shit to let him harm Methuselah, this status just gives him borderline limitless amount of souls to draw on, but his "maximum output" at once remains 8,000. This is lower than even Schreiber's, who couldn't do lasting damage to Methuselah or his constructs in any significant way.

My point is that the "conceptual poison" has nothing to do with Briah. That's it. Whether you consider conceptual manipulation or not... don't care. It certainly is Nasu style Conceptual Weapon fuckery though.

Just pointing this out really.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Yeah that doesn't make much sense really. 100 nights condensed into jaws shouldn't be comparable to the totality of night. Obviously it'd be a part of him since he's night but I think the point is it isn't the totality of night it's just 100 nights which shouldn't be an issue to scale from.

Also no one is claiming that Holy Relics attack on a conceptual level anymore.

 

[Antvasima]

Trexalfa seems to make some good points.