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LDO Revisions

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Qliphoth_Bacikal

VS Battles
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Another round to the Shinza revisions~

Introductio
Before we get into this, I would like to remind everyone that this is based off entirely and taken from my blog I made HERE for this revision just like the past couple you have seen most likely. As you probably have skimmed through it, it WILL be a long read but it's both a thing I do and one I try to get to the point as soon as possible right after I start typing down what I will be saying soon.

That said, let's get on to the thread here.

Removal of Conceptual Attacks Resistances
To start things off, we have the LDO's resistances to conceptual attacks. That's nice and dandy and all, but here lies the problem: It doesn't have a justification. As in, there's nothing written for it for people to understand to what extent they're resistant against from this kind of attacks.

Reinhard's the only one known who has an actual justification to resisting conceptual attacks, that coming from Machina himself who states his very fists, his sole weapon in fact, are as good as trash against him. And those who are familiar with DI just enough should know that his fists are dangerous for even someone like Methuselah here to note of its power and his potential destruction from it. And again, Machina's are useless against Reinhard like said and linked above.

But of course, this is only Reinhard himself who has an actual justification. Granted it's now merged with EE as "Conceptual Existence Erasure" resistance but he has an actual justification for it nonetheless.

Now onto the actual purpose and relevance here, this part mainly started out of a question that asked if the LDO (well more like one of them but it relates to literally everyone sans Reinhard, who I may have to repeat here, HAS an actual reason people can know about) have conceptual attack resistance. ALRF, now going by as SleepyTBubble, said they shouldn't. Another user came on there and said that comes from their Holy Relics, which is stated here. However, ALRF/SleepyT said that the "concepts" in their Holy Relics takes up the form of a poison that negates/greatly hinders their Regenerationn, which comes to a problem as to what even is their resistance to conceptual attacks in the first place if their Holy Relics aren't actually dealing conceptual attacks but instead a poison that affects their Regenerationn.

Which comes up to my next part.

Note: Reference to the thread linked here.

Addition of Regenerationn Negation
Basically, Holy Relics are considered bad for anyone to get hit by it, more so if used against beings like the LDO themselves. And, as said above before, Holy Relics can apparently negate (or at least greatly hinder) Regenerationn. An important matter to mention here a bit first is that anyone of them with their Holy Relics are capable of regenerating even from their own soul alone as long as there's nothing hindering their Regenerationn as demonstrated by Shirou who, as a bodiless soul, usurped the Relics of Bey or Rusalka in Rea's and Marie's routes respectively, using them to reform his body instantly even while still inside them (since he was devoured by them earlier in those routes) and becoming an Apostle from there. This means just about anyone of them with an HR (Holy Relic) are able to regenerate even as just a soul. Having other souls also helps as it's used to heal from any injuries to their bodies (tho it's not much of a hindrance as anyone who reaches Yetzirah won't die from physical destruction nor from even lethal wounds as bad as this) to put their bodies back to full fighting condition.

But to get the actual point here, Holy Relics are very bad for beings like the Apostles themselves. While normally anything that WOULD harm their body or reduce them to nothing just their soul wouldn't do much as they just instantly regen their bodies back, fights between Apostles have shown that it can affect their Regenerationn pretty badly overtime. This is notably shown in Shirou vs Wilhelm, where Shirou tries to kill the latter with the newly acquired Relic of Rusalka and using them to enhance his Desert Eagle which, while normally something that shouldn't harm let alone kill Bey, left bullethole marks on his arm when he blocked them. Because it was a gun that was enhanced with the power of a Relic, Bey's arm still wasn't healed from it throughout their fight. Then ofc comes the major wounds Bey suffered that cost him an arm and part of his head to be blown off by Shirou, who in turn gets a hole deep enough to go all the way out his back. Both of them DID start to heal up but it was sometime after trading said lethal wounds and talking, and even then Shirou still had a hole in his chest despite healing up sooner than Wilhelm, who started to follow right after to the same speed as he was recovering.

Now while I couldn't find anymore concrete examples of this, just here alone in this fight tells us that injuries dealt by a Holy Relic can be lethal for other Holy Relic users, and even should they still be able to heal up it's hindered to a point that they can't heal/regen right away.

Addition of NPI
Most likely the one that's just straight to the point and no big talking, the LDO's Holy Relic's (once again) is related as this is their weapon when going on the hunt for souls and for fighting anyone (including amongst themselves). The kind of NPI they have is simply being able to attack souls with no body, which obviously should be taken as just them being able to interact with souls whether they have a body or not.

Although there is a possibility that this could just be another application of soul manipulation but it's something of note to add I guess.

Machina, I believe, also has more justifications of NPI, as he punched out Cain when the latter was using Beatrice's Briah which turns the user into literal lightning itself, and Interview has stated his fists can end anything whether it has a shape or not, which can include stuff like lightning and fire as well as concepts like darkness itself, which would make sense for him to have in order to end the "story" of any phenomena he hits. And ofc Reinhard has this as well by extension I assume.

Edit: To make things clear here, I'm not suggesting or implying that the LDO should have NPI like that of Machina's and Reinhard's. Those guys are on a league of their on what they can interact with compared to the rest, who can only affect souls with or without bodies (tho there seems to be more stuff for the rest outside of Machina and Reinhard perhaps).

Conclusion
TL;DR version:

  • Remove all LDO members sans Reinhard's conceptual manipulation resistances
Tally
Agree: 11 (Ionliosite, TISSSG7Redgrave, Ravenous4th, PsychoWarper, Ecstasy Amphetamine, SleepyTBubble, Archaron, Tony di bugalu, Magisinbad, Warren Valion, Monarch Laciel (but disagree for NPI))

Disagree:

Neutral/Inconclusive/Other:
 
Agree, I'd like to add some stuff too

Everyone should get Limited Invisibility scaling to Wilhelm's Yetzirah. His stakes appear invisible to those who lack supernatural senses as shown in these scans

Wilhelm would likely have Aura and Status Effect Inducement from this sca

Rusalka gets Pressure Points (idk?) from this sca

Ren would likely have Instinctive Reaction from this sca and this one. His range needs to be upgraded from melee range to "At most 20 meters" based on this statement from Rusalka who was analyzing Kasumi when she wielded the guillotine

I'll add some more soon
 
Ren's an Assiah ability so it should only be at that range when he activates Assiah

As for Wil's Invisible stakes i remember reading somewhere its his Assiah where he's mere killing intent manifests in the form of invisible stakes. Could be wrong on this one though

Ither things are fine though afaik
 
Alrighty~

I asked Monarch to come here so I'll wait and hear what he says. Long as there's no problems, this should be clear enough to apply...I hope.
 
Absolutely agree with everything here - looks fantastic.


Great job Qliphoth!

Oh, you might want to tally up the Agree-to-Disagree ratio.
 
I agree with everything except NPI for everyone.

Machina's fists should most definitely not be taken as the standard. Other LDO members may be able to hit souls, but they were unable to hit Methuselah's darkness.
 
That's...not how I even put it out as? The reason I mentioned NPI a lot for Machina was because he has a lot more range for it than the rest, who can only simply hit souls.
 
"Add Non-Physical Interaction to LDO (and some more for Machina and likely Reinhard) + Shirou and Ren"

That's how you put it, and you primarily justified it with Machina punching fire and concepts.

It's not necessary. Their holy relics allow them to hit souls, that's not nearly the same thing as being able to interact with all non-physical entities.
 
That's not how I see it. IDK how you read it so I can't see what the problem is for it.

But I guess only NPI would be for Machina and Reinhard then.
 
They were. We even have Wilhelm smashing through Meth stuff and all Willy got was only a simple AP/Dura boost. (Also infinite souls)

Also didn't Wilhelm fight against both Kei And Beatrice and harm then even in Briah form?

We also saw Kai fighting against Beatrice too and was def shown to interact with her lightning form
 
I'm just gonna move aside the NPI part for rn. There's even a reason WHY I put Machina and Reinhard in parenthesis for a reason. Maybe if I rewrite the OP to make it more clearer would be better. Otherwise I still don't see what's wrong with how I write stuff (then again, I'm not even surprised since this isn't the first time I have people misunderstand what I write)...

@Sleepy: For Wil vs Kei/Beatrice, I guess? I don't remember Breatrice's at all and Kei's had her trying to go full intangible to avoid anymore of his takes.

Kai did trade blows with Beatrice too, that one I remember.
 
Wasn't it stated that the only reason that Wilhelm could affect Meth was that Meth had Willy's blood in him from sucking Claudia's blood, who in turn sucked Willy's blood?

But regardless, affecting spirits still counts for NPI.


The LDO might not have NPI on the same level as Machina or Reinhard for being able to **** up thoughts and concepts and shit like that, but they should still have it. Honestly feel like NPI should have a type list.
 
@Warren: Having watched the same fights a few times over and over the other day, Wil did so yes. He even wondered out or stated that if he was capable of actually touching Meth with just 8k of his souls, Wolfgang would have surely already been maiming him.
 
I am obviouqly talking about stuff like jaws. The whole blood thing only allowed Wil to pop out a stake from inside Meth
 
Okay I'm gonna do a recap here then:

I got 11 agrees, 3 of which are staff and one of them is an admin. Pretty much I have almost all supports except 1 on the NPI, which apparently interpreted as me suggesting everyone should have NPI to the same extent as what Machina (and by extension Reinhard) when I know for a fact that'd be one of the most BS things to try and give everyone for AFAIK and heard and seen of DI.

IDK how else to really put that as I've just wrote on the OP but here's this and I'm not even gonna try arguing interpretations of my writing.

NPI via attacking souls: most of LDO + Shirou and Ren

NPI for the same above + more: Machina and Reinhard.

If this gets anymore misunderstood, I'm actually gonna get more offended of my writing comprehension.
 
@Tony: Again, yes.

@Sleepy: LOL. For the earlier ones about those fights, there's a possibility?
 
Alright I guess I'll just wait and go of to cool down first (already am though).

I guess the NPI is contested ish so far from Monarch so I'll wait around to hear what he has to say to all this again cuz I'm now tired from trying to clarify my...writing. I've said enough so I'm leaving it be.
 
Okay I think I'm getting a little impatient here by bumping this a lot sooner lol.

So it seems that the NPI got a lot more complicated not only from earlier here but of other stuff like Methuselah and like some other stuff that's hard for me to remember how it goes based on AL/Sleepy's comment with Kei vs Wilhelm or Kai vs Beatrice, so IDK how else to really go about with that beyond NPI for attacking souls for everyone (and more in depth ones for, and this is seriously the last time I'm being specific about towards, Machina and Reinhard) so for rn I'm putting that aside until a proper conclusion can be made.

Seeing as Concept resistance is to be taken off from literally all the LDO sans Reinhard (as said quite a bit) and to add Regenerationn Negation, could we start to at least add those for rn?
 
This should probably be fine.
 
@Antvasima: Since you're here and I don't think Monarch's on rn, could you kindly unlock the following pages for me here:

Reinhard Heydrich, Tubal Cai, Wilhelm Ehrenburg, Beatrice Kirscheise, Kei Sakurai, Valerian Trifa, Machina, Rusalka Schwageri, Eleonore von Wittenburg, Rot Spinne, Riza Brenner, Wolfgang Schreiber, Ren Fuji, and Shirou Yusa?

This is also good time for me to edit some existing stuff on the pages and I'll be up for a while to do some cleanups to the pages. I'm just hoping that no one attempts to make any edits while I'm doing the changes.

Edit: Actually just nevermind. I don't think I can edit all of them at one time rn as it's getting late over here. I might do this until the NPI matter is resolved instead, this way I have nothing else to discuss and I can do this with all matters finished.
 
Okay. You can ask for unlocking them later instead.
 
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