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7-A is invalid? That's new to me.

Mind elaborate? I wouldn't mind as PM if you don't wanna drag more problems to this thread.
I found it weird during my reread, but it's Infera who brought attention to it some hours ago.

Basically the explosion is assumed to have completely nuked all of Berlin.

Besides a random human soldier tanking it nearly at point blank and only being in a dying state from it (which you could chalk as PIS), the others members are litteraly seen scattered in different sections of Berlin after the explosion, fighting troops and talking to citizens.

I don't really care about most weird Shinza things here anymore tho, so don't count on me to actively debate or apply any kind of revision for that kinda stuff.
 
it WASN'T countered

also it doesn't matter if the destruction doesn't scale, since the point is that it shows that Methuseah being only the darkness of Earth is complete nonsense
 
it WASN'T countered

also it doesn't matter if the destruction doesn't scale, since the point is that it shows that Methuseah being only the darkness of Earth is complete nonsense
Wouldn't change anything since his tier is based on "density" being misinterpreted.
 
Please elaborate.
Basically the only thing that gives him his current tier both in AP and durability (besides environnemental destruction, which I'll come back to later) is that a single "night" (since Methuselah is powered by the history of night and darkness) supposedly "requires the destruction of half of the planet" according to his profile.

However the actual quote only says that "A single night was as large as half the world"; since half of the world is always in darkness/night. Nowhere does it say you actually need to destroy half
---
Another quote on the same screen is "His scale was too vaste, his history too dense", which some tried to use to say that it referred to the density of half the planet.

However this second one clearly talks about the density of his history, not of a physical object. One's history can influence their power under the 4th Heaven, with Rot Spinne's Yetzirah being pretty weak because the Warsaw Ghetto massacre isn't that old nor that famous; while everyone has belief about darkness and knows it since ages.
---
Regarding the "all of creation" thing it kind of clashes with the others descriptions of his darkness, which clearly puts its duality with light over the planet as a main focus.

And when you look at the statement itself, what it talks about isn't that Methuselah's demise would make all creation "return to nothingness", but that Machina's philosophy is that since everything will eventually reach an end, he doesn't care about ending stuff, regardless of the harm done.
 
Okay. I suppose that seems to make sense.

Your last image link does not work for me though.
 
However the actual quote only says that "A single night was as large as half the world"; since half of the world is always in darkness/night. Nowhere does it say you actually need to destroy half
Something half the size of the world is still Low 5-B

---
Another quote on the same screen is "His scale was too vaste, his history too dense", which some tried to use to say that it referred to the density of half the planet.
Considering it says that litterally before talking about a single night, yes, yes it's the same thing

However this second one clearly talks about the density of his history, not of a physical object. One's history can influence their power under the 4th Heaven, with Rot Spinne's Yetzirah being pretty weak because the Warsaw Ghetto massacre isn't that old nor that famous; while everyone has belief about darkness and knows it since ages.
Spiritual density is a measure of power, see every LDO and hadou/gadou god ever

It being able to be influenced by outside sources doesn't make it any less power

---
Regarding the "all of creation" thing it kind of clashes with the others descriptions of his darkness, which clearly puts its duality with light over the planet as a main focus.

And when you look at the statement itself, what it talks about isn't that Methuselah's demise would make all creation "return to nothingness", but that Machina's philosophy is that since everything will eventually reach an end, he doesn't care about ending stuff, regardless of the harm done.
tbf, Earth is center of the plot both in-universe and out-of-universe of 4th heaven stuff, so it makes sense that role has more emphasis put unto it

also
"Since all of creation would return to nothingness, he had no qualms about creating that void, and that was the very reason why he was the Transcendence of the ending."

Doesn't really sound much philosophy as much as meaning that "that void" created by deleting darkness would cause "return to nothingness" but since it would still happen it doesn't bother Machina.

also of note, "Worldly Order" could very much be referring to Mercurious' world as a whole since Masada use "world" it like that more than a bunch
 
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Something half the size of the world is still Low 5-B
The night isn't a Low 5-B object no.
Considering it says that litterally before talking about a single night, yes, yes it's the same thing
Assumption based on nothing.
Spiritual density is a measure of power, see every LDO and hadou/gadou god ever
It being able to be influenced by outside sources doesn't make it any less power
Still not referring to an actual physical density.
tbf, Earth is center of the plot both in-universe and out-of-universe of 4th heaven stuff, so it makes sense that role has more emphasis put unto it

also
"Since all of creation would return to nothingness, he had no qualms about creating that void, and that was the very reason why he was the Transcendence of the ending."

Doesn't really sound much philosophy as much as meaning that "that void" created by deleting darkness would cause "return to nothingness" but since it would still happen it doesn't bother Machina.

also of note, "Worldly Order" could very much be referring to Mercurious' world as a whole since Masada use "world" it like that more than a bunch
"Could". That's the issue. You theorise it means this in a context not quite fitting.

I read it more as Machina not caring whether the world ends or not, with the void referring to the nature of his power rather than Meth himself.
 
Something half the size of the world is still Low 5-B
There is literally nothing to prove that those "nights" have the same density as the planet as far I am seeing here.
It's like comparing a car-sized ballon to an actual car and claiming the former the same mass and density.
Night" is not a physical object, it's beyond me how you think Night is the same the planet.
Spiritual density is a measure of power, see every LDO and hadou/gadou god ever
What does that have to do with anything?
tbf, Earth is center of the plot both in-universe and out-of-universe of 4th heaven stuff, so it makes sense that role has more emphasis put unto it

also
"Since all of creation would return to nothingness, he had no qualms about creating that void, and that was the very reason why he was the Transcendence of the ending."
Again those quotes talk about the voids left by Meth dying, not Meht's actual power.

Y'all fail to bring one direct quote about Meth and his power and his to wordplay around it instead.
 
The night isn't a Low 5-B object no.
literally said to be as large as half the world

Assumption based on nothing.
basic reading comprehension, ever heard of it ?

Still not referring to an actual physical density.
And ?

"Could". That's the issue. You theorise it means this in a context not quite fitting.
Said could because i'm not very certain on that one specifically

Don't try to put words in my mouth

I read it more as Machina not caring whether the world ends or not, with the void referring to the nature of his power rather than Meth himself.
if there it ment any void created by Deus Ex then it would have said "the void", not "that" void. The wording is towards a void in specific, aka the one left by darkness being erased.
 
Everybody please try to be polite to each other.
 
It isn't a real life 50/50 ofc but in Shinza they consider it's half.
aside that taking his entire concepts literally
you will have well him being the multiverse concept of darkness, well most of the universe is darkness it self (outer space)

and well his durability and reinhard is what i plan on arguing for fully, his AP should be possibly to begin with as there are many intepretation of what it is, but his durability should have been well 2A
 
aside that taking his entire concepts literally
you will have well him being the multiverse concept of darkness, well most of the universe is darkness it self (outer space)

and well his durability and reinhard is what i plan on arguing for fully, his AP should be possibly to begin with as there are many intepretation of what it is, but his durability should have been well 2A
That seems as wanky as it sounds, especially with the scans presented and the context in the VN.
 
That seems as wanky as it sounds, especially with the scans presented and the context in the VN.
if it is required to destroy all of the nights in merc's world to harm him, how is that wank? it was stated multiple times that you either need to bring him to your level or well destroy all the nights to harm him
 
if it is required to destroy all of the nights in merc's world to harm him, how is that wank? it was stated multiple times that you either need to bring him to your level or well destroy all the nights to harm him
Except the nights aren't multiversal or anything. They just are the litteral Earth's nights.
 
just earth's night all the universe night?
Everything about Meth embodying nights, darkness covering half of the world, etc... is deeply tied to the concept of darkness in relation to Earth and the people on it.
 
Everything about Meth embodying nights, darkness covering half of the world, etc... is deeply tied to the concept of darkness in relation to Earth and the people on it.
this is well cause they are on earth and the only place it is confirmed people live in merc's world. i am saying meth is the darkness of the universe as stated
 
Sure, find a scan of a night being universal.
Sigh
he was the concept of darkness, not concept of earth's darkness
and yes darkness exists everywhere in the universe earth included, hence why him dying would cause the end of the universe
 
Sigh
he was the concept of darkness, not concept of earth's darkness
and yes darkness exists everywhere in the universe earth included, hence why him dying would cause the end of the universe
If that were the case, then Reinhard would be 2A, no?
 
Sigh
he was the concept of darkness, not concept of earth's darkness
and yes darkness exists everywhere in the universe earth included, hence why him dying would cause the end of the universe
Except the entire thing blatantly tells us that him moving the darkness as consequence of his actions would only affect Earth.
The only proof so far is about Machina's mindset and a single "all creation" statement which isn't fitting with multiversal shitz in context.
 
Except the entire thing blatantly tells us that him moving the darkness as consequence of his actions would only affect Earth.
The only proof so far is about Machina's mindset and a single "all creation" statement which isn't fitting with multiversal shitz in context.
you mean the saying machina erasing meth wont end just meth but all of darkness across creation cause well he is all of the darkness across creation?
 
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Except the entire thing blatantly tells us that him moving the darkness as consequence of his actions would only affect Earth.
The only proof so far is about Machina's mindset and a single "all creation" statement which isn't fitting with multiversal shitz in context.
Pretty sure that’s not true as even methuselah comments that there a lot of bad stuff would happen if methuselah was destroyed
 
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