Devil May Cry's Contentious Ratings

[Aetheric Pariah]

Off site for a while now, there has been a blog circling around regarding DMC and it's current standing (Universal-Low Multiversal). Hell, DMC is now straight up 2-C on the site now. I think it's best to bring the blog to the wiki officially beyond talking about it in some general discussions or fun and games threads i've seen it brought up in.

Death Battle Predictions: Hellboy VS Nero

(Djangor) (Joshski) (DekHead) (KirbyKid) (Phantom Falcon) Hellboy, the hellfire-born paranormal investigator of the B.P.R.D. And Nero, the s...

g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com

The debunk is towards the bottom of the blog.

Here's to 12 people ganging up on me

 

[Cyberblader90]

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

You poor soul. Many paragraphs come your way.

 

[Galens]

This was going to be seen here sooner or later.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I saw this blog before, oh boy. This is gonna be a bloodbath.

 

[RisingIons]

I was going to make a joke out of some of the Hellboy arguments but...

I'm sure most of these arguments have been debated to historical length in the past, plus its not really a CRT to begin with so I'll be surprised if any staff decide to spend their time on this.

 

[LordGinSama]

They'll definitely come trust me, considering how big this is.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I'm about to end this man's whole career

 

[DaReaperMan]

All right, now we must perform a summoning ritual for all the DMC Supporters

 

[KLOL506]

Not much of a DMC expert but some of those debunk arguments for DMC are just... ugh... bad. Real ******* bad.

 

[RisingIons]

In the odd chance that happens, lets talk about them scaling Hellboy to an entire suface wiping event's energy, like cross sectional area or inverse square law doesn't exist ....like huh??

"This is incorrect as while I will freely admit that Hellboy tanking the fire that incinerated the surface of the planet is the most impressive Hellboy feat"

Ok so said debater automatically threw his credibility away for anything else I didn't bother reading.

 

[KLOL506]

In the odd chance that happens, lets talk about them scaling Hellboy to an entire suface wiping event's energy, like cross sectional area or inverse square law doesn't exist ....like huh??

"This is incorrect as while I will freely admit that Hellboy tanking the fire that incinerated the surface of the planet is the most impressive Hellboy feat"

Ok so said debater automatically threw his credibility away for anything else I didn't bother reading.

You also forgot Hellboy's distance from the epicenter, if there is any to properly gauge.

 

[Theglassman12]

Welp, figured this was gonna come sooner than later, but before we start, I'd like to thank everyone in the DMC Group for helping out with this entire response, we wouldn't have gotten anywhere without their help, much appreciated. With that out of the way, let's start.

1. Pluto cutting the universe.

This argument has already been debunked here, here and here. So we might as well move onto the next parts of the arguments.

2. Merging feats (Mundus/Argosax) and separation (Sparda)

Here you can find the main arguments for realm merging in DMC entailing complete universal fusion.

Needless to say, once again the very text used shoots the argument in the foot:

“According to legend, a dark prince of the Underworld mustered a great army of evil and slew the former god of evil. Then the overlord planned to break through the thin veil separating the Underworld from the human world, uniting the land of eternal darkness with the world of light”

Break through the thin veil. So for those who are unaware, there is a dimensional barrier that divides both the demon world and human world.

“The dimensional wall between the Demon World and Human World can be said to be like a net. High-ranking Demons cannot come to this world unless favourable conditions have been met due to their power, but low-ranking demons are able to easily pass through this net.”

This is consistent even with statements in DMC 5 about the same barrier. Messing with the barrier can cause the demon world to “bleed” into the human world naturally, which is supported by the DMC 2 novel. In it Dante goes to an alternate universe where Mundus succeeded with his plan to remove the barrier, and the demon world begins terraforming the human world.

Mundus: The main argument against his feats are about “it being a chain reaction upon destroying the barrier” which is not only stupid but ignores a lot of points in the series.

To start with, the Demon World has never consumed the human world on its own, the only times something similar happened were dependent on someone to happen (Gilver).

Breaking the barrier does nothing except allowing the demons to cross easily to the human world. The scan they provided says exactly that “The dimensional wall between the Demon World and Human World can be said to be like a net. High-ranking Demons cannot come to this world unless favourable conditions have been met due to their power, but low-ranking demons are able to easily pass through this net.”

The other scan taken out of DMC 5 says the same thing: "Time was, these things only appeared on the mortal plane by possessing a wooden doll, lump of clay or something similar. Now? Those creeps walkin' around Red Grave are the genuine article. It's a sign that the barriers between the demon world and the human world are breaking down." Neither of these two scans remotely mention ANYTHING about an auto-merge of both realms, the thing that's most consistent with these two is again, the way they enter the demon world through weaker means.

There is also nothing about the demon world consuming the human world without the barrier. Not only does nothing happen to the human world once the portal to the demon world opens in DMC 3; further proven in the end of the game that everything is still the same shortly after the demon world closes at the end of the game, not only does the Hell Gates, which are stated and shown to be literal gates to the Demon world, not cause any form of merging/consuming whatsoever in any part of fortuna compared to how it was originally, but the Qliphoth tree, which is stated to have broken the dimensional barrier in DMC 5, and has been growing for the span of a month, have not done anything in the human world in terms of actually merging the realms together. The only times the merging was ever done was when Argosax and Mundus were actively trying to do it, so the entire argument of the Demon World automatically merging with the human world makes no sense.

Now, about Vol 2. Dante goes to an alternate universe where Mundus succeeded in his plan and fused the worlds together, it's not just some simple “terraforming”, the world went back to its primal state and as Dante puts it “...it's a halfway place, a realm neither human or demon” - Vol 2 p. 102.

So while we are told by the dmc 3 manga Mundus wanted the realms to be one, and DMC 4 uses the word “fusion” for what happened, it was a chain reaction, not an actual feat for Mundus. The same applied for the novel Mundus (as explained in his section). The official translation for the dmc 3 manga also notes nothing about realm fusion, only the notion to rule them as one. For argument’s sake, let's say fusion did happen. We have no method of fusion then or exact timeframe. As detailed in below for Argosax (and parts in the Void Mundus section), messing with the veil/barrier causes the demon world to bleed in naturally. So there is no direct evidence of Mundus literally fusing realms as an AP feat.

Now that the chain reaction and terraforming arguments are done let's jump to the main part, the fusion. The first scan used says explicitly what Mundus' intent was, to unite the eternal world of darkness with the world of light, this is not only corroborated by DMC4 but “shown” in Vol2, as the world went back to its primal state.

The blog uses the official translation for this but the DMC feat blog already explained how the TL was wonky and a better translation would be something like this “"The king who appeared in the kingdom of darkness said: "What is wrong with reuniting two worlds that were once one?". From then on, the darkness tried to cover up the light, while the light struggled and tried to escape."

Another TL is here:

だがやがて闇の世に現れた王が言う

元は一つだったこの世界再び統べんとして何が悪い?

その時から闇は光を覆わんとし光は闇から逃れんと抗った

But then a king appeared in the dark world and said.

What's wrong with trying to reunite a world that was once one?

From that moment on, the darkness tried to cover the light, and the light fought to escape the darkness.

Basically, it was all meant to fuse the worlds together and go back to the primal original world. Now onto the last part:

We have an example of the fusion with Argosax, his sole half-sealed power was leaking through the seals and passively fusing the worlds together, basically the power they exuded naturally was enough for it to cause the fusion of the worlds again. With Mundus we can assume he either did it with raw power (like Argosax) or with some reality warping (which still scales to their raw power).

To top it off we have an approximate time frame thanks to all the lore the people at G1 ignored. 2000 years ago is that Mundus was born, rose to power, killed Pluto and became a king, same time in which the whole war started and unless you want to say humans were capable of fighting off demons (which is impossible for normal humans, let alone humans 2k years ago) it all happened extremely fast.

To summarize this:

• Mundus fused the worlds together
• Doesn’t matter what method he used, it is all is his own power which he can use to attack and defend himself, thanks to Demonic Energy, something that they themselves have added to their research of Nero to being legit "scale to physical strength"
• The barrier between the worlds does nothing but keep the demons out of the human world. Or at the very least hinder their full power as they have a pseudo limiter activated when they try to enter the demon world.
• The demon world doesn’t consume the human world automatically, and it needs some sort of external force forcing it to.

Argosax:

As for the Infamous Argosax argument, this is more a feat for the demon world and not directly Argosax. We are directly told it's the demon world that will consume the human world.

Arius saying "The world is already warped. Everything that belongs to the devils will eventually revert to its original form. Even you will betray your upbringing and turn on the humans” does not inherently prove the entire universe was being warped (In general dmc suffers from people generalizing “world” to mean Universe every time it is said despite books/manga/games/anime having different writers. An example of differentiation would be dmc 2 referring to the human world as the earth.) The only areas shown affected are the island the game takes place in and the sky overhead. We are directly told it is only affecting the island:

"Things have gotten extremely weird in the southern township of Vidu Mali. The city no longer extends from the southern tip to the middle of the island. The entire town has been warped by the approach of the Demon World into a viscous infinite circle, and what was once recognizable now connects together in ways you'd have never thought possible.”

For starters, the whole Demon World consuming the human world on its own has already been debunked above.

But the scan is right, the demon world will consume the human world and that’s because of Argosax’s power, his power is leaking and he is breaking the seal already, something you can see at the end of Dante's disk as despite the ritual’s failure argosax breaks the seal.

The scan itself backs this up: "Matier summons the legendary devil hunter, Dante. Having known his father Sparda in previous years, she is certain that his skills will be necessary to stop the evil and prevent the demon world from consuming our dimension."

Matier knows about Sparda and knows about Dante defeating Mundus, knowing this she decided to call him, call for his power to confront Argosax in case of the seal being broken (which is what happens at the end)

The next part is about the world (which is always used to describe the universes) and earth (to directly say planet), let's be clear, world is always used as the universe, the human universe and the demon universe, and rarely if ever has it being used as other thing, earth on the other hand is pretty clear, this has been pretty consistent through the years. On the other hand, they also claim it's only the island that is being affected which is wrong, nowhere in the scans it's stated that the “island is the only thing being affected”.

Now, as to why we can see only part of the island is because it's a game, they didn’t create it to be seen from a space portion or something like that. Doesn’t even matter as the scans they posted itself proves its the human world (universe) that is being corrupted:

“The world is already warped. Everything that belongs to the devils will eventually revert to its original form. Even you will betray your upbringing and turn on the humans”

Basically the worlds are getting fused into the primal, original world once again this along with the part of “...consuming our dimension” is pretty clear on the meaning and the context. This is the same thing Mundus did.

It was also addressed here, the original universal upgrade

"This is just one of the four globes which must be activated to open a gateway out of this warped version of Lucia's hometown.”

The appearance of Phantom in dmc 2 is used to argue the entire timeline is being affected by argosax. The effects are shown to only affect the island and are stated to be the work of the demon world, not Argosax. Argosax’s involvement is further put into question by one of the artbooks, which states it was Arius who warped the island and opened a door to the demon world. The same artbook further reiterates it is only the island that is in danger. The only argument in support for Argosax being connected to what is occurring is that it’s death seemingly undoes the warping effects on the island. The only thing that changes is the color of the sky (shown in Lucia's ending). If we are to believe that Argosax was involved, it would need to have first messed with the dimensional barrier between the barriers, which is a chain reaction as the realms merge naturally then. Argosax dying would stop the dimensional temparing, thus ceasing the effect. It is not an actual AP feat.

As proven above, the effects aren’t only in the island so I'm not going to bother with that argument anymore, but let it be clear that Phantom appeared in Mallet island, something that doesn’t exist anymore since it exploded in DMC1, an island that was far away from anything else as it changes positions all the time, further proving the effects aren’t “island only”.

The effects of the demon world affecting the human world on its own was already debunked above too, Arius opening a portal is meaningless and irrelevant as the door was opened at the very end of the game, you know, the one that leads to Argosax while the effects happened all the time without one.

As for the last scan, it never states the island is the only thing in danger, it's only stated that:

1. The protectorate only defends the island, this is further emphasized in Before the Nightmare. The reason why they defend the island is because the gaps in the seal are frequent there and thus demons are able to easily cross in that place, the clan works there to stop any demon that crosses. Before the Nightmare p. 49-50.

2. The original plan was to defend the island from Arius who controls the Uroboros Corporation, the same corporation that controls the island. The idea was to stop Arius and take the arcanas before he was able to do the ritual, Dante fights demons head on while Lucia goes for the Arcanas. This is further explained in the scan they linked above:

"Lucia has been training under the guidance of her mother and fellow Vidu Mali protector. Matier. Although her skills are still developing, the demons have suddenly invaded Vidu Mali once again. Matier feared this would happen, since the arrival of the evil sorcerer Arius several years before...

Now Matier must find a way to protect vidu Mali from evil once again, but she is too old and her protégé is not yet skilled enough to take on someone as powerful as Arius. Matier Summons the legendary devil hunter, Dante....

While Dante takes on the devils of Arius directly, Matier sends her daughter Lucia to the shrines of Arcana throughout Vidu Mali, in an effort to secure the ceremonial items before they fall into the hands of evil."

So, finally we have Argosax involvement in the whole ordeal and as I have debunked above, the demon world on its own does nothing, there is no chain reaction and the barrier between worlds does absolutely nothing except stop demons. The effects go beyond the island with Phantom and Griffon being prime examples of this, and of course, there is more change than just “the sky going back to normal”.

Once three of the four arcanas are retrieved by lucia is when Argosax starts breaking free from the seal and starts creating the whole fusion, exactly as Mundus did in the past.

To prove the above point, this is Sacrilege. Sacrilege creates a distortion that is used to bring the demon world closer to the human world. You find 3 in Dante’s mission in Arius’ office building and 2 in Lucia’s mission. This indicates Arius has these items all along.

The sacrilege does indeed bring the demon world closer to the human world but this is only to get the demons to the island, all the demons that appear there were summoned by Arius and it's very likely he used these items for that. This is shown in the mission 16 with Dante, the longer he uses the items the more demons start flooding the building which is how Arius got his army of demons. This coupled with Argosax fusing the worlds together causes the building to get corrupted, something we even see in lucia gameplay. In case these things caused the worlds to fuse together, or that the demon world somehow consumed the human world on its own, all this corruption would have occurred ages ago, instead it happened only when Argosax power was leaking, breaking free from his seal.

Arius is stated to have been who warped space on the island, not Argosax. This would be consistent with it being stated demons used a tear in space to cross over to the island. It is also stated in the english dmc 2 guide that Dante was called to seal a rift between both worlds that had been forced open. This is all consistent with Aruis having tech/spells that can cause dimensional bfr. In short, Argosax did not merge any realms, It was Arius who opened a rift, in which the demon world began bleeding into the human world.

Next part is wrong and out of context too, Arius is stated to have managed to warp space and open a portal to the demon world, this is exactly what happens in mission 18. At the beginning we can see a portal open meaning Arius' efforts were not in vain, he managed to warp space and open the door to the demon world. The tears in space-time are something consistent in the island, hence the protectorate existing and defending only the island, something I have already addressed above.

These tears are something Arius took advantage of and most likely with the use of the sacrilege he was able to summon stronger and tougher demons, demons Lucia isn’t able to face off.

Now the scan specifically says how demons were the ones to force open a tear in the human world, not arius, not only that but as Before the Nightmare specified, those rifts are quite common there.

This is not exactly consistent. Arius has indeed BFR spells but not tech, his only time doing this was to send Lucia to an alternate dimension and she gets out by killing the demons there but the pathway out only comes after defeating the demons guarding it, this is consistent with the demons being able to force tears open. In short, Arius didn’t open any rift till the end of the game, the rest has been debunked already.

Going back to this scan, and the four lights “moving the demon world”: the lights saying the movement of the demon world is intensifying isn't referring to the entire demon world literally moving, but rather it's referring to Dante being able to leave the distorted space in mission 16. We are told the activation of the last one would let Dante access the demon world, and the game even says the four lights will “open a door”. (stated again here)

Consistently stated they open a door/make a portal which is strangely consistent with the Sacrilege does as well. Any actual movement of the demon world would be partial bleeding in of it through the dimensional barrier being messed with, not the entirety of it.

Narratively it also wouldn't make sense for Argosax to have merged the realms as that would mean he would need to undo Sparda’s seal, which we know from DMC $ is still intact years after DMC 2. So no, Argosax did not merge the realms.

This part is the odd one among everything, not only are the four lights supposed to open a portal to the demon world but it does another thing when you actually activate all of them. They literally drag the demon world closer and closer to the human world. Every single orb that you activate says this and the final orb nails the point down by saying you can reach the demon world after the previous ones say the movement of the demon world increases. Btw, this all happens in mission 14, not 16.

For context in this mission the fusion between worlds corrupted the island in a way that it became a spatial paradox, this leds Lucia to ask Dante how the end of the street leads to the beginning of it and vice versa, you are told by both the title card and the guide that activating the four lights will open a sealed door to get out of the street. The problem is that the sealed door that opens is only to get out of the loop, at no point there is a portal to the demon world or something like that.

The thing is, sacrilege doesn’t open any portal/door while the four lights only open a pathway to the building Arius is in. The movement of the demon world is being caused by Argosax. The barrier is irrelevant once again. The demon world doesn’t consume anything on its own.

The seal Sparda placed has literally no bearing on anything except keeping demons out (which has already been explained above). You don’t need to undo anything, to fuse the worlds together.

The Eclipse:

Lastly, Argosax did not move the moon. It was a solar eclipse that was occurring prior. Arius tries to obtain the Arcana in order to release Argosax, take his power, and become a god. The Arcana are four holy relics used to seal Argosax, and by uniting them at the solar eclipse, a gate to the Demon World will open. This is confirmed in game:

Lucia: "We have until the Sun is completely eclipsed. But...how are you going to enter the building? The entrance is..."

Lucia: "What...? The ritual was incomplete... but the door to the Demon World is..."

Lucia: "Once you enter the Demon World... you may never be able to return...I'll go... I'm expendable..."

The following argument is used to justify the moving of the moon as a feat:

“The game starts in the afternoon for the first mission but everything after that takes place at night, with various shots of the moon being to the right of Arius's tower(and this is viewable during mission 2 in-game) and it's the only position we know of the moon until mission 9 for Lucia (the scene is only shown in her route) were we see this showing the moon no longer behind Arius's tower but the interesting part is coming up. In mission 10 for Lucia and 14 for Dante we see the Sun and moon suddenly in this position despite the Sun not being visible literally minutes prior due to it being night and now a sudden eclipse is happening, the sky is no longer red, and the entire island is warped drastically.”

The main reasoning behind G1’s arguments, for the lack of a better term, straight up headcanon. The very fact that the Moon’s movement, in both angles, were calced to be vastly higher than a natural Eclipse already shows us a very simple truth: it isn’t a natural phenomena. Ignoring said speed by simply saying “we should assume the timeframe isn’t literal for stuff like this, and it’s being sped up” is absurd, as on the very same cutscene, without any cuts, literally Arius appears performing the ritual, while the moon is moving far faster than normal, and guess what ? He isn’t sped up, the argument doesn’t work, not even close. This link was to show the eclipse was already happening, but ignores Lucia saying “the ritual was activated because of me”, the ritual that triggered the Eclipse in the first place, right at the same time. Her other quotes are also out of context, for example:

Lucia: "We have until the Sun is completely eclipsed. But...how are you going to enter the building? The entrance is..."

The eclipse, up until the point were the ritual started, wasn’t a problem and wasn’t mentioned, there wasn’t a “time limit” focused on it, that only happens because, again, the ritual with the 4 (Actually 3, as Dante trolled Arius) Arcanas had already started, further pointing how the event isn’t natural. I didn’t understood the meaning of putting the other two quotes, so I’m not going to address them here

DMC2 guide’s also has a specific section that mentions said event, a quote that was discarded because:

“I don’t see the paragraph header as exactly being damning evidence. It doesn’t even talk about the eclipse in the paragraph, despite it addressing why the warp is being caused in detail. There, the eclipse isn’t mentioned, which would suggest the title isn’t supposed to be literal.“

You can find their google doc on the moon argument here.

It chooses to ignore the eclipse being mentioned on the title for apparently not being on the text itself, but fails to see that said text is about the consequences caused by the whole events of the second game, the ritual to open the seal for Argosax starts, even if incomplete, and his incoming presence causes the eclipse, all of Argosax’s long distance feats are quoted numerous times in the game and its official material as the “approach of the Demon World” (and similar statements), the feat is just addressed on that line. The title is, literally, a direct mention of the Eclipse and it links this with the DW’s events, done by no other than Argosax. Questions like “why they never talk about the moon” are baseless, since the title literally talks about that

Now sure, going by DMC2’s environment, for the most part the moon and the sun could be blocked by the clouds, but we literally see money shots of the eclipse, both from Lucia/Dante's perspective, and Arius' perspective, so the cloud arguments don't work.

Sparda:

As for Sparda separating the realms, he does it via a seal, which is explicitly hax and not AP. The realms don't auto merge when his seal is weakened. One might argue the barrier brought above is the seal, but that is contradicted by the veil existing prior to Sparda defeating Mundus as we are told here. Given this, it’s likely he isn't separating anything physically, just further hax reinforcement to prevent demons from crossing over to the human world. There is also the fact that all of Sparda’s seals are hax based. Sparda used his own blood, along with the blood of a human priestess (Lady's ancestor), in conjunction with his sword and a mystical amulet. He poured his demonic energy into his beloved sword to close the door between realms, the Temen-ni-gru. He also used the Yamato to close the Hell Gates, and the functionality of Yamato is spatial manipulation and the power to separate demons from humanity. We are also told he used the Yamato to split the worlds, which is consistent with a blade fragment creating gaps between the dimensional barrier between the realms. He also helped seal Argosax in the demon world, and sealed Mundus away as well. The philosopher's stone in the first game is also used to unseal the demon world. None of these seals are AP feats.

So to start with this, his seal isn’t a “keep the demon world in a bubble” kind of thing. These guys even posted it so let me bring it up again: “The dimensional wall between the Demon World and Human World can be said to be like a net. High-ranking Demons cannot come to this world unless favourable conditions have been met due to their power, but low-ranking demons are able to easily pass through this net.”

His seal was meant to keep demons away from the human world, letting nothing go through it, of course with time and the actions of some people, said seal has been weakening, allowing for tears in space-time to open and demons to cross. To do this he of course needed to separate the world that Mundus had brought back into existence, this is the separation Sparda made, the one Arkham draws parallels with in the manga when recounting the tale of the Black Horned Demon God.

With this out of the way, sparda had 2 options, either use some reality warping or to exert physical power and separate the worlds again. This brings us neatly to the whole point of the Devil Sword Sparda, Sparda's blade is specifically stated to be his power, numerous times in fact. Yamato and Rebellion was revealed to be a part of Sparda's power before he split his powers into 3 blades, meaning any and all Yamato feats would scale to Sparda because it's a fraction of his true power. The DMC 3 intro also mentions the same story, the english version mentioned that he sealed the portal between realms so the demons couldn't enter, with him being sealed off too, but here's the japanese version of that very line.
昔一人の悪魔が人間のために戦ったって、そして剣の力を使って魔界を封じ込めた一自分の強大すぎるカと一緒にね

A long time ago, a demon fought for the sake of humans. He was the one who used the mighty power of his sword to split off the Demon World, and then his own all-powerful force afterward.

They specifically refer to it as his power, nothing about hax whatsoever, meaning this would once again, scale to his overall AP. There's even more proof for the sword itself being granted strength, in the DMC 5 series recap Vergil is stated he wants greater strength by finding his father's power, with Arkham doing the same thing. Further proven in the very game this statement is said. DMC 4 even goes the extra mile by Sanctus flat out saying "The Power of Sparda, why won't you give me strength, am I not worthy?". So yeah, Sparda splitting the demon and human world with his own sword is part of his overall strength and not just hax related.

Now, they also brought up the thin veil that existed when Mundus amassed his army and this is wrong, Mundus wanted to break that veil and invade the human world, something he actually did and gets confirmed by the manga as he fused the worlds again into one.

Saying seals are hax based is like saying fire burns, irrelevant and unnecessary.

There is more context for the sealing of the tower, the temen ni gru was a tower created by humans to reach the demon world with the intention to get power, this of course backfired and became one of the main highways between the worlds but not the only one. Sparda, fearing his own ever growing power, decided to seal it along with the tower.

The rest are just examples of sparda sealing powers, which we've already addressed above about it stating to be his actual strength/power, and not just a specific hax thing.

At the very end they mention the philosopher’s stone and the context for this is simple. Dante needed to open a gate/portal big enough to let him cross to the demon world as the “net” (seal) sparda had placed wouldn't allow him to cross otherwise. As you can see in the scans and in game, Dante didn’t undo the seal Sparda placed, instead he opened a portal big and stable enough for him to cross.

Finally as they said, none of them are AP feats as those are his sealing abilities, his power comes from the fact that he separated the worlds Mundus had fused.

To summarize:

• Sparda separated the worlds Mundus fused, hence his AP on top of being able to best him in combat and his legions.
• Sparda has some ******* broken sealing abilities
• Sparda's power through his sword is also stated to be from his own raw power and strength as stated numerous times in the games. So saying it's only a hax feat and nothing more is dishonest and ignores a good chunk of scenes that says otherwise.

3. Mundus making a dimension

The infamous “feat”

There’s not a single guide or character comment that says the place this final fight takes place in is created by Mundus. In fact, it’s guides and character comments that say just the opposite.

As Mundus flapped his wings, the temple instantly lost its existence and the world was enveloped in a sea of stars. Only the two sides were facing each other in the vastness of space.

The below image offers the two different translations of this guide page.

The realm that Dante and Mundus are in is described as either “a realm beyond human comprehension” or “A mirror world beyond human knowledge”

So, big mindsplosion reveal. This description… is referring to the demon world. Not some world that mundus created, but the demon realm itself. These descriptions of “beyond human comprehension” actually fall in line with other descriptions of the demon world.

But then you might go thinking “Well how do we know this is the demon realm and not another realm?” The thing about the demon realm, which is supported in the above image, is that the demon realm is made up of a bunch of circles (Dimensions) of hell, and Mundus likely just took Dante to one of these circles. For instance, Berial is the king of one of these realms. Furthermore the japanese game guide says dante was transported to this realm:

Likely the most controversial feat, despite being as clear as day a Universal example of power.

As Mundus flapped his wings, the temple instantly lost its existence and the world was enveloped in a sea of stars. Only the two sides were facing each other in the vastness of space.

Now, the G1 blog starts by saying no source mentions the realm being a creation of Mundus himself, which is literally contradicted by the very next quote/link shown there. It mentions how Mundus envelops the place in “a sea of stars” after the temple was left behind, couldn’t be more clear than this, but here we are explaining what’s literally written there. To further back their claim, they use quotes such as “a realm beyond human comprehension” or “A mirror world beyond human knowledge” to actually link this realm to the demon world, which puzzles me. One of, if not THE biggest foundation of their claim is that, in their opinion, Mundus was never stated to be the creator of the realm, here we see a huge double standard, as Mundus realm was never stated to be the Demon World to begin with. Why, for them, one works and the other doesn’t ? It shall be a mystery for me. Even the quotes for both are completely different, one realm is stated to be beyond human comprehension, the other is about warping their minds by being there, nobody is being mind haxed for not being able to comprehend something, not without something to back it up, but more importantly, even if both realms had the same effect (Something that, again, isn’t the case), why would that imply they are the same ? We have a quote saying Mundus created it, ignored for unknown reasons, but one (false) same effect was enough for proof ? I gotta question that logic. With Mundus being the King of his section of the DW, with his death leading to its destruction (explanation incoming), and the Demon World Energy on his control, him having his dimension with one or other similar element to the DW wouldn’t be something really surprising, despite, again, not being the case

For the stars, we also have this argument:

> After meeting Mundus here, he is sent to the Demon Emperor Space Heaven and enters the battle with the first form of Mundus.

Alt trans: After meeting Mundus here, you will be transported to the Demon Emperor's Space Heaven to fight the first form of Mundus.

After mundus explodes in this world, Dante just.. Kinda appears back in the tower (which isn't explained) but later Mundus rips through a hole all ****** up from exploding and says “The gate has been opened!” and if he came from the same dimension he just fought Dante in then that means the gate he just opened from is the demon world, as was his goal the entire game. It is argued the sigils he uses here are what he uses exclusively for dimensional travel, but they are most likely to bypass the barrier between the worlds, meeting the “favorable conditions” he needs to cross over:

“The dimensional wall between the Demon World and Human World can be said to be like a net. High-ranking Demons cannot come to this world unless favourable conditions have been met due to their power, but low-ranking demons are able to easily pass through this net.”

This is consistent with this statement saying that when Dante sealed Mundus, he also sealed a breach between both realms.

One argument for creation is that stars appear after the portal opens behind Mundus and are not immediately present. Looking at the scene, there’s really nothing to indicate this. More stars appear as the effect expands across the room, but going off of the interpretation that it's a portal, this is because those stars were obscured by the edge of the portal (there's a glow effect just within the outer rim of it, and the only blank spaces are areas covered by that effect), and became visible as it got wider.

And to finish, the G1 mentions how Mundus uses sigils when doing dimensional travel, something that we don’t see when he creates the realm. In conclusion, yes, Mundus did created a dimension as battlefield against Dante

“Mundus likely just took Dante to one of these circles”

Likely > Mundus flapped his wings, the temple instantly lost its existence and the world was enveloped in a sea of stars ? Also, like it was shown on G1 blog, the place is called Demon Emperor's Space Heaven, which just further shows it is his personal realm, not the Demon World. Where the feat was done, in the Underworld Temple, is already inside the DW, why would Mundus teleport Dante to the DW if they are already in the DW? And if he made the whole universal thing inside the Underworld, that would still be a universal feat.

The whole next paragraph builds its case on one assumption: Mundus coming back to Mallet Island directly from his realm (where he fought Dante), and uses this to further claim the realm and the Underworld are one and the same, but not only the claim itself is absurd as both are different realms (explained above), but it still relies on a assumption, one that if taken seriously, contradicts the other statements about not only Mundus being the creator of the realm but also being named differently and being created at that moment for their fight, so it’s a bad assumption at best

Now onto the kamiya tweets portion of this argument. The real big issue from Kamiya saying “Universe” is that multiple vs debaters are literally putting suggestive phrasing and words in his own mouth. For those not in the know, these are typically referred to as “leading questions,” where a person will ask something in such a way that they will get their desired answer regardless of if it is or not.

This actually ends up backfiring, as Kamiya not only has a reputation for being a massive twitter troll (only on occasion of course) but he doesn’t say “He created a universe” or, “Mundus created this universe” he just says “Universe.”

Here's the tweet.

Which to be fair, if we go with the interpretation that this is the demon world, then it is a universe. However, Mundus didn’t create a final universe battleground for his fight with Dante, it was a universe that already existed, which is why Kamiya says “Universe” because.. It is. This is especially aggravating because each time he’s asked this very same question in an attempt to goad him to say “he creates this universe” he just sends the tweeter back to the original post.

Kamiya also stated what occurred was a transition from the temple to space:

“By the way… temple goes into space…”

Kamiya also hasn’t had any input on the canonicity of events in the series since he left. Itsuno would be the person who could give clarification, but hasn’t on this specific topic.

Kamiya did not answer the question, he only said the word "universe" which is essentially a non - answer to the question and borderlines on being a non - sequitur, meaning that he confirmed nothing. If he actually wanted to say that Mundus was universal he would have simply answered "yes" or another word which would have made connective sense, like he said Jubileus without both of the eyes of the world was universal, which means you could scale Bayonetta to universe level if you wanted I guess?

Kamiya will often give one-worded answers to these type questions without further explanation. Here, he doesn't give a definitive yes or no to whether or not Mundus could destroy the human world.

Kamiya has also gone on record years ago saying that asking him about dmc is pointless, as it is no longer his property:

Some people might bring up Kamiya helping with the Hype trailer for DMC 5, however that trailer is purely promotional. Kamiya hasn’t had an authoritative position for dmc in nearly two decades.

Lastly, Kamiya’s words on twitter can be very messy. He utterly despises VS centric questions.

About Kamiya, the general rule is if Kamiya hasn't blocked you or responded in a trollish way, he probably means his answer. An example would be giving details on Dante's life:

Translations for Kamiya’s other tweets about Dante and Trish’s living situation : DevilMayCry (reddit.com)

With that said, Kamiya has been asked about the Mundus sequence before, and I would like to re-examine his answers.

When asked whether the sequence was accurate, Kamiya responds with "universe"

He later gets asked if the sequence is real, and responds by relinking his old universe answer

When asked once more if what he said was correct, he says to refer to his old answer

This paints a picture of consistency, at least to his stated intent for the scene. Keep in mind that staff that worked with Kamiya mention in the 3.1.4.2. book about the intended space scenes, and the sequence is flat stated as having happened in the Japanese game guide, which was released years before these twitter questions. The idea of Kamiya being a “troll” just chooses to ignore his actual serious answers, using arguments like “it’s just one word” to claim that it can’t be used, as if the length of the answer is what makes it valid or not, some twisted logic only useful for desperate moments or for when his answers don’t serve your scaling.

• Mundus Dying:

Mundus dying only affected his castle, not the entire demon world.

I want to start by saying, nice way to crop images and leave context out, it definitely helps us.

There are four scans used to “debunk” this and I am really without words for it. The pure hypocrisy of using a kamiya tweet as proof while making an essay moments prior trying to diminish them as nothing but trolling is baffling, this along with the scans cropped and the context ignored would be enough for me to just leave it at that and say these guys are being obvious liars, but since I already started and wasted enough time I will continue here.

Starting with the top left scan: "Underworld collapsing" the title should be enough but let us continue "Beginning in the hall of Mundus, Dante has exactly 5 minutes to reach the entrance of the underworld before it collapses, or he dies."

The whole thing is specifically saying Dante has a time limit to get out of the demon world or he dies due to it going kaboom, that’s crystal clear.

Now with the second scan, top right: Here is where the context starts being ignored, if you have played DMC1 you will know that Dante opens a portal to the demon world in the castle, he enters a mirror dimension and in that mirror dimension he "breaks" the seal sparda placed to get into the demon world. To top it off this part they emphasized so much happens 3 missions prior to the demon world collapsing.

Like I said, context is missing.

Now onto the good part about this scan: "Dante defeats Mundus and prepares to escape from the collapsing underworld." As we can see this is exactly what the guide from 7 years ago said, pretty consistent stuff if you ask me. And if you've seen the previous screenshot on their 4 scans, and read the top right scan, you'll notice the word collapsing underworld doesn't have the word underworld being shown, how conveniently cropped that seems to be.

Now with the third scan: Once again the ignore context. I will never know why people take this shit seriously.

This is what the whole page has to say:
魔帝ムンドゥスの最期の咆晧
トリッシュの死、
永い闘いはこうして終焉を迎えた
様々な想いが去来する胸/胞をおさえ
ダンテは古域を後/復(?)にする
古域もまた、最期の時を迎えようとしていた

トリッシュの最期を看取ったダンテは
手向けのアミュレットと魔剣を残し、
振り向かずに走り始めた。
古城が激しく鳴動する。崩壊がたまっていた。

The Last Roar of the Demon Emperor Mundus
The death of Trish.
This is how the long battle came to an end.
Various thoughts and feelings come and go in his chest.
Dante returns to the old world.
The old realm, too, was approaching its final moments.

Dante, who took care of Trish's last breath
He left an amulet and a magic sword for her.
He began to run without looking back.
The old castle rumbled violently. The collapse was accumulating

If you, dear reader, have been giving enough attention this is exactly when Dante gets out of Mundus dimension, as the page says “Dante returns to the old world” (this old world clearly being the demon world), “the old realm, too, was approaching its final moments” and this part is just pure confirmation the demon world was going kaboom with Mundus dying.

Finally the last part: “The old castle rumbled violently”, of course and you can see this in game, everything is shaking, last but not least important “the collapse was accumulating” the final nail in the coffin, the world was ending.

I have to be fair, I was told the quality is quite bad, some kanji could be wrong but the core idea is the same, the demon world was going to be destroyed.

And finally the last scan, Kamiya: I already pointed out the hypocrisy of denying twitter when it doesn’t serve you but also using it when it does, but i’m also just going to copy paste what our blog has to say about this “Another counter that some people use against the legitimacy of this feat (including our very own Matthew) is the fact that Kamiya rejected its legitimacy on Twitter. However, Kamiya was only involved with the creation of Devil May Cry 1, and after that, Itsuno took the series’s reins. Therefore, Kamiya has no authority to reject information given to us on Devil May Cry 4, and his word here is automatically discarded by default.”

All in all, this is pretty much a fact, any attempt to deny it is just pathetic.

Whether it be guides or kamiya, only the castle is ever specified to collapse. And the final nail in the Mundus uni coffin, an official dmc 1 guide puts the entirety of Dante’s final missions under “Underworld,” meaning that technically speaking Dante is in the underworld (demon world) during the entire last portion of the game. Even when he and Trish fly the plane out of the island the castle is inside of, which really is the only thing that’s like, collapsing and ends up blowing up at the end.

It also doesn't make any narrative sense for a complete collapse to happen. Other demon kings have died, and the demon world still remains. The prior demon king/god Mundus killed Argosax, possibly Abigail, and nothing implies that the demon world would have collapsed If Urizen had died either.

Now about the guide putting the last part in the underworld section, this is obvious, its the end of the game and the large part of it happens in the demon world, they won’t make another section saying “the human world/ island/ castle” that’s dumb and a waste of time, space and resources when only very last 10 minutes happen in the human world, hence all of them being in the same section.

The last point is the dumbest one so far, not all demons are the same, they are all different, having different powers, moves, abilities, etc. Mundus isn’t made of a ton of different demons, argosax isn’t a half demon like urizen, abigail isn’t a blob of tendrils covered by stone, etc.

It’s completely stupid to think the rest of demon kings/gods share the same powers just because they are kings.
Not only that but we actually get a taste of Mundus' connection with the demon world in the second novel.

Note 1:

DMC 5 confirms mundus got his power from eating the same fruit that urizen ate.
The fruit is shown to be able to make illusionary dimensions:

This is an illusionary space created by the Demon Tree based on the memories of the Demon King (Vergil).

It is a space created by the demon tree based on the memories of the demon king (Vergil), and is the only place where the mind is at ease.

(DMC V ARTBOOK)

So while not confirmed, if mundus did actually make the space it could be an illusion world like the fruit example above.

The fruit being stated to create illusions is completely irrelevant when Mundus is the one doing the feat, and if it somehow was an illusion, why exactly would a sea of stars be made on top of the battle field being far larger than it was before, on top of every single guide saying it's the demon emperor's space, everything points to him actually making the dimension, not him casting an illusion.

Note 2: narrative


Not only this argument is another failed attempt but it tries reusing the same “castle collapsing” argument that was already debunked. Dante implication isn’t about dying to the island, it's about dying fighting Mundus, a Mundus who is dying as well, the whole interaction is about Mundus wanting and going to kill dante and Dante saying Mundus will die there as well (considering he is already dying that’s a fact on his part). Also that was NOT the same dante that defeated mundus, because he had the Devil Sword Sparda amping him when he fought Mundus, and he left it to Trish right before he attempts to escape the underworld collapsing.

At the very end, right after sealing Mundus, it is plausible considering that Dante exhausted all his power fighting Mundus back to back and using the small power Trish gave to seal Mundus and as the second novel explained, a demon without juice is weak, very, very weak.


Note 3: Dante getting back

In no piece of media, whether it be guide books, the game, novels, etc is it ever explained how Dante got back from the space fight to the demon temple. Mundus just starts falling apart, and then the scene goes white, second later Dante is back in the temple right next to Trish. This is usually argued to mean the whole universe disappeared and that Dante then appeared there.

Issue right off the bat is assuming the universe disappeared. It was only confirmed Mundus did:

“…Mundus, sensing his doom, wriggled in pain and disappeared into the void. This was the end of the battle...”

So how did Dante get out then? We don't know. The Sword of Sparda may have been responsible but that sadly is an assumption. It's just an unknown that has no answer. What we do know is there is no evidence for assuming universe erasure.

While it's true that the way Dante got out is somewhat vague, it's pretty simple if you stand still and think for more than a second, that there are two options, each of them are equally as valid.

In verse we are told the perfect amulet is used to travel between the demon world and the human world, not only that but they are part of the Devil Sword Sparda after they awaken its real form.

“Devil May Cry, Items — Perfect Amulet: "The combined form of Dante's pendant and Dark Knight's pendant. It allows entry into the Underworld."

Not only that but Trish actually uses that, she comes back from the demon world and post cutscenes, in 2, 4 and 5 we see she has the devil sword sparda as her main weapon, a weapon Dante left with her in the vault.

The other option is that Dante got BFR'd back to the underworld. The proof comes from Void Mundus, which you guys admit to being a BFR back to their original world, as explained in the Void Mundus section. If Void Mundus' death, who's just Mundus but one with the demon world, would cause a BFR upon his death, why would normal Mundus be any different when the same thing happens?

Either way, both the sparda with amulets, and Mundus' BFR upon death arguments are equally valid to use to explain how Dante even came back in the first place.

4. Void Mundus

Void Mundus is argued as having all the power of the demon world, as its nexus and heart.

This ignores plenty of context from the novels. For one, there was still demonic energy present.

"This place was originally the human world. It's been corrupted beyond recognition now. A weak current of magic runs through it. But it's strong enough for us to resume our native forms" (Novel 2, p. 125).

Second, having all demonic energy from the demon world doesn't make you automatically universal, its argued the energy from the demon world made the human world, which is contradicted by it being stated it was the light from the division of the original universe that became the human world, nor do we have any timeframe for this creation at all.

This doesn’t ignore any context, not only that but we never claimed he has all of it, he “IS” the source of the demon world energy. Him being it doesn’t mean it stops existing in the rest of the world. Hence why he is called the “heart” The quote from the novel doesn’t help them in any form.

Now, he is the source of the demon world energy, the same energy that casually spawned the human world. This isn’t contradicted, in fact it's directly stated the world was born of darkness (darkness being the demon world). The next scan gives us more context: “"unending darkness, a crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two."

Basically the world was the demon world, from that the human world was created and after some time Pluto came and split the worlds. This energy is being produced by Void Mundus itself.

The statement is about how it all suddenly came into creation, time frame is irrelevant here, it's like saying the big bang is 4-C for taking an unknown amount of time to create our universe.

The usage of “nexus” and “heart'' are vague and never really elaborated on. Nexus can be the focal point of connection. Being the heart doesn't mean much, given Mundus’ death doesn't erase the world as some claim. We know this because it was confirmed Dante and Beryl got bfr’d back to their own world.

On to “nexus”

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/nexus

https://sentence.yourdictionary.com/nexus

In the second novel, the demon world and human world aren't fully merged, rather the human world has been terraformed by the demon world bleeding in.

The usage of heart is pretty obvious, it means that Mundus is the center, the source of the demon world, that’s why as the demons get close to him their power starts replenishing to the point where it oversaturates their bodies with power and all of them start falling down.

Nexus in fact has been explored and explained in the series, its a point, a connection forced by Gilver, it forces the creation of the demon world upon the human world. This is something different than Argosax and Mundus fusion.

As for Void Mundus and the nexus, as the definition says; “"The central and most important point or place"

Void Mundus as the “heart” (source) and Nexus (most important place) is the most important point of existence in the world, everything that existed has stemmed from the energy he now gives birth to. Same energy that casually gave birth to the human world.

Now without Mundus that world is going to collapse, exactly like the original mundus and his relation with the demon world. Indeed they were BFR’d back to their world but as Dante said:

"We've got to get out of here," Dante said sternly. "This place is more dangerous than ever with the king dead. Let's get what we came for and run”

This is because, once again, the whole world is going to collapse now that Mundus is dead, exactly how DMC1 handled Mundus’ incoming death as the trigger for the Demon World to collapse, only stopping after he was sealed instead of killed, with no such luck in Novel 2, the world won’t hold.
In fact, the world has been fused, this isn’t some terraforming as I have explained in the Mundus merging section, it's the plan Mundus had from the start, to fuse the worlds into the original world and govern them as its only absolute ruler.

Dante killing mundus means nothing ap wise, as a void has no mass, and we don't actually objectively know if mundus himself is the nexus (which we have established above as unquantifiable)

A being having no mass means nothing, by this logic any and all spirits in fiction who have any power statements can't be used because they lack mass. What’s important here are his feats, he just like the original mundus fused the worlds together again, he is the source of the demon world energy, the same energy that farted a universe into existence just because it can.

We also know for a fact that Mundus is the nexus, the heart/source, the most important thing in existence because of what he is. Literally showed that above.

Griffon mentions that they are at the “Kings keep” and then later mentions that it is the nexus of the underworld's mystical energy.

Tldr, we don't know how much energy void mundus actually has, whether or not he actually is the nexus, his death does nothing to the realm, and his explosion isn't a feat for Dante because Void Mundus is literally intangible and has no mass.

Griffon mentions they are close to the demon keep, later Dante is the one that realizes they are close to the nexus, this is once again because they are getting close to Mundus himself.

Tldr, we know a lowball of how much energy void mundus actually has, he is the nexus and the heart and his death was going to cause the whole thing to blow up just like the original one. Being a void and lacking mass is a completely stupid argument to be used in fiction, especifically when we know for a fact the guy leaks enough energy to casually create a universe.

5. Beastheads

There are 3 arguments for the beastheads:

• Beastheads shake the “world”
• Beastheads embodying time
• Beastheads being stated to be able to reshape the world

The beastheads “shaking” is noted to only affect a building, and world here obviously doesn't mean the universe given it mentions aspects of the planet such as the ocean. Even if it did shake the planet (it didn't as people would have noticed across the globe if that happened), that would be only a small country feat without further context.

The beastheads “reshaping the world” is explicitly reality warping hax that never is actually done or elaborated further on.

Beastheads do not fully embody time, as their destruction does not affect time notably in any way, shape or form.

Before anything I have to make sure everyone knows we aren’t using the beastheads to prove universal power, as their feats are mostly hax and tier 6, but they have shown feats, under special circumstances, that surpasses even the god tiers, we’ll talk about those later on.

Once again, this statement is being taken out of context. The “shaking” feat comes from another passage in the novel, here is the actual quotes:

“The world shook. The immutable laws of physics wrestled with forces intent on ignoring them. It was the birthing pains of a creature from a dimension anathema to our own.” DMC Vol2. p- 83

Another TL would be:

“The world is trembling. As one historian put it, this world is so fragile in its foundation that it cannot accept beings that do not follow its laws. So what would happen to the world if an alien being were to be forcibly inserted?”

Now, this is one of the extremely rare cases where World doesn’t mean the whole universe, context is needed for this:

"This is pretty quiet for the end of the world." A deflated Dante said, coddling Ebony and Ivory. "I expected something more, somehow. It's taken the wind out of my sails." DMC Vol2. p- 83

“ Dante didn't seem to notice. "I'm not saying this is bad, as far as the ends of the world go. A little too gloomy, maybe. I guess we should see what this guy's made of." DMC Vol2. p- 85
Dante, who at this point has been familiarized with actual universal threats is just bored and disappointed by the beastheads powers. Further showing this isn’t meant as the whole human world shaking, rather just the planet.

His next argument against this is “Even if it did shake the planet (it didn't as people would have noticed across the globe if that happened”

I don’t have to point out the sheer stupidity of this, you don’t need some hype man, a group telling you about how awesome something is to know what it is and what it does. Not only that but the novel isn’t about “what humans think or feel”, it's about Dante and Beryl and their adventure together, almost all the time you are seeing things from their perspective, not some random human across the globe.

Finally he is right, this feat is small country level, here in the wiki we treat it as such.

Now, I hope you remember I said the beastheads have feats that go beyond god tiers in special cases, this is when they have a host.

For context here, Dante had been trapped by Chen in a device that absorbs/destroys demonic power, something he has been using for decades to study demons as it preserves their lives.

Chen had a theory about how demons eat humans as fuel for power and replenish demon’s power, even going as far as giving power on par with Sparda:

“Chen had thought that the Beastheads would make him Sparda's equal. He'd envisioned harnessing the statue's power to become immortal and to assume complete mastery of the demon world.”

Dante as a demon and one who has one of the strongest wills in the series is capable of harnessing said power, he got those powers when the beastheads bit him along with the powers the hosts have.

“And in that moment, he and Dante both understood the reason why the Beastheads had never assimilated any of the demons that had carried it. It was the same reason Dante was able to carve his way through the gel coffin and stand in front of Chen. "The Beastheads eats us humans and replenishes you demons. It's like a power transformer for souls!"

"Probably." Dante shrugged. The power that now imbued him felt neither good nor evil. It simply was. Whoever wielded it could reshape reality to its own design, for better or for worse” DMC Vol2. p-179

The beastheads not only replenished his own power but gave him more power, power to change the world as they see fit and as Dante sees it is pure power, neither good nor evil.

This once again does not matter what kind of power is as demonic energy works for everything. This is shown immediately after Chen eats the statue, he gained power superior to that of Sparda and fought Dante and almost killed him.

Finally this last part is correct, the beastheads does not embody time, they represent time, something completely different.

As explained, one head represents the past, another the future and the last one the present.

This is more explicit with the ability to watch the future, the past and the present. Dante himself experienced this when he saw the past, the war, a young Mundus and Sparda, Ducas who saw the future (just like chen was doing moments prior) and Dante who himself probably is able to see the future but just like the novel explains, he has no knowledge or training for this.

6. Nightmare destroying the demon world

Nightmare is stated in the dmc 5 manga to be able to destroy the demon world.

However a game guide with lore given from the perspective of Dante says the time frame would be indefinite.

"However, as a result, it seems that an evil killing machine that even the creator did not anticipate was created, becoming a dangerous existence that could threaten the stability of the Demon World if its powers were to be released indefinitely.”

It also specifies it is the stability of the underworld nightmare would affect. Given Nightmare's own movement speed is quite slow, and its destructive capacity is quite lacking, making this statement unquantifiable.

Giving nightmare the benefit of the doubt that the cave was somehow super durable, his next best feat is also lacking in aoe. He causes an explosion and slightly craters the ground with a punch. He lacks both the speed and aoe to make this statement have a possible quantification.

There are numerous problems in the Nightmare section, inside and outside the DMC verse. Outside of it, there is a blalant AOE fallacy with quotes like “his next best feat is also lacking in aoe”, and “He lacks both the speed and aoe to make this statement have a possible quantification”, as we are all aware, any fiction tends to ignore the principle of conservation of energy and showcase many powerful characters with low destructive effects on their surrounding area, some of them (few, to be exact) have some sort of explanation, like Dragon Ball with Ki control, but that’s not really necessary when the series itself possesses numerous blalant feats usually without much destruction, if AOE was necessary, DMC (and most verses) wouldn’t reach anything beyond Tier 8. The “slow movement” speed completely ignores the very quote showed on G1, as it mentions that Nightmare’s movements were restrained by Mundus, but even the idea of speed being necessary also puzzles me, as his powers can affect the whole DW dimension structure (scan in a later paragraph), which is a feat that doesn’t rely upon the usage speed

“Timeframe” can’t be a problem when the Demon World is infinite in size, as explained in the section on the infinite size demon world.

That also takes care of the stability/destruction argument, any of them, in a Infinite Sized dimension, is Universal. But looking into more quotes about Nightmare, including the whole paragraph that was missing from the G1 blog, and the new game Peak of Combat, we’ll see that he isn’t limited to only the stability

"正 直 、 俺 も こ の 粘 つ く 、 の よ う な 化 け 物 を 、 悪 魔 の 一 種 と し て 考 え て い い の か 判 断 に 迷 う と こ ろ だ 。 魔 帝 が 心 血 を そ そ い で 完 成 さ せ た 魔 界 の 生 物 兵 器 で 、 そ の 思 考 回 路 も 能 力 も 、 す べ て は 敵 対 者 を 殺 し つ く 、 す こ と だ け を 目 的 と し て 創 ら れ て い る 。 だ が 、 そ の 結 果 、 創 造 者 で さ え 予 想 も つ か な か っ た 悪 な 殺 機 械 が で き 上 が っ た ら し く 、 無 制 限 に 力 を 解 放 さ せ る と 魔 界 の 安 定 さ え 担 る が し か ね な い 危 険 な 存 在 に な つ ち ま つ た 。 そ こ で 、 マ ヌ ケ な 魔 帝 は 大 あ わ て で 、 こ い つ を 配 置 し た 地 点 に は よ 走 を 抑 え る た め の 拘 束 具 紋 章 と リ ン ク し て 力 場 を 発 生 さ せ る 拘 束 文 様 を セ ッ ト で 設 置 す る 八 メ メ に な っ た ワ ケ だ 。 た し か に 非 拘 束 状 態 の ナ イ ト メ ア の 力 は 凄 ま じ く 、 ゲ ル 状 の 肉 体 は あ ら ゆ る 攻 撃 を 受 け つ け な い 。 さ ら に 、 そ の 内 部 に 亜 空 間 と も 言 う べ き 異 世 界 を 生 成 し て 、 こ こ に 引 き す り こ ん だ 相 手 の 記 憶 力 ら 生 み 出 し た 魔 物 の " 影 " を け し か け る 、 ま さ に 悪 夢 め い た 能 力 を 発 揮 し て く る 。 だ か り と 言 っ て 拘 束 文 様 を 発 動 さ せ れ ば 楽 勝 っ て わ け で も な く 、 防 衛 本 能 が 高 ま っ て 硬 質 を し た 巨 体 か ら 、 さ な が ら 軍 事 兵 器 の よ う に 多 彩 な 攻 撃 を 繰 り 出 し て き や が る 。 こ い つ が 暴 走 し て 魔 界 が 滅 び ち ま え ば い い の に っ て 、 ホ ン ト に 思 う ぜ !"
Translation:
"To be honest, I'm at a loss in judging whether I should consider this sticky dark monster as a kind of demon. It is a biological weapon of the Demon World that the Demon Emperor completed with all his heart and soul, its thought circuits and ability are all created solely for the purpose of killing an adversary. However, as a result, it seems that an evil killing machine that even the creator did not anticipate was created, becoming a dangerous existence who could play a role in the stability of the Demon World if its powers were to be released indefinitely. So, the Demon Emperor was in a big hurry and at the moment when this guy was arranged, a restraining tool was placed to suppress its movement──that was the reason why a set of restraint patterns that generate a forcefield by linking with eight emblems was set. Certainly, the unrestrained Nightmare's power was terrifying, and its gel-like body does not accept any attacks. In addition, it creates a different world inside it which can be called a subspace, exerting a truly nightmare ability to cast the "shadow" of the demon that was created from the memory of the opponent who was pulled in it. If you could call it a restraint pattern, it wasn't an easy victory and its defense instinct increases and its body hardens, attacking with a variety of attacks like a military weapon. I wish this guy would run off and have the Demon World perish!”
1)The first highlighted sentence in the paragraph talks about how indefinite release of Nightmare’s power will play a role in the stability of the Demon World. I laugh at how G1 thinks this is some sort of anti-feat. Obviously a being capable of realm destruction would cause instability just by existing, because that is what the text directly says. The mere removal of seal/chains will allow Nightmare destabilize the Demon World, not unlike Dragon Ball characters shaking the world around them by removing restraints or not holding back, only in this case it's Nightmare destabilizing the entire Demon World. Which would come under significantly affecting infinite structure feat.
2)The very quote says the DW will perish under Nightmare’s powers, which would be its complete destruction. This is wished by the developer himself that the Nightmare "perish" or destroy the Demon World itself. Which shows that the developer themselves have faith in Nightmare’s abilities to do as stated. And obviously this is the Demon World which is perishing, not the population or society, so its universal destruction blatantly not life wiping.
The Peak of Combat scan:

冥界 据说魔王创造了一种强大的武器他甚至担心它会摧毁 他自己的王国,封印了他的力量来阻止它。凭借他巨 大的力量,他可以毫不费力地举起整个冥界的结构或 摧毁它。 只有与她的创造者相媲美的存在才能超越他的强度。 一件武器将成为任何实体的噩梦,无论是活着的还是 死去的。

V1: The Underworld

The demon king is said to have created a powerful weapon that he even feared would destroy his own kingdom, and sealed his power to stop it. With his immense great power, he could effortlessly lift the entire structure of the underworld or destroy it. Only a being comparable to her creator could surpass his strength. A weapon would be a nightmare for any entity, living or dead.

V2: Underworld

The Demon is said to have created a powerful weapon he even feared would destroy his own kingdom, sealing his power to stop it. With his great power, he could effortlessly lift the entire structure of the underworld or destroy it. Only an existence comparable to her creator can surpass his intensity. A weapon will become a nightmare for any entity, whether alive or dead.

V3: In the underworld, the demon king is said to have created a powerful weapon he feared would destroy his own kingdom, sealing his power to stop it. With his great, great power, he could lift the entire structure of the underworld without difficulty or destroy it. Only an existence comparable to that of her creator can exceed its intensity. A weapon would be a nightmare for any entity, alive or dead.

In any translation, the two feats are solid: Nightmare can destroy the entire structure of the Demon World, as well as lift it. These are very, very clear Universal feats of power and lifting strength being stated, again, to Nightmare. One of, if not the biggest lore detail about the character is him being a demon with enough power to destroy their world, consistently stated on multiple DMC media even with different levels of details, but the feat is there, and is the more direct one among all of them.

7. Savior making a dimension

For this feat, it’s theorized that the power of the savior is described as making a “nightmarish recreation” of the game's level Ferris Hills.

“Nightmarish” itself gets paired up with the idea of it being a “nightmare” or a “vision,” but in this context, the area that’s specifically stated to be recreated is Ferris Hill’s. This is a location in the game where Nero fights demon king Berial, resulting in the destruction of the portion they fight in. So it likely gave them the floor again to fight, with each time Nero rolls the dice up what’s referred to as “stairway” to heaven or hell which gives it the impression that it’s just taking him to different dimensional pockets, rather than it being attributed to the saviors own power, as that’s not explicitly stated to be created by the savior.

The stairway to heaven or hell is clearly talking about the entire board game area, it's literally shaped like a stairway, where you have to go up each step in order to reach Sanctus to stop the Savior from doing anything. It couldn't have made it more blatant than that. How do you jump to the conclusion that the Savior's dimensions aren't made by himself and are just dimensional pockets when you earlier in the same paragraph admit to it being a creation?
“Nightmarish” itself gets paired up with the idea of it being a “nightmare” or a “vision,” but in this context, the area that’s specifically stated to be recreated is Ferris Hill’s.
Even the scan you use flat out say it's a nightmarish creation, meaning the Savior, who's controlling the dice game, is making these realms to begin with.

So pretty much the game just makes it seem like dimensional travel (with parallel universes existing in dmc that would make sense) and the demons themselves seem to be goading Nero to beat them in order to progress.

The being that's goading Nero to strike them down is the DICE itself, not the demons that Nero fights, the Dice itself talks to Nero the first time you see it explaining how the rules of the dice game works, explaining to you that you need to strike the dice in order to progress to the next area. And once again it talks to Nero doing the same thing at Mission 19. Hell when Dante shows up in the first Dice game, he destroys the Dice itself, and there's no ghostly voice that appears whatsoever, Occam's Razor would point to the fact that it was indeed the Dice itself that was speaking to Nero when talking about the game, saying otherwise with no proof whatsoever is mind-boggling.

And if it did recreate anything then the Ferris Hills location itself was recreated rather than an entire universe, otherwise it would’ve made mention of it. It doesn’t even say “the entire world was recreated” or “the universe was recreated” it just says Ferris Hills.

We have never once used the Savior as an actual feat for Universal, the main reason why everyone has a High 4-C rating in the first place is because of Savior, and it's from the fact that he made a pocket dimension with a sun inside of it, something you guys admit is an actual creation.

It doesn't confirm that they're literally inside the Savior. It doesn't confirm that the Savior created them. It doesn't confirm if they're real or illusory / mental. And it doesn't confirm anything else, either. Some Heavens are at night, some Heavens are centered in a room. We just don't have enough information.

Nero in that entire mission is inside the Savior and is inside a nightmarish creation of these areas, there's no mention anywhere in the game that says that they were sent to an alternate reality at all. Occam's Razor would point to the fact that the Savior made it if it was inside of his body and there's statements of these areas being a nightmarish creation, you need to prove that these are actual alternate realities as opposed to creation because you haven't shown any scans whatsoever to back up your points, just "We don't know if this specific thing happened" because reasons.
Two, comparing Saviour to Beastheads in saying BFR'd Nero to Alternate Timeline is fallacious on many levels, not only is Saviour incapable of even basic space-time BFR, the thought that it can BFR and reverse BFR to alternate timeline with precise idea as to where to drop Nero in time-point is absolutely baseless.
Even Beastheads isn't capable of that accuracy, not to mention Beastheads is sole possessor of that ability with deep lore and mechanics behind why that is. In short Saviour is incapable of BFR thus the dimensions didn't already exist somewhere outside the timeline. It was created as said in-guide and seen in visuals inside Saviour itself.

It should be also noted this statement (recreation) comes from a Prima guide, which is not the most reliable for feats or lore.

How the hell can you go out of your way to claim that the Prima Guides are not legit source for feats and lore, when in your own blog, in the Sparda Physiology google doc that you've made, you linked a Prima Guide scan to argue that Nero and co. can resist Energy Absorption? This is peak double standard right here, and you have no right claiming this isn't legit while also using said information for your own research. But let's ignore this blatant double standard and pick apart this reddit thread.

• The guides being made with an early build does not prove that the information in these guides are automatically wrong, the scan for the savior here, in a Prima Guide, is not wrong whatsoever, that sequence of events is 1 to 1 to a tee. Nero fights the angelo enemies first, just like the guide said. The second platform being identical in terms of color coded spots, with the green and white orb in the corners, is 100% accurate to the final product, on top of needing to role a 6 in order to move to the next area on your first dice roll. Berial being the next foe to fight, as shown in the Prima Guide, is 100% accurate to the final product. There are no changes or alterations from this part of the game, so the reddit's point on how "early versions of the game is what the guides are based off on" doesn't work here.
• The only example this guy mentions on how any of these games have incorrect information in their guides is from Brady Games' FFX-2 guide, not Prima Games btw, those are two completely different companies at the time so that argument doesn't hold any ground here for Prima Games guides.

Hodgson moved to LA and worked on his first strategy guides at GameFan -- for games like Super Mario 64, Soul Blade and Doom 64 -- under the magazine’s GameFan Books division. He flitted among various publishers and magazines until 2000. He called Prima, at the time one of the biggest strategy guide companies (its main competitor, BradyGames, would later be bought by publisher Penguin Random House and folded into Prima). He sent Prima his Metal Gear Solid guide, and they assigned him Armored Core.

• This same article that the reddit posts references also has this little gem right here.

Hodgson seems to always go above and beyond. His humor is often self-deprecating, but he’s also proud when he talks about some of the things he’s accomplished within the limited medium of strategy guides, like the note he received from Hideo Kojima about his Metal Gear Solid guide in 1998.

“He loved the guide. He liked the fact that I'd put box-outs for the history of the forklift truck in the first level,” Hodgson said. “Strategy guides were usually just ‘go here, do this, go here, do that.’ I wanted it to be a bit more of an 'official mission handbook,' we called it.” Kojima said he’d shown the guide to his mother, who didn’t really understand video games but of course knew what a book was.

• If Hideo Kojima himself, the man behind Metal Gear Solid, approved of his guidebooks for his OWN GAME and had no issues showing it to his mother, I think it's safe to say that his work is more than reliable enough to be used. Also side note, games like Skyrim, Fallout 4 and the Witcher 3, open world games aren't remotely comparable to linear games like Devil May Cry, where you can find everything much faster than open world games where there's endless ways to go and not linear level designs to explore, just wanted to point out that little Apples to Oranges comparison there.

8. 4D demon world

Demonic world energy being “4d” isn't a thing. Stopping time/messing with space time is not inherently 4d, and the blog assumes Void Mundus’ death destroyed the parallel universe, which didn't happen. Dante got reverse bfr’d back to his original universe in a manner similar to the beastheads.

Okay, to start this part the demon world energy does not only stop time, as the blog puts it: “The Demon World Energy is capable to warp the space-time in a Universal scale,can create time paradoxes,can affect not only the present, but also the past and future and is capable to warp the entire of the universe”

Of course if you read the Argosax section, we debunked their attempts at hand waving this away. And of course, all of this happens because Argosax is fusing the worlds together. This fusion is messing with the fabric of space-time of the human world, something that here in the wiki is considered 4D, something that starts from Low 2-C.

Low 2-C | Universe level+: Characters who are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums of a universal scale. However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either:

A) Equivalent to a large extra dimensional space. That is, a higher-dimensional "bulk" space which embeds lower-dimensional ones (Such as our universe) as subsets of itself, whose dimensions are not microscopic / compactified.

Since the demon world fits the second criteria while the human world fits the first one it's safe to say this works easily.

Demon world fits in a sense that it works as the membrane the human world is floating in since the human world is nothing but a piece of the original world of darkness which is the demon world.

On the other hand, the rest are examples of demonic energy messing with time and/or space and they are correct, that’s messing with only 1 temporal or spatial dimension, something that isn’t 4D and that we've already removed from the blog, and have been trying to get out and will likely result in a thread to get it taken out (if it hasn’t already).

As for Void Mundus, we already explained and debunked their arguments, you can go back and check them again or check the regular mundus part as some of them are the same contextually.

9. Infinite size demon world

Here is their entire response regarding the infinite size demon world.

Let's go with the manga, the text isn’t just “flavor”, if these guys bothered to source their points they would have linked the complete manga page, these guys also happened to use a japanese raw text from us that flat out said the demon world is infinite so… yeah. This darkness is the demon world, its directly stated to be that: “The darkness became the realm of demons”, the next page further confirms this:

"But one day the lord of the dark world said..."

"These realms were once united, so why not rule them as one?"

"From that era forward the dark fought to control the light and the light struggled to defy the dark"

All of them refer to the demon world as this darkness.

At no point in the series the darkness refers to something else but the demon world. Implying it means “they can’t see the end” is wrong considering 3 demon gods were able to mess with the whole thing, demon gods that mess with space and time when doing this.

Now we know they are separate time-space continuums, this is pretty obvious and we have used some scans about this in the whole blog for a while now but let me bring some.

• The samsara is used to restore rifts in time/space in the demon world
• The gigapede literally only made his way to the human world due to rifts in space-time
• Oranguerra literally only crossed because a rift in space-time
• A rift between the worlds allows demons to cross
• There is even a dimensional wall between the worlds (that does nothing to the demon world mind you)

There is more, like Mallet Island having a ******-up time passage due to its deep connection with the demon world, the demon world messing with time/space when Argosax was fusing the worlds together, etc.

I know that “unending” can have some different definitions but the context here is clear, it’s about the universe, the demon world universe. There is no way to twist it without ignoring context.

Now they also said this “The Demon world might also have an edge. The Unsacred Hellgate, the edge which divides the Demon World from the Human World, seen in the finale to Devil May Cry 3.”

And this guy ignores context yet again, the area is called “the edge which divides the demon world from the human world” for a single, very obvious reason, the portal to the human world is right ******* there. This portal is the edge that divides the worlds and is situated right there, Vergil even comments on this saying that the portal to the human world is closing.

All in all, the main argument for the infinite size demon world comes from the manga, specifically because it's told from the point of an omniscient narrator, the addition of the sargasso and the astronomical board are just addons but sadly the translation doesn’t help much.

9. Speed

This one is gonna be a lot faster to tackle so let's get through this.

Mundus’ particle beam is called demon beam or demon emperor beam in the jp guide:

“If you fly in a large circle (oval), you will not be hit by enemy attacks other than "Demon Beam" and "Lightning Strike". However, the aim of "Meteor Warm" is ambiguous”. Has no proof of being an actual particle beam. Even then it explodes.

An actual translation of this page would be nice btw, also the guide refers to this being a particle beam.

The laser from dmc 3 is promising, but has no proof of burning or reflecting and isn't stated to be light or made of light.

The laser is literally stated to be a laser, that could not be more blatant than it already does, on top of you guys listing that laser feat for Nero's section of speed feats so that's moot, also if you're going to accept Link having laser dodging feats just from the fact that he dodged a laser, you have to accept this feat being legit for Dante too.

This calc is wrong because it assumes Mundus made the space, and it would be attack speed at best. Dante gets consistently tagged by mundus’ attacks, only dodging one pike at best.

Even if we currently don't have them at that speed calc, we already proved Mundus made it so that argument doesn't work, also Dante has dodged numerous attacks prior to that cutscene so that point is irrelevant.

Everything else we have no comment on since we already don't accept it on the pages as of now. The Nightmare stuff is also irrelevant when the particle beams scale to mundus in the first place so yeah.

The miscellaneous stuff we're not gonna address since we agree with these points, except for the Qliphoth tree, because there's no contradiction for the game, on top of it not being a contradiction to any of the feats listed above.

All in all, this entire refute to every single universal feat is just flat out terrible. Numerous instances of the blog contradicting itself by using specific sources in their own research while claiming that using said source is not reliable, cropping images or taking shit out of context, or blatantly ignore the translation that disproves their argument, among many others should be a clear sign that you shouldn't take this blog seriously.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

sus

Edit: I wonder if this is how people felt about my Bleach CRT, that response is so ******* massive I'm inclined to agree without reading.

 

[RisingIons]

You also forgot Hellboy's distance from the epicenter, if there is any to properly gauge.

Dividing the entire planet's surface area by our standard 0.68m^2 CA is a 750 trillion times difference...the actual result is probably high Tier 8 at BEST, garbage. This also includes several favorable assumptions to skew the result entirely toward Hellboy's side.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Welp, figured this was gonna come sooner than later, but before we start, I'd like to thank everyone in the DMC Group for helping out with this entire response, we wouldn't have gotten anywhere without their help, much appreciated. With that out of the way, let's start.

1. Pluto cutting the universe.

This argument has already been debunked here, here and here. So we might as well move onto the next parts of the arguments.

2. Merging feats (Mundus/Argosax) and separation (Sparda)













Mundus: The main argument against his feats are about “it being a chain reaction upon destroying the barrier” which is not only stupid but ignores a lot of points in the series.

To start with, the Demon World has never consumed the human world on its own, the only times something similar happened were dependent on someone to happen (Gilver).

Breaking the barrier does nothing except allowing the demons to cross easily to the human world. The scan they provided says exactly that “The dimensional wall between the Demon World and Human World can be said to be like a net. High-ranking Demons cannot come to this world unless favourable conditions have been met due to their power, but low-ranking demons are able to easily pass through this net.”

The other scan taken out of DMC 5 says the same thing: "Time was, these things only appeared on the mortal plane by possessing a wooden doll, lump of clay or something similar. Now? Those creeps walkin' around Red Grave are the genuine article. It's a sign that the barriers between the demon world and the human world are breaking down." Neither of these two scans remotely mention ANYTHING about an auto-merge of both realms, the thing that's most consistent with these two is again, the way they enter the demon world through weaker means.

There is also nothing about the demon world consuming the human world without the barrier. Not only does nothing happen to the human world once the portal to the demon world opens in DMC 3; further proven in the end of the game that everything is still the same shortly after the demon world closes at the end of the game, not only does the Hell Gates, which are stated and shown to be literal gates to the Demon world, not cause any form of merging/consuming whatsoever in any part of fortuna compared to how it was originally, but the Qliphoth tree, which is stated to have broken the dimensional barrier in DMC 5, and has been growing for the span of a month, have not done anything in the human world in terms of actually merging the realms together. The only times the merging was ever done was when Argosax and Mundus were actively trying to do it, so the entire argument of the Demon World automatically merging with the human world makes no sense.

Now, about Vol 2. Dante goes to an alternate universe where Mundus succeeded in his plan and fused the worlds together, it's not just some simple “terraforming”, the world went back to its primal state and as Dante puts it “...it's a halfway place, a realm neither human or demon” - Vol 2 p. 102.



Now that the chain reaction and terraforming arguments are done let's jump to the main part, the fusion. The first scan used says explicitly what Mundus' intent was, to unite the eternal world of darkness with the world of light, this is not only corroborated by DMC4 but “shown” in Vol2, as the world went back to its primal state.

The blog uses the official translation for this but the DMC feat blog already explained how the TL was wonky and a better translation would be something like this “"The king who appeared in the kingdom of darkness said: "What is wrong with reuniting two worlds that were once one?". From then on, the darkness tried to cover up the light, while the light struggled and tried to escape."

Another TL is here:

だがやがて闇の世に現れた王が言う

元は一つだったこの世界再び統べんとして何が悪い?

その時から闇は光を覆わんとし光は闇から逃れんと抗った

But then a king appeared in the dark world and said.

What's wrong with trying to reunite a world that was once one?

From that moment on, the darkness tried to cover the light, and the light fought to escape the darkness.

Basically, it was all meant to fuse the worlds together and go back to the primal original world. Now onto the last part:

We have an example of the fusion with Argosax, his sole half-sealed power was leaking through the seals and passively fusing the worlds together, basically the power they exuded naturally was enough for it to cause the fusion of the worlds again. With Mundus we can assume he either did it with raw power (like Argosax) or with some reality warping (which still scales to their raw power).

To top it off we have an approximate time frame thanks to all the lore the people at G1 ignored. 2000 years ago is that Mundus was born, rose to power, killed Pluto and became a king, same time in which the whole war started and unless you want to say humans were capable of fighting off demons (which is impossible for normal humans, let alone humans 2k years ago) it all happened extremely fast.

To summarize this:

• Mundus fused the worlds together
• Doesn’t matter what method he used, it is all is his own power which he can use to attack and defend himself, thanks to Demonic Energy, something that they themselves have added to their research of Nero to being legit "scale to physical strength"
• The barrier between the worlds does nothing but keep the demons out of the human world. Or at the very least hinder their full power as they have a pseudo limiter activated when they try to enter the demon world.
• The demon world doesn’t consume the human world automatically, and it needs some sort of external force forcing it to.

Argosax:







For starters, the whole Demon World consuming the human world on its own has already been debunked above.

But the scan is right, the demon world will consume the human world and that’s because of Argosax’s power, his power is leaking and he is breaking the seal already, something you can see at the end of Dante's disk as despite the ritual’s failure argosax breaks the seal.

The scan itself backs this up: "Matier summons the legendary devil hunter, Dante. Having known his father Sparda in previous years, she is certain that his skills will be necessary to stop the evil and prevent the demon world from consuming our dimension."

Matier knows about Sparda and knows about Dante defeating Mundus, knowing this she decided to call him, call for his power to confront Argosax in case of the seal being broken (which is what happens at the end)

The next part is about the world (which is always used to describe the universes) and earth (to directly say planet), let's be clear, world is always used as the universe, the human universe and the demon universe, and rarely if ever has it being used as other thing, earth on the other hand is pretty clear, this has been pretty consistent through the years. On the other hand, they also claim it's only the island that is being affected which is wrong, nowhere in the scans it's stated that the “island is the only thing being affected”.

Now, as to why we can see only part of the island is because it's a game, they didn’t create it to be seen from a space portion or something like that. Doesn’t even matter as the scans they posted itself proves its the human world (universe) that is being corrupted:

“The world is already warped. Everything that belongs to the devils will eventually revert to its original form. Even you will betray your upbringing and turn on the humans”

Basically the worlds are getting fused into the primal, original world once again this along with the part of “...consuming our dimension” is pretty clear on the meaning and the context. This is the same thing Mundus did.

It was also addressed here, the original universal upgrade





As proven above, the effects aren’t only in the island so I'm not going to bother with that argument anymore, but let it be clear that Phantom appeared in Mallet island, something that doesn’t exist anymore since it exploded in DMC1, an island that was far away from anything else as it changes positions all the time, further proving the effects aren’t “island only”.

The effects of the demon world affecting the human world on its own was already debunked above too, Arius opening a portal is meaningless and irrelevant as the door was opened at the very end of the game, you know, the one that leads to Argosax while the effects happened all the time without one.

As for the last scan, it never states the island is the only thing in danger, it's only stated that:

1. The protectorate only defends the island, this is further emphasized in Before the Nightmare. The reason why they defend the island is because the gaps in the seal are frequent there and thus demons are able to easily cross in that place, the clan works there to stop any demon that crosses. Before the Nightmare p. 49-50.

2. The original plan was to defend the island from Arius who controls the Uroboros Corporation, the same corporation that controls the island. The idea was to stop Arius and take the arcanas before he was able to do the ritual, Dante fights demons head on while Lucia goes for the Arcanas. This is further explained in the scan they linked above:

"Lucia has been training under the guidance of her mother and fellow Vidu Mali protector. Matier. Although her skills are still developing, the demons have suddenly invaded Vidu Mali once again. Matier feared this would happen, since the arrival of the evil sorcerer Arius several years before...

Now Matier must find a way to protect vidu Mali from evil once again, but she is too old and her protégé is not yet skilled enough to take on someone as powerful as Arius. Matier Summons the legendary devil hunter, Dante....

While Dante takes on the devils of Arius directly, Matier sends her daughter Lucia to the shrines of Arcana throughout Vidu Mali, in an effort to secure the ceremonial items before they fall into the hands of evil."

So, finally we have Argosax involvement in the whole ordeal and as I have debunked above, the demon world on its own does nothing, there is no chain reaction and the barrier between worlds does absolutely nothing except stop demons. The effects go beyond the island with Phantom and Griffon being prime examples of this, and of course, there is more change than just “the sky going back to normal”.

Once three of the four arcanas are retrieved by lucia is when Argosax starts breaking free from the seal and starts creating the whole fusion, exactly as Mundus did in the past.



The sacrilege does indeed bring the demon world closer to the human world but this is only to get the demons to the island, all the demons that appear there were summoned by Arius and it's very likely he used these items for that. This is shown in the mission 16 with Dante, the longer he uses the items the more demons start flooding the building which is how Arius got his army of demons. This coupled with Argosax fusing the worlds together causes the building to get corrupted, something we even see in lucia gameplay. In case these things caused the worlds to fuse together, or that the demon world somehow consumed the human world on its own, all this corruption would have occurred ages ago, instead it happened only when Argosax power was leaking, breaking free from his seal.


Next part is wrong and out of context too, Arius is stated to have managed to warp space and open a portal to the demon world, this is exactly what happens in mission 18. At the beginning we can see a portal open meaning Arius' efforts were not in vain, he managed to warp space and open the door to the demon world. The tears in space-time are something consistent in the island, hence the protectorate existing and defending only the island, something I have already addressed above.

These tears are something Arius took advantage of and most likely with the use of the sacrilege he was able to summon stronger and tougher demons, demons Lucia isn’t able to face off.

Now the scan specifically says how demons were the ones to force open a tear in the human world, not arius, not only that but as Before the Nightmare specified, those rifts are quite common there.

This is not exactly consistent. Arius has indeed BFR spells but not tech, his only time doing this was to send Lucia to an alternate dimension and she gets out by killing the demons there but the pathway out only comes after defeating the demons guarding it, this is consistent with the demons being able to force tears open. In short, Arius didn’t open any rift till the end of the game, the rest has been debunked already.

This part is the odd one among everything, not only are the four lights supposed to open a portal to the demon world but it does another thing when you actually activate all of them. They literally drag the demon world closer and closer to the human world. Every single orb that you activate says this and the final orb nails the point down by saying you can reach the demon world after the previous ones say the movement of the demon world increases. Btw, this all happens in mission 14, not 16.

For context in this mission the fusion between worlds corrupted the island in a way that it became a spatial paradox, this leds Lucia to ask Dante how the end of the street leads to the beginning of it and vice versa, you are told by both the title card and the guide that activating the four lights will open a sealed door to get out of the street. The problem is that the sealed door that opens is only to get out of the loop, at no point there is a portal to the demon world or something like that.

The thing is, sacrilege doesn’t open any portal/door while the four lights only open a pathway to the building Arius is in. The movement of the demon world is being caused by Argosax. The barrier is irrelevant once again. The demon world doesn’t consume anything on its own.

The seal Sparda placed has literally no bearing on anything except keeping demons out (which has already been explained above). You don’t need to undo anything, to fuse the worlds together.

The Eclipse:













The main reasoning behind G1’s arguments, for the lack of a better term, straight up headcanon. The very fact that the Moon’s movement, in both angles, were calced to be vastly higher than a natural Eclipse already shows us a very simple truth: it isn’t a natural phenomena. Ignoring said speed by simply saying “we should assume the timeframe isn’t literal for stuff like this, and it’s being sped up” is absurd, as on the very same cutscene, without any cuts, literally Arius appears performing the ritual, while the moon is moving far faster than normal, and guess what ? He isn’t sped up, the argument doesn’t work, not even close. This link was to show the eclipse was already happening, but ignores Lucia saying “the ritual was activated because of me”, the ritual that triggered the Eclipse in the first place, right at the same time. Her other quotes are also out of context, for example:

Lucia: "We have until the Sun is completely eclipsed. But...how are you going to enter the building? The entrance is..."

The eclipse, up until the point were the ritual started, wasn’t a problem and wasn’t mentioned, there wasn’t a “time limit” focused on it, that only happens because, again, the ritual with the 4 (Actually 3, as Dante trolled Arius) Arcanas had already started, further pointing how the event isn’t natural. I didn’t understood the meaning of putting the other two quotes, so I’m not going to address them here

DMC2 guide’s also has a specific section that mentions said event, a quote that was discarded because:


You can find their google doc on the moon argument here.

It chooses to ignore the eclipse being mentioned on the title for apparently not being on the text itself, but fails to see that said text is about the consequences caused by the whole events of the second game, the ritual to open the seal for Argosax starts, even if incomplete, and his incoming presence causes the eclipse, all of Argosax’s long distance feats are quoted numerous times in the game and its official material as the “approach of the Demon World” (and similar statements), the feat is just addressed on that line. The title is, literally, a direct mention of the Eclipse and it links this with the DW’s events, done by no other than Argosax. Questions like “why they never talk about the moon” are baseless, since the title literally talks about that

Now sure, going by DMC2’s environment, for the most part the moon and the sun could be blocked by the clouds, but we literally see money shots of the eclipse, both from Lucia/Dante's perspective, and Arius' perspective, so the cloud arguments don't work.

Sparda:


So to start with this, his seal isn’t a “keep the demon world in a bubble” kind of thing. These guys even posted it so let me bring it up again: “The dimensional wall between the Demon World and Human World can be said to be like a net. High-ranking Demons cannot come to this world unless favourable conditions have been met due to their power, but low-ranking demons are able to easily pass through this net.”

His seal was meant to keep demons away from the human world, letting nothing go through it, of course with time and the actions of some people, said seal has been weakening, allowing for tears in space-time to open and demons to cross. To do this he of course needed to separate the world that Mundus had brought back into existence, this is the separation Sparda made, the one Arkham draws parallels with in the manga when recounting the tale of the Black Horned Demon God.

With this out of the way, sparda had 2 options, either use some reality warping or to exert physical power and separate the worlds again. This brings us neatly to the whole point of the Devil Sword Sparda, Sparda's blade is specifically stated to be his power, numerous times in fact. Yamato and Rebellion was revealed to be a part of Sparda's power before he split his powers into 3 blades, meaning any and all Yamato feats would scale to Sparda because it's a fraction of his true power. The DMC 3 intro also mentions the same story, the english version mentioned that he sealed the portal between realms so the demons couldn't enter, with him being sealed off too, but here's the japanese version of that very line.
昔一人の悪魔が人間のために戦ったって、そして剣の力を使って魔界を封じ込めた一自分の強大すぎるカと一緒にね

A long time ago, a demon fought for the sake of humans. He was the one who used the mighty power of his sword to split off the Demon World, and then his own all-powerful force afterward.

They specifically refer to it as his power, nothing about hax whatsoever, meaning this would once again, scale to his overall AP. There's even more proof for the sword itself being granted strength, in the DMC 5 series recap Vergil is stated he wants greater strength by finding his father's power, with Arkham doing the same thing. Further proven in the very game this statement is said. DMC 4 even goes the extra mile by Sanctus flat out saying "The Power of Sparda, why won't you give me strength, am I not worthy?". So yeah, Sparda splitting the demon and human world with his own sword is part of his overall strength and not just hax related.

Now, they also brought up the thin veil that existed when Mundus amassed his army and this is wrong, Mundus wanted to break that veil and invade the human world, something he actually did and gets confirmed by the manga as he fused the worlds again into one.

Saying seals are hax based is like saying fire burns, irrelevant and unnecessary.

There is more context for the sealing of the tower, the temen ni gru was a tower created by humans to reach the demon world with the intention to get power, this of course backfired and became one of the main highways between the worlds but not the only one. Sparda, fearing his own ever growing power, decided to seal it along with the tower.

The rest are just examples of sparda sealing powers, which we've already addressed above about it stating to be his actual strength/power, and not just a specific hax thing.

At the very end they mention the philosopher’s stone and the context for this is simple. Dante needed to open a gate/portal big enough to let him cross to the demon world as the “net” (seal) sparda had placed wouldn't allow him to cross otherwise. As you can see in the scans and in game, Dante didn’t undo the seal Sparda placed, instead he opened a portal big and stable enough for him to cross.

Finally as they said, none of them are AP feats as those are his sealing abilities, his power comes from the fact that he separated the worlds Mundus had fused.

To summarize:

• Sparda separated the worlds Mundus fused, hence his AP on top of being able to best him in combat and his legions.
• Sparda has some ******* broken sealing abilities
• Sparda's power through his sword is also stated to be from his own raw power and strength as stated numerous times in the games. So saying it's only a hax feat and nothing more is dishonest and ignores a good chunk of scenes that says otherwise.

3. Mundus making a dimension




















Likely the most controversial feat, despite being as clear as day a Universal example of power.

As Mundus flapped his wings, the temple instantly lost its existence and the world was enveloped in a sea of stars. Only the two sides were facing each other in the vastness of space.

Now, the G1 blog starts by saying no source mentions the realm being a creation of Mundus himself, which is literally contradicted by the very next quote/link shown there. It mentions how Mundus envelops the place in “a sea of stars” after the temple was left behind, couldn’t be more clear than this, but here we are explaining what’s literally written there. To further back their claim, they use quotes such as “a realm beyond human comprehension” or “A mirror world beyond human knowledge” to actually link this realm to the demon world, which puzzles me. One of, if not THE biggest foundation of their claim is that, in their opinion, Mundus was never stated to be the creator of the realm, here we see a huge double standard, as Mundus realm was never stated to be the Demon World to begin with. Why, for them, one works and the other doesn’t ? It shall be a mystery for me. Even the quotes for both are completely different, one realm is stated to be beyond human comprehension, the other is about warping their minds by being there, nobody is being mind haxed for not being able to comprehend something, not without something to back it up, but more importantly, even if both realms had the same effect (Something that, again, isn’t the case), why would that imply they are the same ? We have a quote saying Mundus created it, ignored for unknown reasons, but one (false) same effect was enough for proof ? I gotta question that logic. With Mundus being the King of his section of the DW, with his death leading to its destruction (explanation incoming), and the Demon World Energy on his control, him having his dimension with one or other similar element to the DW wouldn’t be something really surprising, despite, again, not being the case

For the stars, we also have this argument:

> After meeting Mundus here, he is sent to the Demon Emperor Space Heaven and enters the battle with the first form of Mundus.











And to finish, the G1 mentions how Mundus uses sigils when doing dimensional travel, something that we don’t see when he creates the realm. In conclusion, yes, Mundus did created a dimension as battlefield against Dante

“Mundus likely just took Dante to one of these circles”

Likely > Mundus flapped his wings, the temple instantly lost its existence and the world was enveloped in a sea of stars ? Also, like it was shown on G1 blog, the place is called Demon Emperor's Space Heaven, which just further shows it is his personal realm, not the Demon World. Where the feat was done, in the Underworld Temple, is already inside the DW, why would Mundus teleport Dante to the DW if they are already in the DW? And if he made the whole universal thing inside the Underworld, that would still be a universal feat.

The whole next paragraph builds its case on one assumption: Mundus coming back to Mallet Island directly from his realm (where he fought Dante), and uses this to further claim the realm and the Underworld are one and the same, but not only the claim itself is absurd as both are different realms (explained above), but it still relies on a assumption, one that if taken seriously, contradicts the other statements about not only Mundus being the creator of the realm but also being named differently and being created at that moment for their fight, so it’s a bad assumption at best



























About Kamiya, the general rule is if Kamiya hasn't blocked you or responded in a trollish way, he probably means his answer. An example would be giving details on Dante's life:

Translations for Kamiya’s other tweets about Dante and Trish’s living situation : DevilMayCry (reddit.com)

With that said, Kamiya has been asked about the Mundus sequence before, and I would like to re-examine his answers.

When asked whether the sequence was accurate, Kamiya responds with "universe"

He later gets asked if the sequence is real, and responds by relinking his old universe answer

When asked once more if what he said was correct, he says to refer to his old answer

This paints a picture of consistency, at least to his stated intent for the scene. Keep in mind that staff that worked with Kamiya mention in the 3.1.4.2. book about the intended space scenes, and the sequence is flat stated as having happened in the Japanese game guide, which was released years before these twitter questions. The idea of Kamiya being a “troll” just chooses to ignore his actual serious answers, using arguments like “it’s just one word” to claim that it can’t be used, as if the length of the answer is what makes it valid or not, some twisted logic only useful for desperate moments or for when his answers don’t serve your scaling.

• Mundus Dying:

I want to start by saying, nice way to crop images and leave context out, it definitely helps us.

There are four scans used to “debunk” this and I am really without words for it. The pure hypocrisy of using a kamiya tweet as proof while making an essay moments prior trying to diminish them as nothing but trolling is baffling, this along with the scans cropped and the context ignored would be enough for me to just leave it at that and say these guys are being obvious liars, but since I already started and wasted enough time I will continue here.

Starting with the top left scan: "Underworld collapsing" the title should be enough but let us continue "Beginning in the hall of Mundus, Dante has exactly 5 minutes to reach the entrance of the underworld before it collapses, or he dies."

The whole thing is specifically saying Dante has a time limit to get out of the demon world or he dies due to it going kaboom, that’s crystal clear.

Now with the second scan, top right: Here is where the context starts being ignored, if you have played DMC1 you will know that Dante opens a portal to the demon world in the castle, he enters a mirror dimension and in that mirror dimension he "breaks" the seal sparda placed to get into the demon world. To top it off this part they emphasized so much happens 3 missions prior to the demon world collapsing.

Like I said, context is missing.

Now onto the good part about this scan: "Dante defeats Mundus and prepares to escape from the collapsing underworld." As we can see this is exactly what the guide from 7 years ago said, pretty consistent stuff if you ask me. And if you've seen the previous screenshot on their 4 scans, and read the top right scan, you'll notice the word collapsing underworld doesn't have the word underworld being shown, how conveniently cropped that seems to be.

Now with the third scan: Once again the ignore context. I will never know why people take this shit seriously.

This is what the whole page has to say:
魔帝ムンドゥスの最期の咆晧
トリッシュの死、
永い闘いはこうして終焉を迎えた
様々な想いが去来する胸/胞をおさえ
ダンテは古域を後/復(?)にする
古域もまた、最期の時を迎えようとしていた

トリッシュの最期を看取ったダンテは
手向けのアミュレットと魔剣を残し、
振り向かずに走り始めた。
古城が激しく鳴動する。崩壊がたまっていた。

The Last Roar of the Demon Emperor Mundus
The death of Trish.
This is how the long battle came to an end.
Various thoughts and feelings come and go in his chest.
Dante returns to the old world.
The old realm, too, was approaching its final moments.

Dante, who took care of Trish's last breath
He left an amulet and a magic sword for her.
He began to run without looking back.
The old castle rumbled violently. The collapse was accumulating

If you, dear reader, have been giving enough attention this is exactly when Dante gets out of Mundus dimension, as the page says “Dante returns to the old world” (this old world clearly being the demon world), “the old realm, too, was approaching its final moments” and this part is just pure confirmation the demon world was going kaboom with Mundus dying.

Finally the last part: “The old castle rumbled violently”, of course and you can see this in game, everything is shaking, last but not least important “the collapse was accumulating” the final nail in the coffin, the world was ending.

I have to be fair, I was told the quality is quite bad, some kanji could be wrong but the core idea is the same, the demon world was going to be destroyed.

And finally the last scan, Kamiya: I already pointed out the hypocrisy of denying twitter when it doesn’t serve you but also using it when it does, but i’m also just going to copy paste what our blog has to say about this “Another counter that some people use against the legitimacy of this feat (including our very own Matthew) is the fact that Kamiya rejected its legitimacy on Twitter. However, Kamiya was only involved with the creation of Devil May Cry 1, and after that, Itsuno took the series’s reins. Therefore, Kamiya has no authority to reject information given to us on Devil May Cry 4, and his word here is automatically discarded by default.”

All in all, this is pretty much a fact, any attempt to deny it is just pathetic.





Now about the guide putting the last part in the underworld section, this is obvious, its the end of the game and the large part of it happens in the demon world, they won’t make another section saying “the human world/ island/ castle” that’s dumb and a waste of time, space and resources when only very last 10 minutes happen in the human world, hence all of them being in the same section.

The last point is the dumbest one so far, not all demons are the same, they are all different, having different powers, moves, abilities, etc. Mundus isn’t made of a ton of different demons, argosax isn’t a half demon like urizen, abigail isn’t a blob of tendrils covered by stone, etc.

It’s completely stupid to think the rest of demon kings/gods share the same powers just because they are kings.
Not only that but we actually get a taste of Mundus' connection with the demon world in the second novel.

Note 1:













The fruit being stated to create illusions is completely irrelevant when Mundus is the one doing the feat, and if it somehow was an illusion, why exactly would a sea of stars be made on top of the battle field being far larger than it was before, on top of every single guide saying it's the demon emperor's space, everything points to him actually making the dimension, not him casting an illusion.

Note 2: narrative


Not only this argument is another failed attempt but it tries reusing the same “castle collapsing” argument that was already debunked. Dante implication isn’t about dying to the island, it's about dying fighting Mundus, a Mundus who is dying as well, the whole interaction is about Mundus wanting and going to kill dante and Dante saying Mundus will die there as well (considering he is already dying that’s a fact on his part). Also that was NOT the same dante that defeated mundus, because he had the Devil Sword Sparda amping him when he fought Mundus, and he left it to Trish right before he attempts to escape the underworld collapsing.

At the very end, right after sealing Mundus, it is plausible considering that Dante exhausted all his power fighting Mundus back to back and using the small power Trish gave to seal Mundus and as the second novel explained, a demon without juice is weak, very, very weak.


Note 3: Dante getting back









While it's true that the way Dante got out is somewhat vague, it's pretty simple if you stand still and think for more than a second, that there are two options, each of them are equally as valid.

In verse we are told the perfect amulet is used to travel between the demon world and the human world, not only that but they are part of the Devil Sword Sparda after they awaken its real form.

“Devil May Cry, Items — Perfect Amulet: "The combined form of Dante's pendant and Dark Knight's pendant. It allows entry into the Underworld."

Not only that but Trish actually uses that, she comes back from the demon world and post cutscenes, in 2, 4 and 5 we see she has the devil sword sparda as her main weapon, a weapon Dante left with her in the vault.

The other option is that Dante got BFR'd back to the underworld. The proof comes from Void Mundus, which you guys admit to being a BFR back to their original world, as explained in the Void Mundus section. If Void Mundus' death, who's just Mundus but one with the demon world, would cause a BFR upon his death, why would normal Mundus be any different when the same thing happens?

Either way, both the sparda with amulets, and Mundus' BFR upon death arguments are equally valid to use to explain how Dante even came back in the first place.

4. Void Mundus










This doesn’t ignore any context, not only that but we never claimed he has all of it, he “IS” the source of the demon world energy. Him being it doesn’t mean it stops existing in the rest of the world. Hence why he is called the “heart” The quote from the novel doesn’t help them in any form.

Now, he is the source of the demon world energy, the same energy that casually spawned the human world. This isn’t contradicted, in fact it's directly stated the world was born of darkness (darkness being the demon world). The next scan gives us more context: “"unending darkness, a crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two."

Basically the world was the demon world, from that the human world was created and after some time Pluto came and split the worlds. This energy is being produced by Void Mundus itself.

The statement is about how it all suddenly came into creation, time frame is irrelevant here, it's like saying the big bang is 4-C for taking an unknown amount of time to create our universe.















The usage of heart is pretty obvious, it means that Mundus is the center, the source of the demon world, that’s why as the demons get close to him their power starts replenishing to the point where it oversaturates their bodies with power and all of them start falling down.

Nexus in fact has been explored and explained in the series, its a point, a connection forced by Gilver, it forces the creation of the demon world upon the human world. This is something different than Argosax and Mundus fusion.

As for Void Mundus and the nexus, as the definition says; “"The central and most important point or place"

Void Mundus as the “heart” (source) and Nexus (most important place) is the most important point of existence in the world, everything that existed has stemmed from the energy he now gives birth to. Same energy that casually gave birth to the human world.

Now without Mundus that world is going to collapse, exactly like the original mundus and his relation with the demon world. Indeed they were BFR’d back to their world but as Dante said:

"We've got to get out of here," Dante said sternly. "This place is more dangerous than ever with the king dead. Let's get what we came for and run”

This is because, once again, the whole world is going to collapse now that Mundus is dead, exactly how DMC1 handled Mundus’ incoming death as the trigger for the Demon World to collapse, only stopping after he was sealed instead of killed, with no such luck in Novel 2, the world won’t hold.
In fact, the world has been fused, this isn’t some terraforming as I have explained in the Mundus merging section, it's the plan Mundus had from the start, to fuse the worlds into the original world and govern them as its only absolute ruler.





A being having no mass means nothing, by this logic any and all spirits in fiction who have any power statements can't be used because they lack mass. What’s important here are his feats, he just like the original mundus fused the worlds together again, he is the source of the demon world energy, the same energy that farted a universe into existence just because it can.

We also know for a fact that Mundus is the nexus, the heart/source, the most important thing in existence because of what he is. Literally showed that above.





Griffon mentions they are close to the demon keep, later Dante is the one that realizes they are close to the nexus, this is once again because they are getting close to Mundus himself.

Tldr, we know a lowball of how much energy void mundus actually has, he is the nexus and the heart and his death was going to cause the whole thing to blow up just like the original one. Being a void and lacking mass is a completely stupid argument to be used in fiction, especifically when we know for a fact the guy leaks enough energy to casually create a universe.

5. Beastheads

• Beastheads shake the “world”
• Beastheads embodying time
• Beastheads being stated to be able to reshape the world

Before anything I have to make sure everyone knows we aren’t using the beastheads to prove universal power, as their feats are mostly hax and tier 6, but they have shown feats, under special circumstances, that surpasses even the god tiers, we’ll talk about those later on.

Once again, this statement is being taken out of context. The “shaking” feat comes from another passage in the novel, here is the actual quotes:

“The world shook. The immutable laws of physics wrestled with forces intent on ignoring them. It was the birthing pains of a creature from a dimension anathema to our own.” DMC Vol2. p- 83

Another TL would be:

“The world is trembling. As one historian put it, this world is so fragile in its foundation that it cannot accept beings that do not follow its laws. So what would happen to the world if an alien being were to be forcibly inserted?”

Now, this is one of the extremely rare cases where World doesn’t mean the whole universe, context is needed for this:

"This is pretty quiet for the end of the world." A deflated Dante said, coddling Ebony and Ivory. "I expected something more, somehow. It's taken the wind out of my sails." DMC Vol2. p- 83

“ Dante didn't seem to notice. "I'm not saying this is bad, as far as the ends of the world go. A little too gloomy, maybe. I guess we should see what this guy's made of." DMC Vol2. p- 85
Dante, who at this point has been familiarized with actual universal threats is just bored and disappointed by the beastheads powers. Further showing this isn’t meant as the whole human world shaking, rather just the planet.

His next argument against this is “Even if it did shake the planet (it didn't as people would have noticed across the globe if that happened”

I don’t have to point out the sheer stupidity of this, you don’t need some hype man, a group telling you about how awesome something is to know what it is and what it does. Not only that but the novel isn’t about “what humans think or feel”, it's about Dante and Beryl and their adventure together, almost all the time you are seeing things from their perspective, not some random human across the globe.

Finally he is right, this feat is small country level, here in the wiki we treat it as such.

Now, I hope you remember I said the beastheads have feats that go beyond god tiers in special cases, this is when they have a host.

For context here, Dante had been trapped by Chen in a device that absorbs/destroys demonic power, something he has been using for decades to study demons as it preserves their lives.

Chen had a theory about how demons eat humans as fuel for power and replenish demon’s power, even going as far as giving power on par with Sparda:

“Chen had thought that the Beastheads would make him Sparda's equal. He'd envisioned harnessing the statue's power to become immortal and to assume complete mastery of the demon world.”

Dante as a demon and one who has one of the strongest wills in the series is capable of harnessing said power, he got those powers when the beastheads bit him along with the powers the hosts have.

“And in that moment, he and Dante both understood the reason why the Beastheads had never assimilated any of the demons that had carried it. It was the same reason Dante was able to carve his way through the gel coffin and stand in front of Chen. "The Beastheads eats us humans and replenishes you demons. It's like a power transformer for souls!"

"Probably." Dante shrugged. The power that now imbued him felt neither good nor evil. It simply was. Whoever wielded it could reshape reality to its own design, for better or for worse” DMC Vol2. p-179

The beastheads not only replenished his own power but gave him more power, power to change the world as they see fit and as Dante sees it is pure power, neither good nor evil.

This once again does not matter what kind of power is as demonic energy works for everything. This is shown immediately after Chen eats the statue, he gained power superior to that of Sparda and fought Dante and almost killed him.

Finally this last part is correct, the beastheads does not embody time, they represent time, something completely different.

As explained, one head represents the past, another the future and the last one the present.

This is more explicit with the ability to watch the future, the past and the present. Dante himself experienced this when he saw the past, the war, a young Mundus and Sparda, Ducas who saw the future (just like chen was doing moments prior) and Dante who himself probably is able to see the future but just like the novel explains, he has no knowledge or training for this.

6. Nightmare destroying the demon world












There are numerous problems in the Nightmare section, inside and outside the DMC verse. Outside of it, there is a blalant AOE fallacy with quotes like “his next best feat is also lacking in aoe”, and “He lacks both the speed and aoe to make this statement have a possible quantification”, as we are all aware, any fiction tends to ignore the principle of conservation of energy and showcase many powerful characters with low destructive effects on their surrounding area, some of them (few, to be exact) have some sort of explanation, like Dragon Ball with Ki control, but that’s not really necessary when the series itself possesses numerous blalant feats usually without much destruction, if AOE was necessary, DMC (and most verses) wouldn’t reach anything beyond Tier 8. The “slow movement” speed completely ignores the very quote showed on G1, as it mentions that Nightmare’s movements were restrained by Mundus, but even the idea of speed being necessary also puzzles me, as his powers can affect the whole DW dimension structure (scan in a later paragraph), which is a feat that doesn’t rely upon the usage speed

“Timeframe” can’t be a problem when the Demon World is infinite in size, as explained in the section on the infinite size demon world.

That also takes care of the stability/destruction argument, any of them, in a Infinite Sized dimension, is Universal. But looking into more quotes about Nightmare, including the whole paragraph that was missing from the G1 blog, and the new game Peak of Combat, we’ll see that he isn’t limited to only the stability

"正 直 、 俺 も こ の 粘 つ く 、 の よ う な 化 け 物 を 、 悪 魔 の 一 種 と し て 考 え て い い の か 判 断 に 迷 う と こ ろ だ 。 魔 帝 が 心 血 を そ そ い で 完 成 さ せ た 魔 界 の 生 物 兵 器 で 、 そ の 思 考 回 路 も 能 力 も 、 す べ て は 敵 対 者 を 殺 し つ く 、 す こ と だ け を 目 的 と し て 創 ら れ て い る 。 だ が 、 そ の 結 果 、 創 造 者 で さ え 予 想 も つ か な か っ た 悪 な 殺 機 械 が で き 上 が っ た ら し く 、 無 制 限 に 力 を 解 放 さ せ る と 魔 界 の 安 定 さ え 担 る が し か ね な い 危 険 な 存 在 に な つ ち ま つ た 。 そ こ で 、 マ ヌ ケ な 魔 帝 は 大 あ わ て で 、 こ い つ を 配 置 し た 地 点 に は よ 走 を 抑 え る た め の 拘 束 具 紋 章 と リ ン ク し て 力 場 を 発 生 さ せ る 拘 束 文 様 を セ ッ ト で 設 置 す る 八 メ メ に な っ た ワ ケ だ 。 た し か に 非 拘 束 状 態 の ナ イ ト メ ア の 力 は 凄 ま じ く 、 ゲ ル 状 の 肉 体 は あ ら ゆ る 攻 撃 を 受 け つ け な い 。 さ ら に 、 そ の 内 部 に 亜 空 間 と も 言 う べ き 異 世 界 を 生 成 し て 、 こ こ に 引 き す り こ ん だ 相 手 の 記 憶 力 ら 生 み 出 し た 魔 物 の " 影 " を け し か け る 、 ま さ に 悪 夢 め い た 能 力 を 発 揮 し て く る 。 だ か り と 言 っ て 拘 束 文 様 を 発 動 さ せ れ ば 楽 勝 っ て わ け で も な く 、 防 衛 本 能 が 高 ま っ て 硬 質 を し た 巨 体 か ら 、 さ な が ら 軍 事 兵 器 の よ う に 多 彩 な 攻 撃 を 繰 り 出 し て き や が る 。 こ い つ が 暴 走 し て 魔 界 が 滅 び ち ま え ば い い の に っ て 、 ホ ン ト に 思 う ぜ !"
Translation:
"To be honest, I'm at a loss in judging whether I should consider this sticky dark monster as a kind of demon. It is a biological weapon of the Demon World that the Demon Emperor completed with all his heart and soul, its thought circuits and ability are all created solely for the purpose of killing an adversary. However, as a result, it seems that an evil killing machine that even the creator did not anticipate was created, becoming a dangerous existence who could play a role in the stability of the Demon World if its powers were to be released indefinitely. So, the Demon Emperor was in a big hurry and at the moment when this guy was arranged, a restraining tool was placed to suppress its movement──that was the reason why a set of restraint patterns that generate a forcefield by linking with eight emblems was set. Certainly, the unrestrained Nightmare's power was terrifying, and its gel-like body does not accept any attacks. In addition, it creates a different world inside it which can be called a subspace, exerting a truly nightmare ability to cast the "shadow" of the demon that was created from the memory of the opponent who was pulled in it. If you could call it a restraint pattern, it wasn't an easy victory and its defense instinct increases and its body hardens, attacking with a variety of attacks like a military weapon. I wish this guy would run off and have the Demon World perish!”
1)The first highlighted sentence in the paragraph talks about how indefinite release of Nightmare’s power will play a role in the stability of the Demon World. I laugh at how G1 thinks this is some sort of anti-feat. Obviously a being capable of realm destruction would cause instability just by existing, because that is what the text directly says. The mere removal of seal/chains will allow Nightmare destabilize the Demon World, not unlike Dragon Ball characters shaking the world around them by removing restraints or not holding back, only in this case it's Nightmare destabilizing the entire Demon World. Which would come under significantly affecting infinite structure feat.
2)The very quote says the DW will perish under Nightmare’s powers, which would be its complete destruction. This is wished by the developer himself that the Nightmare "perish" or destroy the Demon World itself. Which shows that the developer themselves have faith in Nightmare’s abilities to do as stated. And obviously this is the Demon World which is perishing, not the population or society, so its universal destruction blatantly not life wiping.
The Peak of Combat scan:

冥界 据说魔王创造了一种强大的武器他甚至担心它会摧毁 他自己的王国,封印了他的力量来阻止它。凭借他巨 大的力量,他可以毫不费力地举起整个冥界的结构或 摧毁它。 只有与她的创造者相媲美的存在才能超越他的强度。 一件武器将成为任何实体的噩梦,无论是活着的还是 死去的。

V1: The Underworld

The demon king is said to have created a powerful weapon that he even feared would destroy his own kingdom, and sealed his power to stop it. With his immense great power, he could effortlessly lift the entire structure of the underworld or destroy it. Only a being comparable to her creator could surpass his strength. A weapon would be a nightmare for any entity, living or dead.

V2: Underworld

The Demon is said to have created a powerful weapon he even feared would destroy his own kingdom, sealing his power to stop it. With his great power, he could effortlessly lift the entire structure of the underworld or destroy it. Only an existence comparable to her creator can surpass his intensity. A weapon will become a nightmare for any entity, whether alive or dead.

V3: In the underworld, the demon king is said to have created a powerful weapon he feared would destroy his own kingdom, sealing his power to stop it. With his great, great power, he could lift the entire structure of the underworld without difficulty or destroy it. Only an existence comparable to that of her creator can exceed its intensity. A weapon would be a nightmare for any entity, alive or dead.

In any translation, the two feats are solid: Nightmare can destroy the entire structure of the Demon World, as well as lift it. These are very, very clear Universal feats of power and lifting strength being stated, again, to Nightmare. One of, if not the biggest lore detail about the character is him being a demon with enough power to destroy their world, consistently stated on multiple DMC media even with different levels of details, but the feat is there, and is the more direct one among all of them.

7. Savior making a dimension






The stairway to heaven or hell is clearly talking about the entire board game area, it's literally shaped like a stairway, where you have to go up each step in order to reach Sanctus to stop the Savior from doing anything. It couldn't have made it more blatant than that. How do you jump to the conclusion that the Savior's dimensions aren't made by himself and are just dimensional pockets when you earlier in the same paragraph admit to it being a creation?
“Nightmarish” itself gets paired up with the idea of it being a “nightmare” or a “vision,” but in this context, the area that’s specifically stated to be recreated is Ferris Hill’s.
Even the scan you use flat out say it's a nightmarish creation, meaning the Savior, who's controlling the dice game, is making these realms to begin with.



The being that's goading Nero to strike them down is the DICE itself, not the demons that Nero fights, the Dice itself talks to Nero the first time you see it explaining how the rules of the dice game works, explaining to you that you need to strike the dice in order to progress to the next area. And once again it talks to Nero doing the same thing at Mission 19. Hell when Dante shows up in the first Dice game, he destroys the Dice itself, and there's no ghostly voice that appears whatsoever, Occam's Razor would point to the fact that it was indeed the Dice itself that was speaking to Nero when talking about the game, saying otherwise with no proof whatsoever is mind-boggling.



We have never once used the Savior as an actual feat for Universal, the main reason why everyone has a High 4-C rating in the first place is because of Savior, and it's from the fact that he made a pocket dimension with a sun inside of it, something you guys admit is an actual creation.



Nero in that entire mission is inside the Savior and is inside a nightmarish creation of these areas, there's no mention anywhere in the game that says that they were sent to an alternate reality at all. Occam's Razor would point to the fact that the Savior made it if it was inside of his body and there's statements of these areas being a nightmarish creation, you need to prove that these are actual alternate realities as opposed to creation because you haven't shown any scans whatsoever to back up your points, just "We don't know if this specific thing happened" because reasons.
Two, comparing Saviour to Beastheads in saying BFR'd Nero to Alternate Timeline is fallacious on many levels, not only is Saviour incapable of even basic space-time BFR, the thought that it can BFR and reverse BFR to alternate timeline with precise idea as to where to drop Nero in time-point is absolutely baseless.
Even Beastheads isn't capable of that accuracy, not to mention Beastheads is sole possessor of that ability with deep lore and mechanics behind why that is. In short Saviour is incapable of BFR thus the dimensions didn't already exist somewhere outside the timeline. It was created as said in-guide and seen in visuals inside Saviour itself.



How the hell can you go out of your way to claim that the Prime Guides are not legit source for feats and lore, when in your own blog, in the Sparda Physiology google doc that you've made, you linked a Prima Guide scan to argue that Nero and co. can resist Energy Absorption? This is peak double standard right here, and you have no right claiming this isn't legit while also using said information for your own research. But let's ignore this blatant double standard and pick apart this reddit thread.

• The guides being made with an early build does not prove that the information in these guides are automatically wrong, the scan for the savior here, in a Prima Guide, is not wrong whatsoever, that sequence of events is 1 to 1 to a tee. Nero fights the angelo enemies first, just like the guide said. The second platform being identical in terms of color coded spots, with the green and white orb in the corners, is 100% accurate to the final product, on top of needing to role a 6 in order to move to the next area on your first dice roll. Berial being the next foe to fight, as shown in the Prima Guide, is 100% accurate to the final product. There are no changes or alterations from this part of the game, so the reddit's point on how "early versions of the game is what the guides are based off on" doesn't work here.
• The only example this guy mentions on how any of these games have incorrect information in their guides is from Brady Games' FFX-2 guide, not Prima Games btw, those are two completely different companies at the time so that argument doesn't hold any ground here for Prima Games guides.

Hodgson moved to LA and worked on his first strategy guides at GameFan -- for games like Super Mario 64, Soul Blade and Doom 64 -- under the magazine’s GameFan Books division. He flitted among various publishers and magazines until 2000. He called Prima, at the time one of the biggest strategy guide companies (its main competitor, BradyGames, would later be bought by publisher Penguin Random House and folded into Prima). He sent Prima his Metal Gear Solid guide, and they assigned him Armored Core.

• This same article that the reddit posts references also has this little gem right here.

Hodgson seems to always go above and beyond. His humor is often self-deprecating, but he’s also proud when he talks about some of the things he’s accomplished within the limited medium of strategy guides, like the note he received from Hideo Kojima about his Metal Gear Solid guide in 1998.

“He loved the guide. He liked the fact that I'd put box-outs for the history of the forklift truck in the first level,” Hodgson said. “Strategy guides were usually just ‘go here, do this, go here, do that.’ I wanted it to be a bit more of an 'official mission handbook,' we called it.” Kojima said he’d shown the guide to his mother, who didn’t really understand video games but of course knew what a book was.

• If Hideo Kojima himself, the man behind Metal Gear Solid, approved of his guidebooks for his OWN GAME and had no issues showing it to his mother, I think it's safe to say that his work is more than reliable enough to be used. Also side note, games like Skyrim, Fallout 4 and the Witcher 3, open world games aren't remotely comparable to linear games like Devil May Cry, where you can find everything much faster than open world games where there's endless ways to go and not linear level designs to explore, just wanted to point out that little Apples to Oranges comparison there.

8. 4D demon world







Okay, to start this part the demon world energy does not only stop time, as the blog puts it: “The Demon World Energy is capable to warp the space-time in a Universal scale,can create time paradoxes,can affect not only the present, but also the past and future and is capable to warp the entire of the universe”

Of course if you read the Argosax section, we debunked their attempts at hand waving this away. And of course, all of this happens because Argosax is fusing the worlds together. This fusion is messing with the fabric of space-time of the human world, something that here in the wiki is considered 4D, something that starts from Low 2-C.

Low 2-C | Universe level+: Characters who are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums of a universal scale. However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either:

A) Equivalent to a large extra dimensional space. That is, a higher-dimensional "bulk" space which embeds lower-dimensional ones (Such as our universe) as subsets of itself, whose dimensions are not microscopic / compactified.

Since the demon world fits the second criteria while the human world fits the first one it's safe to say this works easily.

Demon world fits in a sense that it works as the membrane the human world is floating in since the human world is nothing but a piece of the original world of darkness which is the demon world.

On the other hand, the rest are examples of demonic energy messing with time and/or space and they are correct, that’s messing with only 1 temporal or spatial dimension, something that isn’t 4D and that we've already removed from the blog, and have been trying to get out and will likely result in a thread to get it taken out (if it hasn’t already).

As for Void Mundus, we already explained and debunked their arguments, you can go back and check them again or check the regular mundus part as some of them are the same contextually.

9. Infinite size demon world

Here is their entire response regarding the infinite size demon world.

Let's go with the manga, the text isn’t just “flavor”, if these guys bothered to source their points they would have linked the complete manga page, these guys also happened to use a japanese raw text from us that flat out said the demon world is infinite so… yeah. This darkness is the demon world, its directly stated to be that: “The darkness became the realm of demons”, the next page further confirms this:

"But one day the lord of the dark world said..."

"These realms were once united, so why not rule them as one?"

"From that era forward the dark fought to control the light and the light struggled to defy the dark"

All of them refer to the demon world as this darkness.

At no point in the series the darkness refers to something else but the demon world. Implying it means “they can’t see the end” is wrong considering 3 demon gods were able to mess with the whole thing, demon gods that mess with space and time when doing this.

Now we know they are separate time-space continuums, this is pretty obvious and we have used some scans about this in the whole blog for a while now but let me bring some.

• The samsara is used to restore rifts in time/space in the demon world
• The gigapede literally only made his way to the human world due to rifts in space-time
• Oranguerra literally only crossed because a rift in space-time
• A rift between the worlds allows demons to cross
• There is even a dimensional wall between the worlds (that does nothing to the demon world mind you)

There is more, like Mallet Island having a ******-up time passage due to its deep connection with the demon world, the demon world messing with time/space when Argosax was fusing the worlds together, etc.

I know that “unending” can have some different definitions but the context here is clear, it’s about the universe, the demon world universe. There is no way to twist it without ignoring context.

Now they also said this “The Demon world might also have an edge. The Unsacred Hellgate, the edge which divides the Demon World from the Human World, seen in the finale to Devil May Cry 3.”

And this guy ignores context yet again, the area is called “the edge which divides the demon world from the human world” for a single, very obvious reason, the portal to the human world is right ******* there. This portal is the edge that divides the worlds and is situated right there, Vergil even comments on this saying that the portal to the human world is closing.

All in all, the main argument for the infinite size demon world comes from the manga, specifically because it's told from the point of an omniscient narrator, the addition of the sargasso and the astronomical board are just addons but sadly the translation doesn’t help much.

9. Speed

This one is gonna be a lot faster to tackle so let's get through this.





An actual translation of this page would be nice btw, also the guide refers to this being a particle beam.



The laser is literally stated to be a laser, that could not be more blatant than it already does, on top of you guys listing that laser feat for Nero's section of speed feats so that's moot, also if you're going to accept Link having laser dodging feats just from the fact that he dodged a laser, you have to accept this feat being legit for Dante too.



Even if we currently don't have them at that speed calc, we already proved Mundus made it so that argument doesn't work, also Dante has dodged numerous attacks prior to that cutscene so that point is irrelevant.

Everything else we have no comment on since we already don't accept it on the pages as of now. The Nightmare stuff is also irrelevant when the particle beams scale to mundus in the first place so yeah.

The miscellaneous stuff we're not gonna address since we agree with these points, except for the Qliphoth tree, because there's no contradiction for the game, on top of it not being a contradiction to any of the feats listed above.

All in all, this entire refute to every single universal feat is just flat out terrible. Numerous instances of the blog contradicting itself by using specific sources in their own research while claiming that using said source is not reliable, cropping images or taking shit out of context, or blatantly ignore the translation that disproves their argument, among many others should be a clear sign that you shouldn't take this blog seriously.

I agree with this.

Though that isn't a message, that's a Russian novel!

 

[LordGinSama]

Why are you guys even paying attention to the Hellboy stuff? As far as I'm concerned the reason for this thread is the supposed debunks of DMC.


Honestly hell even the OP could have done a better job in explaining. In my honest opinion whoever made this debunk blog should come here to speak about it on his behalf. The thread is rendered null and irrelevant if the dude who came up with these arguments can't even defend his views whether his views or flawed or not.



So basically I disagree with both sides here, the guy who made the arguments should be the one arguing here, nobody else. Seems better just to close this thread if that's the case, no idea why some of yall are even entertaining a debunk from another battle board. They're entitled to their own opinions, as far as I'm concerned unless they actually approach this wiki with that debunk then this is all irrelevant.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Ladies and gentlemen

It was a blast doing this debunk alongside u all, that's some really fine work for a really united team of great supporters

Thank u

 

[RisingIons]

Welp, figured this was gonna come sooner than later, but before we start, I'd like to thank everyone in the DMC Group for helping out with this entire response, we wouldn't have gotten anywhere without their help, much appreciated. With that out of the way, let's start.

You are a fast man.

 

[Theglassman12]

@LordGinSama if Ant of all people is tagging me and a few people on the site about this blog, I'd say we do end up needing to respond to it before it's too late, also if the guy who's made this debunk wants to come in and discuss it, he's more than willing to do this.

 

[LordGinSama]

Some of yall gotta learn how to use spoilers.

 

[KLOL506]

You are a fast man.

Actually we had this response in the making for weeks now LOL, I helped out tremendously as I amassed whatever knowledge I could on DMC.

 

[KLOL506]

Anyway, in case y'all haven't noticed, I agree with Glassman's take on the G1 blog. Anyone with common sense can see just how terrible the G1 blog is given its half-assed use of scans and sheer hypocrisy of claiming guidebooks to not be accurate and then using the guidebooks anyway and so on.

 

[LordGinSama]

@LordGinSama if Ant of all people is tagging me and a few people on the site about this blog, I'd say we do end up needing to respond to it before it's too late, also if the guy who's made this debunk wants to come in and discuss it, he's more than willing to do this.

Ant tagged you? No offense but that seems like a gross overreaction for a site that doesn't even follow our Tiering System. I understand the point Your making but it's still pretty silly to act as if the debunk blog from a different site entirely is gonna have any effect here. I'm sure there are people on Reddit writing walls of text as to why the Tiering System here is wrong with citations, but nobody is making threads here about it.


if this came from a different site then I see no reason why we should even entertain especially if the guy ain't even apart of this wiki.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Welp, figured this was gonna come sooner than later, but before we start, I'd like to thank everyone in the DMC Group for helping out with this entire response, we wouldn't have gotten anywhere without their help, much appreciated. With that out of the way, let's start.

1. Pluto cutting the universe.

This argument has already been debunked here, here and here. So we might as well move onto the next parts of the arguments.

2. Merging feats (Mundus/Argosax) and separation (Sparda)













Mundus: The main argument against his feats are about “it being a chain reaction upon destroying the barrier” which is not only stupid but ignores a lot of points in the series.

To start with, the Demon World has never consumed the human world on its own, the only times something similar happened were dependent on someone to happen (Gilver).

Breaking the barrier does nothing except allowing the demons to cross easily to the human world. The scan they provided says exactly that “The dimensional wall between the Demon World and Human World can be said to be like a net. High-ranking Demons cannot come to this world unless favourable conditions have been met due to their power, but low-ranking demons are able to easily pass through this net.”

The other scan taken out of DMC 5 says the same thing: "Time was, these things only appeared on the mortal plane by possessing a wooden doll, lump of clay or something similar. Now? Those creeps walkin' around Red Grave are the genuine article. It's a sign that the barriers between the demon world and the human world are breaking down." Neither of these two scans remotely mention ANYTHING about an auto-merge of both realms, the thing that's most consistent with these two is again, the way they enter the demon world through weaker means.

There is also nothing about the demon world consuming the human world without the barrier. Not only does nothing happen to the human world once the portal to the demon world opens in DMC 3; further proven in the end of the game that everything is still the same shortly after the demon world closes at the end of the game, not only does the Hell Gates, which are stated and shown to be literal gates to the Demon world, not cause any form of merging/consuming whatsoever in any part of fortuna compared to how it was originally, but the Qliphoth tree, which is stated to have broken the dimensional barrier in DMC 5, and has been growing for the span of a month, have not done anything in the human world in terms of actually merging the realms together. The only times the merging was ever done was when Argosax and Mundus were actively trying to do it, so the entire argument of the Demon World automatically merging with the human world makes no sense.

Now, about Vol 2. Dante goes to an alternate universe where Mundus succeeded in his plan and fused the worlds together, it's not just some simple “terraforming”, the world went back to its primal state and as Dante puts it “...it's a halfway place, a realm neither human or demon” - Vol 2 p. 102.



Now that the chain reaction and terraforming arguments are done let's jump to the main part, the fusion. The first scan used says explicitly what Mundus' intent was, to unite the eternal world of darkness with the world of light, this is not only corroborated by DMC4 but “shown” in Vol2, as the world went back to its primal state.

The blog uses the official translation for this but the DMC feat blog already explained how the TL was wonky and a better translation would be something like this “"The king who appeared in the kingdom of darkness said: "What is wrong with reuniting two worlds that were once one?". From then on, the darkness tried to cover up the light, while the light struggled and tried to escape."

Another TL is here:

だがやがて闇の世に現れた王が言う

元は一つだったこの世界再び統べんとして何が悪い?

その時から闇は光を覆わんとし光は闇から逃れんと抗った

But then a king appeared in the dark world and said.

What's wrong with trying to reunite a world that was once one?

From that moment on, the darkness tried to cover the light, and the light fought to escape the darkness.

Basically, it was all meant to fuse the worlds together and go back to the primal original world. Now onto the last part:

We have an example of the fusion with Argosax, his sole half-sealed power was leaking through the seals and passively fusing the worlds together, basically the power they exuded naturally was enough for it to cause the fusion of the worlds again. With Mundus we can assume he either did it with raw power (like Argosax) or with some reality warping (which still scales to their raw power).

To top it off we have an approximate time frame thanks to all the lore the people at G1 ignored. 2000 years ago is that Mundus was born, rose to power, killed Pluto and became a king, same time in which the whole war started and unless you want to say humans were capable of fighting off demons (which is impossible for normal humans, let alone humans 2k years ago) it all happened extremely fast.

To summarize this:

• Mundus fused the worlds together
• Doesn’t matter what method he used, it is all is his own power which he can use to attack and defend himself, thanks to Demonic Energy, something that they themselves have added to their research of Nero to being legit "scale to physical strength"
• The barrier between the worlds does nothing but keep the demons out of the human world. Or at the very least hinder their full power as they have a pseudo limiter activated when they try to enter the demon world.
• The demon world doesn’t consume the human world automatically, and it needs some sort of external force forcing it to.

Argosax:







For starters, the whole Demon World consuming the human world on its own has already been debunked above.

But the scan is right, the demon world will consume the human world and that’s because of Argosax’s power, his power is leaking and he is breaking the seal already, something you can see at the end of Dante's disk as despite the ritual’s failure argosax breaks the seal.

The scan itself backs this up: "Matier summons the legendary devil hunter, Dante. Having known his father Sparda in previous years, she is certain that his skills will be necessary to stop the evil and prevent the demon world from consuming our dimension."

Matier knows about Sparda and knows about Dante defeating Mundus, knowing this she decided to call him, call for his power to confront Argosax in case of the seal being broken (which is what happens at the end)

The next part is about the world (which is always used to describe the universes) and earth (to directly say planet), let's be clear, world is always used as the universe, the human universe and the demon universe, and rarely if ever has it being used as other thing, earth on the other hand is pretty clear, this has been pretty consistent through the years. On the other hand, they also claim it's only the island that is being affected which is wrong, nowhere in the scans it's stated that the “island is the only thing being affected”.

Now, as to why we can see only part of the island is because it's a game, they didn’t create it to be seen from a space portion or something like that. Doesn’t even matter as the scans they posted itself proves its the human world (universe) that is being corrupted:

“The world is already warped. Everything that belongs to the devils will eventually revert to its original form. Even you will betray your upbringing and turn on the humans”

Basically the worlds are getting fused into the primal, original world once again this along with the part of “...consuming our dimension” is pretty clear on the meaning and the context. This is the same thing Mundus did.

It was also addressed here, the original universal upgrade





As proven above, the effects aren’t only in the island so I'm not going to bother with that argument anymore, but let it be clear that Phantom appeared in Mallet island, something that doesn’t exist anymore since it exploded in DMC1, an island that was far away from anything else as it changes positions all the time, further proving the effects aren’t “island only”.

The effects of the demon world affecting the human world on its own was already debunked above too, Arius opening a portal is meaningless and irrelevant as the door was opened at the very end of the game, you know, the one that leads to Argosax while the effects happened all the time without one.

As for the last scan, it never states the island is the only thing in danger, it's only stated that:

1. The protectorate only defends the island, this is further emphasized in Before the Nightmare. The reason why they defend the island is because the gaps in the seal are frequent there and thus demons are able to easily cross in that place, the clan works there to stop any demon that crosses. Before the Nightmare p. 49-50.

2. The original plan was to defend the island from Arius who controls the Uroboros Corporation, the same corporation that controls the island. The idea was to stop Arius and take the arcanas before he was able to do the ritual, Dante fights demons head on while Lucia goes for the Arcanas. This is further explained in the scan they linked above:

"Lucia has been training under the guidance of her mother and fellow Vidu Mali protector. Matier. Although her skills are still developing, the demons have suddenly invaded Vidu Mali once again. Matier feared this would happen, since the arrival of the evil sorcerer Arius several years before...

Now Matier must find a way to protect vidu Mali from evil once again, but she is too old and her protégé is not yet skilled enough to take on someone as powerful as Arius. Matier Summons the legendary devil hunter, Dante....

While Dante takes on the devils of Arius directly, Matier sends her daughter Lucia to the shrines of Arcana throughout Vidu Mali, in an effort to secure the ceremonial items before they fall into the hands of evil."

So, finally we have Argosax involvement in the whole ordeal and as I have debunked above, the demon world on its own does nothing, there is no chain reaction and the barrier between worlds does absolutely nothing except stop demons. The effects go beyond the island with Phantom and Griffon being prime examples of this, and of course, there is more change than just “the sky going back to normal”.

Once three of the four arcanas are retrieved by lucia is when Argosax starts breaking free from the seal and starts creating the whole fusion, exactly as Mundus did in the past.



The sacrilege does indeed bring the demon world closer to the human world but this is only to get the demons to the island, all the demons that appear there were summoned by Arius and it's very likely he used these items for that. This is shown in the mission 16 with Dante, the longer he uses the items the more demons start flooding the building which is how Arius got his army of demons. This coupled with Argosax fusing the worlds together causes the building to get corrupted, something we even see in lucia gameplay. In case these things caused the worlds to fuse together, or that the demon world somehow consumed the human world on its own, all this corruption would have occurred ages ago, instead it happened only when Argosax power was leaking, breaking free from his seal.


Next part is wrong and out of context too, Arius is stated to have managed to warp space and open a portal to the demon world, this is exactly what happens in mission 18. At the beginning we can see a portal open meaning Arius' efforts were not in vain, he managed to warp space and open the door to the demon world. The tears in space-time are something consistent in the island, hence the protectorate existing and defending only the island, something I have already addressed above.

These tears are something Arius took advantage of and most likely with the use of the sacrilege he was able to summon stronger and tougher demons, demons Lucia isn’t able to face off.

Now the scan specifically says how demons were the ones to force open a tear in the human world, not arius, not only that but as Before the Nightmare specified, those rifts are quite common there.

This is not exactly consistent. Arius has indeed BFR spells but not tech, his only time doing this was to send Lucia to an alternate dimension and she gets out by killing the demons there but the pathway out only comes after defeating the demons guarding it, this is consistent with the demons being able to force tears open. In short, Arius didn’t open any rift till the end of the game, the rest has been debunked already.

This part is the odd one among everything, not only are the four lights supposed to open a portal to the demon world but it does another thing when you actually activate all of them. They literally drag the demon world closer and closer to the human world. Every single orb that you activate says this and the final orb nails the point down by saying you can reach the demon world after the previous ones say the movement of the demon world increases. Btw, this all happens in mission 14, not 16.

For context in this mission the fusion between worlds corrupted the island in a way that it became a spatial paradox, this leds Lucia to ask Dante how the end of the street leads to the beginning of it and vice versa, you are told by both the title card and the guide that activating the four lights will open a sealed door to get out of the street. The problem is that the sealed door that opens is only to get out of the loop, at no point there is a portal to the demon world or something like that.

The thing is, sacrilege doesn’t open any portal/door while the four lights only open a pathway to the building Arius is in. The movement of the demon world is being caused by Argosax. The barrier is irrelevant once again. The demon world doesn’t consume anything on its own.

The seal Sparda placed has literally no bearing on anything except keeping demons out (which has already been explained above). You don’t need to undo anything, to fuse the worlds together.

The Eclipse:













The main reasoning behind G1’s arguments, for the lack of a better term, straight up headcanon. The very fact that the Moon’s movement, in both angles, were calced to be vastly higher than a natural Eclipse already shows us a very simple truth: it isn’t a natural phenomena. Ignoring said speed by simply saying “we should assume the timeframe isn’t literal for stuff like this, and it’s being sped up” is absurd, as on the very same cutscene, without any cuts, literally Arius appears performing the ritual, while the moon is moving far faster than normal, and guess what ? He isn’t sped up, the argument doesn’t work, not even close. This link was to show the eclipse was already happening, but ignores Lucia saying “the ritual was activated because of me”, the ritual that triggered the Eclipse in the first place, right at the same time. Her other quotes are also out of context, for example:

Lucia: "We have until the Sun is completely eclipsed. But...how are you going to enter the building? The entrance is..."

The eclipse, up until the point were the ritual started, wasn’t a problem and wasn’t mentioned, there wasn’t a “time limit” focused on it, that only happens because, again, the ritual with the 4 (Actually 3, as Dante trolled Arius) Arcanas had already started, further pointing how the event isn’t natural. I didn’t understood the meaning of putting the other two quotes, so I’m not going to address them here

DMC2 guide’s also has a specific section that mentions said event, a quote that was discarded because:


You can find their google doc on the moon argument here.

It chooses to ignore the eclipse being mentioned on the title for apparently not being on the text itself, but fails to see that said text is about the consequences caused by the whole events of the second game, the ritual to open the seal for Argosax starts, even if incomplete, and his incoming presence causes the eclipse, all of Argosax’s long distance feats are quoted numerous times in the game and its official material as the “approach of the Demon World” (and similar statements), the feat is just addressed on that line. The title is, literally, a direct mention of the Eclipse and it links this with the DW’s events, done by no other than Argosax. Questions like “why they never talk about the moon” are baseless, since the title literally talks about that

Now sure, going by DMC2’s environment, for the most part the moon and the sun could be blocked by the clouds, but we literally see money shots of the eclipse, both from Lucia/Dante's perspective, and Arius' perspective, so the cloud arguments don't work.

Sparda:


So to start with this, his seal isn’t a “keep the demon world in a bubble” kind of thing. These guys even posted it so let me bring it up again: “The dimensional wall between the Demon World and Human World can be said to be like a net. High-ranking Demons cannot come to this world unless favourable conditions have been met due to their power, but low-ranking demons are able to easily pass through this net.”

His seal was meant to keep demons away from the human world, letting nothing go through it, of course with time and the actions of some people, said seal has been weakening, allowing for tears in space-time to open and demons to cross. To do this he of course needed to separate the world that Mundus had brought back into existence, this is the separation Sparda made, the one Arkham draws parallels with in the manga when recounting the tale of the Black Horned Demon God.

With this out of the way, sparda had 2 options, either use some reality warping or to exert physical power and separate the worlds again. This brings us neatly to the whole point of the Devil Sword Sparda, Sparda's blade is specifically stated to be his power, numerous times in fact. Yamato and Rebellion was revealed to be a part of Sparda's power before he split his powers into 3 blades, meaning any and all Yamato feats would scale to Sparda because it's a fraction of his true power. The DMC 3 intro also mentions the same story, the english version mentioned that he sealed the portal between realms so the demons couldn't enter, with him being sealed off too, but here's the japanese version of that very line.
昔一人の悪魔が人間のために戦ったって、そして剣の力を使って魔界を封じ込めた一自分の強大すぎるカと一緒にね

A long time ago, a demon fought for the sake of humans. He was the one who used the mighty power of his sword to split off the Demon World, and then his own all-powerful force afterward.

They specifically refer to it as his power, nothing about hax whatsoever, meaning this would once again, scale to his overall AP. There's even more proof for the sword itself being granted strength, in the DMC 5 series recap Vergil is stated he wants greater strength by finding his father's power, with Arkham doing the same thing. Further proven in the very game this statement is said. DMC 4 even goes the extra mile by Sanctus flat out saying "The Power of Sparda, why won't you give me strength, am I not worthy?". So yeah, Sparda splitting the demon and human world with his own sword is part of his overall strength and not just hax related.

Now, they also brought up the thin veil that existed when Mundus amassed his army and this is wrong, Mundus wanted to break that veil and invade the human world, something he actually did and gets confirmed by the manga as he fused the worlds again into one.

Saying seals are hax based is like saying fire burns, irrelevant and unnecessary.

There is more context for the sealing of the tower, the temen ni gru was a tower created by humans to reach the demon world with the intention to get power, this of course backfired and became one of the main highways between the worlds but not the only one. Sparda, fearing his own ever growing power, decided to seal it along with the tower.

The rest are just examples of sparda sealing powers, which we've already addressed above about it stating to be his actual strength/power, and not just a specific hax thing.

At the very end they mention the philosopher’s stone and the context for this is simple. Dante needed to open a gate/portal big enough to let him cross to the demon world as the “net” (seal) sparda had placed wouldn't allow him to cross otherwise. As you can see in the scans and in game, Dante didn’t undo the seal Sparda placed, instead he opened a portal big and stable enough for him to cross.

Finally as they said, none of them are AP feats as those are his sealing abilities, his power comes from the fact that he separated the worlds Mundus had fused.

To summarize:

• Sparda separated the worlds Mundus fused, hence his AP on top of being able to best him in combat and his legions.
• Sparda has some ******* broken sealing abilities
• Sparda's power through his sword is also stated to be from his own raw power and strength as stated numerous times in the games. So saying it's only a hax feat and nothing more is dishonest and ignores a good chunk of scenes that says otherwise.

3. Mundus making a dimension




















Likely the most controversial feat, despite being as clear as day a Universal example of power.

As Mundus flapped his wings, the temple instantly lost its existence and the world was enveloped in a sea of stars. Only the two sides were facing each other in the vastness of space.

Now, the G1 blog starts by saying no source mentions the realm being a creation of Mundus himself, which is literally contradicted by the very next quote/link shown there. It mentions how Mundus envelops the place in “a sea of stars” after the temple was left behind, couldn’t be more clear than this, but here we are explaining what’s literally written there. To further back their claim, they use quotes such as “a realm beyond human comprehension” or “A mirror world beyond human knowledge” to actually link this realm to the demon world, which puzzles me. One of, if not THE biggest foundation of their claim is that, in their opinion, Mundus was never stated to be the creator of the realm, here we see a huge double standard, as Mundus realm was never stated to be the Demon World to begin with. Why, for them, one works and the other doesn’t ? It shall be a mystery for me. Even the quotes for both are completely different, one realm is stated to be beyond human comprehension, the other is about warping their minds by being there, nobody is being mind haxed for not being able to comprehend something, not without something to back it up, but more importantly, even if both realms had the same effect (Something that, again, isn’t the case), why would that imply they are the same ? We have a quote saying Mundus created it, ignored for unknown reasons, but one (false) same effect was enough for proof ? I gotta question that logic. With Mundus being the King of his section of the DW, with his death leading to its destruction (explanation incoming), and the Demon World Energy on his control, him having his dimension with one or other similar element to the DW wouldn’t be something really surprising, despite, again, not being the case

For the stars, we also have this argument:

> After meeting Mundus here, he is sent to the Demon Emperor Space Heaven and enters the battle with the first form of Mundus.











And to finish, the G1 mentions how Mundus uses sigils when doing dimensional travel, something that we don’t see when he creates the realm. In conclusion, yes, Mundus did created a dimension as battlefield against Dante

“Mundus likely just took Dante to one of these circles”

Likely > Mundus flapped his wings, the temple instantly lost its existence and the world was enveloped in a sea of stars ? Also, like it was shown on G1 blog, the place is called Demon Emperor's Space Heaven, which just further shows it is his personal realm, not the Demon World. Where the feat was done, in the Underworld Temple, is already inside the DW, why would Mundus teleport Dante to the DW if they are already in the DW? And if he made the whole universal thing inside the Underworld, that would still be a universal feat.

The whole next paragraph builds its case on one assumption: Mundus coming back to Mallet Island directly from his realm (where he fought Dante), and uses this to further claim the realm and the Underworld are one and the same, but not only the claim itself is absurd as both are different realms (explained above), but it still relies on a assumption, one that if taken seriously, contradicts the other statements about not only Mundus being the creator of the realm but also being named differently and being created at that moment for their fight, so it’s a bad assumption at best



























About Kamiya, the general rule is if Kamiya hasn't blocked you or responded in a trollish way, he probably means his answer. An example would be giving details on Dante's life:

Translations for Kamiya’s other tweets about Dante and Trish’s living situation : DevilMayCry (reddit.com)

With that said, Kamiya has been asked about the Mundus sequence before, and I would like to re-examine his answers.

When asked whether the sequence was accurate, Kamiya responds with "universe"

He later gets asked if the sequence is real, and responds by relinking his old universe answer

When asked once more if what he said was correct, he says to refer to his old answer

This paints a picture of consistency, at least to his stated intent for the scene. Keep in mind that staff that worked with Kamiya mention in the 3.1.4.2. book about the intended space scenes, and the sequence is flat stated as having happened in the Japanese game guide, which was released years before these twitter questions. The idea of Kamiya being a “troll” just chooses to ignore his actual serious answers, using arguments like “it’s just one word” to claim that it can’t be used, as if the length of the answer is what makes it valid or not, some twisted logic only useful for desperate moments or for when his answers don’t serve your scaling.

• Mundus Dying:

I want to start by saying, nice way to crop images and leave context out, it definitely helps us.

There are four scans used to “debunk” this and I am really without words for it. The pure hypocrisy of using a kamiya tweet as proof while making an essay moments prior trying to diminish them as nothing but trolling is baffling, this along with the scans cropped and the context ignored would be enough for me to just leave it at that and say these guys are being obvious liars, but since I already started and wasted enough time I will continue here.

Starting with the top left scan: "Underworld collapsing" the title should be enough but let us continue "Beginning in the hall of Mundus, Dante has exactly 5 minutes to reach the entrance of the underworld before it collapses, or he dies."

The whole thing is specifically saying Dante has a time limit to get out of the demon world or he dies due to it going kaboom, that’s crystal clear.

Now with the second scan, top right: Here is where the context starts being ignored, if you have played DMC1 you will know that Dante opens a portal to the demon world in the castle, he enters a mirror dimension and in that mirror dimension he "breaks" the seal sparda placed to get into the demon world. To top it off this part they emphasized so much happens 3 missions prior to the demon world collapsing.

Like I said, context is missing.

Now onto the good part about this scan: "Dante defeats Mundus and prepares to escape from the collapsing underworld." As we can see this is exactly what the guide from 7 years ago said, pretty consistent stuff if you ask me. And if you've seen the previous screenshot on their 4 scans, and read the top right scan, you'll notice the word collapsing underworld doesn't have the word underworld being shown, how conveniently cropped that seems to be.

Now with the third scan: Once again the ignore context. I will never know why people take this shit seriously.

This is what the whole page has to say:
魔帝ムンドゥスの最期の咆晧
トリッシュの死、
永い闘いはこうして終焉を迎えた
様々な想いが去来する胸/胞をおさえ
ダンテは古域を後/復(?)にする
古域もまた、最期の時を迎えようとしていた

トリッシュの最期を看取ったダンテは
手向けのアミュレットと魔剣を残し、
振り向かずに走り始めた。
古城が激しく鳴動する。崩壊がたまっていた。

The Last Roar of the Demon Emperor Mundus
The death of Trish.
This is how the long battle came to an end.
Various thoughts and feelings come and go in his chest.
Dante returns to the old world.
The old realm, too, was approaching its final moments.

Dante, who took care of Trish's last breath
He left an amulet and a magic sword for her.
He began to run without looking back.
The old castle rumbled violently. The collapse was accumulating

If you, dear reader, have been giving enough attention this is exactly when Dante gets out of Mundus dimension, as the page says “Dante returns to the old world” (this old world clearly being the demon world), “the old realm, too, was approaching its final moments” and this part is just pure confirmation the demon world was going kaboom with Mundus dying.

Finally the last part: “The old castle rumbled violently”, of course and you can see this in game, everything is shaking, last but not least important “the collapse was accumulating” the final nail in the coffin, the world was ending.

I have to be fair, I was told the quality is quite bad, some kanji could be wrong but the core idea is the same, the demon world was going to be destroyed.

And finally the last scan, Kamiya: I already pointed out the hypocrisy of denying twitter when it doesn’t serve you but also using it when it does, but i’m also just going to copy paste what our blog has to say about this “Another counter that some people use against the legitimacy of this feat (including our very own Matthew) is the fact that Kamiya rejected its legitimacy on Twitter. However, Kamiya was only involved with the creation of Devil May Cry 1, and after that, Itsuno took the series’s reins. Therefore, Kamiya has no authority to reject information given to us on Devil May Cry 4, and his word here is automatically discarded by default.”

All in all, this is pretty much a fact, any attempt to deny it is just pathetic.





Now about the guide putting the last part in the underworld section, this is obvious, its the end of the game and the large part of it happens in the demon world, they won’t make another section saying “the human world/ island/ castle” that’s dumb and a waste of time, space and resources when only very last 10 minutes happen in the human world, hence all of them being in the same section.

The last point is the dumbest one so far, not all demons are the same, they are all different, having different powers, moves, abilities, etc. Mundus isn’t made of a ton of different demons, argosax isn’t a half demon like urizen, abigail isn’t a blob of tendrils covered by stone, etc.

It’s completely stupid to think the rest of demon kings/gods share the same powers just because they are kings.
Not only that but we actually get a taste of Mundus' connection with the demon world in the second novel.

Note 1:













The fruit being stated to create illusions is completely irrelevant when Mundus is the one doing the feat, and if it somehow was an illusion, why exactly would a sea of stars be made on top of the battle field being far larger than it was before, on top of every single guide saying it's the demon emperor's space, everything points to him actually making the dimension, not him casting an illusion.

Note 2: narrative


Not only this argument is another failed attempt but it tries reusing the same “castle collapsing” argument that was already debunked. Dante implication isn’t about dying to the island, it's about dying fighting Mundus, a Mundus who is dying as well, the whole interaction is about Mundus wanting and going to kill dante and Dante saying Mundus will die there as well (considering he is already dying that’s a fact on his part). Also that was NOT the same dante that defeated mundus, because he had the Devil Sword Sparda amping him when he fought Mundus, and he left it to Trish right before he attempts to escape the underworld collapsing.

At the very end, right after sealing Mundus, it is plausible considering that Dante exhausted all his power fighting Mundus back to back and using the small power Trish gave to seal Mundus and as the second novel explained, a demon without juice is weak, very, very weak.


Note 3: Dante getting back









While it's true that the way Dante got out is somewhat vague, it's pretty simple if you stand still and think for more than a second, that there are two options, each of them are equally as valid.

In verse we are told the perfect amulet is used to travel between the demon world and the human world, not only that but they are part of the Devil Sword Sparda after they awaken its real form.

“Devil May Cry, Items — Perfect Amulet: "The combined form of Dante's pendant and Dark Knight's pendant. It allows entry into the Underworld."

Not only that but Trish actually uses that, she comes back from the demon world and post cutscenes, in 2, 4 and 5 we see she has the devil sword sparda as her main weapon, a weapon Dante left with her in the vault.

The other option is that Dante got BFR'd back to the underworld. The proof comes from Void Mundus, which you guys admit to being a BFR back to their original world, as explained in the Void Mundus section. If Void Mundus' death, who's just Mundus but one with the demon world, would cause a BFR upon his death, why would normal Mundus be any different when the same thing happens?

Either way, both the sparda with amulets, and Mundus' BFR upon death arguments are equally valid to use to explain how Dante even came back in the first place.

4. Void Mundus










This doesn’t ignore any context, not only that but we never claimed he has all of it, he “IS” the source of the demon world energy. Him being it doesn’t mean it stops existing in the rest of the world. Hence why he is called the “heart” The quote from the novel doesn’t help them in any form.

Now, he is the source of the demon world energy, the same energy that casually spawned the human world. This isn’t contradicted, in fact it's directly stated the world was born of darkness (darkness being the demon world). The next scan gives us more context: “"unending darkness, a crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two."

Basically the world was the demon world, from that the human world was created and after some time Pluto came and split the worlds. This energy is being produced by Void Mundus itself.

The statement is about how it all suddenly came into creation, time frame is irrelevant here, it's like saying the big bang is 4-C for taking an unknown amount of time to create our universe.















The usage of heart is pretty obvious, it means that Mundus is the center, the source of the demon world, that’s why as the demons get close to him their power starts replenishing to the point where it oversaturates their bodies with power and all of them start falling down.

Nexus in fact has been explored and explained in the series, its a point, a connection forced by Gilver, it forces the creation of the demon world upon the human world. This is something different than Argosax and Mundus fusion.

As for Void Mundus and the nexus, as the definition says; “"The central and most important point or place"

Void Mundus as the “heart” (source) and Nexus (most important place) is the most important point of existence in the world, everything that existed has stemmed from the energy he now gives birth to. Same energy that casually gave birth to the human world.

Now without Mundus that world is going to collapse, exactly like the original mundus and his relation with the demon world. Indeed they were BFR’d back to their world but as Dante said:

"We've got to get out of here," Dante said sternly. "This place is more dangerous than ever with the king dead. Let's get what we came for and run”

This is because, once again, the whole world is going to collapse now that Mundus is dead, exactly how DMC1 handled Mundus’ incoming death as the trigger for the Demon World to collapse, only stopping after he was sealed instead of killed, with no such luck in Novel 2, the world won’t hold.
In fact, the world has been fused, this isn’t some terraforming as I have explained in the Mundus merging section, it's the plan Mundus had from the start, to fuse the worlds into the original world and govern them as its only absolute ruler.





A being having no mass means nothing, by this logic any and all spirits in fiction who have any power statements can't be used because they lack mass. What’s important here are his feats, he just like the original mundus fused the worlds together again, he is the source of the demon world energy, the same energy that farted a universe into existence just because it can.

We also know for a fact that Mundus is the nexus, the heart/source, the most important thing in existence because of what he is. Literally showed that above.





Griffon mentions they are close to the demon keep, later Dante is the one that realizes they are close to the nexus, this is once again because they are getting close to Mundus himself.

Tldr, we know a lowball of how much energy void mundus actually has, he is the nexus and the heart and his death was going to cause the whole thing to blow up just like the original one. Being a void and lacking mass is a completely stupid argument to be used in fiction, especifically when we know for a fact the guy leaks enough energy to casually create a universe.

5. Beastheads

• Beastheads shake the “world”
• Beastheads embodying time
• Beastheads being stated to be able to reshape the world

Before anything I have to make sure everyone knows we aren’t using the beastheads to prove universal power, as their feats are mostly hax and tier 6, but they have shown feats, under special circumstances, that surpasses even the god tiers, we’ll talk about those later on.

Once again, this statement is being taken out of context. The “shaking” feat comes from another passage in the novel, here is the actual quotes:

“The world shook. The immutable laws of physics wrestled with forces intent on ignoring them. It was the birthing pains of a creature from a dimension anathema to our own.” DMC Vol2. p- 83

Another TL would be:

“The world is trembling. As one historian put it, this world is so fragile in its foundation that it cannot accept beings that do not follow its laws. So what would happen to the world if an alien being were to be forcibly inserted?”

Now, this is one of the extremely rare cases where World doesn’t mean the whole universe, context is needed for this:

"This is pretty quiet for the end of the world." A deflated Dante said, coddling Ebony and Ivory. "I expected something more, somehow. It's taken the wind out of my sails." DMC Vol2. p- 83

“ Dante didn't seem to notice. "I'm not saying this is bad, as far as the ends of the world go. A little too gloomy, maybe. I guess we should see what this guy's made of." DMC Vol2. p- 85
Dante, who at this point has been familiarized with actual universal threats is just bored and disappointed by the beastheads powers. Further showing this isn’t meant as the whole human world shaking, rather just the planet.

His next argument against this is “Even if it did shake the planet (it didn't as people would have noticed across the globe if that happened”

I don’t have to point out the sheer stupidity of this, you don’t need some hype man, a group telling you about how awesome something is to know what it is and what it does. Not only that but the novel isn’t about “what humans think or feel”, it's about Dante and Beryl and their adventure together, almost all the time you are seeing things from their perspective, not some random human across the globe.

Finally he is right, this feat is small country level, here in the wiki we treat it as such.

Now, I hope you remember I said the beastheads have feats that go beyond god tiers in special cases, this is when they have a host.

For context here, Dante had been trapped by Chen in a device that absorbs/destroys demonic power, something he has been using for decades to study demons as it preserves their lives.

Chen had a theory about how demons eat humans as fuel for power and replenish demon’s power, even going as far as giving power on par with Sparda:

“Chen had thought that the Beastheads would make him Sparda's equal. He'd envisioned harnessing the statue's power to become immortal and to assume complete mastery of the demon world.”

Dante as a demon and one who has one of the strongest wills in the series is capable of harnessing said power, he got those powers when the beastheads bit him along with the powers the hosts have.

“And in that moment, he and Dante both understood the reason why the Beastheads had never assimilated any of the demons that had carried it. It was the same reason Dante was able to carve his way through the gel coffin and stand in front of Chen. "The Beastheads eats us humans and replenishes you demons. It's like a power transformer for souls!"

"Probably." Dante shrugged. The power that now imbued him felt neither good nor evil. It simply was. Whoever wielded it could reshape reality to its own design, for better or for worse” DMC Vol2. p-179

The beastheads not only replenished his own power but gave him more power, power to change the world as they see fit and as Dante sees it is pure power, neither good nor evil.

This once again does not matter what kind of power is as demonic energy works for everything. This is shown immediately after Chen eats the statue, he gained power superior to that of Sparda and fought Dante and almost killed him.

Finally this last part is correct, the beastheads does not embody time, they represent time, something completely different.

As explained, one head represents the past, another the future and the last one the present.

This is more explicit with the ability to watch the future, the past and the present. Dante himself experienced this when he saw the past, the war, a young Mundus and Sparda, Ducas who saw the future (just like chen was doing moments prior) and Dante who himself probably is able to see the future but just like the novel explains, he has no knowledge or training for this.

6. Nightmare destroying the demon world












There are numerous problems in the Nightmare section, inside and outside the DMC verse. Outside of it, there is a blalant AOE fallacy with quotes like “his next best feat is also lacking in aoe”, and “He lacks both the speed and aoe to make this statement have a possible quantification”, as we are all aware, any fiction tends to ignore the principle of conservation of energy and showcase many powerful characters with low destructive effects on their surrounding area, some of them (few, to be exact) have some sort of explanation, like Dragon Ball with Ki control, but that’s not really necessary when the series itself possesses numerous blalant feats usually without much destruction, if AOE was necessary, DMC (and most verses) wouldn’t reach anything beyond Tier 8. The “slow movement” speed completely ignores the very quote showed on G1, as it mentions that Nightmare’s movements were restrained by Mundus, but even the idea of speed being necessary also puzzles me, as his powers can affect the whole DW dimension structure (scan in a later paragraph), which is a feat that doesn’t rely upon the usage speed

“Timeframe” can’t be a problem when the Demon World is infinite in size, as explained in the section on the infinite size demon world.

That also takes care of the stability/destruction argument, any of them, in a Infinite Sized dimension, is Universal. But looking into more quotes about Nightmare, including the whole paragraph that was missing from the G1 blog, and the new game Peak of Combat, we’ll see that he isn’t limited to only the stability

"正 直 、 俺 も こ の 粘 つ く 、 の よ う な 化 け 物 を 、 悪 魔 の 一 種 と し て 考 え て い い の か 判 断 に 迷 う と こ ろ だ 。 魔 帝 が 心 血 を そ そ い で 完 成 さ せ た 魔 界 の 生 物 兵 器 で 、 そ の 思 考 回 路 も 能 力 も 、 す べ て は 敵 対 者 を 殺 し つ く 、 す こ と だ け を 目 的 と し て 創 ら れ て い る 。 だ が 、 そ の 結 果 、 創 造 者 で さ え 予 想 も つ か な か っ た 悪 な 殺 機 械 が で き 上 が っ た ら し く 、 無 制 限 に 力 を 解 放 さ せ る と 魔 界 の 安 定 さ え 担 る が し か ね な い 危 険 な 存 在 に な つ ち ま つ た 。 そ こ で 、 マ ヌ ケ な 魔 帝 は 大 あ わ て で 、 こ い つ を 配 置 し た 地 点 に は よ 走 を 抑 え る た め の 拘 束 具 紋 章 と リ ン ク し て 力 場 を 発 生 さ せ る 拘 束 文 様 を セ ッ ト で 設 置 す る 八 メ メ に な っ た ワ ケ だ 。 た し か に 非 拘 束 状 態 の ナ イ ト メ ア の 力 は 凄 ま じ く 、 ゲ ル 状 の 肉 体 は あ ら ゆ る 攻 撃 を 受 け つ け な い 。 さ ら に 、 そ の 内 部 に 亜 空 間 と も 言 う べ き 異 世 界 を 生 成 し て 、 こ こ に 引 き す り こ ん だ 相 手 の 記 憶 力 ら 生 み 出 し た 魔 物 の " 影 " を け し か け る 、 ま さ に 悪 夢 め い た 能 力 を 発 揮 し て く る 。 だ か り と 言 っ て 拘 束 文 様 を 発 動 さ せ れ ば 楽 勝 っ て わ け で も な く 、 防 衛 本 能 が 高 ま っ て 硬 質 を し た 巨 体 か ら 、 さ な が ら 軍 事 兵 器 の よ う に 多 彩 な 攻 撃 を 繰 り 出 し て き や が る 。 こ い つ が 暴 走 し て 魔 界 が 滅 び ち ま え ば い い の に っ て 、 ホ ン ト に 思 う ぜ !"
Translation:
"To be honest, I'm at a loss in judging whether I should consider this sticky dark monster as a kind of demon. It is a biological weapon of the Demon World that the Demon Emperor completed with all his heart and soul, its thought circuits and ability are all created solely for the purpose of killing an adversary. However, as a result, it seems that an evil killing machine that even the creator did not anticipate was created, becoming a dangerous existence who could play a role in the stability of the Demon World if its powers were to be released indefinitely. So, the Demon Emperor was in a big hurry and at the moment when this guy was arranged, a restraining tool was placed to suppress its movement──that was the reason why a set of restraint patterns that generate a forcefield by linking with eight emblems was set. Certainly, the unrestrained Nightmare's power was terrifying, and its gel-like body does not accept any attacks. In addition, it creates a different world inside it which can be called a subspace, exerting a truly nightmare ability to cast the "shadow" of the demon that was created from the memory of the opponent who was pulled in it. If you could call it a restraint pattern, it wasn't an easy victory and its defense instinct increases and its body hardens, attacking with a variety of attacks like a military weapon. I wish this guy would run off and have the Demon World perish!”
1)The first highlighted sentence in the paragraph talks about how indefinite release of Nightmare’s power will play a role in the stability of the Demon World. I laugh at how G1 thinks this is some sort of anti-feat. Obviously a being capable of realm destruction would cause instability just by existing, because that is what the text directly says. The mere removal of seal/chains will allow Nightmare destabilize the Demon World, not unlike Dragon Ball characters shaking the world around them by removing restraints or not holding back, only in this case it's Nightmare destabilizing the entire Demon World. Which would come under significantly affecting infinite structure feat.
2)The very quote says the DW will perish under Nightmare’s powers, which would be its complete destruction. This is wished by the developer himself that the Nightmare "perish" or destroy the Demon World itself. Which shows that the developer themselves have faith in Nightmare’s abilities to do as stated. And obviously this is the Demon World which is perishing, not the population or society, so its universal destruction blatantly not life wiping.
The Peak of Combat scan:

冥界 据说魔王创造了一种强大的武器他甚至担心它会摧毁 他自己的王国,封印了他的力量来阻止它。凭借他巨 大的力量,他可以毫不费力地举起整个冥界的结构或 摧毁它。 只有与她的创造者相媲美的存在才能超越他的强度。 一件武器将成为任何实体的噩梦,无论是活着的还是 死去的。

V1: The Underworld

The demon king is said to have created a powerful weapon that he even feared would destroy his own kingdom, and sealed his power to stop it. With his immense great power, he could effortlessly lift the entire structure of the underworld or destroy it. Only a being comparable to her creator could surpass his strength. A weapon would be a nightmare for any entity, living or dead.

V2: Underworld

The Demon is said to have created a powerful weapon he even feared would destroy his own kingdom, sealing his power to stop it. With his great power, he could effortlessly lift the entire structure of the underworld or destroy it. Only an existence comparable to her creator can surpass his intensity. A weapon will become a nightmare for any entity, whether alive or dead.

V3: In the underworld, the demon king is said to have created a powerful weapon he feared would destroy his own kingdom, sealing his power to stop it. With his great, great power, he could lift the entire structure of the underworld without difficulty or destroy it. Only an existence comparable to that of her creator can exceed its intensity. A weapon would be a nightmare for any entity, alive or dead.

In any translation, the two feats are solid: Nightmare can destroy the entire structure of the Demon World, as well as lift it. These are very, very clear Universal feats of power and lifting strength being stated, again, to Nightmare. One of, if not the biggest lore detail about the character is him being a demon with enough power to destroy their world, consistently stated on multiple DMC media even with different levels of details, but the feat is there, and is the more direct one among all of them.

7. Savior making a dimension






The stairway to heaven or hell is clearly talking about the entire board game area, it's literally shaped like a stairway, where you have to go up each step in order to reach Sanctus to stop the Savior from doing anything. It couldn't have made it more blatant than that. How do you jump to the conclusion that the Savior's dimensions aren't made by himself and are just dimensional pockets when you earlier in the same paragraph admit to it being a creation?
“Nightmarish” itself gets paired up with the idea of it being a “nightmare” or a “vision,” but in this context, the area that’s specifically stated to be recreated is Ferris Hill’s.
Even the scan you use flat out say it's a nightmarish creation, meaning the Savior, who's controlling the dice game, is making these realms to begin with.



The being that's goading Nero to strike them down is the DICE itself, not the demons that Nero fights, the Dice itself talks to Nero the first time you see it explaining how the rules of the dice game works, explaining to you that you need to strike the dice in order to progress to the next area. And once again it talks to Nero doing the same thing at Mission 19. Hell when Dante shows up in the first Dice game, he destroys the Dice itself, and there's no ghostly voice that appears whatsoever, Occam's Razor would point to the fact that it was indeed the Dice itself that was speaking to Nero when talking about the game, saying otherwise with no proof whatsoever is mind-boggling.



We have never once used the Savior as an actual feat for Universal, the main reason why everyone has a High 4-C rating in the first place is because of Savior, and it's from the fact that he made a pocket dimension with a sun inside of it, something you guys admit is an actual creation.



Nero in that entire mission is inside the Savior and is inside a nightmarish creation of these areas, there's no mention anywhere in the game that says that they were sent to an alternate reality at all. Occam's Razor would point to the fact that the Savior made it if it was inside of his body and there's statements of these areas being a nightmarish creation, you need to prove that these are actual alternate realities as opposed to creation because you haven't shown any scans whatsoever to back up your points, just "We don't know if this specific thing happened" because reasons.
Two, comparing Saviour to Beastheads in saying BFR'd Nero to Alternate Timeline is fallacious on many levels, not only is Saviour incapable of even basic space-time BFR, the thought that it can BFR and reverse BFR to alternate timeline with precise idea as to where to drop Nero in time-point is absolutely baseless.
Even Beastheads isn't capable of that accuracy, not to mention Beastheads is sole possessor of that ability with deep lore and mechanics behind why that is. In short Saviour is incapable of BFR thus the dimensions didn't already exist somewhere outside the timeline. It was created as said in-guide and seen in visuals inside Saviour itself.



How the hell can you go out of your way to claim that the Prime Guides are not legit source for feats and lore, when in your own blog, in the Sparda Physiology google doc that you've made, you linked a Prima Guide scan to argue that Nero and co. can resist Energy Absorption? This is peak double standard right here, and you have no right claiming this isn't legit while also using said information for your own research. But let's ignore this blatant double standard and pick apart this reddit thread.

• The guides being made with an early build does not prove that the information in these guides are automatically wrong, the scan for the savior here, in a Prima Guide, is not wrong whatsoever, that sequence of events is 1 to 1 to a tee. Nero fights the angelo enemies first, just like the guide said. The second platform being identical in terms of color coded spots, with the green and white orb in the corners, is 100% accurate to the final product, on top of needing to role a 6 in order to move to the next area on your first dice roll. Berial being the next foe to fight, as shown in the Prima Guide, is 100% accurate to the final product. There are no changes or alterations from this part of the game, so the reddit's point on how "early versions of the game is what the guides are based off on" doesn't work here.
• The only example this guy mentions on how any of these games have incorrect information in their guides is from Brady Games' FFX-2 guide, not Prima Games btw, those are two completely different companies at the time so that argument doesn't hold any ground here for Prima Games guides.

Hodgson moved to LA and worked on his first strategy guides at GameFan -- for games like Super Mario 64, Soul Blade and Doom 64 -- under the magazine’s GameFan Books division. He flitted among various publishers and magazines until 2000. He called Prima, at the time one of the biggest strategy guide companies (its main competitor, BradyGames, would later be bought by publisher Penguin Random House and folded into Prima). He sent Prima his Metal Gear Solid guide, and they assigned him Armored Core.

• This same article that the reddit posts references also has this little gem right here.

Hodgson seems to always go above and beyond. His humor is often self-deprecating, but he’s also proud when he talks about some of the things he’s accomplished within the limited medium of strategy guides, like the note he received from Hideo Kojima about his Metal Gear Solid guide in 1998.

“He loved the guide. He liked the fact that I'd put box-outs for the history of the forklift truck in the first level,” Hodgson said. “Strategy guides were usually just ‘go here, do this, go here, do that.’ I wanted it to be a bit more of an 'official mission handbook,' we called it.” Kojima said he’d shown the guide to his mother, who didn’t really understand video games but of course knew what a book was.

• If Hideo Kojima himself, the man behind Metal Gear Solid, approved of his guidebooks for his OWN GAME and had no issues showing it to his mother, I think it's safe to say that his work is more than reliable enough to be used. Also side note, games like Skyrim, Fallout 4 and the Witcher 3, open world games aren't remotely comparable to linear games like Devil May Cry, where you can find everything much faster than open world games where there's endless ways to go and not linear level designs to explore, just wanted to point out that little Apples to Oranges comparison there.

8. 4D demon world







Okay, to start this part the demon world energy does not only stop time, as the blog puts it: “The Demon World Energy is capable to warp the space-time in a Universal scale,can create time paradoxes,can affect not only the present, but also the past and future and is capable to warp the entire of the universe”

Of course if you read the Argosax section, we debunked their attempts at hand waving this away. And of course, all of this happens because Argosax is fusing the worlds together. This fusion is messing with the fabric of space-time of the human world, something that here in the wiki is considered 4D, something that starts from Low 2-C.

Low 2-C | Universe level+: Characters who are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums of a universal scale. However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either:

A) Equivalent to a large extra dimensional space. That is, a higher-dimensional "bulk" space which embeds lower-dimensional ones (Such as our universe) as subsets of itself, whose dimensions are not microscopic / compactified.

Since the demon world fits the second criteria while the human world fits the first one it's safe to say this works easily.

Demon world fits in a sense that it works as the membrane the human world is floating in since the human world is nothing but a piece of the original world of darkness which is the demon world.

On the other hand, the rest are examples of demonic energy messing with time and/or space and they are correct, that’s messing with only 1 temporal or spatial dimension, something that isn’t 4D and that we've already removed from the blog, and have been trying to get out and will likely result in a thread to get it taken out (if it hasn’t already).

As for Void Mundus, we already explained and debunked their arguments, you can go back and check them again or check the regular mundus part as some of them are the same contextually.

9. Infinite size demon world

Here is their entire response regarding the infinite size demon world.

Let's go with the manga, the text isn’t just “flavor”, if these guys bothered to source their points they would have linked the complete manga page, these guys also happened to use a japanese raw text from us that flat out said the demon world is infinite so… yeah. This darkness is the demon world, its directly stated to be that: “The darkness became the realm of demons”, the next page further confirms this:

"But one day the lord of the dark world said..."

"These realms were once united, so why not rule them as one?"

"From that era forward the dark fought to control the light and the light struggled to defy the dark"

All of them refer to the demon world as this darkness.

At no point in the series the darkness refers to something else but the demon world. Implying it means “they can’t see the end” is wrong considering 3 demon gods were able to mess with the whole thing, demon gods that mess with space and time when doing this.

Now we know they are separate time-space continuums, this is pretty obvious and we have used some scans about this in the whole blog for a while now but let me bring some.

• The samsara is used to restore rifts in time/space in the demon world
• The gigapede literally only made his way to the human world due to rifts in space-time
• Oranguerra literally only crossed because a rift in space-time
• A rift between the worlds allows demons to cross
• There is even a dimensional wall between the worlds (that does nothing to the demon world mind you)

There is more, like Mallet Island having a ******-up time passage due to its deep connection with the demon world, the demon world messing with time/space when Argosax was fusing the worlds together, etc.

I know that “unending” can have some different definitions but the context here is clear, it’s about the universe, the demon world universe. There is no way to twist it without ignoring context.

Now they also said this “The Demon world might also have an edge. The Unsacred Hellgate, the edge which divides the Demon World from the Human World, seen in the finale to Devil May Cry 3.”

And this guy ignores context yet again, the area is called “the edge which divides the demon world from the human world” for a single, very obvious reason, the portal to the human world is right ******* there. This portal is the edge that divides the worlds and is situated right there, Vergil even comments on this saying that the portal to the human world is closing.

All in all, the main argument for the infinite size demon world comes from the manga, specifically because it's told from the point of an omniscient narrator, the addition of the sargasso and the astronomical board are just addons but sadly the translation doesn’t help much.

9. Speed

This one is gonna be a lot faster to tackle so let's get through this.





An actual translation of this page would be nice btw, also the guide refers to this being a particle beam.



The laser is literally stated to be a laser, that could not be more blatant than it already does, on top of you guys listing that laser feat for Nero's section of speed feats so that's moot, also if you're going to accept Link having laser dodging feats just from the fact that he dodged a laser, you have to accept this feat being legit for Dante too.



Even if we currently don't have them at that speed calc, we already proved Mundus made it so that argument doesn't work, also Dante has dodged numerous attacks prior to that cutscene so that point is irrelevant.

Everything else we have no comment on since we already don't accept it on the pages as of now. The Nightmare stuff is also irrelevant when the particle beams scale to mundus in the first place so yeah.

The miscellaneous stuff we're not gonna address since we agree with these points, except for the Qliphoth tree, because there's no contradiction for the game, on top of it not being a contradiction to any of the feats listed above.

All in all, this entire refute to every single universal feat is just flat out terrible. Numerous instances of the blog contradicting itself by using specific sources in their own research while claiming that using said source is not reliable, cropping images or taking shit out of context, or blatantly ignore the translation that disproves their argument, among many others should be a clear sign that you shouldn't take this blog seriously.

 

[KLOL506]

Ant tagged you? No offense but that seems like a gross overreaction for a site that doesn't even follow our Tiering System. I understand the point Your making but it's still pretty silly to act as if the debunk blog from a different site entirely is gonna have any effect here. I'm sure there are people on Reddit writing walls of text as to why the Tiering System here is wrong with citations, but nobody is making threads here about it.


if this came from a different site then I see no reason why we should even entertain especially if the guy ain't even apart of this wiki.

Ant tagged me too.

Honestly this entire thing went up even more than it should've because a banned user called JohnCenaNation contacted Ant off-site.

Ant then contacted Glassman, me, DarkGrath and a bunch of other users to respond.

 

[KLOL506]

Dividing the entire planet's surface area by our standard 0.68m^2 CA is a 750 trillion times difference...the actual result is probably high Tier 8 at BEST, garbage. This also includes several favorable assumptions to skew the result entirely toward Hellboy's side.

Ha, as if that's the only thing you wanna worry about

 

[ShivaShakti]

Blog: "This is a Prima guide statement it can't be used!"

Also Blog: Uses a Prima guide scan as proof for an ability right after

Yeah this blog is honestly pretty bad and contradicts itself quite repetitiously.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

That blog was WAY more popular than people think (and Glass called it), DMC would start to lose it's credibility without a proper post debating the arguments

 

[LordGinSama]

Ant tagged me too.

Honestly this entire thing went up even more than it should've because a banned user called JohnCenaNation contacted Ant off-site.

Yeah that's like really stupid, I definitely wouldn't be happy if someone wasted my time on something like this. Did you guys bother explaining that this really shouldn't effect us in the first place? Like I get wanting to clear misconceptions up but this is just a genuine waste of time unless we're approached with a downgrade from believers of this load.

That blog was WAY more popular than people think (and Glass called it), DMC would start to lose it's credibility without a proper post debating the arguments

Yeah I get that to an extent, first blood is always nice but how popular is it really? Shit this is the first time I'm even hearing this website.

 

[LordGinSama]

Good work on that counter however, put yourselves on the back for that shit.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Welp, figured this was gonna come sooner than later, but before we start, I'd like to thank everyone in the DMC Group for helping out with this entire response, we wouldn't have gotten anywhere without their help, much appreciated. With that out of the way, let's start.

 

[Cyberblader90]

the real question is, how can i convince yall to read shaman king

 

[DaReaperMan]

BOI.

 

[Livinmeme]

the real question is, how can i convince yall to read shaman king

say that is bleach with a story and a actual meaning

 

[LordGinSama]

Jesus the more I look at that site the more I wonder HOW it even reached here. The ******* interface reminds me of something from 2009, and it's based around ScrewAttacks Death Battle.


Red flags left and right son.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

say that is bleach with a story and a actual meaning

 

[DaReaperMan]

Oh right we said that with a bleach fan right over there...

 

[Sevil Natas]

obviously i agree with glass here, also for those wondering, that blog made its way to comic vine, and was used to "debunk" universal DMC there so y'know its really that popular

 

[KLOL506]

Jesus the more I look at that site the more I wonder HOW it even reached here. The ******* interface reminds me of something from 2009, and it's based around ScrewAttacks Death Battle.


Red flags left and right son.

Trust me, the first time I saw the blog I myself had the same feelings.

Life is weird like that.