Devil May Cry - Slight Low-Tiers Upgrade

This was a point I briefly discussed in this thread.

In the recent chapter of Visions of V, it was stated that Nightmare was created by Mundus in an attempt to create "A manifestation of ruin". It goes on to say that the resulting demon was so powerful that he could "lay waste to the demon world". To ensure that Nightmare would never get out of control, Mundus removed Nightmare's free will to ensure that it could not betray him.

Such a statement would be indictive of a high tier, but I'm not going to jump on the wank bandwagon here. This statement could be percieved in several notable ways.

1: Nightmare could destroy the entire demon world (High-End Interpretation)

2: Nightmare could severely damage the demon world (Mid-End Interpretation)

3: Nightmare is superior to all of the major demons in the demon world, barring some exceptions (Low-End Interpretation)

Technically speaking, I'm doubtful that Mundus would have feared Nightmare if the Low-End Interpretation was correct. However, the only other options here definitely seem like wank for a character who has so far only been compared to DMC1 Base Dante.

Also, we know that Nightmare couldn't be comparable to Mundus, since DMC1 Base Dante beat Nightmare + Trish at the same time yet got instantly stomped by a partially sealed Mundus. As such, Mundus' fear of Nightmare becomes a moot point, and as such it should be considered there are other reasons for his fear of Nightmare beyond just it's initial strength.

As such, I believe the Low-End Interpretation to be the most reliable.

So, how would this change tiering? Well, in the event that we accept the Low-End Interpretation, this would put Nightmare as being vastly superior to the likes of Griffon, as Nightmare "laying waste to the demon world" would be interpreted as Nightmare successfully and effortlessly eliminating every major demon in the demon world (again, with some exceptions). Griffon, while undoubtedly being one of the more powerful demons, is most certainly not as strong as the combined forces of the entire demon world on their own. And given the immense amount of other demons scaled from Griffon, it would be unreasonable to say that a being more powerful than all of them is simply comparable.

With this in mind, these are the changes I would suggest:

In the event that Nightmare ever gets a page, he should be listed as "At least 7-B"

Off the top of my head, the characters who would scale to this would be DMC1 Base Dante and Nelo Angelo, though I'd imagine there are more examples. Also, it must be noted that Griffon does not scale. Nor do any of the characters who scale to Griffon.

Thoughts?

This is very awoo

Hmm

Before the Nightmare told us that by the times of DMC3, Mundus was weak, to the point of losing to a 100% Dante or Vergil, that's why he was waiting for their battle, hoping that the loser would be weakened enough to Mundus be capable of defeating Dante or Vergil, and they were Low 7-B

Nightmare scales to 7-B, so the fact that Mundus was afraid of it fits perfectly on what Before the Nightmare told us and with our scalling

However, with that statement, I agree that Nightmare needs to be "At least 7-B" at minimum, and yeah, DMC1 Dante beating both Nightmare and Trish at the same time shows the beast he already was by that time, no wonder why Griffon was defeated 3 times casually

DMC1 Nightmare might need a profile, now he's important to scalling

Thank you for your input. I'll change it to "At least 7-B" in the OP, just to stay on the conservative side.

I think we should change DMC1 Dante's AP section to this:

At least City level (Much stronger than before, capable of casually defeating Griffon three times, who can cover Mallet Island on a thunderstorm, defeated both Trish and Nightmare at the same time, and the later was stated to be capable of "lay waste to the Demon World". Was only rivaled by his brother, Vergil)

Also, Mundus being capable of removing Nightmare's free will might be something

Yeah, I was curious about that myself. I'm not sure what exactly that would be, but it seems like an impressive ability.

seems low interpretation could work for scaling purposes

I like to think that the idea of the TL saying Nightmare can "lay waste to the Demon World" could be interpreted like any char who isn't capable of destroying the planet but can cause some major destruction to its surface (yes I know the Demon World isn't a planet or such, just making a kind of comparison or similarity here). Though that also would mean having to fight off the various amounts of demons who live there so there's that too.

Aside that, I think low end interpretation works best to keep things at a more believable level. High end just doesn't work out at all since that can imply a LOT of things there, especially concerning base DMC1 Dante (Imagine if he could be 3-A from this tho lol)

I am with the low range for the above reasons and the skill seems a better variant of the mind hax of mundus

I agree with Oliver's deduction at the low range and the mind hax.

Agree with Redgrave, there was a similar statement about Baul being referred to have trembled the demon realm, but that was for how good he was with his sword.

I created a profile for Nightmare and fixed DMC1 Dante AP section with the new scalling

According to Devil May Cry 5 ― Visions of V ― chapter 8, Nightmare has the power to destroy Underworld and Mundus sealed its power. This is actually from Devil May Cry's Strategy Guide, which is emphasized again in the manga. In that book, Nightmare was called "Nightmare-╬▒ (Alpha)".-DMC Wiki Nightmare trivia

Can anyone with the strategy guide confirm this? It could clear up what "Lay waste to the demon world" meant

https://mangarock.com/manga/mrs-serie-100438674/chapter/mrs-chapter-200108104

Mundus also restrained Nightmare since its too dangerous, Dante fought the being three times. In the manga, the being is bigger and ends up engulfing V.

so could he have fought a sealed version instead then?

I agree with this upgrade.

Dante did not fight a weaker version of Nightmare. Let me explain.

That's what I thought upon first reading that segment. However, it is not quite the case due to the wording. It states he "bound and restrained the power he once sought, it was created as a mere weapon with no will of its own. All it would do is obey its master's orders".

"Bound" and "restrained" power does not necessarily mean that he has less power in any way. All that implies is that his power is under strict control. The next part confirms this, stating that the change Nightmare underwent was that it "had no will of its own" and that it would only "obey its masters orders".

I had to read the passage a couple of times out of confusion before making this CRT, but there is nothing in there that states or even implies that Nightmare was less powerful than they were before. All it states is that Nightmare was now completely under the control of Mundus and had no will of its own, so it was no longer a threat to him.

It can also be deduced quite easily; Mundus sealing away Nightmares powers and still choosing to use it as a weapon anyway is contradictory. Also, there is no reason that removing Nightmare's free will would be causal of a loss in power, or vice-versa. If Mundus had the ability to remove Nightmare's free will, as we see demonstrated in that chapter, it would be non-sensual to do any more.

TL;DR: The sealed version of Nightmare was no weaker than its original version. It purely had its free will removed.

Hmmm. Guess that makes sense. If not for this explanation I'd wonder the same thing as what Red said.

But it does make sense that Nightmare being restrained and bounded in this context was more to keep it under control than it being weaker. That, and losing its free will and being made completely subservient to Mundus's orders.

Yeah. My point isn't to say that it's impossible for Mundus to have made Nightmare weaker, mind you. Theoretically, that could be a decent strategy if Mundus was afraid of him. However, what the chapter says does not confirm or imply this in any way, despite the weird wording, and it'd be unreasonable to assume that he did based on the very limited information.

Bump