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Destiny Tier 1 Revision

WHYNAUT

WHYNAUT

8,895
969
Finally, revision time! This has been getting discussed for a while now. Currently the Destiny cosmology is tiered as At least 2-A, Possibly Low 1-C with the Winnower and the Gardener transcending that. But the Destiny cosmology is even larger than thought before. There’s various pieces of information I’d like to bring to light. I’m not pushing for any specific tiers, but I feel like these parts of the lore should at least be brought up.



The Pyramidion​


The Pyramidion is a Vex structure that is connected to the rest of the Vex network. In the game the player enters the Pyramidion on a mission to destroy a Vex Mind and various moments of interesting dialogue occur between Asher Mir and Ikora Rey, with the former being the foremost expert on Vex and the latter being the leader of Warlocks (the intellectual class of Guardians).
I would like to note that I am not knowledgeable about the mathematical terms that are mentioned and as such am not certain this qualifies for Tier 1.

https://commons.ishtar-collective.net/t/the-pyramidion-strike/1413


“Asher: You should now be entering a Hilbert space, if the Taken have not misaligned the Pyramidion’s base geometric intuitions.

Ghost: Gesundheit.

Asher: I did not sneeze, you fool. It is an infinite dimensional functional space, the Vex often- oh, why am I wasting my breath!“

“Asher: If your current eigenstate is comparable to my historical data, I predict you should now find yourself in a vast desert of tiny, cubic crystals. Climb straight up the Sierpinski carpet and then through the manifold. Brakion is not far now.“

“Ikora: Keep us appraised of your progress, please. There’s no way for us to know if you’re busy fighting, or if you’ve transcended this reality.

Asher: Indeed. It’s entirely probable that the Vex are simulating our interactions with you at this very moment.“


The Vex have contrsucted a Hilbert space that is apparently an infinite dimensional function space. Asher also mentions climbing a Sierpinski carpet, which is one of the Fractals of the Hausdorff Dimension. On top of that Ikora notes the player may have already transcended their reality. If this does qualify, to my knowledge it would be High 1-B.



The Exodus Black​


Next is a feat of the Darkness. During the Collapse the Exodus Black crashed into Nessus due to space and time being warped.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/exodus-down

Impact Velocity — Lore Entry — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

'Captain, this conveyance's top speed is a fraction of the Exodus Black's when it crashed into Nessus!' 'Try not to find out for yourself.' —Failsafe — FAILSAFE NAVIGATIONAL AI RECOVERY PROTOCOL EXBLK .QAR UNRECOVERABLE (!CFIT !) EXBLK.CVDR ONLINE 32% INTEGRITY DEST : KOI-571.05 DIST : 151pc...
www.ishtar-collective.net www.ishtar-collective.net


"Ship's guess is that our orbital momentum—what we'd call a four-vector, for the dimensions of space and time—was somehow folded away into six extra dimensions."

“UNAUTH PROGRAM INJECTION DETECTED. CUADRIDIMENSIONAL STRUCTURE COMPROMISED. ATTEMPTING MITIGATION.“


I do not know whether what seems to be vector space qualifies under the tiering system. If it doesn’t then I’d like to know what this gets treated as in practice. And if it does count then it would be High 1-C.



The Flower Game​


Last but not least is the flower game played by the Gardener and the Winnower. These are what the Light and the Darkness come from, the creators of the Destiny verse.


The Gardener and the Winnower play a game called the Flower Game. This game represents existence and to them it is two-dimensional grid. It is explained that the game can contain a copy of itself, which can then also contain a copy of itself ad infinitum.

Eventually the Gardener and the Winnower got into a fight, due to a disagreement over how the game should be played. The two of them became parts of the game and changed its rules. During their fight reality as we now know it was created and their fight went on, which is how the Light and the Darkness came to be.


So in short the Game of Flowers is a version of the Destiny game and there’s infinite nested copies of it and the Gardener and the Winnower see the entire game as two dimensional. When not taking into account the other feats, this would make the Flower Game in its entirety High 1-B and the Gardener and the Winnower Low 1-A.

Of course this changes if the Pyramidion is also accepted, since it is part of a single layer of the Flower Game.



Overview​


The Pyramidion could be High 1-B.

The Darkness may have a High 1-C feat.

The Flower Game is at least High 1-B.

The Gardener and the Winnower are at least Low 1-A.

I say "at least" because it could be higher, depending on whether the Pyramidion qualifies for Tier 1.



Scaling​


I’d like to save the scaling for after it’s been determined which feats are eligible for Tier 1. There is however not much to scale as this is basically all related to the god tiers of the verse.



Conclusion​


It was decided that the Vex Collective should be rated as such: "At least 2-A, Likely Low 1-C, Possibly High 1-B". Oryx' eventual AP would scale to this. And the Gardener and the Winnower will be rated like this: "At least Low 1-C, Possibly Low 1-A", when they get their profiles.

Agree: Ultima, Crimson, Tago, WHYNAUT, Hl3, Cinos, Catalyst, Wok

Disagree: -
 
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You've already seen my thoughts on the Pyramidon and the Darkness thing, don't think saying "functional space" or vector space is enough for the dimensions to qualify.

Do agree with Low 1-A Gardener and Winnower.
 
I'm not entirely how it being a functional space would make it qualify myself, but I remember Ultima saying it was able to used for tiering because of that. However, I don't think he's given his opinion on that recently, and whether or not that counts for tiering should probably be gotten out of the way first because it changes everything else.
 
I feel the opposite way to Crimson but I don’t really care anyway.

I think vector spaces should qualify for legitimate tier 1, most rl ones are R^n afaik and Hilbert Spaces are vector spaces as well so yeah.

As for the Winnower scan it’s a downward hierarchy so I don’t know why we would start from the bottom, the simulations scan seems kinda weird and could be interpreted differently as just “there be a lot of combinations“ ig, the Winnower and Gardener’s game is different (as well as being more complex) so it’s possible it ain’t 2-D (and even then I doubt its actually 2-D, just 2-D in the way a chess board is. I mean it even references structures emerging from it that show it isn’t 2-D, but the refutation for that argument is “well it isn’t actually 2-D, just mathematically 2-D to them” and I’m not about to argue that because I would probably be wrong) and there is never any statement to the hierarchy of computers being “ad infinitum”, just that it is continuous (which even implies it isn’t infinite).

So I guess those are my shitty 2 cents coming from someone who doesn’t know the verse very well.
 
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It isn't really downwards or upwards. The base game is Destiny as seen in the game, 2-A to Low 1-C. The dimensional values don't change with each copy of the game, but they are nested, which implies a hierarchy. The reason I say ad infinitum is because the game can contain a copy of itself and these copies can also contain copies. This is evident because of the fact it says "nested copies", plural. There's no reason copies would suddenly stop being able to contain copies, otherwise it wouldn't be a faithful copy. Even if the game wasn't literally 2-D, which isn't implied by anything, it would still just be a small part of the Garden, which the Gardener and Winnower can affect as a whole.
 
Except it’s continuous, evidenced by the “In it, you may construct a universal computer with the power to simulate, very slowly, any other computer imaginable and thus simulate whole realities, including nested copies of the flower game itself”, it’s not that they already exist there, just that they are and can be created (meaning it’s continuous). Secondly if more simulations were being made under the 2-A/ low 1-C ”game” it would not change the “dimensional value”, it would just be a computer there which would simulate more computers at arbitrary ontological levels under it, just like we can imagine a computer doing in the real world. Creating fictional hierarchies does not mean you suddenly get your reality to transcend up a place.
 
But the status of the game relative to the Gardener and the Winnower does not change, so numbers don't matter in the first place. It isn't just a fictional hierarchy however, since each copy is still very much its own separate entity. It's not like writing a book and saying that you're now a higher tier for having created a lower fictionial world as the Winnower says that even it cannot know what will happen within these copies.
 
“But the status of the game relative to the Gardener and the Winnower does not change, so numbers don't matter in the first place. It isn't just a fictional hierarchy however, since each copy is still very much its own separate entity. It's not like writing a book and saying that you're now a higher tier for having created a lower fictionial world as the Winnower says that even it cannot know what will happen within these copies.”

I

what

Okay so I’m not going to assume what you thought any of that had to do with anything- I misread your argument at first, since you didn’t really refute my point about the low 1-C game having no proof of being the lowest level of the hierarchy. I assumed you meant something along the lines of “the dimensional value doesn’t change when more computers are placed under it as it would have to do so to have more than 3 computers under it, ergo it is the lowest level of the hierarchy” (and honestly your current argument about the layers of transcendence being different to a “dimensional value” would work against that).

Just to begin though, this entire thing is a meta fictional hierarchy. Just because the players don’t have plot manipulation for it doesn’t mean it stops being that. I can’t control my dreams yet if we visualise my comprehension of certain cognitive functions as belonging to some manner of abstract object being created or merely a platonic “thing” affecting me, it would be considered of arbitrarily lower ontological level under our system.

Let me lay out my points which you can provide rebuttals to at your leisure in order without mysteriously dropping one topic or confusingly intersecting one topic with another:
1)It’s a continuous hierarchy going downwards (justifications in previous comments above and in the ducking scan where it says the computers are being created by themselves). This means two things:
a) There is no reason to assume the low 1-C game is the lowest possible level
b) Because it is continuous there is no reason to believe it goes down and infinitum
2) The board is not mathematically 2-D in regards to the gardener and winnower and I mentioned two reasons why this is the case above; meaning there is not “nothing which implies this” or at least that such a notion is debatable
3) The computer statement is weird in general because the rules of the game are stated and the only extra “stuff“ in it are products of the environment. The computer thing could be a reference to how versatile and complex the game is, and how a computer using some kind of parallel processing would need to be used to simulate a large amount of information on it (relative to how much information there is in the game)
4)And if you feel the need to debate this point, I propose the statement “the hierarchy is inherently meta fictional” for reasons detailed above.

counter 1, 1a and 1b individually, thank you.
 
To clarify what I said about dimensional values not changing, each of the copies views their reality as 2-A to low 1-C. However they still transcend each other similarly to other verses like SCP.

Well to take your example of dreams, there's multiple verses that only exist as someone's dream and are still put at tier 1 or 2 with the one dreaming the verse up getting the tier needed to create all of that if not outright ascending it. I get where you're coming from, but to my knowledge our standards aren't that strict. Of course I may be mistaken in which other users could give input on that too.

1) Not much to adress here. Yes the hierarchy goes downwards, but the fact that so many copies can exist at lower levels could also mean that the original just exists at a high level already.
a) As explained above each copy should view their own reality that way, which would include the lowest possible level.
b) The point isn't that it goes on ad infinitum, but rather that by the way they present it, it can go on ad infinitum.
2) You mentioned the game the Gardener and the Winnower play being more complex and as such possibly not being 2-D.

"And yet this game is nothing compared to the game played by the gardener and the winnower. It resembles that game as a seed does a flower—no, as a seed resembles the star that fed the flower and all the life that made it."

But this doesn't say anything about the way they see the game. It could just as easily be argued that this means the cosmology is even larger. It's an extra bit of information that is too vague to do anything with.
And further you mentioned the fact that structures emerge from it, which would indicate it's not actually 2-D, but these structures emerge within the game itself, the same game that was stated to be two dimensional. But if you're referring to Gardener and the Winnower interacting with structures from the game instead, then I don't really understand your point as they are evidently capable of interfering with the game to begin with just like so many other transcendant beings in ficiton.

3) I don't have much to state here. It could be a reference to that, it could also not. I will say though that any other cases of "universal computers" and "simulating entire realities" in Destiny have involved the Vex and were quite literal.
4) And to that I respond with my aforementioned point about dreams and site standards.

Anyway I'd like to see some input on this from others too. If the Flower Game doesn't get accepted that's fine too. As I said before I'm not pushing for any particular tiers.
 
0) (Why did you mess the system up smh) Yes, that would be a metafictional hierarchy, we agree on this.

1)What do you mean by "the original"? Also I would just like to point out that you certainly weren't saying "yes it goes downwards" a while ago but aite.
a)Well then that's literally saying all of destiny should be possibly/likely 1-B or High 1-B if you think that the lowest possible one would be low 1-C regardless of where our profiles are actually set. Argument from absurdity aside, reality equalisation is based around assuming the area of the hierarchy we are best acquainted with is the base. As in, 3-D beings there are 3-D and therefore everything ontologically above or below it is ranked ontologically above or below a 3-D reality. If the actual destiny verse we know is high in the hierarchy that means everything below it is 11-A- 11-C (jumping past 11-B for obvious reasons you yourself have stated). To me the scan is at best (discounting the 3) section) like "One person transcends the reality the verse takes place in through dreaming about it, therefore we can assume that because someone in that reality should be able to dream and then dream about someone dreaming, etc """"""""""ad infinitum""""""""""" the original being wasn't low 1-C or low 2-C but actually low 1-A"
b)Okay so are you saying that since it can go endlessly downwards and the Gardener and Winnower won't have their own existence affected then the Gardener and Winnower are above any possible hierarchy that can be manifested?

2)
i)""And yet this game is nothing compared to the game played by the gardener and the winnower. It resembles that game as a seed does a flower—no, as a seed resembles the star that fed the flower and all the life that made it."

But this doesn't say anything about the way they see the game. It could just as easily be argued that this means the cosmology is even larger. It's an extra bit of information that is too vague to do anything with."

Usually greater complexity added to 2-D games can mean an increase in dimension, this is supported by the fact that the entire point of the first part of the text starts off by explaining how strikingly simple it is in concept, this being represented by the 2 dimensional nature of it.

ii)"And further you mentioned the fact that structures emerge from it, which would indicate it's not actually 2-D, but these structures emerge within the game itself, the same game that was stated to be two dimensional. But if you're referring to Gardener and the Winnower interacting with structures from the game instead, then I don't really understand your point as they are evidently capable of interfering with the game to begin with just like so many other transcendant beings in ficiton."
I literally said I didn't want to argue that particular point because it could be refuted so easily. It was another argument in the same comment I was referring to, respond to that.

3) I mean it literally says after it " And the game is undecidable. No one can predict exactly how the game will play out except by playing it." so basically the idea would seem to be "There's so many possibilities even these vastly advanced computers can't do anything"

4)Aite
 
WHYNAUT said:
Hilbert Space stuff
Click to expand...
Eh. That doesn't seem solid to me, especially considering that we are given no information whatsoever about this Hilbert Space other than the fact that it exists; there's no mentions of what it encompasses, what it consists of, or even what it is exactly, and the fact it's pretty clearly mentioned as technobabble doesn't do it any favours, either.

That said, a Hilbert Space is pretty much just a generalization of the concept of an euclidean (flat, infinite space) space that can be extended to an infinite number of dimensions, and real coordinate spaces (which are the basis for Low 2-C and above) are themselves pretty basic examples of Hilbert Spaces, so I wouldn't be opposed to that being "possibly High 1-B" or something along those lines, if only for a lack of information.

WHYNAUT said:
The Exodus Black
Click to expand...
Yeah, that statement seems pretty vague, and, again, gives us no information about those six dimensions other than that they exist.

WHYNAUT said:
Flower Game stuff
Click to expand...
I am uncertain about this, since it only works for Low 1-A under the assumption a few factors are at play, namely:

1) Do we know that the main setting in which Destiny takes place is the lowermost level (Assuming one exists for argument's sake, of course) of this recursion of worlds? If there isn't any explicit confirmation for this, then it may very well exist in some middle point between the "base" played by the Gardener and the Winnower and the lowermost simulation, in which case, only the levels above it would actually be considered Tier 1, while the infinite simulations below would be Tier 11.

If we say there is no lowermost level to begin with, then the main setting would be just placed at some undefined point in the recursion regardless, and have an unknown (But finite) number of layers above it, with infinite layers below it. In this case, it's not Low 1-A.

2) Do we know if there actually are infinite simulations within simulations in the first place? The text seems to imply that the Flower Game giving origin to simulations within simulations is more of a possibility than anything, and makes it pretty unclear if this downward hierarchy actually exists, or if it stretches infinitely if so. As I've explained above, Low 1-A only works if we assume that it is infinite and that the main setting is the lowermost level.

If we don't know whether or not there is any hierarchy, or if it is even infinite in the first place, then, no.
 

Gardener and Winnower — Lore Entry — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

— Once upon a time,* a gardener and a winnower lived** together in a garden.*** * It was once before a time, because time had not yet begun. ** We did not live. We existed as principles of ontological dynamics that emerged from mathematical structures, as bodiless and inevitable as the primes...
www.ishtar-collective.net www.ishtar-collective.net

Once upon a time,* a gardener and a winnower lived** together in a garden.***

* It was once before a time, because time had not yet begun.
** We did not live. We existed as principles of ontological dynamics that emerged from mathematical structures, as bodiless and inevitable as the primes.
*** It was the field of possibility that prefigured existence.

They existed, because they had to exist. They had no antecedent and no constituents, and there is no instrument of causality by which they could be portioned into components and assigned to some schematic of their origin. If you followed the umbilical of history in search of some ultimate atavistic embryo that became them, you would end your journey marooned here in this garden.

The relationship of the Winnower and the Gardener with reality is that they existed in a "field of possibility", a place before time or space existed. In turn, it was their clash within this field of possibility that caused the perturbations within the field that birthed Creation:

T = 0 — Lore Entry — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

— We wrestled in the garden, in the loam of possibility where nothing existed and everything might. A shadowed agony among the flowers. We trampled the petals beneath our feet. We stomped the fruit to pulp, and we ground the seeds into the dust. In the wet pop of grapes and the smear of...
www.ishtar-collective.net www.ishtar-collective.net

We wrestled in the garden, in the loam of possibility where nothing existed and everything might. A shadowed agony among the flowers. We trampled the petals beneath our feet. We stomped the fruit to pulp, and we ground the seeds into the dust.

In the wet pop of grapes and the smear of berries—in the perturbation of the field that was the garden before the first tick of time and the first point of space—were the detonations that made the universes. Each universe was pregnant with its own inflationary volumes and braided with ever-ramifying timelines. Each volume cooling and separating into domains of postsymmetric physics, all of which were incarnations of that great and all-dictating bipartite law that states only: exist, lest you fail to exist.

....

Our trampling feet made waves in the garden, which were the fluctuations around which the infant universes coalesced their first structures. The dilaton field yawned beneath existence. Symmetries snapped like glass. Like creases, flaws in space-time collected filaments of dark matter that inhaled and kindled the first galaxies of suns.

And still we grappled. Our rolling bodies pushed things out of the garden—worms and scurrying life from the fertile soil, wet things from the pools and the leaves. They came out into the madness of primordial space; they thrashed and became large.

And I won.

I won, because the gardener always stops to offer peace. And when they do, I always strike.

But by then, it didn't matter. The game was over. The garden had given birth to creation, the rules were in place, and there would never be a second chance. We played in the cosmos now. We played for everything.

And the patterns in the flowers, terrified by our contention, were no longer the inevitable victors of a game whose rules had suddenly changed, and they passed into the newborn cosmos to escape us.

--------------------------------------
 
Damn looking at what WHYNAUT said in the CRT it really seems like it was barren of evidence just a repetition of "stuff" rip
 
"* It was once before a time, because time had not yet begun.
** We did not live. We existed as principles of ontological dynamics that emerged from mathematical structures, as bodiless and inevitable as the primes.
*** It was the field of possibility that prefigured existence."
"In the wet pop of grapes and the smear of berries—in the perturbation of the field that was the garden before the first tick of time and the first point of space—were the detonations that made the universes. Each universe was pregnant with its own inflationary volumes and braided with ever-ramifying timelines. "
"The dilaton field yawned beneath existence. Symmetries snapped like glass"

Argument required
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
2) Do we know if there actually are infinite simulations within simulations in the first place? The text seems to imply that the Flower Game giving origin to simulations within simulations is more of a possibility than anything, and makes it pretty unclear if this downward hierarchy actually exists, or if it stretches infinitely if so. As I've explained above, Low 1-A only works if we assume that it is infinite and that the main setting is the lowermost level.
Click to expand...
The Flower Game is based on Conway's Game of Life: https://bitstorm.org/gameoflife/

The line about "simulations", on the other hand, is more applicable to the Vex, since even a regular Vex Goblin has shown the ability to nest a perfect simulation of itself and its surroundings up to 227 times.

Here is how the field of possibility is described in relation to the example of the Flower game:

And yet this game is nothing compared to the game played by the gardener and the winnower. It resembles that game as a seed does a flower—no, as a seed resembles the star that fed the flower and all the life that made it.

In their game, the gardener and the winnower discovered shapes of possibility. They foresaw bodies and civilizations, minds and cognitions, qualia and suffering. They learned the rules that governed which patterns would flourish in the game, and which would dwindle.

They learned those rules, because they were those rules.

They are able to observe all the possibilities of life and civilizations, and of the laws of physics that govern the patterns within the field of possibility. Turning themselves into "rules" within the game is what created the Light and Darkness powers. Before then, the Light and Darkness did not exist within the "field of possibility".
 
Catalyst75 said:
The Flower Game is based on Conway's Game of Life: https://bitstorm.org/gameoflife/

The line about "simulations", on the other hand, is more applicable to the Vex, since even a regular Vex Goblin has shown the ability to nest a perfect simulation of itself and its surroundings up to 227 times.

Here is how the field of possibility is described in relation to the example of the Flower game:

And yet this game is nothing compared to the game played by the gardener and the winnower. It resembles that game as a seed does a flower—no, as a seed resembles the star that fed the flower and all the life that made it.

In their game, the gardener and the winnower discovered shapes of possibility. They foresaw bodies and civilizations, minds and cognitions, qualia and suffering. They learned the rules that governed which patterns would flourish in the game, and which would dwindle.

They learned those rules, because they were those rules.

They are able to observe all the possibilities of life and civilizations, and of the laws of physics that govern the patterns within the field of possibility. Turning themselves into "rules" within the game is what created the Light and Darkness powers. Before then, the Light and Darkness did not exist within the "field of possibility".
Click to expand...
Because of the way that Reality Equalization works, we tier things relative to where the main part of the setting is.

Like Ultima said, it'd only be Low 1-A if the hierarchy is infinite and the main setting of the video game is at the very bottom of the hierarchy.

None of this technobabble you spouted here "It's inspired by the game of life! It's a game like a seed resembles the star that fed the flower! It discovered shapes of possibilities! They observe all the possibilities!" is in any way relevant to the hierarchy being infinite, and to the main setting of the game being at the very bottom of the hierarchy.
 
Why exactly would the main setting of the games being anywhere other than the top matter? There's still infinite iterations of the game above and below them regardless of where they are.
 
Because we tier things relative to where the main portion of the verse is.

It's why random powerless humans in the main SCP narrative aren't High 1-B.

And why verses that have fictional tv shows/books/etc. in them aren't tier 2/1.
 
...

You do realize that we don't tier shit based on some random perspective three or four layers down the line, right? You should know that because it's common sense to not do that. We tier using the perspective we normally have, which in SCP is from the Foundation's perspective, hence 11-C Snakebite and Co.
 
Yes, we tier stuff based on story prominence and stuff like that.

In the case of Destiny that'd be the main video game world.
 
Yes, I am aware of that. The thing is that it literally does not matter. Unless the main setting is explicitly at the very top of the flower game, which it isn't, there's an infinite number of iterations of the game above it.
 
How do you know that there's an infinite number of iterations of the game above the one that people generally play?
 
I don't think there is a infinite number above. All we know is that it can go ad-infinitum down.

Ultima's halfassed suggestion of possibly High 1-B makes sense to me tho.
 
Because that's how infinity works. You can't just divide infinity by some number and get less than infinity. You of all goddamn people should know that, Agnaa.

If your argument comes from there not explicitly being infinite repetitions of the game, that's also not a good argument because the text of the lore entry all but direction states that the games are nested infinitely, as every game can compute every other computer, including itself and other nested games.
 
What.

Let's say that The Flower Game stretches from -1 downwards ad infinitum. With The Gardener and the Winnower sitting at 0.

The Destiny game that people play could easily be at -1, or -2, or -3, or -4. We need an actual reason to think that it's sitting at -∞.

That is how infinity actually works man.
 
It could also just as easily be at -∞, or -10^30, or -21. Your example has no merit because the examples you are describing have effectively zero chance of being the case, as is the case with any other attempt to say exactly where the main setting is.
 
Okay so there's nothing solidly putting it at the bottom of the hierarchy, meaning it could very well be a finite number of layers below, even a small number of finite layers.

With that cleared up:

If your argument comes from there not explicitly being infinite repetitions of the game, that's also not a good argument because the text of the lore entry all but direction states that the games are nested infinitely, as every game can compute every other computer, including itself and other nested games.

Computing every other computer including itself might be infinite, I don't know enough about this sorta stuff to say for certain. I'll wait for other people to come back.
 
Hl3_or_bust said:
Why exactly would the main setting of the games being anywhere other than the top matter? There's still infinite iterations of the game above and below them regardless of where they are.
Click to expand...

Hl3_or_bust said:
Yes, I am aware of that. The thing is that it literally does not matter. Unless the main setting is explicitly at the very top of the flower game, which it isn't, there's an infinite number of iterations of the game above it.
Click to expand...

The game between the Gardener and the Winnower explicitly has a defined beginning, judging by the comparisions with the Flower Game, so what you are saying seems to be contradicted by the text itself. It's not like an infinite set can't have a first element, in any case.
 
There is yeah, but this whole argument is starting to get outside of my field of expertise. I feel like there's some wackass property of infinity that makes it basically guaranteed to be infinite games from the top no matter where it is, but I'm not aware of anything like that so meh.

Well, the important part of that is that the computers that it can simulate are copies of itself that are also computing itself, meaning that the iterations can continue to create deeper nestings.
 
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