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It’s time to revise some Destiny statistics again, mostly downgrading tiers. In exchange we have actual calcs and slightly more nuanced scaling. Just slightly.
Thanks for reading this. Apologies for this OP not being as well-structured as some of my previous ones.
Feel free to ask questions. I admittedly could have added more context, but didn’t know how to fit it in.
Agree: @AbaddonTheDisappointment, @Roachman40, @PsychoWarper, @RealGashMashWeedStasha, @Setsuna_tenma, @ExSENNA, @Mr.Cinos15, @Celestial_Pegasus, @Starter_Pack, @Rakih_Elyan, @LephyrTheRevanchist, @Mr._Bambu
Disagree:
ADDITION:
"In spirit of downgrades Oryx's (and by extension the Xol's and Akka's) 2-B rating should probably go too. The current justifications for this tier don't really point towards the destruction of any 2-B structures. If anything it seems to simply be a range feat.
He would simply up-scale (by a lot) from Atheon."
Agree: @LephyrTheRevanchist, @AbaddonTheDisappointment, @Roachman40, @PsychoWarper, @Rakih_Elyan, @Mr._Bambu, @Starter_Pack
First of all, 5-C and 4-B are going. After taking a closer look at the feats used to justify these ratings, they’re all done through hax, through preparation, through a superweapon no one scales to, over an unknown time period and/or through unknown methods.
The only feat that seems somewhat legitimate is Xivu Arath destroying a moon. However the circumstances of that feat are still vague and it can easily be argued to be an outlier.
Instead I think we should use the Ice Reaper Psion Flayers moving Phobos to scale the high and top tier characters within material space. Within this grimoire card there is some ambiguity about whether this is actually the doing of the Psion Flayers. However, it is worth noting that the Warlock orders’ intelligence and information gathering are very reliable. The fact that the Cabal have demonstrated no other means of using telekinetic/gravitational capabilities on this level also supports this notion. So that’s a Large Country Level+ and Class P Lifting Strength feat.
In Season of Dawn three Psion Flayers from the Red Legion, who should be on par with or superior to the Ice Reaper Psion Flayers, fuse with each other to form one super Psion Flayer, named Inotam. They do this specifically to obtain greater power after their plans had been continuously thwarted. So I think it’s safe to scale them to the full yield of the Phobos calculation, which would make the top tiers Continent Level with a number of them also scaling to Class P Lifting Strength.
The only feat that seems somewhat legitimate is Xivu Arath destroying a moon. However the circumstances of that feat are still vague and it can easily be argued to be an outlier.
Instead I think we should use the Ice Reaper Psion Flayers moving Phobos to scale the high and top tier characters within material space. Within this grimoire card there is some ambiguity about whether this is actually the doing of the Psion Flayers. However, it is worth noting that the Warlock orders’ intelligence and information gathering are very reliable. The fact that the Cabal have demonstrated no other means of using telekinetic/gravitational capabilities on this level also supports this notion. So that’s a Large Country Level+ and Class P Lifting Strength feat.
In Season of Dawn three Psion Flayers from the Red Legion, who should be on par with or superior to the Ice Reaper Psion Flayers, fuse with each other to form one super Psion Flayer, named Inotam. They do this specifically to obtain greater power after their plans had been continuously thwarted. So I think it’s safe to scale them to the full yield of the Phobos calculation, which would make the top tiers Continent Level with a number of them also scaling to Class P Lifting Strength.
Guardian Lifting Strength feats generally don’t come close to Class P, but the same goes for their destructive capabilities. I believe there’s grounds for scaling their Lifting Strength to Psion Flayer telekinesis.
- According to lore writer Seth Dickinson: a motivated Titan could lift impossible weight (which isn’t even referring to powerful Titans).
- Multiple no-name Warlocks could make small islands float with their own telekinesis.
- There’s a precedent for powerful paracausal entities being physically this strong in Oryx (who top tier Guardians scale to) physically moving parts of the Dreadnaught when building it.
- In D2 Psion Flayers use their telekinesis in combat to send Guardians flying across the map. But if you move against them you can reduce it to just being pushed back a little. And if you are performing a melee attack you can even negate the knockback entirely, while still taking damage. (It could be argued these are game mechanics however)
Currently there are only a few pages that scale to this in any way. It comes from Drake Tanks destroying large metal gates, which came out as 8-B. Some Guardian super abilities and weaponry scale to this along with most combat vehicles and bosses. Top tier Guardian base physicals might also scale; more on that later.
Top tier Guardians are at least 9-A, likely 8-B physically
Top tier Guardians are generally portrayed as superior to the average Guardian all around. I believe a likely 8-B is warranted for their low-end tiers.
Some evidence for this would be:
Top tier Guardians are at least 9-A, likely 8-B physically
Top tier Guardians are generally portrayed as superior to the average Guardian all around. I believe a likely 8-B is warranted for their low-end tiers.
Some evidence for this would be:
- There is a precedence in enemies of this caliber being tank level.
- The best among the Guardians are strong simply by holding the Light inside them.
- Young Saint-14 severs a Walker’s leg with a shield throw (as this is an ability it should scale above his physicals, but this was also before he became a top tier Guardian).
- Ticuu’s Divination, which is not notable for its firepower among the Guardian’s arsenal, can take down Tomb Ships.
4-B is gone, but the feats currently used to justify Low 2-C seem concrete enough to go without the “likely”. I’m primarily referring to the Court of Oryx pushing his Throne World inside out. Low 2-C divided by a finite number is still Low 2-C after all.
This mainly concerns Oryx. The threat he posed to the Vex Collective was only possible because the Vault of Glass is connected to all other parts of the Collective. He only could have corrupted the Collective through a chain reaction.
Besides, the Vex Collective isn’t just one structure or character one can scale to; it doesn’t have AP or Durability.
"If the Taken are here in the Vault, they are at the heart of the Vex collective mind. Imagine—the machine-planets of the Vex surging with Taken power. This must not be, Guardian." - Ikora
"The Guardian attacks Morphon and its many defenders. Eventually, the Hydra teleports to another location. Upon opening fire, the Guardian finds Morphon heavily shielded. A few Oracles are seen floating nearby. The Guardian takes them out, leaving the Ultra dazed and vulnerable. The Guardian continues attacking it until a detainment shield surrounds them. Quickly breaking it, they find the Hydra and continue fighting until it succumbs to its damage and dies. The Taken fog lifts, and the remaining forces retreat. The Labyrinth is finally silent.
Taking is also losing tier 1 scaling as that is based on outdated information. We now know the power to Take originally came from the Witness, not the Winnower. It is simply an expression of Darkness like Stasis and Strand, although a particularly powerful one.
Of course this means tier 1 Range is also going.
Besides, the Vex Collective isn’t just one structure or character one can scale to; it doesn’t have AP or Durability.
"If the Taken are here in the Vault, they are at the heart of the Vex collective mind. Imagine—the machine-planets of the Vex surging with Taken power. This must not be, Guardian." - Ikora
"The Guardian attacks Morphon and its many defenders. Eventually, the Hydra teleports to another location. Upon opening fire, the Guardian finds Morphon heavily shielded. A few Oracles are seen floating nearby. The Guardian takes them out, leaving the Ultra dazed and vulnerable. The Guardian continues attacking it until a detainment shield surrounds them. Quickly breaking it, they find the Hydra and continue fighting until it succumbs to its damage and dies. The Taken fog lifts, and the remaining forces retreat. The Labyrinth is finally silent.
- GHOST: I think... Yes. We've cleared the Vault of Taken. For the moment, anyway.
- PRAEDYTH: I think that's it. They're closing the door... I lived! Just remember, tell them! I li(ved!) (signal cuts out)"
Taking is also losing tier 1 scaling as that is based on outdated information. We now know the power to Take originally came from the Witness, not the Winnower. It is simply an expression of Darkness like Stasis and Strand, although a particularly powerful one.
Of course this means tier 1 Range is also going.
I'll summarily list the changes that would be made to the verse's tiering.
- Powerful Psion Flayers: High 6-B+ (2.7634224e+24 joules)
- Inotam: 6-A (3x as strong as a powerful Psion Flayer; 8.2902671e+24 joules)
- Most combat vehicles and bosses (whenever those get profiles): 8-B (8,9540433e+10 joules)
- Average Guardian: Varies, at least 9-A physically, Higher with abilities, up to 8-B with super abilities and weapons
- High tier Guardian (whenever those get profiles): Varies, at least 9-A, likely Higher physically, Higher with abilities, up to 8-B with super abilities and weapons, at most High 6-B+
Lifting Strength: current rating +"at most likely Class P"
- Top tier Guardians (such Ikora and Saint-14): Varies, at least 9-A, likely 8-B physically, Higher with abilities, up to 8-B with super abilities and weapons, at most 6-A
Lifting Strength: current rating +"at most likely Class P"
- Shin Malphur: Varies, at least 9-A, likely 8-B physically, Higher with abilities, up to 8-B with super abilities and weapons, at most High 6-B+, likely 6-A (The most renowned Gunslinger. Drifter is scared of him and doesn’t think the Guardian could outshoot Shin. Has survived outside of the Last City for centuries with just his one life. Has killed many rogue Guardians. Ultimately doesn’t have straightforward scaling for 6-A)
- Knight and Wizard: Varies, at least 9-A, up to High 6-B+
Knight Lifting Strength: current rating +"up to likely Class P"
- Knight and Wizard (in the Ascendant Plane): Varies, up to Low 2-C
- Malok: High 6-B+, likely 6-A (Rose to the rank of Hive Prince before being Taken and could have become the new Taken King after Oryx’s death. Not straight up 6-A because most other contenders were already dead)
Lifting Strength: likely Class P
- Riven: 6-A (Mostly for the same reasons she’s at her current tier)
Lifting Strength: likely Class P
- Crota: 6-A (At least on Inotam’s level, since he stomped an army of thousands of Guardians, including the likes of Ikora, to the point that they abandoned the Moon and made it a restriction zone) | Low 2-C, possibly 2-C
Lifting Strength: likely Class P
- The Daughters of Oryx: Low 2-C, possibly 2-C (Comparable to Crota)
- The Warpriest: Low 2-C (One of the most powerful members of the Court of Oryx)
- Nokris: High 6-B+, likely 6-A (Xol’s most powerful follower, a threat to Rasputin, a child of Oryx. Weaker than Crota however)
- Xol: 6-A (Stated by the Guardian’s Ghost to be the most powerful thing he has ever seen. This would include Crota, the entire Court of Oryx, and a weakened Oryx) | At least Low 2-C, likely 2-C
Lifting Strength: Class P
- Akka: At least Low 2-C, likely 2-C
- Oryx: At least 6-A (At his prime he’s more powerful than Xol), 4-B Environmental Destruction if the Dreadnaught's core is destroyed | At least Low 2-C, likely 2-C
Lifting Strength: Class P
- Gorgon Durability: Likely Low 2-C, possibly 2-C
- Hiraks: High 6-B+ (Is an Ascendant and was able to create a Throne World after gaining power from Cayde-6’s death)
Lifting Strength: likely Class P
- Any instance of tier 1 Range is removed
Thanks for reading this. Apologies for this OP not being as well-structured as some of my previous ones.
Feel free to ask questions. I admittedly could have added more context, but didn’t know how to fit it in.
Agree: @AbaddonTheDisappointment, @Roachman40, @PsychoWarper, @RealGashMashWeedStasha, @Setsuna_tenma, @ExSENNA, @Mr.Cinos15, @Celestial_Pegasus, @Starter_Pack, @Rakih_Elyan, @LephyrTheRevanchist, @Mr._Bambu
Disagree:
ADDITION:
"In spirit of downgrades Oryx's (and by extension the Xol's and Akka's) 2-B rating should probably go too. The current justifications for this tier don't really point towards the destruction of any 2-B structures. If anything it seems to simply be a range feat.
He would simply up-scale (by a lot) from Atheon."
Agree: @LephyrTheRevanchist, @AbaddonTheDisappointment, @Roachman40, @PsychoWarper, @Rakih_Elyan, @Mr._Bambu, @Starter_Pack
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