Destiny Tier 1 Revision

[Hl3_or_bust]

@Ultima_Reality

I never said there wasn't a bottom, you know, I was just saying that the main setting being anything but the very top of the flower game, outside of a predefined finite point that we don't have, would allow for an infinite amount of nested games between the main setting and the top to me knowledge.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think we do things probabilisticly like that. We wouldn't get the set of all possible positions and then select one by random chance. We'd look at the entire bound of possible positions and use the lower/upper bounds.

I don't think the computers simulating copies of itself that are also computing itself necessarily puts it at infinite. It could be infinite, but I think it may also be able to just stop.

I was just saying that the main setting being anything but the very top of the flower game would allow for an infinite amount of nested games between the main setting and the top to me knowledge.

Your knowledge would be wrong then :v

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I am aware, yeah, but going back down from infinity doesn't really work, which makes it seem like, in hindsight, every position is infinity, which is almost definitely wrong.

 

[Agnaa]

Well by default (unless we have statements of there being infinite below and infinite above) I'd think that either none or almost none of them would be infinitely away from the top.

There's an infinite amount of negative numbers but it's not like 99.999% of negative numbers are infinite in size.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I never said there wasn't a bottom, you know, I was just saying that the main setting being anything but the very top of the flower game, outside of a predefined finite point that we don't have, would allow for an infinite amount of nested games between the main setting and the top to me knowledge.

Yeah, I guess I worded it poorly, my bad. By "first element," I was referring to the base game which the Gardener and the Winnower play (i.e the topmost layer, not some hypothetical bottom to the hierarchy)

It all boils down to what Agnaa says, anyway. A set being infinite doesn't imply that any of its elements have to be infinitely large or infinitely distant from the starting point, assuming there is one. For instance, all whole numbers are a finite distance away from 1, even though there are infinitely-many of them. So you'd need some good evidence that there are infinite layers between the main setting and the top of the hierarchy.

 

[Catalyst75]

None of this technobabble you spouted here "It's inspired by the game of life! It's a game like a seed resembles the star that fed the flower! It discovered shapes of possibilities! They observe all the possibilities!" is in any way relevant to the hierarchy being infinite, and to the main setting of the game being at the very bottom of the hierarchy.

Why do you think I said this:

Here is how the field of possibility is described in relation to the example of the Flower game:

Here's the lore entry:

The Flower Game — Lore Entry — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

— These are the rules of a game. Let it be played upon an infinite two-dimensional grid of flowers. Rule One. A living flower with less than two living neighbors is cut off. It dies. Rule Two. A living flower with two or three living neighbors is connected. It lives. Rule Three. A living flower...

www.ishtar-collective.net

The Flower Game is explained first by the Darkness for the sake of being compared to the game the Gardener and Winnower actually played in the Field of Possibility. The Flower Game described first in the entry is not a literal representation of what the Gardener and Winnower did.

The game as described:

These are the rules of a game. Let it be played upon an infinite two-dimensional grid of flowers.

Rule One. A living flower with less than two living neighbors is cut off. It dies.

Rule Two. A living flower with two or three living neighbors is connected. It lives.

Rule Three. A living flower with more than three living neighbors is starved and overcrowded. It dies.

Rule Four. A dead flower with exactly three living neighbors is reborn. It springs back to life.

The only play permitted in the game is the arrangement of the initial flowers.

They are the exact same rules as George Conway's Game of Life, save for the wording:

1. Any live cell with fewer than two live neighbours dies, as if by underpopulation.
2. Any live cell with two or three live neighbours lives on to the next generation.
3. Any live cell with more than three live neighbours dies, as if by overpopulation.
4. Any dead cell with exactly three live neighbours becomes a live cell, as if by reproduction.

The lore entry doesn't imply an infinite hierarchy with the main setting of the game at the bottom of the hierarchy. You have the Field of Possibility, a place beyond space and time where all possibilities for the universes could be observed by the Winnower and Gardener. When they fought, the perturbations/excitations they caused within the field created the setting; created the universes of Destiny and their myriad timelines.

As a result, I do not believe there's an "infinite hierarchy" implied by this entry.

The thing closest resembling the "nested copies of the flower game" would be Vex simulations. As I already stated, a single Vex Goblin could create 227 nested simulations within its mind. The Infinite Forest, in turn, is a machine capable of simulating trillions of realities.

 

[Agnaa]

Why would the Gardener/Winnower be High 1-B or Low 1-A then? And why'd you give the Flower Game a tier in the first place?

 

[Catalyst75]

Why would the Gardener/Winnower be High 1-B or Low 1-A then? And why'd you give the Flower Game a tier in the first place?

I didn't. The two-dimensional grid is how Conway's Game of Life, works. It has nothing to do with spatial dimensions.

 

[Agnaa]

Oh sorry, Whynaut put it at High 1-B. Quoting from the OP:

The Flower Game is at least High 1-B.

 

[WHYNAUT]

There's been too many posts for me to respond to everything. I'd like to just say that I understand and agree with arguments for the Flower Game not being a High 1-B hierarchy as we do, in fact, not know where the main setting is in this hierarchy. I also agree with Ultima's suggestion of keeping the Pyramidion at a "Possibly High 1-B". However this would still make the Gardener and the Winnower possibly Low 1-A for transcending the Vex Collective and by extension the Pyramidion.

 

[Tago238]

I agree with this.

 

[WHYNAUT]

Okay so that would mean the Vex Collective would be rated as such: "At least 2-A, Likely Low 1-C, Possibly High 1-B". Oryx' eventual AP would scale to this. And the Gardener and the Winnower will be rated like this: "At least Low 1-C, Possibly Low 1-A", when they get their profiles.

Agree: Ultima, Crimson, Tago, WHYNAUT, Hl3, Cinos, Catalyst, Wok

Disagree: -

Does anyone else have any more input? Are there more people I need to list as "Agree" or "Disagree"?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

That seems to be the best we're getting, so I agree

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

If it's legit, then I also agree with the new proposals.

 

[Catalyst75]

I agree with the proposals.

 

[Wokistan]

Stuff seems fine, since it is true that we don't know of where the setting that has everything that's not the Darkness and Light sits in that whole recursive Vex creation thing.

"At least 2-A, Likely Low 1-C, Possibly High 1-B" is such a clunky tier lol but I guess that's just how the Vex (and Oryx) are.

 

[WHYNAUT]

Well given all the support, and lack of opposition, I think it's safe to say this is the conclusion of this crt. I'll ask someone to unlock Oryx' page later today.

 

[Antvasima]

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