Demon King Daimao downgrade ig

[Livinmeme]

How in the world a traduction is so bad or without any context, that made the characters vary from solar system to bordeline boundless???

and i tougth that SAO Downgrade was exagerated

 

[AKUTO123]

"4th dimension"​

There is a claim that the "virtual dimension" is "infinitely" transcended over three spatial ones because it's called "4th dimensional space" and the proof used for that is this quote:

The virtual alternate dimension was commonly referred to as a 4th dimensional space. Researchers’ understanding of it was as follows: “we don’t know why, but there is an infinitely vast space adjacent to our dimension.” It was thought to be dangerous to remain within it, so it was usually used to temporarily transfer oneself or objects or to trap intruders as a defensive panic room.

-Act 7, Prologue, fan translation.

First of all, it's worth to note that the reason it's called "4th dimensional space" is because it was a complex enough topic of research and not because it's in some way infinitely transcended over the other three dimensions of space.

This is a very reasonable and logical interpretation from the first sentence of the above quote, but it's also worth to note the other translation explicitly mentions what I said at the start of the above paragraph:

The research was on “virtual space.”Virtual phase space was a complex enough topic that most people just called it 4D space, and even scientists knew little more than “We don’t know why, but there’s an infinitely vast dimension right next to us.

-Act 7, Prologue, offical translation.

This should already be enough evidence that this was just a classic example of twisting context to exaggerate something, but why not add more:

This "virtual alternate dimension" is almost always referring to either a world similar to a VR-game:

“M-my apologies. I am only saying this for your safety. One week is the longest anyone has been able to remain within the virtual alternate dimension. It is being controlled this time, so you will likely be safe even if you stay longer than that. However, no food is being brought in from outside. One week in-game is equivalent to a dozen or so hours in reality. Your physical bodies will not starve or die of thirst in that time.”
“…I see.”
“Second, even if you die in this world, you will simply return to the real world. In other words, you can return by dying.”
Click to expand...

-Act 7, chapter 2.

“I believe the condition to leave the virtual alternate dimension is to complete the planned events here.”
The girl was Fujiko. Yoshie realized she was the same one who had made the perceptive realization earlier.
“Yes. Completing the game will likely allow us to leave. I will now give a simple explanation of the game’s rules. Your roles here have been determined by your personalities. While here, you will fight, obtain victory, gain experience, and level up. As this is an experiment into the effectiveness of using the virtual alternate dimension, the combat and magic skills you gain here will remain with you when you return to the real world. Your brain will have learned the behavior patterns. It is the same as never forgetting how to ride a bike once you learn how.”
Click to expand...

-Act 7, chapter 2.

“We have been given the roles that suit us best in this game world and can leave once the game has been completed. It is the same as before.”

-Act 7, chapter 2.

When Morlock shrank, his body did not actually reduce in size. He would send most of his body into a virtual alternate dimension and reform his body with mana. However, Akuto was using that against him.
“Gyaaaaah!”
His scream trailed on and on as his body grew smaller and smaller.
Akuto sealed Morlock in the virtual alternate dimension and set his size at no bigger than a few dozen mana particles.
Click to expand...

-Act 12, chapter 1.

Lily had learned the plan involved obtaining Keena’s cells and using the mana waves they produced to seal Akuto in the virtual alternate dimension. She had hurriedly held a health examination and laid the trap. As planned, 2V had arrived to obtain Keena’s blood. Lily had not known what 2V would look like, but she had only needed to pursue the person who carried out Keena’s blood.
Click to expand...

-Act 7, chapter 1.

The plan is to seal Sai Akuto in the virtual alternate dimension. Most likely, he will either be left there with no influence on the outside world or they will kill him inside.”

-Act 7, chapter 2.

or as a pocket dimension, that's dependent on the energy from the finitely sized universe:

The bag contained a virtual alternate dimension. It was dependent on the energy on the surface, so it was working now and would not once the surface was destroyed. That would likely be the final tool Korone would produce.

-Act 12, chapter 5.

Welp, so much for being infinite as well as "transcendent" over the normal three dimensions of space.


I don't understand the purpose of the post here. You have emphasized that the virtual alternate dimension is 4D and is infinite. Calling virtual reality does not encourage any obstacle to being neither 4 dimensional nor infinite.

Next, people use this quote to claim Afterlife is infinite and that Akuto can create an infinite surface:

To keep the story more flat, he prepared an infinite surface, chairs, a table, drinks, and a few fruits. Even that was enough to create a story, but it would keep the story to a minimum.

-Act 13, chapter 4

Unfortunately, the next quote is an answer to multiple of these false claims - the afterlife being transcended over other universes and the afterlife being infinite as well as Akuto creating an "infinite surface":

He moved his left arm.“And what does it mean?” she asked.“If the world we lived in was fictional, then the afterlife is also fictional. I started to think about what differentiated the two worlds and the answer I found was the presence or absence of an external wall,” he explained. “The world of the living had an external wall, but this world does not. No matter which three-dimensional direction you move in, you will return to your starting point. You can continue forever, but the space is finite.”“I understand the concept, but what does it mean?”

I can't imagine the possibility that the person making this quote has read the series. The order of events is not given wrong. The finite 3D wall expression is given to us when Akuto afterlife first arrives and starts to explore afterlife. the success of creating an infinite surface appears after that. If I put it in the simplest way for people to understand, I have a land of 10 km and I tell everyone this, then I expand this land and make a land of 100 km. The relationship between 3-dimensional finite space and infinite space is as I gave above. This article is written as if it were written like this: "Here it is written as finite, I have completely disproved the expression that has nothing to do with the expression here"

Baseline layer​

The claims for this are that Akuto can create "infinite" possibilities from a quote that says he will create every logically possible universe and therefore there exist infinitely many parallel worlds (some people also claim that each world has an infinite hierarchy by themselves from this):

For example, the two statements “an elephant flew through the sky” and “Hitler visited Paris in the year 2000 AD” were both impossible in reality, but they worked in writing. If elephants were flying creatures and if Hitler had not died, they could occur even in reality. They were true in a world that could have been. In that case, it became clear that near infinite possibilities were contained within the world. They could even be seen as existing as infinite parallel worlds.
Click to expand...

-Act 13, chapter 3.

You will create all of those logically possible worlds,” said Yoshie as if giving an order. “All of them?” he asked back in astonishment. “What remains after that will be your own will. You will see all worlds and choose for yourself.” “I suppose I should search for the possibility of saving the world in this world where I can do anything. If I don’t, we may never escape this place.” “In that case, I think you should start right away.” She produced a mana screen and displayed a model of history. “The data you can view is a copy of that from the world just before it was destroyed, but you can use that to calculate back and construct all possibilities.” “But I feel like the worlds I would create would fairly ridiculous,” he said. “That’s fine,” she replied. “Even the ridiculous worlds are a possibility.” Akuto then decided to bring out those possibilities himself.

-Act 13, chapter 2.

Worth to note the bolded part in the first quote - "near infinite" doesn't mean anything. You are either finite or infinite, you can't simply by "near" or "close" to infinity. One of the many times author butchers the meaning of the word infinite.

There's also a part in the 2nd quote that pretty much debunks everything about this notion of Akuto creating infinite universes, but I'll get to that later.

First, to provide context for this, both the space and the characters in each story are finite, but there exist infinite combinations:

Did you actually read those scans you posted? Let me explain to you again some of the things written in your scan. "all possible possibilities"? "yes, everything that can be defined logically that can exist, everything is possible, such as elephants flying, hitler being french." While explaining the concept of probability, yoshie does not present us the universe as the world, he says that there is everything that can be defined that one can think of. yoshie just mean world, while we emphatically use terms like "everything is possible," all things, if it only includes worlds? Also, I think you have a very big mistake. The fact that space is finite does not constitute an obstacle for higher dimensions. The observable universe is finite but low 2C as a space-time continuum. A universe with a diameter of 98 billion light years that is 5D would be 5D. Whether the space is finite or infinite does not affect the size of the space, especially a dimensional hierarchy that includes fictional reality relations does not mean anything.
Also, let me show you a place from your quote about what infinite possibilities are: "this is actually releasing the walls of the worlds that exist within Akuto" infinite possibilities and everything in it is inside Akuto.
I'm writing this from a very bad phone. unfortunately and he deleted the whole paragraph i just wrote and everything i wrote is gone...
I will continue tomorrow, but the person who wrote this article either has never read the series, randomly collected all the expressions that say he sees not infinite, or he is malicious because that 3D wall and finite world he threw chronologically before the infinite surface and extremely out of context. I will continue tomorrow, have a good day everyone

 

[Antvasima]

I think that DontTalk made very good arguments to prove his points above.

It might be a good idea to incorporate all of your relevant information into an official wiki explanation page to avoid these types of time-wasting discussions in the future.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think that DontTalk made very good arguments to prove his points above.

It might be a good idea to incorporate all of your relevant information into an official wiki explanation page to avoid these types of time-wasting discussions in the future.

Most of what he said is already in the current blog iirc.

However his arguments aren't really the winning ones right now, with most just being contradicted by either the raw or context. Last time already had iffy stuff (which made Ionliosite change his opinion despite previously agreeing with DontalkDT for example), but this thread is really just giving a full analysis of why they were iffy.

Don't see how it is a waste of time.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I haven't had the time to read the entirety of this thread, but just as a general clarification, we do not accept author Twitter statements that are not also stated in the works themselves. They should only be used as clarifications as far as I am aware.

@Ionliosite @Lawiegg @catzlaflame

Would you also be willing to help out here please.?

 

[Ningenron]

Well, I didn't use them first. And why would they not be allowed when they are consistent with the source material and doesn't contradict anything?

 

[Antvasima]

Because we have rules against leading direct fan questions via social media to authors that give only brief or even flippant answers in response. They can be used as supporting evidence for things explicitly shown in the in-universe works themselves, but not much else.

I am too tired and overworked right now to check for and quote the exact wording, but somebody else can check through our rules pages for this purpose if you wish to help out.

 

[Livinmeme]

Because we have rules against leading direct fan questions via social media to authors that give only brief or even flippant answers in response. They can be used as supporting evidence for things explicitly shown in the in-universe works themselves, but not much else.

I am too tired and overworked right now to check for and quote the exact wording, but somebody else can check through our rules pages for this purpose if you wish to help out.

I mean it was just clarifying vague things

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

 

[Catzlaflame]

Well, I haven't had the time to read the entirety of this thread, but just as a general clarification, we do not accept author Twitter statements that are not also stated in the works themselves. They should only be used as clarifications as far as I am aware.

I brought up the author statement cus it was relevant to what we were talking about at that moment and what darksmash was saying was that the r>f interpretation is possible but it would be the absolute highest interpretation, the author statement was only supporting evidence not a point that contradicted the entire series or anythin

@catzlaflame
Would you also be willing to help out here please.?

I addressed the op and currently I am in agreement with nuking high-1A but neutral on anything below high-1B/1-A

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Accelerate420]

Because we have rules against leading direct fan questions via social media to authors that give only brief or even flippant answers in response. They can be used as supporting evidence for things explicitly shown in the in-universe works themselves, but not much else.

I am too tired and overworked right now to check for and quote the exact wording, but somebody else can check through our rules pages for this purpose if you wish to help out.

I wonder how that worked out for you guys with the Demonbane verse.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I wonder how that worked out for you guys with the Demonbane verse.

And guess what is deleted, hmm?

 

[Delta333]

Demonbane author who said that he's not sure about his opinion reagarding his own series

 

[Naito-desu]

Ant, not to be overly critical, but I notice you're in such a hurry to shut down downgrade CRTs, which I guess works for CRTs with no real basis but why do I feel like you're always in a hurry to shut down ones that are making genuinely stronger arguments as well? I saw this kind of attitude with the Umineko downgrade thread as well, like any big CRT is going to be a waste of your time regardless?

I understand if you are tired and overworked, but I just hope it isn't affecting how you come off in certain threads.

 

[Antvasima]

I did not say anything about shutting down this thread, just that I have strong trust in DontTalk's sense of judgement.

As for the Umineko thread, that was a different situation. As I have repeatedly explained earlier, I had to wait for over 5 years for the verse to be properly thoroughly revised, and after the downgrade revision thread starter left this community, I did not want our pages for the series to suffer from a comparative extreme rush job that would make them far more unreliable. Also, the thread is open again after the thread starter returned to this community.

 

[Naito-desu]

Alright, understood. Thank you for the clarification

 

[AKUTO123]

Well, I haven't had the time to read the entirety of this thread, but just as a general clarification, we do not accept author Twitter

I think that DontTalk made very good arguments to prove his points above.

It might be a good idea to incorporate all of your relevant information into an official wiki explanation page to avoid these types of time-wasting discussions in the future.

that are not also stated in the works themselves. They should only be used as clarifications as far as I am aware.

@Ionliosite @Lawiegg @catzlaflame

Would you also be willing to help out here please.?

I will continue to present my arguments and points throughout the week, but I would like the discussion to continue until DT writes its final words. I think Dont Talk's information and comments are gold for the subject.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, DontTalk is highly knowledgeable and rational.

 

[Darksmash]

I suppose this thread should at the very least be able to get rid of the High 1-A stuff, since the arguments for that are just bad.

As for the law of identity, If possible can someone provide the raws of the quotes that talk about the dream hierarchy and mentions the law of identity?

I read two translations for it and both of them have some inconsistency, and looking back the quotes themselves also seem a bit weird around those parts.

 

[Darksmash]

Also, can I ask why TLOI is considered 1-A not High 1-B?

Because the quotes that mention the dream hierarchy talk in detail about how TLOI is the first being in existence who would have started the dream hierarchy, not that it is something Inaccessibly above all R>F layers.

 

[Saiyan40009]

I can ask why we take into account hierarchy dreams if it was only a theory of the characters and something merely hypothetical the truth until now darksmash has denied arguments against the reduction

 

[Sus]

I'm still in favour of the downgrade, maybe not to the point where it becomes tier 4, maybe high 1B

 

[Darksmash]

Well that would still only happen under the assumption the "layers" are transcendent, which is something we never actually see happen in the verse in practice. But regardless, I believe anything above High 1-B is absolutely unwarranted. The solar system stuff can go anywhere (which I already said in the beginning of the thread), but we shouldn't let a controversial tier proposal invalidate downgrades that should be 100% guaranteed

Law of identity's position is a bit confusing to me due to weird and conflicting translations, so I will wait for the raws

 

[Sus]

Well that would still only happen under the assumption the "layers" are transcendent, which is something we never actually see happen in the verse in practice. But regardless, I believe anything above High 1-B is absolutely unwarranted. The solar system stuff can go anywhere (which I already said in the beginning of the thread), but we shouldn't let a controversial tier proposal invalidate downgrades that should be 100% guaranteed

Law of identity's position is a bit confusing to me due to weird and conflicting translations, so I will wait for the raws

I totally agree

 

[Tarang123]

It's funny how the new attempt of downgrading a strong Japanese series verse is now by copying shit in comicvine. Is this a collaboration or sumshit, lmfao.

Yeah…but we all love 4B Akuto

 

[Livinmeme]

What if we downgrade everything to 4-B so we can do goku vs everything?

 

[Tarang123]

What if we downgrade everything to 4-B so we can do goku vs everything?

He’d basically solo tbh

 

[San-Kakarot]

From what I have read the verse seems to be explicit 4-B.

 

[Urshani]

How many agrees do we have

 

[Livinmeme]

Whoever downgrades WOD to 2-A is based..let see if this work

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Expectation: Demon King Daimo is OP and 1-A and blah blah blah

Reality:

Sai: Wait i'm solar system level and so is my girlfriend goddess.


Yogiri, battler, TOAA, and more: Slasher smiles



anyway i'm joining the agree train.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

also reinhard slasher smiles too and so does 3812.



so who would win


A guy with the power of plot vs one Shuradou boi

 

[Teezar]

This is derailing tbh.

 

[Sus]

also reinhard slasher smiles too and so does 3812.



so who would win


A guy with the power of plot vs one Shuradou boi

Please stop doing this

 

[PairusDragonoid]

I disagree with everything, there is a lack of more context and understanding about how the work works (especially in the last volume) where all the shit was released, taking what another user from another page says is bad, oneself must bring the feats (including capture if it is in physical or digital) of said feats, this is more a "cherry picking" hardcore to me only to dowplay things very conveniently ignoring others. I agree with everything DontTalkDT has said.

Edit: in the case of conflicting translation, then:

• See the RAW.
• Take a good translator/s (not the shit of MT no matter what)
• Translating acordiing to the context of the scene/arc and on the rare occasion that something in the future arc is rewritten or changed then analyze it with what was previously show (and i mean EVERITHING, not only picking one scene/quote for selective wank/downplay)
• comparing with the other translation to see if they match or not.

Then you can make a more accurate CTR and what really is and what is not, in order to have more accurate, consistent and legitimate profiles...., in the case this is imposible (for what ever reason) then i prefer to nuke ALL, or you want another trash Demonbane with no real accurate profiles and a mess with shit translation, out of context scenes/power and fanfic characters?

 

[Tarang123]

I disagree with everything, there is a lack of more context and understanding about how the work works (especially in the last volume) where all the shit was released, taking what another user from another page says is bad, oneself must bring the feats (including capture if it is in physical or digital) of said feats, this is more a "cherry picking" hardcore to me only to dowplay things very conveniently ignoring others. I agree with everything DontTalkDT has said.

Idk, the OP literally points out how out-of-context some things are. And specifically how weird the contradictions are, but alr suit yourself.

 

[Delta333]

I disagree with everything, there is a lack of more context and understanding about how the work works (especially in the last volume) where all the shit was released, taking what another user from another page says is bad, oneself must bring the feats (including capture if it is in physical or digital) of said feats, this is more a "cherry picking" hardcore to me only to dowplay things very conveniently ignoring others. I agree with everything DontTalkDT has said.

You can just say that you agree with DT instead of writing that long and redundant text

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

You can just say that you agree with DT instead of writing that long and redundant text

You can just read their text instead of giving a shitty advice such as that.

 

[Delta333]

You can just read their text instead of giving a shitty advice such as that.

?