Demon King Daimao downgrade ig

[Urshani]

I agree with the virtual alternate dimension not being a higher dimension, but disagree with it not being infinite.
specifically the op argues that since the VAD is powered by the “real world” which is FINITE that the finite world cannot supply the INFINITE one but that’s not really true. Just because something is finite doesn’t mean it cannot have infinite energy. For example the formless power has infinite energy. yet it exists in the finite world. now yes the op did address the formless power but the argument is literally the definition of red herring:
The op’s singular contention is and I quote “But the only thing it showed were meteor tier feats”
Hes basically saying because the formless power has only shown meteor level feats it can’t have infinite power, yea big time disagree on this.

---

Regarding akuto creating infinite possibilities I’m neutral leaning towards agreeing with the op. This has been discussed a lot before but I haven’t seen any solid contention to QuasiYuri ‘s point about akuto stopping the creation of stories.

“At that point、Akuto ended the story creation。He had decided it was all meaningless”

---

with the “possibility stories” containing high-1B constructs debunk, I agree, the reasoning was already very very shaky, to begin with. This was essentially the last straw.

what tier do you accept then

 

[Darksmash]

The op EXPICITLY states that the universe(solar system) is the peak limit to the “real world”, therefore outside of the universe can only refer to things literally outside the real world. Which only leaves the afterlife or the layers above it, as again the real world caps out at the universe,
furthermore in the context of the literal exact same scene “outside of the universe” is literally verbatim portrayed to be the afterlife:

I don't get this counter. The OP also elaborates how things outside the solar system are equivalent to things outside the universe, so I assume the intention was of arguing that going beyond the solar system won't just make the solar system fictional.

“As it had said, "If someone could peer into the afterlife and return from there、they could prove this world is fictional”

This is just another example of fiction being used metaphorically.

The reason they say that afterlife's existence proves that the world is "fictional" is quite clearly stated:

“If only humans can observe the world, then when humans are gone, the world will cease to exist. But if the same person that died can come back to life, that means that someone is controlling this world. Which means it isn’t real,” Yoshie said, and then rubbed her temples like she had a headache.

Afterlife's existence means death inside the world isn't real, and characters coming back implies someone is controlling it from outside, meaning the world isn't real but has an illusory meaning. Never once is it stated that Afterlife's existence proves the world is fictional because afterlife sees the world as fiction.

They even directly say that death(literally just a concept) inside that world is fictional:

“If he doesn’t mean destruction in the true sense, then it makes the question I had more plausible... My question, you see, is about the fictional nature of death in this world.” From her expression, Yuko could tell that this wasn’t just one of her usual fancy speeches. There was a deeper meaning. If she was bringing the subject up now, no matter how strange it may seem, it must have had something to do with what they were discussing. “The fictional... nature of death? Do you mean death isn’t real?” Yuko asked. Yoshie nodded.

“W-What...? So death isn’t real, and other worlds exist? I don’t understand at all.” Yoshie put her finger on her chin in thought, and then tried framing it another way. “I’m talking about the afterlife. What if the things we call heaven and hell are real? And then the world we live in now is a lie. Maybe it doesn’t matter if you live or die. The technology to travel through time, as well as the existence of gods from the outer universe hint at something... What if all life in this world was fictional? That would explain everything.’ “B-But we’re living! We’re suffering! Right now!” Yuko shouted. Yoshie nodded silently. “We’re each independent. We each have our own thoughts. So the world exists. But we can’t deny the possibility that the world is fictional. Unless we face death, as death...”

It is quite clear that the factor that is proving the worlds are "fictional" is death being illusory, not afterlife being a higher layer. And the logical progression being that coming back from death proves someone is controlling the universe.

“Many people have wondered if the world was fictional. For example, you may know that you exist, but perhaps the rest of the world is just an illusion. But there’s a clear response to that argument. The existence of other people. If you exist, then you must admit the existence of other people who think, and exist, as well. If you accept the death of others as equivalent to your own death, then you know that even if someone dies, the world remains.”

How does that quote prove this? It’s just Hiroshi recalling the different aspects of the cosmology he doesn’t say the afterlife is an alternate dimension he says that the verse (so far to his knowledge) consists of dimensions an afterlife, virtual dimensions, etc.

Because they are being treated as seperate worlds? If earth was fictional to afterlife it would have been part of it, not a seperate world. Not to mention, there isn't even actually a single statement calling afterlife transcendent even once. Death proving the world's fictionality has different context as shown above.

What makes you say that? For example why would the statement about the dreams within dreams be metaphorical.

Controlling the world from outside the solar system=seeing it as fiction apparently, so guess it would be a hierarchy of solar systems. Anyway, that dream hierarchy was literally a hypothetical one off thing that was never mentioned again in the next volume and not even ascertained whether it is even part of the Cosmology or not.

cus Hiroshi never was fictional to akuto though

Yet Akuto can create a low density story with him as a character and he can complete Akuto's story from inside this story.

 

[Catzlaflame]

@Darksmash I’ll respond tmr morning I got to go to sleep

 

[Metalballrun]

Just a suggestion: it would probably be nicer if the statements are sourced, from what volume and chapter they came from. So that people can double-check it directly from the sauce material if they wanna.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Wait is this Quote Valid?? It come from The Computer Gods's profile

Spoiler

The gods have a will of their own, but they do not possess a body.
That is why they do not possess thought processes centered on a body. They are a contradictory existence that thinks despite having no true form to think with. It is true they have computer circuits. However, no one knows how many circuits are needed before thought is born. All we know is that a will is born when enough circuits are brought together. You can think of it as similar to how we do not know where one’s will is located in the human brain. Their non-body focused thought processes leave them with no distinction between themselves and the outside world, and so they are able to think in terms of the infinite. I do not mean the mathematical concept of infinity. I mean an infinite degree of infinites. And this means they can arrive at the infinite past for living creatures. The bodiless gods can arrive at the thought processes of single-celled life forms. That is the same as the birth of life and the birth of thought. And thoughts themselves create a universe. Not a scientifically observable universe, mind you. There is a theory saying that this world could have been created five minutes ago and we can never prove otherwise if our memories are false. However, that theory only holds when one has a physical body. Bodiless thoughts invalidate that theory. In other words, the universe exists and time is absolutely irreversible.

 

[AKUTO123]

Sure

@DontTalkDT @Ionliosite @Lawiegg @AKUTO123 @catzlaflame

I have some work to do that I will reply to this in 1 or 2 days

 

[PhantomØ4]

There’s a bunch of people who just vote to agree for the sake of downgrading widely known tier 1 verses and some even get a bit annoying at how little they try to hide their bias.

Same thing happened with A Wild Last Boss Appeared when people started complaining about how non-sensical the power elevation became when the author didn’t play by infinity rules.

Anyways, I think almost everyone who jumped right on to support the downgrade before any counter argument could be made did it say too early to count.

 

[Tarang123]

There’s a bunch of people who just vote to agree for the sake of downgrading widely known tier 1 verses and some even get a bit annoying at how little they try to hide their bias.

Same thing happened with A Wild Last Boss Appeared when people started complaining about how non-sensical the power elevation became when the author didn’t play by infinity rules.

Anyways, I think almost everyone who jumped right on to support the downgrade before any counter argument could be made did it say too early to count.

I do think that's somewhat valid, but I don't think everyone who agreed with it before counter arguments were made should have their votes immediately taken out. In fact, with such a big downgrade, I don't think the number of votes should matter other than for show. It should be a discussion to get them to accurate tiering.

 

[DemonKingAkuto]

I do think that's somewhat valid, but I don't think everyone who agreed with it before counter arguments were made should have their votes immediately taken out. In fact, with such a big downgrade, I don't think the number of votes should matter other than for show. It should be a discussion to get them to accurate tiering.

Yeah similar to Umineko, it's better to discuss rather to just follow how many people agree or disagree.

 

[PhantomØ4]

I’m aware. I meant count in the sense of be taken seriously. “Some” people are neither informed nor waited for more input to agree other than for their clear bias.

 

[Dereck03]

They didn't even read the OP, just cuz their bias they agreed with it

 

[Teezar]

There’s a bunch of people who just vote to agree for the sake of downgrading widely known tier 1 verses and some even get a bit annoying at how little they try to hide their bias.

Same thing happened with A Wild Last Boss Appeared when people started complaining about how non-sensical the power elevation became when the author didn’t play by infinity rules.

Anyways, I think almost everyone who jumped right on to support the downgrade before any counter argument could be made did it say too early to count.

I absolutely agree.

 

[Ningenron]

I agree with the virtual alternate dimension not being a higher dimension, but disagree with it not being infinite.
specifically the op argues that since the VAD is powered by the “real world” which is FINITE that the finite world cannot supply the INFINITE one but that’s not really true. Just because something is finite doesn’t mean it cannot have infinite energy. For example the formless power has infinite energy. yet it exists in the finite world. now yes the op did address the formless power but the argument is literally the definition of red herring:
The op’s singular contention is and I quote “But the only thing it showed were meteor tier feats”
Hes basically saying because the formless power has only shown meteor level feats it can’t have infinite power, yea big time disagree on this.

The meteor/Formless power didn't even fully surface wipe the earth....

Due to the meteor, ocean had remained only on a portion of the earth and everything else was covered in brown clumps of rubble.

Regarding akuto creating infinite possibilities I’m neutral leaning towards agreeing with the op. This has been discussed a lot before but I haven’t seen any solid contention to QuasiYuri ‘s point about akuto stopping the creation of stories.

“At that point、Akuto ended the story creation。He had decided it was all meaningless”

---

with the “possibility stories” containing high-1B constructs debunk, I agree, the reasoning was already very very shaky, to begin with. This was essentially the last straw.

Fair

 

[Pepsiman25th]

why must all the og tier 1s be nuked by the downgrade wave

 

[QuasiYuri]

The OP does seem to make more sense than what we currently have.

 

[Pepsiman25th]

The OP does seem to make more sense than what we currently have.

if it gets accepted, its guy crimson vs law of identity

 

[Ningenron]

Wait is this Quote Valid?? It come from The Computer Gods's profile

Spoiler

The gods have a will of their own, but they do not possess a body.
That is why they do not possess thought processes centered on a body. They are a contradictory existence that thinks despite having no true form to think with. It is true they have computer circuits. However, no one knows how many circuits are needed before thought is born. All we know is that a will is born when enough circuits are brought together. You can think of it as similar to how we do not know where one’s will is located in the human brain. Their non-body focused thought processes leave them with no distinction between themselves and the outside world, and so they are able to think in terms of the infinite. I do not mean the mathematical concept of infinity. I mean an infinite degree of infinites. And this means they can arrive at the infinite past for living creatures. The bodiless gods can arrive at the thought processes of single-celled life forms. That is the same as the birth of life and the birth of thought. And thoughts themselves create a universe. Not a scientifically observable universe, mind you. There is a theory saying that this world could have been created five minutes ago and we can never prove otherwise if our memories are false. However, that theory only holds when one has a physical body. Bodiless thoughts invalidate that theory. In other words, the universe exists and time is absolutely irreversible.

Yea, it's from Act 5, chapter 2.
The context for these buzzwords was just to say the CG just wants to reborn as life forms in a different universe or smth, anyway.

 

[Teezar]

The OP does seem to make more sense than what we currently have.

Good to have you back boss.

 

[Catzlaflame]

Most of the time when yuri and darksmash say something it ends up being correct, and here both of them agree with the downgrade so list me as neutral on everything leaning towards agreement, to make sure I don’t appear like some1 who’s just arguing for the sake of the verse being stronk
tier 4 = stronk
But I still do have some questions for darksmash’s response:

“The reason they say that afterlife's existence proves that the world is "fictional" is quite clearly stated:

“If only humans can observe the world, then when humans are gone, the world will cease to exist. But if the same person that died can come back to life, that means that someone is controlling this world. Which means it isn’t real,” Yoshie said, and then rubbed her temples like she had a headache.

Afterlife's existence means death inside the world isn't real, and characters coming back implies someone is controlling it from outside, meaning the world isn't real but has an illusory meaning. Never once is it stated that Afterlife's existence proves the world is fictional because afterlife sees the world as fiction.”

So if I understand this correctly your saying that the r>f stuff is just the characters interpretation of fictional death, that since death in the real world is fake and that the world being real or not only depends on humanity observing it or not.

but it’s stated that this death does not exist within the afterlife;

“This was a world where they did not die and could not die” - chap 3 volume 13


Yet the afterlife is also fictional:

"If the world we lived in was fictional、then the afterlife is also fictional” - chap 3 volume 13

so essentially even without the “fictional death” we see the afterlife being fictional.
also it being “less real” isn’t exactly contradictory to the r>f, obviously if it was ONLY stated to be “less real” then it wouldn’t warrant r>f, but it can be “less real” and fiction at the same time. No?

@Darksmash

 

[Darksmash]

So if I understand this correctly your saying that the r>f stuff is just the characters interpretation of fictional death, that since death in the real world is fake and that the world being real or not only depends on humanity observing it or not.

What I wanted to say was that the factor that proved the world isn't real was death being illusory due to the existence of an afterlife. Fictional is kinda used in a metaphoric sense here. Basically if the characters don't have their free will and are being controlled by some outside force they would consider themselves as "fictional" since they have no free will. They basically go with the logic that the existence of an afterlife proves some god-like deity exists that is controlling the world.

also it being “less real” isn’t exactly contradictory to the r>f, obviously if it was ONLY stated to be “less real” then it wouldn’t warrant r>f, but it can be “less real” and fiction at the same time. No?

Wdym by this?

 

[Ningenron]

Wut

 

[Star_King_Veldanava]

Wut

Lu bilang ke orang asing pake bahasa Indonesia njirr

 

[Ningenron]

What language you two are speaking...

 

[Hasty12345]

What language you two are speaking...

Indonesia

Indonesian?

 

[Urshani]

how's the downgrade going

 

[Ningenron]

But why tho, I don't know anything about Indonesian language.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Lu sarkas apa gimana?

dgifdf sdfygsasdads aisdugagds?

 

[Lormac_CC]

Still waiting for DT, honestly I am leaning towards agreeing. If this gets accepted, it would be the biggest downgrade.

 

[Bernkastelll]

DT will be busy for around a week iirc according to his thread, he need to fix the schedule

 

[Urshani]

Still waiting for DT, honestly I am leaning towards agreeing. If this gets accepted, it would be the biggest downgrade.

DT?

 

[DemonKingAkuto]

DT?

DontTalkDT

 

[DemonKingAkuto]

Still waiting for DT, honestly I am leaning towards agreeing. If this gets accepted, it would be the biggest downgrade.

Also Akuto123 said he will respond in like 2 days or sum

 

[Urshani]

DontTalkDT

ah alright.

 

[Star_King_Veldanava]

Indonesian?

Sorry, Just forget it

 

[Saiyan40009]

starting this I do not know how much we can use the reality fiction implications since the verse uses too flowery from the base we know that the experiment was because they believed that if there is another life after death it is that this unreal world that already speaks of the verse for at least it has a strange way of seeing fiction reality now the statement dreams and its hierarchy is simply unusable since it was said by a character with little at all sanity who was simply throwing ideas and his own theories and to nail something more on the subject never becomes mentioning hierarchy of dreams by other characters not even of greater cosmic importance

 

[Saiyan40009]

almost infinity is not infinite and Akuto himself mentioned that he will make it a quantity. almost infinite

 

[Saiyan40009]

Second, life after death is never treated as something important. A device to travel between dimensions will allow you to get there. There is discrediting that rare notion. The only difference between the two is a barrier. the normal universe does not have

 

[Catzlaflame]

Wdym by this?

If I understood what you said correctly, you were saying that death being not real is what led to the “real world” being considered as fiction, and that it’s NOT THAT the real world is fiction but that because humanity’s lives in the real world are fake they just use the words “story” and “fiction” to better portray this,

but what Im saying is that, they’re lives can be fake just as you said, as well as be genuinely fictional. The 2 ideas can coexist, and to help the argument that it is actually fictional the real world is stated to be the creation of a higher being.

"To put it simply、this world is fake and we are nothing more than someone's creation、" carelessly explained Fujiko。

furthermore how would your argument justify the r>f things that are not stated but implied, like the implication that everything is bound to someone’s plot:

"Exactly。" Bouichirou nodded。 "That is undoubtedly your role。" "My role？So l have to work for the sake of someone's plot？Why？"

And the things like “main character” and “side characters”

“Yes。And that leads to a single conclusion。I get it。We're not the protagonist。" Brave was dumbfounded。 "That's right。" Bouichirou disinterestedly dug into the ground with his foot。 "And yet your role as a side character has yet to end

@Darksmash

 

[Catzlaflame]

edit:
(Volume 12 chapter 4)
(Volume 13 chapter 3

 

[Darksmash]

If I understood what you said correctly, you were saying that death being not real is what led to the “real world” being considered as fiction, and that it’s NOT THAT the real world is fiction but that because humanity’s lives in the real world are fake they just use the words “story” and “fiction” to better portray this,

but what Im saying is that, they’re lives can be fake just as you said, as well as be genuinely fictional. The 2 ideas can coexist, and to help the argument that it is actually fictional the real world is stated to be the creation of a higher being.

Those ideas can exist simultaneously yes, but I never said they can't. What I said was that the metaphoric interpretation itself is enough to call the world fictional. Hence we have no reason to assume that absolute highest and nonsensical interpretation that earth is fictional to afterlife, which is unsupported by the context of the story(calling afterlife a reflection of the original world plus saying they are the exact same aside from the presence of a boundary). Especially when this entire thread has already shown how metaphoric "story" and "fiction" are in Daimao.

Heck, even the past and time itself are considered "fictional"(volume 13 foreword).

Every choice we make is infected with the virus we call “stories”. Our own free will has nothing to do with it. People can’t perceive time objectively. Instead, they perceive it as a story.

It's pretty much the theme of the volume. Loss of free will, past already being set in motion etc=fiction. A single universe is said to have multiple stories, because stories represent lives of people.

“Correct. Only those who were present for it know what happened in history. And we weren’t there. Even if somebody just overwrote history entirely, we’d have no way to know.” “Then there’s no way of knowing the truth about anything!” Hiroshi shouted. “There is no such thing as truth. This whole world is a piece of fiction.”

(Volume 13 chapter 2)

Not being able to know the truth of the past invokes a reaction of calling the world fictional. Another example of the metaphoric usage, since they can't identify the truth they consider the past of the world an illusion etc.

Also I never said it wasn't the creation of a higher being. They just don't need to perceive the world as literal fiction for the verse to consider the world as fiction. Just controlling it is enough. That's where solar system level Akuto even comes from. He has Reality Warping on that scale at least.

furthermore how would your argument justify the r>f things that are not stated but implied, like the implication that everything is bound to someone’s plot:

Plot, Fate etc are the same thing. It doesn't contradict metaphoric usage etc. Following someone else's plot=they don't have free will=what I was arguing in the first place.

And the things like “main character” and “side characters”

Again, same thing. Oh and btw multiple main characters can exist in the same universe and their adventures are considered as different stories.

The gods of the outer universe were, you could say, their own main characters, with their own main stories. So multiple protagonists tried to advance their own stories within the same place. It may have been chaos, but there was no conflict. The reason for this was that it wasn’t just strong stories that were trying to take control, but even weak stories were included in this as well. The frustrating thing was that the strength of a story had nothing to do with its size.

(Volume 13 chapter 4)
Literally throughout the novel stories and fiction are used metaphorically but people only want to cherrypick the anti feats as "metaphor" for some reason. Meanwhile we don't have a single instance of quantification for the "Reality>Fiction" difference in the verse, or if it even entails ontological transcendence in context of the verse. While we have lots of counter examples.