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what tier do you accept then
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Demon King Daimao downgrade ig
- Thread starter Ningenron
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Darksmash
He/Him- 1,494
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I don't get this counter. The OP also elaborates how things outside the solar system are equivalent to things outside the universe, so I assume the intention was of arguing that going beyond the solar system won't just make the solar system fictional.
This is just another example of fiction being used metaphorically.
The reason they say that afterlife's existence proves that the world is "fictional" is quite clearly stated:
Afterlife's existence means death inside the world isn't real, and characters coming back implies someone is controlling it from outside, meaning the world isn't real but has an illusory meaning. Never once is it stated that Afterlife's existence proves the world is fictional because afterlife sees the world as fiction.
They even directly say that death(literally just a concept) inside that world is fictional:
It is quite clear that the factor that is proving the worlds are "fictional" is death being illusory, not afterlife being a higher layer. And the logical progression being that coming back from death proves someone is controlling the universe.
Because they are being treated as seperate worlds? If earth was fictional to afterlife it would have been part of it, not a seperate world. Not to mention, there isn't even actually a single statement calling afterlife transcendent even once. Death proving the world's fictionality has different context as shown above.
Controlling the world from outside the solar system=seeing it as fiction apparently, so guess it would be a hierarchy of solar systems. Anyway, that dream hierarchy was literally a hypothetical one off thing that was never mentioned again in the next volume and not even ascertained whether it is even part of the Cosmology or not.
Yet Akuto can create a low density story with him as a character and he can complete Akuto's story from inside this story.
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@Darksmash I’ll respond tmr morning I got to go to sleep
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Just a suggestion: it would probably be nicer if the statements are sourced, from what volume and chapter they came from. So that people can double-check it directly from the sauce material if they wanna.
Rabbit2002
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Wait is this Quote Valid?? It come from The Computer Gods's profile
The gods have a will of their own, but they do not possess a body.
That is why they do not possess thought processes centered on a body. They are a contradictory existence that thinks despite having no true form to think with. It is true they have computer circuits. However, no one knows how many circuits are needed before thought is born. All we know is that a will is born when enough circuits are brought together. You can think of it as similar to how we do not know where one’s will is located in the human brain. Their non-body focused thought processes leave them with no distinction between themselves and the outside world, and so they are able to think in terms of the infinite. I do not mean the mathematical concept of infinity. I mean an infinite degree of infinites. And this means they can arrive at the infinite past for living creatures. The bodiless gods can arrive at the thought processes of single-celled life forms. That is the same as the birth of life and the birth of thought. And thoughts themselves create a universe. Not a scientifically observable universe, mind you. There is a theory saying that this world could have been created five minutes ago and we can never prove otherwise if our memories are false. However, that theory only holds when one has a physical body. Bodiless thoughts invalidate that theory. In other words, the universe exists and time is absolutely irreversible.
That is why they do not possess thought processes centered on a body. They are a contradictory existence that thinks despite having no true form to think with. It is true they have computer circuits. However, no one knows how many circuits are needed before thought is born. All we know is that a will is born when enough circuits are brought together. You can think of it as similar to how we do not know where one’s will is located in the human brain. Their non-body focused thought processes leave them with no distinction between themselves and the outside world, and so they are able to think in terms of the infinite. I do not mean the mathematical concept of infinity. I mean an infinite degree of infinites. And this means they can arrive at the infinite past for living creatures. The bodiless gods can arrive at the thought processes of single-celled life forms. That is the same as the birth of life and the birth of thought. And thoughts themselves create a universe. Not a scientifically observable universe, mind you. There is a theory saying that this world could have been created five minutes ago and we can never prove otherwise if our memories are false. However, that theory only holds when one has a physical body. Bodiless thoughts invalidate that theory. In other words, the universe exists and time is absolutely irreversible.
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I have some work to do that I will reply to this in 1 or 2 days
PhantomØ4
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There’s a bunch of people who just vote to agree for the sake of downgrading widely known tier 1 verses and some even get a bit annoying at how little they try to hide their bias.
Same thing happened with A Wild Last Boss Appeared when people started complaining about how non-sensical the power elevation became when the author didn’t play by infinity rules.
Anyways, I think almost everyone who jumped right on to support the downgrade before any counter argument could be made did it say too early to count.
Same thing happened with A Wild Last Boss Appeared when people started complaining about how non-sensical the power elevation became when the author didn’t play by infinity rules.
Anyways, I think almost everyone who jumped right on to support the downgrade before any counter argument could be made did it say too early to count.
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I do think that's somewhat valid, but I don't think everyone who agreed with it before counter arguments were made should have their votes immediately taken out. In fact, with such a big downgrade, I don't think the number of votes should matter other than for show. It should be a discussion to get them to accurate tiering.
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Yeah similar to Umineko, it's better to discuss rather to just follow how many people agree or disagree.
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I absolutely agree.
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The meteor/Formless power didn't even fully surface wipe the earth....
Fair
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why must all the og tier 1s be nuked by the downgrade wave
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Yea, it's from Act 5, chapter 2.
The context for these buzzwords was just to say the CG just wants to reborn as life forms in a different universe or smth, anyway.
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Good to have you back boss.
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Most of the time when yuri and darksmash say something it ends up being correct, and here both of them agree with the downgrade so list me as neutral on everything leaning towards agreement, to make sure I don’t appear like some1 who’s just arguing for the sake of the verse being stronk
tier 4 = stronk
But I still do have some questions for darksmash’s response:
“The reason they say that afterlife's existence proves that the world is "fictional" is quite clearly stated:
So if I understand this correctly your saying that the r>f stuff is just the characters interpretation of fictional death, that since death in the real world is fake and that the world being real or not only depends on humanity observing it or not.
but it’s stated that this death does not exist within the afterlife;
“This was a world where they did not die and could not die” - chap 3 volume 13
Yet the afterlife is also fictional:
"If the world we lived in was fictional、then the afterlife is also fictional” - chap 3 volume 13
so essentially even without the “fictional death” we see the afterlife being fictional.
also it being “less real” isn’t exactly contradictory to the r>f, obviously if it was ONLY stated to be “less real” then it wouldn’t warrant r>f, but it can be “less real” and fiction at the same time. No?
@Darksmash
tier 4 = stronk
But I still do have some questions for darksmash’s response:
“The reason they say that afterlife's existence proves that the world is "fictional" is quite clearly stated:
Afterlife's existence means death inside the world isn't real, and characters coming back implies someone is controlling it from outside, meaning the world isn't real but has an illusory meaning. Never once is it stated that Afterlife's existence proves the world is fictional because afterlife sees the world as fiction.”
So if I understand this correctly your saying that the r>f stuff is just the characters interpretation of fictional death, that since death in the real world is fake and that the world being real or not only depends on humanity observing it or not.
but it’s stated that this death does not exist within the afterlife;
“This was a world where they did not die and could not die” - chap 3 volume 13
Yet the afterlife is also fictional:
"If the world we lived in was fictional、then the afterlife is also fictional” - chap 3 volume 13
so essentially even without the “fictional death” we see the afterlife being fictional.
also it being “less real” isn’t exactly contradictory to the r>f, obviously if it was ONLY stated to be “less real” then it wouldn’t warrant r>f, but it can be “less real” and fiction at the same time. No?
@Darksmash
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Darksmash
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What I wanted to say was that the factor that proved the world isn't real was death being illusory due to the existence of an afterlife. Fictional is kinda used in a metaphoric sense here. Basically if the characters don't have their free will and are being controlled by some outside force they would consider themselves as "fictional" since they have no free will. They basically go with the logic that the existence of an afterlife proves some god-like deity exists that is controlling the world.
Wdym by this?
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Lu bilang ke orang asing pake bahasa Indonesia njirr
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,357
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Indonesian?
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dgifdf sdfygsasdads aisdugagds?Lu sarkas apa gimana?
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DT will be busy for around a week iirc according to his thread, he need to fix the schedule
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DT?
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DontTalkDT
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Also Akuto123 said he will respond in like 2 days or sum
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ah alright.
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Sorry, Just forget it
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starting this I do not know how much we can use the reality fiction implications since the verse uses too flowery from the base we know that the experiment was because they believed that if there is another life after death it is that this unreal world that already speaks of the verse for at least it has a strange way of seeing fiction reality now the statement dreams and its hierarchy is simply unusable since it was said by a character with little at all sanity who was simply throwing ideas and his own theories and to nail something more on the subject never becomes mentioning hierarchy of dreams by other characters not even of greater cosmic importance
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almost infinity is not infinite and Akuto himself mentioned that he will make it a quantity. almost infinite
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Second, life after death is never treated as something important. A device to travel between dimensions will allow you to get there. There is discrediting that rare notion. The only difference between the two is a barrier. the normal universe does not have
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If I understood what you said correctly, you were saying that death being not real is what led to the “real world” being considered as fiction, and that it’s NOT THAT the real world is fiction but that because humanity’s lives in the real world are fake they just use the words “story” and “fiction” to better portray this,
but what Im saying is that, they’re lives can be fake just as you said, as well as be genuinely fictional. The 2 ideas can coexist, and to help the argument that it is actually fictional the real world is stated to be the creation of a higher being.
"To put it simply、this world is fake and we are nothing more than someone's creation、" carelessly explained Fujiko。
furthermore how would your argument justify the r>f things that are not stated but implied, like the implication that everything is bound to someone’s plot:
"Exactly。" Bouichirou nodded。 "That is undoubtedly your role。" "My role？So l have to work for the sake of someone's plot？Why？"
And the things like “main character” and “side characters”
“Yes。And that leads to a single conclusion。I get it。We're not the protagonist。" Brave was dumbfounded。 "That's right。" Bouichirou disinterestedly dug into the ground with his foot。 "And yet your role as a side character has yet to end
@Darksmash
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edit:
(Volume 12 chapter 4)
(Volume 13 chapter 3
(Volume 12 chapter 4)
(Volume 13 chapter 3
Darksmash
He/Him- 1,494
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Those ideas can exist simultaneously yes, but I never said they can't. What I said was that the metaphoric interpretation itself is enough to call the world fictional. Hence we have no reason to assume that absolute highest and nonsensical interpretation that earth is fictional to afterlife, which is unsupported by the context of the story(calling afterlife a reflection of the original world plus saying they are the exact same aside from the presence of a boundary). Especially when this entire thread has already shown how metaphoric "story" and "fiction" are in Daimao.
Heck, even the past and time itself are considered "fictional"(volume 13 foreword).
It's pretty much the theme of the volume. Loss of free will, past already being set in motion etc=fiction. A single universe is said to have multiple stories, because stories represent lives of people.
(Volume 13 chapter 2)
Not being able to know the truth of the past invokes a reaction of calling the world fictional. Another example of the metaphoric usage, since they can't identify the truth they consider the past of the world an illusion etc.
Also I never said it wasn't the creation of a higher being. They just don't need to perceive the world as literal fiction for the verse to consider the world as fiction. Just controlling it is enough. That's where solar system level Akuto even comes from. He has Reality Warping on that scale at least.
Plot, Fate etc are the same thing. It doesn't contradict metaphoric usage etc. Following someone else's plot=they don't have free will=what I was arguing in the first place.
Again, same thing. Oh and btw multiple main characters can exist in the same universe and their adventures are considered as different stories.
(Volume 13 chapter 4)
Literally throughout the novel stories and fiction are used metaphorically but people only want to cherrypick the anti feats as "metaphor" for some reason. Meanwhile we don't have a single instance of quantification for the "Reality>Fiction" difference in the verse, or if it even entails ontological transcendence in context of the verse. While we have lots of counter examples.
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