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Demon King Daimao downgrade ig

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No, just that we have to wait for him to come back, and should keep the responses to a minimum until then.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Devices that can sent you to the afterlife in any case don't disprove reality-fiction stuff.
Click to expand...
Totally approve of this, shinza for an example built a 1B(countless into 1B btw) throne straight from a 3D world
(This is the current info we have maybe retconned later on) but just saying devices from lower worlds that can move to higher dimensions or that can manipulate higher dimensions does not in any way disprove R>F
 
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Pain_to12 said:
Totally approve of this, shinza for an example built a 1B(countless into 1B btw) throne straight from a 3D world
Click to expand...
They didn't build shit. The Throne was literally made on accident. Obviously, the new light novel will likely clarify it, but it wasn't made on purpose from what I remember now.
Pain_to12 said:
(This is the current info we have maybe retconned later on) but just saying devices into higher dimensions or that can manipulate higher dimensions does not in any way disprove R>F
Click to expand...
This part I agree with, but just because they use a machine, doesn't mean the R>F is valid. It's a case-by-case scenario. DC uses machines that specifically alter one's size to the dimensionality of the place they're going to. Shinza has the Throne as some hyperdimensional "thing" that can't be accessed without drilling a hyperdimensional hole in reality, similar stuff. If Ichiban doesn't further clarify how this machine works, then it's not the best look on it's R>F
 
Tarang123 said:
They didn't build shit. The Throne was literally made on accident. Obviously, the new light novel will likely clarify it, but it wasn't made
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How did you miss the point by a mile??
The damn point was a 1B device came from a 3D world, whether it came by accident or on purpose I never said that in my post only said it was built from a 3D world
 
Pain_to12 said:
How did you miss the point by a mile??
The damn point was a 1B device came from a 3D world, whether it came by accident or on purpose I never said that in my post only said it was built from a 3D world
Click to expand...
Again, there was no point in bringing it up as it literally has a completely different origin from pretty much all other kinds of higher-d devices.
 
Tarang123 said:
Again, there was no point in bringing it up as it literally has a completely different origin from pretty much all other kinds of higher-d devices.
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It is an example.of higher D device coming from a 3D world so wdym?
I literally can never see your point
 
Pain_to12 said:
It is an example.of higher D device coming from a 3D world so wdym?
I literally can never see your point
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Yeah, but it was always higher-d to begin with. Not some machine to travel to higher dimensional realms lmfao. You missing my point isn't my fault.
 
Tarang123 said:
Yeah, but it was always higher-d to begin with. Not some machine to travel to higher dimensional realms lmfao. You missing my point isn't my fault.
Click to expand...
I never said it was a machine to travel.to higher D, please try and read to comprehension we know you are knowledgeable about shinza you don't have to flaunt that
Pain_to12 said:
Totally approve of this, shinza for an example built a 1B(countless into 1B btw) throne straight from a 3D world
(This is the current info we have maybe retconned later on) but just saying devices from lower worlds that can move to higher dimensions or that can manipulate higher dimensions does not in any way disprove R>F
Click to expand...
That was the point devices built from.lower worlds that are built from lower worlds manipulating higher D it them being higher D themselves.
And here is your reply


Tarang123 said:
They didn't build shit. The Throne was literally made on accident. Obviously, the new light novel will likely clarify it, but it wasn't made
Click to expand...
Like how tf does that correlate I never said they built anything on purpose the point is they actually built.it and it was on purpose btw, mithra literally built.it to keep Naraka out, it not being on purpose has been retconned, so in that point you are wrong

Now stop tagging me unnecessarily, it's derailing
 
We still need a summary post for DontTalk, and for the rest of you to stop spamming replies, as this thread will be put on pause until he comes back in over a week from now.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. Please quote the relevant posts.
Click to expand...

Darksmash said:
Only the text that tells the story has to be true. In Daimao time itself is perceived as stories, so the difference between the past and memories is trivial. When Hiroshi asked Akuto to create a low density story for him he later states that the world just came into existence around the time where the story was supposed to start and everyone had false memories of the past. This was also done by rebuilding the afterlife. Clearly if Akuto just needed to create the story and had the ability to create them seperately he had no incentive to reset the afterlife. And if the story contained everything mentioned in the text then the past should have been included.

Hence, being an isekai doesn't mean the other world has to necessarily exist inside it.


I think an important factor to take into consideration when making sense of this is that multiple stories can exist within the same instance of the universe created by Akuto. Each with their own main characters and stuff. That's what the "chaos" here was talking about.


Let's not talk about the fact that the difference between two layers is never stated in Daimao and remains vague to the end.


It can look like a lower layer, but that's not the same thing because while it can look like a lower layer the actual scale would obviously be infinitely higher. Instead here they are saying there is absolutely no difference between the two. They don't even mention any ontological difference while literally calling both of them fictional.


I already gave the example of Hiroshi's story above and how time in Daimao is perceived as stories. If the memories of the people state that their current world is an isekai then it would be true even without said world having to necessarily exist.



??? What

Hmm, alright I will concede this particular point. Although this also counters your argument about the law of identity in the story being some kind of self insert.


Except it said she was a story from Hiroshi's perspective. And this was an argument to show how the usage of stories is metaphoric in the first place.

Also, as far as I am aware the "dreams of the storyteller" thing was a hypothetical vague unelaborated one off thing from Volume 12 and isn't how stories work in Volume 13, where multiple stories with different main characters can exist in the same space. That isn't possible if each story was a different dream on itself.
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Shuradou said:
It would matter if the thread passes.

The first one is from "Near infinite" statement which I didn't count for obvious reasons. The offical translation of that part of the statement doesn't say the same thing.

But anyways, I'm gonna concede to this cuz them being infinite or not would not affect the downgrade

The OP already showed that he's not creating worlds or anything but just rebuilding the afterlife over and over after each time while inserting fake memories.

Well, Neither do I can confirm anything. But again, it doesn't affect the rest of the downgrade.

I mean, the author himself agrees with me.....so?:
0.jpg



The raw, the translation. Here you go.

Why so? As far I'm concerned nothing indicates otherwise


Why would it be death in a literal sense? for all we know about the possibilities is just Him basically inserting fake memories.

Yes, same way he was participating in activities in the afterlife for like three chapters.

Fair enough.

Ah, you meant that.


Because it won't make any sense scaling wise if we take it as literal.

Here an example:

both Formless power and Akuto scales above the computer Gods whom supposedly can "create universes known as virtual alternate dimensions, which are infinitely vast, 4th dimensional spaces"

But the problem is, the feats of the characters that scales above them are subpar and not even remotely comparable. Here some examples:

Formless power is literally just a 20Km wide meteor that failed to even fully wipe the earth:

.

.

.

.

.


To make it even worse, it can be repelled by meteor level power:

Then we got Marine (Ranked as low 2-C on his profile fyi) being disparate Against a missile:

And Akuto breaking a bunch of walls was Abnormal:

Marine with the Formless Power was scared of something as weak as this:

we also have everyone (Akuto is included) being so hopeless Against the Meteor.

.

.

.

.

.

So hopeless that they needed to escape to the space:

.

So, yes, it's definitely inconsistent.

The fact that finite energy can make a dimension that is "supposedly" infinity to function...?

The quote literally says they called it 4-D Cuz of muh complex topic so that most people just decided to called it 4D. nothing more nothing less.

It's not really that hard to get.


I've read both of them before multiple times in fact.

Even if it "doesn’t", Darksmash argument still stands.

Also, If Akuto wanted to test his possibilities and Afterlife truly existed on a higher plane of existence, why wouldn't he just test them on the lower plane of existence? Since he supposedly sees that as fiction from afterlife testing out his possibilities on that level of existence would be much more easier and efficient, Instead he was rebuilding the afterlife to test them one by one.

You said these stories are not on a lesser plane than Akuto, which is wrong considering it's from the lower story world that Akuto created for Hiroshi to end his story.

The time passage being the same between the afterlife and the main world does not suggest that?

.

the time passage between universe flows the same does not suggest that?



Not quite sure what are you saying but sure.


I'd rather picking a statement that comes from Act 13 and not one from act 12 from a journal that is just a hypothetical speculation not supported by the Story. Unlike this one:

Which is supported by WoG itself:
1.jpg


They literally were invading Akuto personal space before that:

One of the Gods is literally what Akuto becomes later on:

Hell, even Her will can be exceeded by "Fiction":



Above.
Click to expand...
 
Pain_to12 said:
I never said it was a machine to travel.to higher D, please try and read to comprehension we know you are knowledgeable about shinza you don't have to flaunt that
Click to expand...
And another fanfic by you. I never said I was flaunting it. I was just pointing out that what you were saying had practically no similarity to Ichiban's case or even DC's case. My point was that it might has well have not been brought up at all.

Pain_to12 said:
That was the point devices built from.lower worlds that are built from lower worlds manipulating higher D it them being higher D themselves.
And here is your reply
Click to expand...
The point was that it didn't come from a 3D world. It was just a side-affect from their influences. I'll try finding the specific thing from the VFB that says this.

Q: 座のシステムについてですが、「座をつくった」という表現があったと記憶していますが、その始まりはどのような発想から成ったのですか?

A: 星間戦争時代、いわゆるワープに関わる理論から「時間跳躍」や「宇宙の結合」という発想のもとに偶然生まれてしまった副産物という設定です。
Click to expand...
Of course, even if it "came from a 3D/4D world", it was never 3D/4D, nor was that it's purpose in the first place. It's purpose was as a destination or the "thing" used to rule Creation and paint over it with their law, hence why I pointed out that it might as well not have been brought up in the first place.

Pain_to12 said:
Like how tf does that correlate I never said they built anything on purpose the point is they actually built.it and it was on purpose btw, mithra literally built.it to keep Naraka out, it not being on purpose has been retconned, so in that point you are wrong
Click to expand...
Mithra didn't build it, tho. Mithra fused Naraka (as in, the 5) into it's innermost layer, where they basically faded off into obscurity. Then, using the Throne and the power of Hadou Taikyoku she remade the world in a way where it would prevent the Origin Coordinate's curse of immortality, which was an issue in the pre-throne era. Also, show where it was retconned cause no details have been given. At least, nothing substantial. Yes, Mithra used the Throne, which was already there, which is what the Aditya LN will probably clarify or retcon, to put Naraka into it, making them an integral part of its innermost layer

Pain_to12 said:
Now stop tagging me unnecessarily, it's derailing
Click to expand...
My apologies if you were upset, but I had to call it out cause I just disagreed with what you said. Even then, the derailing didn't have anything to do with the downgrade, nor did it help either side in any substantial way, so we should probably stop.
 
Tarang123 said:
And another fanfic by you. I never said I was flaunting it. I was just pointing out that what you were saying had practically no similarity to Ichiban's case or even DC's case. My point was that it might has well have not been brought up at all.


The point was that it didn't come from a 3D world. It was just a side-affect from their influences. I'll try finding the specific thing from the VFB that says this.


Of course, even if it "came from a 3D/4D world", it was never 3D/4D, nor was that it's purpose in the first place. It's purpose was as a destination or the "thing" used to rule Creation and paint over it with their law, hence why I pointed out that it might as well not have been brought up in the first place.


Mithra didn't build it, tho. Mithra fused Naraka (as in, the 5) into it's innermost layer, where they basically faded off into obscurity. Then, using the Throne and the power of Hadou Taikyoku she remade the world in a way where it would prevent the Origin Coordinate's curse of immortality, which was an issue in the pre-throne era. Also, show where it was retconned cause no details have been given. At least, nothing substantial. Yes, Mithra used the Throne, which was already there, which is what the Aditya LN will probably clarify or retcon, to put Naraka into it, making them an integral part of its innermost layer


My apologies if you were upset, but I had to call it out cause I just disagreed with what you said. Even then, the derailing didn't have anything to do with the downgrade, nor did it help either side in any substantial way, so we should probably stop.
Click to expand...
OK.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Yeah, I haven't found the time to spend several hours writing replies to everything the last days and, as I said a week ago, I definitely won't have time from tomorrow onwards.

If someone can summarize the absolutely most important points I, in particular, should reply to I will try to get that done at least.

Devices that can sent you to the afterlife in any case don't disprove reality-fiction stuff. Like, in general. It's not like you can simply fly from the living world to the afterlife.

It's not even like the technologies are very strange for doing that. The coffin uses the inherent relationship between the realities in having someone first die and then resurrecting them. The afterlife is the afterlife, after all. Using the natural process to get there and back makes sense.

Meanwhile, the time travel technology even uses the fact that reality is a story to work, according to how Yamato explained it.
Click to expand...
In summary, he claims that the extra-universal gods pose a danger to Tloi and Akuto, and that Akuto's battle with them and winning and defeating refutes the fiction-real hierarchy
 
DontTalkDT said:
Was hoping those could be summarized a little more, but ok. Replying to those will take a few hours of work, as it's a lot of points, so we will seen when I can finish that.
Click to expand...
No problem. Thank you for helping out.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Devices that can sent you to the afterlife in any case don't disprove reality-fiction stuff. Like, in general. It's not like you can simply fly from the living world to the afterlife.
Click to expand...
Just another supportive evidence to show the afterlife is just a different/another dimension, not a higher one.
DontTalkDT said:
It's not even like the technologies are very strange for doing that. The coffin uses the inherent relationship between the realities in having someone first die and then resurrecting them. The afterlife is the afterlife, after all. Using the natural process to get there and back makes sense.
Click to expand...
????? The coffin and the rope are a completely different things....?:
She had flipped through more pages and found records of other items: the Stone Bowl of Buddha, the Robe of the Fire Rat, the Dragon Neck Jewel, and the Swallow Cowrie.

“They were all developed based on an old legend, weren’t they?”

She had looked through them in turn, but she had been surprised to find some she had already seen.

The Stone Bowl of Buddha and the Dragon Neck Jewel were the coffin that had resurrected Akuto and Peterhausen respectively.
Click to expand...

Pain_to12 said:
Totally approve of this, shinza for an example built a 1B(countless into 1B btw) throne straight from a 3D world
(This is the current info we have maybe retconned later on) but just saying devices from lower worlds that can move to higher dimensions or that can manipulate higher dimensions does not in any way disprove R>F
Click to expand...
Pain_to12 said:
The damn point was a 1B device came from a 3D world, whether it came by accident or on purpose I never said that in my post only said it was built from a 3D world
Click to expand...
"It comes from a 3-D world thus its not higher dimensional" is not part of any argument here though.....?
 
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After rereading Ichiban a bit, the supporting side definitely makes a lot more sense.

Even ignoring the universes part, it kinda feels like we jumped on the first vague High 1-B looking statements and went with them without taking into account the verse mechanics and view on fiction stuff.

Could lead to some precisions on our R/F interaction page, like for DBH where the real world isn't really transcendant to the fictional one.
 
AKUTO123 said:
I will continue to present my arguments and points throughout the week, but I would like the discussion to continue until DT writes its final words. I think Dont Talk's information and comments are gold for the subject.
Click to expand...
Btw how About Solar System size Universe?
 
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